Is Piracy Stealing?

The console versions were amazing. If it wasn't priced at 60 dollars then they wouldn't have a huge piracy problem. 60 is too much for a PC game.

Actually I'm pretty sure you have to be connected is so you can't pirate it. AC1 was the most pirated game of all time because it was too expensive and that's exactly the same problem here.

[QUOTE="McJugga"]

[QUOTE="MoonMarvel"]:| That doesnt make any sense. MoonMarvel

Really? Let's put two of your quotes together and see what happens.

You: "Stealing is when you obtain something via illegal means."

You: "If I obtain a perscription dug via illegal means your saying I stole it?"

Hm...

The console versions were amazing. If it wasn't priced at 60 dollars then they wouldn't have a huge piracy problem. 60 is too much for a PC game.

Actually I'm pretty sure you have to be connected is so you can't pirate it. AC1 was the most pirated game of all time because it was too expensive and that's exactly the same problem here.

[QUOTE="MoonMarvel"][QUOTE="McJugga"]

Really? Let's put two of your quotes together and see what happens.

You: "Stealing is when you obtain something via illegal means."

You: "If I obtain a perscription dug via illegal means your saying I stole it?"

Hm...

McJugga

I'm gonna go to best buy with my laptop, take a cd off the shelf, open it up, stick it in my laptops drive and rip it, put the cd back on the shelf and walk out. Was that stealing or not?

It's not technically stealing, since nothing is actually physically taken.

However, it is morally equivalent to stealing since it is done for the exact same motives as physical theft of property: the person who does it wants to get something for nothing, while avoiding paying compensation to the "owner".

The effect on the victim might not be the same as with actual theft. However, morally speaking, it's exactly the same.

It's not technically stealing, since nothing is actually physically taken.

However, it is morally equivalent to stealing since it is done for the exact same motives as physical theft of property: the person who does it wants to get something for nothing, while avoiding paying compensation to the "owner".

The effect on the victim might not be the same as with actual theft. However, morally speaking, it's exactly the same.

MrGeezer

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

It's not technically stealing, since nothing is actually physically taken.

However, it is morally equivalent to stealing since it is done for the exact same motives as physical theft of property: the person who does it wants to get something for nothing, while avoiding paying compensation to the "owner".

The effect on the victim might not be the same as with actual theft. However, morally speaking, it's exactly the same.

racer8dan

It's funny how you describe the value of the CD as being 40 cents, when it has the media on it.

Yes, the media is more valuable to the company than the actual disc. This is why you can buy blank discs for around 50 cents, while a disc with the media on it costs about $10. The media is more valuable to MOST PEOPLE than the actual disc. That's why people illegally obtain the media while ignoring the disc entirely. The media really IS more valuable than the actual disc.

The problem is, when people illegally obtain media and then don't pay for it, they aren't paying for the media either.

EDIT: Yes, you're entirely right that in spirit, it's just the same as stealing. The actual loss of a CD costs very little to anyone. The REAL loss is in the illegal acquisition of the media on the disc.

lets throw another example out there. Lets say I made a movie, and I was selling it on my website for $100, this movie is ONLY available on my website via pay and download, no dvd's no other place to get except for my website and my website only. Now someone wants my movie but $100 is way to much to pay so he finds away around paying via hack and downloads it for free. Is this an act of theft?

Technically no. Stealing requires the taking of an object away from its owner. In the case of piracy nothing is actually taken away from the creator of said content, they still possess the content that they created. Darth-Caedus

Well it is copyright infringement. And in some sense it could be considered stealing, because you are essentially stealing the expected profits they would have gotten from your buying whatever you pirated.

lets throw another example out there. Lets say I made a movie, and I was selling it on my website for $100, this movie is ONLY available on my website via pay and download, no dvd's no other place to get except for my website and my website only. Now someone wants my movie but $100 is way to much to pay so he finds away around paying via hack and downloads it for free. Is this an act of theft?

racer8dan

lets throw another example out there. Lets say I made a movie, and I was selling it on my website for $100, this movie is ONLY available on my website via pay and download, no dvd's no other place to get except for my website and my website only. Now someone wants my movie but $100 is way to much to pay so he finds away around paying via hack and downloads it for free. Is this an act of theft?

racer8dan

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

It's not technically stealing, since nothing is actually physically taken.

