Why do we continue to pretend Smash Bro is top tier?

What makes it not top tier? Its superb production values and finely honed game design make it the very definition of "top tier".

@Juub1990: thanks for playing!

This proves to me you never really got into smash because first of all the game can be a casual fighting experience or a mlg experiance, People who play competively always turn items off. No tournaments use items, items are for casuals that just want to see a bunch of crazy shit while they fight. I love fighting games, Tekken, DOA, MK, MVC, KOF, Virtual fighter, SF, and i can assure you smash is more than just "babies first fighting game". The misconception comes from people who have never played competively, casuals who think you have to play with items and that play with people equally as bad as themselves. Smash has a stong learning curve and is has a much more unique system than any 2D or 3D fighter on the market.

You say your not good at fighting games, if thats true you will get completely wrecked by someone that knows what their doing, So as long as you are playing people with your bad skill set you will be ok, but someone who has played alot and knows all of the mechanics will obliterate you. if you dont know how to time your techs, air recovery, and dodging your lack of skill will be very obvious and you will get handled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ3c3JCNzIQ< good example

same reason people call tekken or street fighter top tier.

it's the their fighting game of choice and thats it. dont like it then play street fighter. dont like that? play mortal kombat.

etc...

A mod who makes borderline bait threads. Then people wonder why System Wars is shit.

Here TC, you can use it

@mojito1988: Sorry but adding beers + friends makes (except the obvious) everything better.

That might be true. But honestly I only played the Gamecube version for a substantial amount of time, the Wii version I barely played... and that was it. Didn't own a Wii-U, don't yet have a Switch. Was there a "pro-league" in the Gamecube era? I wouldn't have imagined it. Honestly I have no idea, I don't care about such things at all (I find the whole idea of "pro" or competitive gaming pretty much cringe worthy regardless of genre). Though I recognize certain games get serious competitive play for whatever reason, and with MLG and such it is a growing thing.

I always thought of Street Fighter as the defacto fighting series. The idea of a Mortal Kombat pro league would also be sort of cringe worthy to me. Anything CAN be competitive, even games that aren't good, but MK always felt sort of stiff and unresponsive to me from version to version. I wouldn't think pro competitive players would care for that. MK to me was always about the fatalities and lore and not much more. Some of those other games seem way to niche to me, but at least classic Tekken and Virtua Fighter series had a ton of intricacies that I feel like would warrant some serious competitiveness. But I have no idea if they ever had a popular "scene" or not, because like I said I don't care at all about such things.

@2Chalupas: Melee is still the most popular Smash competitively and widely regarded as the one with the most depth. It’s very fast paced and difficult to master.

When people aren't exposed to many third-party games, everything handed to them by Nintendo is turned into something God-tier, no matter how scant and chintzy it is. Imagine something like Splatoon being a game on PSN instead of Nintendo systems. No one would have gave it the time of day.

Nintendo goes way too splashy on a party game starring their characters and the sheep lose their minds. There's not even anything majorly different about these games mechanics-wise that's worth getting worked up over. That doesn't mean the games can't be enjoyed by people, as a party game. But beyond that, with all the hype it has, IDGI. Nintendo has weird hold over people I long moved past on after their first home console.

@techhog89: two things... Youre waaaay too sensitive and second, you assume waaaay too much.

Its as if you didn't read the op.

Its Nintendo and has characters that brings the "nostalgics" feelings. Its an instant winning formula for critics to gush all over it

@BenjaminBanklin: Of course cows wouldn’t spend any time with Splatoon. It’s a game where you actually have to control your character 100% of the time. That shit is like next level when you’re used to interactive movies that constantly take away control to show you cutscenes or flashy scripted moves.

It's fun to play if you are not at all worried about having a solid, seriously competitive game. It excels in being an easy to play party game with many options from co-op, to team pvp, to free for all.

That being said, I do understand OP's confusion with the huge celebration on release for this game. I have never had much of a desire to actually go out of my way to play a Smash Bros game, but when offered, I will always play with some friends - because that's what it does best IMO.

Still doesn't really shine as a competitive game. Everything about its "community" and exactly why it has been exalted by it's fanbase for having depth is absolutely toxic - players dropping out of tournaments because they can't use their special defect controller, etc. The only reason why Smash ever was allowed into EVO was because Mr. Wiz saw how much money he could make off of Smash players.

Whatever pays his bills I guess.

SSBU is an excellent multiplayer game, but fighting against bots does eventually get old after a while.

I would consider it very high tier, but not top tier. It is going to be a blast to play for years to come, and I will get more than my money's worth. But I don't expect a potential GOAT.

Except it does.

Smash does superbly as a casual game as well as a hardcore competitive game. A game that despite getting no updates, is competitively relevant for nearly 2 decades, and despite all htis time still has a developing meta, is a sign of a lot of competitive depth.

Meanwhile, most other games during this timespan get forgotten.

@mazuiface: It’s one of the most popular fighting games out there and dwarfs all the others in terms of popularity. Purists can be pissed all they want, Smash is a much higher profile game than any traditional fighter.

