Is Piracy Stealing?

DON'T SAY YOU WOULDN'T, BECAUSE YOU REALLY WOULD

Bitter_Altmer

lol :)

But seriously, like I said (on page 3) stealing is not the same as piracy. I also asked for some opinions on different situations - I will repost here.

A few quick questions -
Is it stealing to use a vcr, tivo, or dvd recorder to capture a digital version of anything freely-aired on a televiision? Is this piracy?
Is it stealing to transfer a personally owned object into a digital format? Is this piracy?
Is it stealing to listen to commercial radio or commercial-free radio broadcasts without paying money to do so? Is this piracy?
Is it stealing to go to a freely available internet website to watch a movie that is still in a theater? Is this piracy?
Is it stealing to play a video game in a web browser? Is this piracy?
Is it stealing to use a digital camera to take a picture or record a video (with audio) of an object or event? Is this piracy?

To be more specific:
Is it stealing to watch a tv show episode on a site like tv.com? Is that piracy?
Is it stealing to watch a music video on youtube or listen to internet radio (sites like last.fm or pandora) commercial-free? Is that piracy?
If I play an NES game on NESCafe in my web browser (with Java) and use my keyboard to control a character - is that stealing? Is that piracy?

It all comes down to specific definitions - one person may say something is stealing, another says it's not, some say stealing is piracy, others say it's not? At what point do you draw the line? At what point are stealing and piracy the same thing?

If you want to stop people from downloading something deemed to have a copyright you MUST stop the original source from distributing the item.

But seriously, like I said (on page 3) stealing is not the same as piracy. I also asked for some opinions on different situations - I will repost here.

A few quick questions -
Is it stealing to use a vcr, tivo, or dvd recorder to capture a digital version of anything freely-aired on a televiision? Is this piracy?

"Freely aired" no

Is it stealing to transfer a personally owned object into a digital format? Is this piracy?

No, you own it (assuming you legally purchased it)

Is it stealing to listen to commercial radio or commercial-free radio broadcasts without paying money to do so? Is this piracy?

Is that even a serious question? Is it illegal to listen to the radio?

Is it stealing to go to a freely available internet website to watch a movie that is still in a theater? Is this piracy?

That depends if it was put on that site by the copyright owner or not.

Is it stealing to play a video game in a web browser? Is this piracy?

What do you mean? Yes, I can play the Helicopter Game legally.

Is it stealing to use a digital camera to take a picture or record a video (with audio) of an object or event? Is this piracy?

To be more specific:
Is it stealing to watch a tv show episode on a site like tv.com? Is that piracy?

No, the copyright owners allow the content to be put there.

Is it stealing to watch a music video on youtube or listen to internet radio (sites like last.fm or pandora) commercial-free? Is that piracy?

Not it it is put there with the copyright owners' permission (which it often is)

If I play an NES game on NESCafe in my web browser (with Java) and use my keyboard to control a character - is that stealing? Is that piracy?

Not really familiar with that service.

It all comes down to specific definitions - one person may say something is stealing, another says it's not, some say stealing is piracy, others say it's not? At what point do you draw the line? At what point are stealing and piracy the same thing?

Yes, they are the same thing.

If you want to stop people from downloading something deemed to have a copyright you MUST stop the original source from distributing the item.

I'm not going to read 5 pages of this thread so it might of already been mentioned, but I doubt it.

Legally piracy only applies to those that distribute. Receiving/obtaining/owning pirated goods is in no way illegal as long as you are not distributing them to others in anyway. In downloading a pirated item you are not stealing, and you cannot be prosecuted for possession of stolen goods.

Hope this clears things up. Distributing = stealing, Receiving = nothing

[QUOTE="Assassin1349"]

It's copying not stealing. Stealing would be going into a store and stealing a cd from the shelf. Copying would be downloading the MP3 files that someone ripped off of their cd. Still illegal and probably just as wrong but not the same practice.

bobaban

I dont think so. How can intellectual property exist?

I dont think so. How can intellectual property exist?

danwallacefan

.. If it didn't exist, then every acedemic field would be in shambles.