However, it is morally equivalent to stealing since it is done for the exact same motives as physical theft of property: the person who does it wants to get something for nothing, while avoiding paying compensation to the "owner".

The effect on the victim might not be the same as with actual theft. However, morally speaking, it's exactly the same.

MrGeezer

It's funny how you describe the value of the CD as being 40 cents, when it has the media on it.

Yes, the media is more valuable to the company than the actual disc. This is why you can buy blank discs for around 50 cents, while a disc with the media on it costs about $10. The media is more valuable to MOST PEOPLE than the actual disc. That's why people illegally obtain the media while ignoring the disc entirely. The media really IS more valuable than the actual disc.

The problem is, when people illegally obtain media and then don't pay for it, they aren't paying for the media either.

EDIT: Yes, you're entirely right that in spirit, it's just the same as stealing. The actual loss of a CD costs very little to anyone. The REAL loss is in the illegal acquisition of the media on the disc.

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

lets throw another example out there. Lets say I made a movie, and I was selling it on my website for $100, this movie is ONLY available on my website via pay and download, no dvd's no other place to get except for my website and my website only. Now someone wants my movie but $100 is way to much to pay so he finds away around paying via hack and downloads it for free. Is this an act of theft?

Juggernaut140

[QUOTE="Juggernaut140"][QUOTE="racer8dan"]

lets throw another example out there. Lets say I made a movie, and I was selling it on my website for $100, this movie is ONLY available on my website via pay and download, no dvd's no other place to get except for my website and my website only. Now someone wants my movie but $100 is way to much to pay so he finds away around paying via hack and downloads it for free. Is this an act of theft?

racer8dan

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

lets throw another example out there. Lets say I made a movie, and I was selling it on my website for $100, this movie is ONLY available on my website via pay and download, no dvd's no other place to get except for my website and my website only. Now someone wants my movie but $100 is way to much to pay so he finds away around paying via hack and downloads it for free. Is this an act of theft?

McJugga

I think a better question to ask would be whether copyright infringement is stealing.

Sharing is caring. The printing press was considered the work of the Devil when it first appeared. Silent movies were ostracized when they first appeared on the grounds that they would ruin public performances. Xerox was condemned for screwing narrow-minded selfish information Nazis out of money. VHS video was attacked for the same reason. Humanity does not need to change, models of Capitalism need to change. Feel free to keep acknowledging intellectual property, just don't shun the dissemination of its content. Information should not be distributed in discrete packages only to those that can afford to pay for it.

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="Juggernaut140"] You just basically described what piracy is :|McJugga

Sharing is caring. The printing press was considered the work of the Devil when it first appeared. Silent movies were ostracized when they first appeared on the grounds that they would ruin public performances. Xerox was condemned for screwing narrow-minded selfish information Nazis out of money. VHS video was attacked for the same reason. Humanity does not need to change, models of Capitalism need to change. Feel free to keep acknowledging intellectual property, just don't shun the dissemination of its content. Information should not be distributed in discrete packages to those that can afford to pay for it.

compost-mentis

If you want to share content that YOU made, then go right ahead.

And yes, information SHOULD be distributed in discrete packages to those that can afford to pay for it, since it costs money and time to make that "information". If someone else is investing resources into making it in the first place, then they should be compensated.

Your're all just trying to justify your actions, because it makes you feel better about taking what isn't yours. I'm not judging you, I have pirated a couple music tracks as well in my younger days, But the facts of the matter remain. If you can't use a little logic and some good old fashioned common sense, then you are in denial or uneducated, in which I hope youv'e gotton your education from this thread.

Your're all just trying to justify your actions, because it makes you feel better about taking what isn't yours. I'm not judging you, I have pirated a couple music tracks as well in my younger days, But the facts of the matter remain. If you can't use a little logic and some good old fashioned common sense, then you are in denial or uneducated, in which I hope youv'e gotton your education from this thread.

racer8dan

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

Your're all just trying to justify your actions, because it makes you feel better about taking what isn't yours. I'm not judging you, I have pirated a couple music tracks as well in my younger days, But the facts of the matter remain. If you can't use a little logic and some good old fashioned common sense, then you are in denial or uneducated, in which I hope youv'e gotton your education from this thread.