Actually I think Street Fighter's competitive scene is slightly bigger last time I checked. But that may have changed with SF5 (which I know a lot of SF fans disliked).

You're failing to identify why games are GOOD for so many people, constantly only thinking about yourself. "I'm just not gonna pretend a game is good", the game is good, this isn't up for debate. It's loved by critics, and millions and millions of players. Now, if the game isn't for you, that's fine. No big deal, there are plenty of other games out there.

This. I was really surprised this thread was made by a mod, I was expecting it to be some random tard trying to spike a flame war. This place is really going to shit.

@BenjaminBanklin: Yeah you're right, Splatoon 2 wouldn't stand a chance next to all those awesome first-party multiplayer games on PS4.

@Kusimeka: I don't see what's wrong with this thread, OP stated his opinion and it's creating a lot of lively discussion.

There really isn’t a huge problem with the game itself. It can be as fun as any other fighter out there. But this game gets most enjoyment by playing with others. Personally, my funnest times with this franchise is when I make custom rules and play with or against others I.e. items on only poke balls, items on only motion sensor bombs 99 lives and things of that nature but lately I find most only want to 1v1 no items the crap out of it. Even in free for all I sense ultracompetitiveness and and a lack of creativity. I’m down for 1v1 time to time but it just feels weird to largely ignore the gold mine of fun that the game allows.

Smash is one of the few fighting games that is both accessible to casuals yet valuable to hardcore eSports pro-gamers. It's balanced for gamers at all levels of skill, from the most casual to the most hardcore. That's why it's so huge.

I'm going to have to disagree here, almost every fighting game is now designed and easy to pick up barring Guilty Gear and a few other select (anime) fighters.

The problem isn't the game being "accessible", it's half the time,people are abusing the shit out of online play to deliberately play at lower ranks. It gives the false impression of a much higher skill ceiling as the base requirement. Something that is just... ignored basically. Making all-attempts at accessible design moot.

The interesting thing about SFV is that it tracks user-data, alot of it.Including Steam and PSN profiles which are dummys alot of the time. 89% win rate? No Steam account set-up? This stuff happens probably more so than legit players. Who are all but driven off.

With friends local pick up and play? Learn it pretty quickly. Especially with auto-combos and easier to input moves. DBZF straight up uses universal moves. Spend less time figuring out "how do I play this", and more on "how you will play".

@crimsonllama: Hey well there's been some good points made for and against Smash so far imo.

I think there's less sheep on Gamespot than cows/lems/hermits, so that's prob why we move slower. :P

i bet you if call of duty 4 was a wii game no one would have bought it either.

It’s just straight up old school fun.

Can't it be said the same about other multiplayer focused games ??? Overwatch ... great game, but only if you are willing to play online ... Fortnite, definitely give it a try... but only if you have an Internet connection.

It can also work the other way around. God of War ... 10/10 but only if your 4 brothers/friends are willing to take turns to play.

Honestly, i didn't see people complaining when Left 4 Dead got good scores. With Smash, not only you have arguably the best multiplayer game to date this gen, you also have single player content, the option to go online for either competitive play or casual play, i mean, after all Is not that uncommon for fighters (traditional or not) get great scores.

Last but not least, the roster is actually a huge deal since it appeals to so many people, from kids who want to use Lucario and Pikachu, to old schoolers who giggle at the sight of Duck Hunt and Simon, to competitive players who will play the best characters, to guys who just love video games in general.

Also, the gameplay has been refined, the music is great, the graphics are nice, the game runs smoothly. Is a very complete package.

I'm not giving you reasons for you to like the game, is fine if you don't liked it, i'm just stating why so many people and media outlets love the franchise.

Well, It didn't work with Sony. If it were that easy, PSAS would have been a huge success right? is not like it has to do with production values, attention to details, fun gameplay, etc, etc, etc... Is all about nostalgia right?

Lots of good discussion...! Also, Lots of folks who read the title and not the op... I'm not asking for someone to explain to me that some people have different tastes... I've been gaming since 1982 I know what different tastes are... Im commenting on the overall draw of Smash, and asked pretty clearly what it is about smash that makes it top tier to you because it isn't a must have franchise to me. Some of you have great defenses and some of you are super sensitive and didn't really read the op... But that's cool. It's all love In 2019.

Ha ha ha I can't believe people here actually saying Smash Bros. isn't competitive. Despite its simplicity, I find it to have a deeper skill pool than most fighters since you can't button mash your way to miraculous win. You either know what you're doing or you get wrecked. I used to play 2v1 matches against family members whom I'd consider intermediate level-wise just for my amusement and still win. (Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl. Sort of skipped Wii-U version but I plan on getting a Switch and Ultimate later) They may know the fundamentals of how to play but it takes more than knowing how to shield and roll to win a match....

I'm surprised at how many people here have never played Smash Bros.

I mean...if you had gamer friends in the late 90s or early 00s, you've played Smash Bros. It's like Mario Kart - it's one of the staples of local multiplayer/party gaming.

