A huge flaw in christianity....

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="Fundai"]

What if, for example, a Jew, lives a saintly life.

Gives their possesions to the poor, Volunteers with the comunity, Suports their friends, people they meet, e.t.c.

And does it all because it just makes them feel right??? It is what they Know is right.

Your saying he is going to hell?

He might not go to heaven, But I think Purgatory isn't out of the question, hmmm???

Fundai

Well sadly yes. I person who does good works for anything but for the glory of God through Jesus Christ won't be accepted into the kingdom of Heaven. It is hard to grasp I know, why would God send such a "good person" who does good things to hell? Well because like I said before it is through faith in Jesus not through good works that you are accepted into Heaven. Its something I'm still tryin to understand.

Also about purgatory, in my opinion I believe that purgatory existed before Jesus rose from death, but since Jesus has risen and defeated death purgatory is no more because during the 3 days that Jesus' body was in the tomb he went down to Purgatory to judge everyone that was there and took some to Heaven and some to Hell. This issue is still debated among theologians but tihs is my take on it.

Well now we have entered a point in this debate that depends entirely upon what you and your faith believe...

If your taught/believe that only by knowing Jesus can you be freed from sin, then you'd obviously take your view...

If you were taught/ believe something else, then of course you'd believe something else.

I believe that Jesus's becoming Human, Dieing, and rising restored Gods Conection with man, and Made it possible for sins to be forgiven, and for there to be life after death. Wether or not that means that everyone can now be saved is up to debate.

Just out of Curiosity, what denomination do you belong to???

I'm Catholic BTW.

And i can't say i believe what you do about Purgatory. People are still sinning, and they will still need that cleansing period before they can enter into Gods presence in Heaven.

Just like to add, that if a person somehow didn't sin enough in life to break their relationship with God, So they wouldn't HAVE to recieve reconciliation, what could stop them from entering Heaven?

I am non-denominational, I call myself purely Christian.

and what you said about how people are still sinning, so they will still need that cleansing period before they can enter into heaven; that sounds alot like having to repent over and over of your sins, this sounds like sacrificing to God in the Old Testament to atone for your sins. This is not required anymore since Jesus is the ultimate cleanser you only need to accept Him into your life only once.

I agree that it's a flaw. You may find some christians who believe that infants go to Heaven if they die; the Bible doesn't address the fate of infants, as far as I know.

dracula_16

It isnt a flaw, since the Bible never says that people who dont believe will automatically go to hell.

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="stanleycup98"]

Here is one of the biggest flaws I see with that belief: so everyone who lived before Jesus is going to hell? Modern humans have been around for approximately 200,000 years, homo sapiens for 500,000 years. Jesus has been known for 2,000 years. So all humans who were alive in those 498,000 years went to hell? Well, serves those cavemen right I guess.

sSubZerOo

Well before Jesus, there was no Hell. There is not a mention of Hell in the Old Testament. Instead there was a purgatory, a holding place for dead spirits. Nobody went to heaven or hell in the time before Jesus. Only until Jesus died and rose again were human spirits sent to Heaven or Hell.

Technically speaking if we actually look at religious belief no one is in heaven or hell right now. Correct me if I am wrong, but that only occurs with the second coming of Christ where the dead are ressurected and the faithful go to heaven with him.. While the earth plunges into hell. Afterall thats why they outlawed the cremation of bodies because they believed that a body must be buried to wait for the coming of Jesus again.

I don't know enough to make a statement. I didn't know about the outlawing of cremating bodies, who did that?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

Well before Jesus, there was no Hell. There is not a mention of Hell in the Old Testament. Instead there was a purgatory, a holding place for dead spirits. Nobody went to heaven or hell in the time before Jesus. Only until Jesus died and rose again were human spirits sent to Heaven or Hell.

GameGuy642003

Technically speaking if we actually look at religious belief no one is in heaven or hell right now. Correct me if I am wrong, but that only occurs with the second coming of Christ where the dead are ressurected and the faithful go to heaven with him.. While the earth plunges into hell. Afterall thats why they outlawed the cremation of bodies because they believed that a body must be buried to wait for the coming of Jesus again.

I don't know enough to make a statement. I didn't know about the outlawing of cremating bodies, who did that?

The Catholic Church and Charlamagne during the Middle Ages.. Cremation was a pagen practice, and I believe thats how people originally believed it.. That when you die, nothing happens into.. Its only when Jesus comes back to his second coming are they ressurected and you either go to heaven or stay on Earth which plumets into hell more or less. This idea of instantly going to heaven or hell is to my understanding modern day.. Only reason why I see it changed is Jesus has taken such a long time in coming back, we have these Biblical apocalyspes believed by countless followers to happen every generaiton of theirs.