McJugga

Your're all just trying to justify your actions, because it makes you feel better about taking what isn't yours. I'm not judging you, I have pirated a couple music tracks as well in my younger days, But the facts of the matter remain. If you can't use a little logic and some good old fashioned common sense, then you are in denial or uneducated, in which I hope youv'e gotton your education from this thread.

racer8dan

Bottom line is that in a capitalistic society, pure greed is going to run rampant. At least here in the USA, we live in a society that's largely built on maximizing personal gain at the expense of everyone else. That attitude is absolutely going to seep into a huge segment of the general population.

If someone were to take a picture of a car, is that stealing?Jd1680a

It certainly might be, if "a picture of a car" performed the same function as "an actual car".

[QUOTE="compost-mentis"]

Sharing is caring. The printing press was considered the work of the Devil when it first appeared. Silent movies were ostracized when they first appeared on the grounds that they would ruin public performances. Xerox was condemned for screwing narrow-minded selfish information Nazis out of money. VHS video was attacked for the same reason. Humanity does not need to change, models of Capitalism need to change. Feel free to keep acknowledging intellectual property, just don't shun the dissemination of its content. Information should not be distributed in discrete packages to those that can afford to pay for it.

MrGeezer

If you want to share content that YOU made, then go right ahead.

And yes, information SHOULD be distributed in discrete packages to those that can afford to pay for it, since it costs money and time to make that "information". If someone else is investing resources into making it in the first place, then they should be compensated.

As far as I am concerned, all art and other information is public domain. Make your money through sale of physical media or live performance. I am a Post-Marxist Anti-Capitalist anyway, so no point arguing with me...

One of the greatest questions of our time for someone who like philosophy. How do you count something as stealing, if nothing physical have been lost? If someone were to take a picture of a car, is that stealing?Jd1680a

As far as I am concerned, all art and other information is public domain. Make your money through sale of physical media or live performance. I am a Post-Marxist Anti-Capitalist anyway, so no point arguing with me...

compost-mentis

So I take it that you work for free?

And if you don't work for free, why would you expect an artist to work for free?

[QUOTE="compost-mentis"]

As far as I am concerned, all art and other information is public domain. Make your money through sale of physical media or live performance. I am a Post-Marxist Anti-Capitalist anyway, so no point arguing with me...

MrGeezer

So I take it that you work for free?

And if you don't work for free, why would you expect an artist to work for free?

If one creates with money in mind, one is not an artist, one is a business person, and you can guarantee it will be reflected in the poor quality of their art.

Take Salvador Dali for instance- his work was great right up until the 50's when he thought he could make a fortune doing crap illustrations and paintings for serious cash- the value of his work bottomed out at that point on the antique/art scene.

Your're all just trying to justify your actions, because it makes you feel better about taking what isn't yours. I'm not judging you, I have pirated a couple music tracks as well in my younger days, But the facts of the matter remain. If you can't use a little logic and some good old fashioned common sense, then you are in denial or uneducated, in which I hope youv'e gotton your education from this thread.

racer8dan

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

Your're all just trying to justify your actions, because it makes you feel better about taking what isn't yours. I'm not judging you, I have pirated a couple music tracks as well in my younger days, But the facts of the matter remain. If you can't use a little logic and some good old fashioned common sense, then you are in denial or uneducated, in which I hope youv'e gotton your education from this thread.

Assassin1349

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

Your're all just trying to justify your actions, because it makes you feel better about taking what isn't yours. I'm not judging you, I have pirated a couple music tracks as well in my younger days, But the facts of the matter remain. If you can't use a little logic and some good old fashioned common sense, then you are in denial or uneducated, in which I hope youv'e gotton your education from this thread.

Assassin1349

[QUOTE="Assassin1349"][QUOTE="racer8dan"]

Your're all just trying to justify your actions, because it makes you feel better about taking what isn't yours. I'm not judging you, I have pirated a couple music tracks as well in my younger days, But the facts of the matter remain. If you can't use a little logic and some good old fashioned common sense, then you are in denial or uneducated, in which I hope youv'e gotton your education from this thread.

racer8dan

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="compost-mentis"]

As far as I am concerned, all art and other information is public domain. Make your money through sale of physical media or live performance. I am a Post-Marxist Anti-Capitalist anyway, so no point arguing with me...

compost-mentis

So I take it that you work for free?

And if you don't work for free, why would you expect an artist to work for free?

If one creates with money in mind, one is not an artist, one is a business person, and you can guarantee it will be reflected in the poor quality of their art.

Well then...people making this intellectual property obviously suck.