I'm not going to read 5 pages of this thread so it might of already been mentioned, but I doubt it.

Legally piracy only applies to those that distribute. Receiving/obtaining/owning pirated goods is in no way illegal as long as you are not distributing them to others in anyway. In downloading a pirated item you are not stealing, and you cannot be prosecuted for possession of stolen goods.

Hope this clears things up. Distributing = stealing, Receiving = nothing

jrhawk42

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

I'm not going to read 5 pages of this thread so it might of already been mentioned, but I doubt it.

Legally piracy only applies to those that distribute. Receiving/obtaining/owning pirated goods is in no way illegal as long as you are not distributing them to others in anyway. In downloading a pirated item you are not stealing, and you cannot be prosecuted for possession of stolen goods.

Hope this clears things up. Distributing = stealing, Receiving = nothing

racer8dan

This would be suggesting that you would even buy it int eh first place to begin with.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]

I dont think so. How can intellectual property exist?

sSubZerOo

.. If it didn't exist, then every acedemic field would be in shambles.

The argument against piracy seems, often, to revolve around 'potential sales" - a potential chance a company could make money.

Other than a transfer of digital content let's look at some real-world examples

- Every time an airplane takes off without selling a ticket for every single seat - Has the airline lost potential money? - Have they lost real money? It's the same situation for a motel/hotel with empty rooms.

- If I choose to pay $0.05 cents less for a gallon of gas at a station on one side of town as opposed to paying the extra and traveling the distance to go to another station - Has the other station lost potential money? - Have they lost real money?

- If I choose to shop at gamestop and buy a game (used or otherwise) for a cheaper price than wal-mart - Has wal-mart lost potential money? - Have they lost real money?

- If someone gets a pre-paid cell phone instead of paying the local phone company - Has the local phone company lost potential money? - Have they lost real money?

I think that anyone who could fly on that plane bought their ticket and is enjoying their flight.
I think some people are willing to pay more money for gas if it's more convenient to get to that particular station.
I think gamestop has the same right as a site like ebay, amazon, or half.com to re-sell copyrighted items. - Yet a lot of copyrighted material you buy, you are not supposed to re-sell.
I think any money my phone company loses on long distance I use my tracfone for is made up every month that I keep subscribing to their internet service.

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

I'm not going to read 5 pages of this thread so it might of already been mentioned, but I doubt it.

Legally piracy only applies to those that distribute. Receiving/obtaining/owning pirated goods is in no way illegal as long as you are not distributing them to others in anyway. In downloading a pirated item you are not stealing, and you cannot be prosecuted for possession of stolen goods.

Hope this clears things up. Distributing = stealing, Receiving = nothing

sSubZerOo

This would be suggesting that you would even buy it int eh first place to begin with.

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

I'm not going to read 5 pages of this thread so it might of already been mentioned, but I doubt it.

Legally piracy only applies to those that distribute. Receiving/obtaining/owning pirated goods is in no way illegal as long as you are not distributing them to others in anyway. In downloading a pirated item you are not stealing, and you cannot be prosecuted for possession of stolen goods.

Hope this clears things up. Distributing = stealing, Receiving = nothing

racer8dan

Sorry but the law, and the definitions of the terms don't see it your way. The theft takes place in the distributing, not upon your actions. When you are dealing w/ non-physical goods the rules change. First there is no possession of said goods. Normally upon receiving a stolen good, you are required by law to return it, but since there is no physical good you can't return it because it's personal property, and copyright law doesn't fully extend to personal property (unless it's obvious that it's intended for distributed, IE 1,000 of the same copy of a cd).

So in your case, you did not steal, but the place where you "downloaded it" did steal. Does that make sense?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]I disagree. I want the new Assassins creed 2 that came out, but $60 is a bit more than I want to spend right now, I know! I'll just find some place to download it for free and completely bypass paying for it all together. I have their game and I still have my $60. The developers got nothing. I'm sorry but this is stealing

racer8dan

This would be suggesting that you would even buy it int eh first place to begin with.