[QUOTE="Fundai"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

Well sadly yes. I person who does good works for anything but for the glory of God through Jesus Christ won't be accepted into the kingdom of Heaven. It is hard to grasp I know, why would God send such a "good person" who does good things to hell? Well because like I said before it is through faith in Jesus not through good works that you are accepted into Heaven. Its something I'm still tryin to understand.

Also about purgatory, in my opinion I believe that purgatory existed before Jesus rose from death, but since Jesus has risen and defeated death purgatory is no more because during the 3 days that Jesus' body was in the tomb he went down to Purgatory to judge everyone that was there and took some to Heaven and some to Hell. This issue is still debated among theologians but tihs is my take on it.

GameGuy642003

Well now we have entered a point in this debate that depends entirely upon what you and your faith believe...

If your taught/believe that only by knowing Jesus can you be freed from sin, then you'd obviously take your view...

If you were taught/ believe something else, then of course you'd believe something else.

I believe that Jesus's becoming Human, Dieing, and rising restored Gods Conection with man, and Made it possible for sins to be forgiven, and for there to be life after death. Wether or not that means that everyone can now be saved is up to debate.

Just out of Curiosity, what denomination do you belong to???

I'm Catholic BTW.

And i can't say i believe what you do about Purgatory. People are still sinning, and they will still need that cleansing period before they can enter into Gods presence in Heaven.

Just like to add, that if a person somehow didn't sin enough in life to break their relationship with God, So they wouldn't HAVE to recieve reconciliation, what could stop them from entering Heaven?

I am non-denominational, I call myself purely Christian.

and what you said about how people are still sinning, so they will still need that cleansing period before they can enter into heaven; that sounds alot like having to repent over and over of your sins, this sounds like sacrificing to God in the Old Testament to atone for your sins. This is not required anymore since Jesus is the ultimate cleanser you only need to accept Him into your life only once.

I'd love to say I agree with you, but Accepting Jesus without acting on it won't get you to heaven, though you might argue that that means your not fully accepting him.

You need purgatory so that you could be cleansed and prepared to meet God, who is the most perfectly Holy being. yes, it does sound quite abit like The Old testament sacrificial rites though.

These religious threads always hit a wall though, because it usually only comes down to what you believe.

No, only a person who places his faith in Jesus Christ will be saved - even those who have never heard the name. That said, why else do you think Christianity seeks to do foreign mission-work? Simply put, we do not wish for the world to go to hell.mindstorm

ahhh Gotta love being a Liberal Protestant

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

I am non-denominational, I call myself purely Christian.

and what you said about how people are still sinning, so they will still need that cleansing period before they can enter into heaven; that sounds alot like having to repent over and over of your sins, this sounds like sacrificing to God in the Old Testament to atone for your sins. This is not required anymore since Jesus is the ultimate cleanser you only need to accept Him into your life only once.

Fundai

I'd love to say I agree with you, but Accepting Jesus without acting on it won't get you to heaven, though you might argue that that means your not fully accepting him.

You need purgatory so that you could be cleansed and prepared to meet God, who is the most perfectly Holy being. yes, it does sound quite abit like The Old testament sacrificial rites though.

These religious threads always hit a wall though, because it usually only comes down to what you believe.

But remember what I said about accepting Jesus is all that is required, the good works come after, the good works are a product of the faith.

and yes these threads never end on a good note, there are no face to face conversations it's the internet screen that keeps these conversations from being meaningful.

[QUOTE="Fundai"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

I am non-denominational, I call myself purely Christian.

and what you said about how people are still sinning, so they will still need that cleansing period before they can enter into heaven; that sounds alot like having to repent over and over of your sins, this sounds like sacrificing to God in the Old Testament to atone for your sins. This is not required anymore since Jesus is the ultimate cleanser you only need to accept Him into your life only once.

GameGuy642003

I'd love to say I agree with you, but Accepting Jesus without acting on it won't get you to heaven, though you might argue that that means your not fully accepting him.

You need purgatory so that you could be cleansed and prepared to meet God, who is the most perfectly Holy being. yes, it does sound quite abit like The Old testament sacrificial rites though.

These religious threads always hit a wall though, because it usually only comes down to what you believe.

But remember what I said about accepting Jesus is all that is required, the good works come after, the good works are a product of the faith.

and yes these threads never end on a good note, there are no face to face conversations it's the internet screen that keeps these conversations from being meaningful.