So...no use illegally downloading an album or a movie. Since the quality is poor, you've obviously got no reason to want it.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "this is art, I should be able to experience it without paying for it", and then turn around and say "that artist doesn't like working for free?! That makes his art garbage!"

If his art is garbage, then you don't need to watch/play/listen to it. In which case, you've just destroyed your own argument for piracy.

[QUOTE="compost-mentis"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

So I take it that you work for free?

And if you don't work for free, why would you expect an artist to work for free?

MrGeezer

If one creates with money in mind, one is not an artist, one is a business person, and you can guarantee it will be reflected in the poor quality of their art.

Well then...people making this intellectual property obviously suck.

So...no use illegally downloading an album or a movie. Since the quality is poor, you've obviously got no reason to want it.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "this is art, I should be able to experience it without paying for it", and then turn around and say "that artist doesn't like working for free?! That makes his art garbage!"

If his art is garbage, then you don't need to watch/play/listen to it. In which case, you've just destroyed your own argument for piracy.

Many do what they do not for financial gain, but because they believe in what they are doing, and if riches come their way under the Capitalistic model of Western society, then great, they can live an easier and more decadent life, but this is not what motivates them. There are FAR too many clowns in the entertainment industry that are in it for the money, and some that just think that their cheezy contributions are actually "good" (Uwe Boll; Mike Bay). Capitalism, money, and greed are counterproductive to society, and only serve to isolate, segregate, and increase paranoia.

Actually I'm pretty sure you have to be connected is so you can't pirate it. AC1 was the most pirated game of all time because it was too expensive and that's exactly the same problem here.

I don't get it. I was waiting for a picture to load or something but that's all there is to your post. I'm guessing you're implying I pirated it?

Many do what they do not for financial gain, but because they believe in what they are doing, and if riches come their way under the Capitalistic model of Western society, then great, they can live an easier and more decadent life, but this is not what motivates them. There are FAR too many clowns in the entertainment industry that are in it for the money, and some that just think that their cheezy contributions are actually "good" (Uwe Boll; Mike Bay). Capitalism, money, and greed are counterproductive to society, and only serve to isolate, segregate, and increase paranoia.

compost-mentis

Great. This rant against capitalism is irrelevant.

We've already established that YOU aren't willing to work for free. But that you think that artists SHOULD work for free, since "they're ARTISTS, not BUSINESSMEN".

What makes "screwing someone over by enjoying the fruits of their labor and not compensating them" okay when we're talking about artists? Instead, for the sake of argument, let's suppose that some dude works at a company that makes windows. Let's assume that this dude polishes the windows, or does a final quality inspection. Let's assume that the company goes broke, and immediately fires everyone and tries to avoid paying them money that they were owed.

Is THAT okay? If it's okay to enjoy the fruits of the artist's labors without paying him, then what makes it any different to enjoy the fruits of a window polisher's labors and then denying paying him for the work that he already did?

Both the artist and the window polisher could not have done that work in the first place, without monetary compensation. You know, seeing as how both artists and window polishers need to eat, and food costs money. What makes it okay to enjoy the artist's work without paying, while it's wrong to benefit from any other service worker's work without paying?

[QUOTE="Assassin1349"][QUOTE="RobboElRobbo"]

Actually I'm pretty sure you have to be connected is so you can't pirate it. AC1 was the most pirated game of all time because it was too expensive and that's exactly the same problem here.

RobboElRobbo

I don't get it. I was waiting for a picture to load or something but that's all there is to your post. I'm guessing you're implying I pirated it?

[QUOTE="RobboElRobbo"][QUOTE="Assassin1349"]Heh, about that.. Assassin1349

I don't get it. I was waiting for a picture to load or something but that's all there is to your post. I'm guessing you're implying I pirated it?

Yeah. All they had to do was lower the price.

[QUOTE="Assassin1349"]

[QUOTE="RobboElRobbo"]

I don't get it. I was waiting for a picture to load or something but that's all there is to your post. I'm guessing you're implying I pirated it?

RobboElRobbo

Yeah. All they had to do was lower the price.

In the minds of most pirates, paying nothing is always preferable to paying a fair price. Everyone who makes media could make a significant loss on every single thing they produce, and pirates would still illegally obtain it for free. Because paying nothing > paying anything.

Yeah, pretty much. Just in a digital way.

Piracy or to promote a non violent product to a willing worldwide community under the word piracy. Let me slap your wrist. It works both ways.