The brilliant thing about the game though is that you can play it while drunk at parties, and you can also play it at extremely competitive levels. The game is both extremely accessible and exceptionally deep. Add on tons of content, gameplay modes, and nostalgia (those spirits are *fantastic*), and it all easily adds up to a top-tier game.

Well to be fair declaring the "moment to moment gameplay is mundane" is completely subjective. Yes the mechanics are actually simple, but the pace and chaos hardly equal mundane in my eyes, and the many different scenarios you can create with it.

Previous versions I would agree with you, because the Online was bad and the single player "reasons to play" were bad. The Spirit World and Online now are good carrots on a stick to keep the interest going, the spirits having so many different challenges, that evolve on a weekly/monthly basis also keeps things "fresh" compared to most fighters.

There is that element of "Its nintendo characters" ofcourse... and some of the enjoyment comes down to having your favourite characters battle. It's the sum of its parts.... excellent graphics, excellent music, excellent cast.

Gameplay loops in most competitive games don't tend to be that complex.... its just how well they are executed. I appreciate "Traditional Fighters" have more core-gameplay depth ... but in the end, this is just so much more fun than those games. (again, subjective)

I would make the same comparison about Mario Kart .... sure GT/Forza are technically great, realistic and more in depth. but my god are they boring in comparison, If I HAD to choose, I would burn them in the microwave and play Mario Kart for eternity.

Nintendo is about pure fun and well polished gameplay. Some people prefer sims, some people prefer Nitnendo's style. its simple.

PSAS characters are not mario, link or pikachu. It actually lacked several "nostalgic" characters like Crash, Spiro, etc in detriment of more recent ones that made people baffled at why they were there. Not the same... at all. After all PSAS was instantly trashed for being a rip-off, despite its own merits. It may not be a better game then Smash but people were jumping on the game before its release just for being PS version of Smash and nothing else. Same happened with Dante's Inferno i.e. its a good game by its own but critics gave it instant mediocre scores for being "too much like GoW", no matter how good the game actually is on its own

@Vatusus: PSAS is also trash so there’s that.

Only because of it's never ending debate on whether of not it's a fighter. Like the debate on a certain 80's action movie being a Christmas movie (it's director and company says yes, but lead actor says no).

Here's your Tinfoil hat:

Because I'm sure that's why PSABR and Brawlhalla were poorly received as they were compared to Smash, "taht Nintendo nuhstalgiah". : roll:

@Vatusus: hahahahaha NO! The game tried to capitalize on Smash success, but it sucked hard.

Sony's sucked because of various reasons.

Nathan Drake is not a good characters... and he was the poster child!

Well that's because both Forza & GT are racing simulators, there's only so much you can do to a racing simulator. Kart racing is very different compare to other racing games. Karts using wacky items to pummel other racers while trying to win and both Mario Kart & Crash Team Racing just happens to be more fun cause they aren't simulators. And what makes Nintendo Sports/fighting games so much fun is, they are as close to "Extreme Sports" as we'll ever gonna get.

Nathan Drake is a phony and his last name isn't Drake lol

Because if you are a Nintendo fan and want to play a fighting game this is your only option.

Na. SF30th, SFII, SNK Heroins. DBZF.

The default controls are shit though. Little teeny-tiny mini-pad.

@jackamomo: street fighter is on switch.

@kali-b1rd: good post.. I used the word mundane because whether I am in smash mode, online or spirit world etc... Its still me doing the same thing every few minutes... That's not inherently bad, because lots of games operate this way, but it makes smash feel Ike it prioritizes collecting things over being immersed in great gameplay.

Take Kirby for example... I can literally spam up/down, B button and have the upper hand in every match that doesn't have some environmental traps. So I unlocked a dozen characters doing the same two moves, which admittedly was boring and also on my part maybe a little unnecessary.... Still, for me it's "why is this game special...?" I accept that it does fan service right and is a couch coop masterpiece, but a franchise that doesn't translate to compelling gameplay for everyone...

There is no hate, only perspective.

@TheEroica: You’ve got the upper hand in every match you’ve played by spamming two attacks? How many did you play? 2?

Not trying to hate, but that sounds ridiculous. There are some really easy World of Light fights, but a lot of them can be pretty challenging. Plus human opponenents don’t fall for that, not even the bad players.

If you find fighting with one character mundane, try a different one. There is quite a lot of depth and tactic to play with.

@Sgt_Crow: I'd say the first 15 to 20 matches I played I was able to spam kirbys double slice up/B attack followed by his Stomp down attack, Down/B as my prodominant means of attack and I only lose if wind is blowing us around...

I am learning other characters too. I like link and Samus quite a bit.... Young link is also badass...

Usually in a good fighting game spamming iS punished.

If you straight up spam heavy attacks you'll be at a frame-disadvantage delaying your next strike in favour of the defender.

Trying to spam in SSB or any other fighting game for that matter, is just asking to be combo'ed to death.