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

This would be suggesting that you would even buy it int eh first place to begin with.

guynamedbilly

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

This would be suggesting that you would even buy it int eh first place to begin with.

guynamedbilly

The argument against piracy seems, often, to revolve around 'potential sales" - a potential chance a company could make money.

Stinger78

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

I'm not going to read 5 pages of this thread so it might of already been mentioned, but I doubt it.

Legally piracy only applies to those that distribute. Receiving/obtaining/owning pirated goods is in no way illegal as long as you are not distributing them to others in anyway. In downloading a pirated item you are not stealing, and you cannot be prosecuted for possession of stolen goods.

Hope this clears things up. Distributing = stealing, Receiving = nothing

jrhawk42

Sorry but the law, and the definitions of the terms don't see it your way. The theft takes place in the distributing, not upon your actions. When you are dealing w/ non-physical goods the rules change. First there is no possession of said goods. Normally upon receiving a stolen good, you are required by law to return it, but since there is no physical good you can't return it because it's personal property, and copyright law doesn't fully extend to personal property (unless it's obvious that it's intended for distributed, IE 1,000 of the same copy of a cd).

So in your case, you did not steal, but the place where you "downloaded it" did steal. Does that make sense?

.....Copyright infringement (or copyright violation) is the unauthorized or prohibited use of works covered by copyright law, in a way that violates one of the copyright owner's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

And yes...copying can be copyright infringement.

The argument against piracy seems, often, to revolve around 'potential sales" - a potential chance a company could make money.

Other than a transfer of digital content let's look at some real-world examples

- Every time an airplane takes off without selling a ticket for every single seat - Has the airline lost potential money? - Have they lost real money? It's the same situation for a motel/hotel with empty rooms.

- If I choose to pay $0.05 cents less for a gallon of gas at a station on one side of town as opposed to paying the extra and traveling the distance to go to another station - Has the other station lost potential money? - Have they lost real money?

- If I choose to shop at gamestop and buy a game (used or otherwise) for a cheaper price than wal-mart - Has wal-mart lost potential money? - Have they lost real money?

- If someone gets a pre-paid cell phone instead of paying the local phone company - Has the local phone company lost potential money? - Have they lost real money?

I think that anyone who could fly on that plane bought their ticket and is enjoying their flight.
I think some people are willing to pay more money for gas if it's more convenient to get to that particular station.
I think gamestop has the same right as a site like ebay, amazon, or half.com to re-sell copyrighted items. - Yet a lot of copyrighted material you buy, you are not supposed to re-sell.
I think any money my phone company loses on long distance I use my tracfone for is made up every month that I keep subscribing to their internet service.

Stinger78

Ah, but in every one of these cases you are not using the firm's product, whereas in the case of piracy you are.

Just because the laws are there doesn't mean they should be. The games industry has been trying for a while to kill rentals because they aren't making money there. It is entirely possible that they will have enough lobbyist in the right places to get that pushed through in the future. That doesn't mean that it is a universally moral position. Piracy is not stealing, just as vandalism is not stealing. In both cases you are taking something of value away from another person but he terms just don't directly translate. If you completely agree with the IP protection laws, more power to you. A person should absolutely follow the laws, but work on changing them if they are not just.guynamedbilly

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]There is a difference between purchasing a used product and taking a product for free that requires payment. Not even the same....so this argument is moot.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]Just because the laws are there doesn't mean they should be. The games industry has been trying for a while to kill rentals because they aren't making money there. It is entirely possible that they will have enough lobbyist in the right places to get that pushed through in the future. That doesn't mean that it is a universally moral position. Piracy is not stealing, just as vandalism is not stealing. In both cases you are taking something of value away from another person but he terms just don't directly translate. If you completely agree with the IP protection laws, more power to you. A person should absolutely follow the laws, but work on changing them if they are not just.racer8dan

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The former is not a law though....LJS9502_basic