Well it seems the discussion has gone

Just whish there was one religion thread where everyone agreed on something... But then it wouldn't really be a religion thread, would it?

it says numerous times in the bible every man will be judged off his works. Bin Laden will be judged, and obviously will go to hell from his works. The millions who weren't reached and never knew about God aren't going to hell, they will be judged like everyone else.mohfrontline

Let us all got to hell!

1/2 for not believing, 1/2 for misunderstanding the wordtherefore offending God!

[QUOTE="mohfrontline"]it says numerous times in the bible every man will be judged off his works. Bin Laden will be judged, and obviously will go to hell from his works. The millions who weren't reached and never knew about God aren't going to hell, they will be judged like everyone else.mr_poodles123

He never said anything like that. :|

[QUOTE="mr_poodles123"][QUOTE="mohfrontline"]it says numerous times in the bible every man will be judged off his works. Bin Laden will be judged, and obviously will go to hell from his works. The millions who weren't reached and never knew about God aren't going to hell, they will be judged like everyone else.Silverbond

He never said anything like that. :|

There are so many flaws in every religion.

No, only a person who places his faith in Jesus Christ will be saved - even those who have never heard the name. That said, why else do you think Christianity seeks to do foreign mission-work? Simply put, we do not wish for the world to go to hell.mindstorm

He's not on earth anymore, that's the good thing. Wherever he is now, I doubt he's terrorizing.LustForSoul

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Also of note, those who have heard clearly heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have rejected it will possibly receive a more severe punishment than the person who has never heard. The text of Scripture clearly states that people such as myself who wish to teach these things will held accountable for far more than the person who has never heard. For those who are trusted with much, much is expected.Planeforger

By that token, wouldn't spreading Christianity to places with other faiths (the vast majority of the people in the world) actually make things worse for most of those people?

I mean, if the people of some remote nation had led great and moral lives under their own indigenous belief systems, they'd normally probably go to hell for being born in the wrong place (if Christianity turns out to be real). With the intervention of missionaries, they've now got the choice of either abandoning their previous ways of life, or be doomed to an even worse fate for rejecting Christianity...which isn't much of a choice.

As an alternative to that, what if they had a religion which also believed that rejection was worse than ignorance? They've now got an impossible choice between two completely valid religions, the consequences of which are much worse, all because they'd recently been taught all about Christianity.

Alternately, if the Christian God isn't that harsh and doesn't punish people for ignorance, then it would be in missionaries' best interests to never tell anyone about Christianity...since at least then all good people regardless of faith might have a fair shot at going to Heaven. Under this method, once you start spreading the word, good people who believe in their own religions end up paying the price.

Astounding logic, that was a nice read.

Meh, Hell doesn't sound so bad imo. It's where all the cool people are.
Can you imagine chilling in some Hellish strip club with Sinatra,Cobain,Churchill, etc....

"Flaw" is christianity's middle name. The thing is that beliefs tend to vary between christians (even of the same denomination) and many aren't very religious in the sense that they may believe but not attend church regularly or pray very often so beliefs on things like which people will go to heaven and hell tend to vary from christian to christian.

Just believe what you want, the idea that a god will punish those who refuse to believe or that are completely unaware seems odd to me after hearing so many christians talking about a loving and forgiving god. The concept of a vengeful god seems to often be used as a scare tactic for believers to continue to believe and those that are taught of christianity to believe or they will be punished by some god that is at the same time supposed to love and forgive you; while you're burning in hell that is.

I don't believe in a god or an afterlife and i was raised as a christian so if there is a god who punishes those who choose not to believe then so be it.

God doesn't send people to Hell. Our sinful nature is what leads us to Hell. Basically Hell is our default setting.

Imagine that you are floating on a log going down a river and there is a waterfall at the end that will lead to certain death. God is on the shore of the river and throws you a rope. The rope is a metaphor for Jesus. You have a choice. You can grab and accept the rope and be pulled to safety or you can continue to drift down the river over the waterfall. It's your choice. God isn't pushing you over the waterfall.

God doesn't send people to Hell. Our sinful nature is what leads us to Hell. Basically Hell is our default setting.

Imagine that you are floating on a log going down a river and there is a waterfall at the end that will lead to certain death. God is on the shore of the river and throws you a rope. The rope is a metaphor for Jesus. You have a choice. You can grab and accept the rope and be pulled to safety or you can continue to drift down the river over the waterfall. It's your choice. God isn't pushing you over the waterfall.

fbstar57

Why does religion feel the need to threaten people? It's not enough to be a good person, you also have to accept the word of 'insert specific god here'.

[QUOTE="fbstar57"]

God doesn't send people to Hell. Our sinful nature is what leads us to Hell. Basically Hell is our default setting.