That is true. Gamestop and others can afford to fight back against any change like that. I agree with you completely that if it is a law, it should be followed, but copyright of IP is a fight that doesn't have any real opponents. There's no monetary gain to be had, that I have heard of, from someone taking the fight to the RIAA, MPAA, etc. That's why people just denounce the laws on forums and such. Hopefully, someday, lawmakers will take into consideration the rights of the buyer. They have to hear that argument somewhere.guynamedbilly

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]I disagree. I want the new Assassins creed 2 that came out, but $60 is a bit more than I want to spend right now, I know! I'll just find some place to download it for free and completely bypass paying for it all together. I have their game and I still have my $60. The developers got nothing. I'm sorry but this is stealing

LJS9502_basic

Sorry but the law, and the definitions of the terms don't see it your way. The theft takes place in the distributing, not upon your actions. When you are dealing w/ non-physical goods the rules change. First there is no possession of said goods. Normally upon receiving a stolen good, you are required by law to return it, but since there is no physical good you can't return it because it's personal property, and copyright law doesn't fully extend to personal property (unless it's obvious that it's intended for distributed, IE 1,000 of the same copy of a cd).

So in your case, you did not steal, but the place where you "downloaded it" did steal. Does that make sense?

.....Copyright infringement (or copyright violation) is the unauthorized or prohibited use of works covered by copyright law, in a way that violates one of the copyright owner's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

And yes...copying can be copyright infringement.

the term of "copying" in copyright infringement is plural, and intendedas copying for distribution (ie 1,000s of copies of the same material). Copying (singular) for personal use has repeatedly been deemed legal. Another example is breaking copyright encryption. It's legal to break copyright encryption for yourself, but you can't help anybody else do it.

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]That is true. Gamestop and others can afford to fight back against any change like that. I agree with you completely that if it is a law, it should be followed, but copyright of IP is a fight that doesn't have any real opponents. There's no monetary gain to be had, that I have heard of, from someone taking the fight to the RIAA, MPAA, etc. That's why people just denounce the laws on forums and such. Hopefully, someday, lawmakers will take into consideration the rights of the buyer. They have to hear that argument somewhere.LJS9502_basic

the term of "copying" in copyright infringement is plural, and intendedas copying for distribution (ie 1,000s of copies of the same material). Copying (singular) for personal use has repeatedly been deemed legal. Another example is breaking copyright encryption. It's legal to break copyright encryption for yourself, but you can't help anybody else do it.

jrhawk42

Quote....Duplication of a CD or other recorded media containing copyright material without permission of the copyright holder may be a form of copyright infringement, dependent on local laws.

Unquote.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]That is true. Gamestop and others can afford to fight back against any change like that. I agree with you completely that if it is a law, it should be followed, but copyright of IP is a fight that doesn't have any real opponents. There's no monetary gain to be had, that I have heard of, from someone taking the fight to the RIAA, MPAA, etc. That's why people just denounce the laws on forums and such. Hopefully, someday, lawmakers will take into consideration the rights of the buyer. They have to hear that argument somewhere.guynamedbilly

If you're taking something without someone's permission, then yes, that is stealing. Pirates try to justify their crime, but it's a crime and it's stealing.

In the current law, if a person buys a cd and broadcasts it in their restaurant, they owe the copyright holder royalties. This is one example that doesn't seem just to me.guynamedbilly

Technically piracy isn't stealing because you just multiply something without taking away the original, so this whole 'you wouldn't steal a car' campaign is based on a logical fallacy.

Of course there are other ways of declaring it illegal, such as pointing out the damage to potential sales, which is quite obviously decreasing profits for major record companies and artists. While this may be true juridically, I'm actually having no trouble with the sales lost by major record companies who have poisoned music as an art with heavily commercialised drivel. From a moral point of view I think it's quite amusing that big labels are losing big bucks over this, and the same basically goes for all the fake artists out there. It is the unwanted result of a consumer society they helped create, and I can't help but laugh when they launch their pathetic pleas to moral behaviour.

I personally buy pretty much all of my music as I experience music better when I actually have a physical copy that has been designed with care, instead of simply downloading some MP3s onto my computer, which turns music into a disposable product. Some music needs a lot of time to get into, and odds of that happening when you can download another 1000 albums if you don't like the first song of the one you're listening to, are rather dim. I also like the idea that I'm financially supporting small record labels and artists so that they can keep producing worthwhile music.

So to sum it up, I really don't care.

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"] In the current law, if a person buys a cd and broadcasts it in their restaurant, they owe the copyright holder royalties. This is one example that doesn't seem just to me.LJS9502_basic

Most things being pirated are video games, movies, and music. None of these items are neccessary for life. Yet, people somehow feel entitled to them. You can say that whatever company charges too much, but why is having this product neccessary? If you don't want to pay for it, then don't get it.

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

the term of "copying" in copyright infringement is plural, and intendedas copying for distribution (ie 1,000s of copies of the same material). Copying (singular) for personal use has repeatedly been deemed legal. Another example is breaking copyright encryption. It's legal to break copyright encryption for yourself, but you can't help anybody else do it.

LJS9502_basic

Quote....Duplication of a CD or other recorded media containing copyright material without permission of the copyright holder may be a form of copyright infringement, dependent on local laws.

Unquote.

I don't know where you got this quote, but it's obviously not any legally standing document. Also copyright infringement is not under the jurisdiction of local laws.

quote....what you posted was misinterpreted, made up, or taken out of context. unquote

I think piracy is called piracy because it stand for pirate, duh? :P

If a man steals an item from somebody's home, then sells it, is that buyer a thief? Obviously not. The thieves are those who take the property and offer it for others to download.

dhyce

That person would not be charged with theft, but he could very well be charged with possession of stolen property. When a person KNOWINGLY obtains stolen property - even if nothing is paid for it - that person can be charged.

Personally, I don't think it matters whether or not piracy is technically stealing. What matters is the morality of the act. And since MrGeezer and LJS are doing a fine job of defending my position, I'll let them handle it this time around.

[QUOTE="dercoo"]

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

In no way shape or form, of the idea of theft, is piracy even remotly related to stealing. Piracy is stealing in the same sense that walking is stealing from car companies...

Thankfully I live in Canada where I don't have to hear about this debate often since piracy is legal.

LJS9502_basic

:lol: .

Not laughing at you, but with you as you brought up a good debate.

You and the anti piracy people are saying that piracy is theft because it takes profit away from them (assuing anyone who pirates would buy the material)

I'm saying walking is theft by that logics because it takes profit away from the car companies (assuming everyone who walks would have bought a car if they couldn't walk)

And if tomorrow some government came out with a law that said it is illegal to walk, you must drive a car I am pretty sure you would say "thats a stupid law" not "walking is theft"

If you're taking something without someone's permission, then yes, that is stealing. Pirates try to justify their crime, but it's a crime and it's stealing.

sonicare

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="dercoo"]

:lol: .

Not laughing at you, but with you as you brought up a good debate.

htekemerald

You and the anti piracy people are saying that piracy is theft because it takes profit away from them (assuing anyone who pirates would buy the material)

I'm saying walking is theft by that logics because it takes profit away from the car companies (assuming everyone who walks would have bought a car if they couldn't walk)

And if tomorrow some government came out with a law that said it is illegal to walk, you must drive a car I am pretty sure you would say "thats a stupid law" not "walking is theft"

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="jrhawk42"]

the term of "copying" in copyright infringement is plural, and intendedas copying for distribution (ie 1,000s of copies of the same material). Copying (singular) for personal use has repeatedly been deemed legal. Another example is breaking copyright encryption. It's legal to break copyright encryption for yourself, but you can't help anybody else do it.

jrhawk42

Quote....Duplication of a CD or other recorded media containing copyright material without permission of the copyright holder may be a form of copyright infringement, dependent on local laws.

Unquote.

I don't know where you got this quote, but it's obviously not any legally standing document. Also copyright infringement is not under the jurisdiction of local laws.

quote....what you posted was misinterpreted, made up, or taken out of context. unquote

The title thread is literally asking: "Wanna play semantics? :D"

The title thread is literally asking: "Wanna play semantics? :D"

Teenaged

Well, I wouldn't say it is literally asking that.