Imagine that you are floating on a log going down a river and there is a waterfall at the end that will lead to certain death. God is on the shore of the river and throws you a rope. The rope is a metaphor for Jesus. You have a choice. You can grab and accept the rope and be pulled to safety or you can continue to drift down the river over the waterfall. It's your choice. God isn't pushing you over the waterfall.

tenaka2

Why does religion feel the need to threaten people? It's not enough to be a good person, you also have to accept the word of 'insert specific god here'.

One of my favourite summaries

[QUOTE="fbstar57"]

God doesn't send people to Hell. Our sinful nature is what leads us to Hell. Basically Hell is our default setting.

Imagine that you are floating on a log going down a river and there is a waterfall at the end that will lead to certain death. God is on the shore of the river and throws you a rope. The rope is a metaphor for Jesus. You have a choice. You can grab and accept the rope and be pulled to safety or you can continue to drift down the river over the waterfall. It's your choice. God isn't pushing you over the waterfall.

tenaka2

Why does religion feel the need to threaten people? It's not enough to be a good person, you also have to accept the word of 'insert specific god here'.

That's not a threat. It's completely your choice. This was just a simple illustration to show that God isn't straight up sending people to Hell. If you're a good person that's great. This world needs more good people. If you don't choose to follow Jesus that's just simply your choice. I'm not going to attack you if you don't believe. I wish that all would believe but that definitely will never happen. Christians are supposed to love people which is something that I wish they would do more. So whether you believe or not it would be awesome if you just did your best to be a good person and people should love you either way. But if you have any questions be sure to ask.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="fbstar57"]

God doesn't send people to Hell. Our sinful nature is what leads us to Hell. Basically Hell is our default setting.

Imagine that you are floating on a log going down a river and there is a waterfall at the end that will lead to certain death. God is on the shore of the river and throws you a rope. The rope is a metaphor for Jesus. You have a choice. You can grab and accept the rope and be pulled to safety or you can continue to drift down the river over the waterfall. It's your choice. God isn't pushing you over the waterfall.

fbstar57

Why does religion feel the need to threaten people? It's not enough to be a good person, you also have to accept the word of 'insert specific god here'.

That's not a threat. It's completely your choice. This was just a simple illustration to show that God isn't straight up sending people to Hell. If you're a good person that's great. This world needs more good people. If you don't choose to follow Jesus that's just simply your choice. I'm not going to attack you if you don't believe. I wish that all would believe but that definitely will never happen. Christians are supposed to love people which is something that I wish they would do more. So whether you believe or not it would be awesome if you just did your best to be a good person and people should love you either way. But if you have any questions be sure to ask.

You left out the bit that good person or not I shall spend eternity in the fires of hell.

[QUOTE="fbstar57"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Why does religion feel the need to threaten people? It's not enough to be a good person, you also have to accept the word of 'insert specific god here'.

tenaka2

That's not a threat. It's completely your choice. This was just a simple illustration to show that God isn't straight up sending people to Hell. If you're a good person that's great. This world needs more good people. If you don't choose to follow Jesus that's just simply your choice. I'm not going to attack you if you don't believe. I wish that all would believe but that definitely will never happen. Christians are supposed to love people which is something that I wish they would do more. So whether you believe or not it would be awesome if you just did your best to be a good person and people should love you either way. But if you have any questions be sure to ask.

You left out the bit that good person or not I shall spend eternity in the fires of hell.

Unfortunately the Bible does teach that all are on a path towards Hell. But it also teaches that there is a way to escape that by acknowledging that you're not perfect and accepting that Jesus sacrificed himself for you and died on the cross and rose again conquering death and allowing all to go to Heaven. And bye all I literally mean all. You don't need to live a perfect life. Nobody is perfect. If you're a homosexual you don't automatically go to Hell. If you're a liar you don't automatically go to Hell. If you have sex or get drunk or any other thing that you hear usually preached that are supposedly horrible one way ticket to Hell things don't sent you straight to Hell. The Bible isn't meant to be a fire and brimstone message. It's meant to be about faith, hope, and love. Accepting Jesus is a choice. It's not forced on you and you don't have to accept Him. But Jesus makes it possible to completely avoid Hell.

He's not on earth anymore, that's the good thing. Wherever he is now, I doubt he's terrorizing.LustForSoul

did you know more innocentpeople have been killed in the 'war on terror' than by Osama?

This is just one of too many flaws to count when it comes to Christianity.Messiahbolical-

[QUOTE="Messiahbolical-"]This is just one of too many flaws to count when it comes to Christianity.fbstar57

No, only a person who places his faith in Jesus Christ will be saved - even those who have never heard the name.mindstorm

No, only a person who places his faith in Jesus Christ will be saved - even those who have never heard the name. That said, why else do you think Christianity seeks to do foreign mission-work? Simply put, we do not wish for the world to go to hell.mindstorm

thats a convenient excuse, so if someone was living on the other side of the world when religion started to brainwash everyone they would go to hell for living to far? sounds like a fair god to me ._.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]No, only a person who places his faith in Jesus Christ will be saved - even those who have never heard the name. That said, why else do you think Christianity seeks to do foreign mission-work? Simply put, we do not wish for the world to go to hell.Ninja-Hippo

Ok, so here is my logic:

People who do not know about God, do not go to hell because they have no choice about what they are taught.

Osama bin laden was never taught about god, so does that mean that he is going to heaven?

mr_poodles123

How on Earth can you make a statement like this? :lol:

Ok, so here is my logic:

People who do not know about God, do not go to hell because they have no choice about what they are taught.

Osama bin laden was never taught about god, so does that mean that he is going to heaven?

mr_poodles123

[QUOTE="mr_poodles123"]

Ok, so here is my logic:

People who do not know about God, do not go to hell because they have no choice about what they are taught.

Osama bin laden was never taught about god, so does that mean that he is going to heaven?

lowkey254

cant tell if serious...

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="mr_poodles123"]

Ok, so here is my logic:

People who do not know about God, do not go to hell because they have no choice about what they are taught.

Osama bin laden was never taught about god, so does that mean that he is going to heaven?

chaoscougar1

cant tell if serious...

Scary part is that I think he is serious.

[QUOTE="chaoscougar1"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] He, as a Muslim, knew who God is. If you do not accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior then hell awaits.tenaka2

cant tell if serious...

Scary part is that I think he is serious.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="chaoscougar1"]

cant tell if serious...

lowkey254

Scary part is that I think he is serious.

I would try and give a response to that but I fear your horse is so high you can hardly see your screen nevermind making out the text.

If you do not accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior then hell awaits. lowkey254

Ok, so here is my logic:

People who do not know about God, do not go to hell because they have no choice about what they are taught.

Osama bin laden was never taught about god, so does that mean that he is going to heaven?

mr_poodles123

Actually TC...the flaw in christianity is the same flaw in every religion..If you dont believe in their way you are doomed. Pretty ignorant way of living if you ask me..Let others decide what you should and shouldnt believe. I guess its easier to have someone else do your thinking for you instead of YOU thinking for yourself..

ALSO TC...Im saying "YOU" and its not directed at you..Its just "YOU" in general..

Actually TC...the flaw in christianity is the same flaw in every religion..If you dont believe in their way you are doomed. Pretty ignorant way of living if you ask me..Let others decide what you should and shouldnt believe. I guess its easier to have someone else do your thinking for you instead of YOU thinking for yourself..

ALSO TC...Im saying "YOU" and its not directed at you..Its just "YOU" in general..

VanDammFan

How is that a flaw? And do you seriously know every religion to say "in every religion"?

[QUOTE="VanDammFan"]

Actually TC...the flaw in christianity is the same flaw in every religion..If you dont believe in their way you are doomed. Pretty ignorant way of living if you ask me..Let others decide what you should and shouldnt believe. I guess its easier to have someone else do your thinking for you instead of YOU thinking for yourself..

ALSO TC...Im saying "YOU" and its not directed at you..Its just "YOU" in general..

Victorious_Fize

How is that a flaw? And do you seriously know every religion to say "in every religion"?

A FLAW is a flaw..I stand by what I said...AND yes...EVERY RELIGION has its god and its beliefs..Thats kind of how it works..Dont pick apart things...just take it as a whole.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="VanDammFan"]

Actually TC...the flaw in christianity is the same flaw in every religion..If you dont believe in their way you are doomed. Pretty ignorant way of living if you ask me..Let others decide what you should and shouldnt believe. I guess its easier to have someone else do your thinking for you instead of YOU thinking for yourself..

ALSO TC...Im saying "YOU" and its not directed at you..Its just "YOU" in general..

VanDammFan

How is that a flaw? And do you seriously know every religion to say "in every religion"?

A FLAW is a flaw..I stand by what I said...AND yes...EVERY RELIGION has its god and its beliefs..Thats kind of how it works..Dont pick apart things...just take it as a whole.

What? :lol:

1- "A FLAW is a flaw". That reply makes zero sense. I asked, how is a religion convicting its non-believers to hell being a flaw?

2- You said: "the flaw in christianity is the same flaw in every religion..If you dont believe in their way you are doomed". That has no relation to God. You lumped all religions to the heaven and hell basket, and more so, said they all doom you to hell for not adhering.