Why do we continue to pretend Smash Bro is top tier?

Who CARES? I hope Sony doesn't have to end up selling toys of their characters because that means the gamescape is dry. You can line all these characters up with the Nintendo list and it's equally as boring. Who gives a shit about a bunch of mascots? Nintendo guys do, that's who. The fact that you're droning on about Nintendo's lame lineup of characters over Smash's gameplay speaks volumes.

Tell me something. If Smash Brothers didn't have all these characters, and was a game made by a third party company, would you buy it? Or would it just come off as a goofy party game? Be truthful.

@BenjaminBanklin: dude I owned all stars and regardless that the roster was weak the game just wasnt fun, it sucked.

The saddest part about reading that list is that some of the best characters on the list are from franchises sony abandoned, Jak and dexter, sly Cooper, twisted metal, (at least ratchet and clank got a good game even though it was short, 40$ launch) or they arent even sony characters like dante and big daddy.

This whole conversation reminds me why I hate the direction sony has gone this gen. They do nothing unique any more , just 3rd person action adventures, Jack and dexter sly cooper and twisted metal were great ips, even parappa the rapper was unique, your not the first person on here ive heard defend thier MP with games from last gen, resistance, warhawk, what happened to the diversity in sony games....

lol You have a reading comprehension deficit. Mario is only more recognizable than other way better characters today because, (as I've said, and I thought I was clear but I guess not) it was one of the first videogame characters to ever appear on the scene. If it came out today, without all these years to develop his games and no one would seriously believe he was good. That was what I meant, read carefully next time. He only became iconic over the years because of that, not because it was "good". lol. The fact his games were good helped him also, but lets face it. He is a one dimensional character with the depth of a brick. Nothing wrong with that. He serves his purposes for the genre he's in but is seriously anyone interested in his psychology? His motives for doing what he does? lol dont make me laugh

Smash Bros is a formula that can't work for a Sony platform because the people who buy it just aren't interested in concepts like that. Sony's had their multiplayer games this gen, but third parties have been holding the fort on that on the console. Why does Sony need to compete with them? It's the sign of a healthy platform to have all the big third party games to cover that need.

If Sony's been doing the most diverse stuff this gen. Are games like Astro Bot and Ratchet and Clank good enough for Nintendo fans who need their cartoon platformers? No? Of course not, because they're not Nintendo. How many variants of games starring Nintendo characters do you need? Mario Kart, Mario Tennis, Mario Strikers, Mario Vaping, Super Mario Tax Audit... and it repeats for the next gen. And Nintendo gamers want to complain about ANOTHER console's diversity?

Well you clearly care lol. What are you even on about with the gamescape, more fake narratives?

As for your question, everybody cares about characters, and themes, and solid gameplay. Smash has all of these, the base gameplay is simplistic yet well done. You can discount the sum of its parts and its brand with such excuses.

Answer - Yea, if the unique characters were good enough and the game was as polished.

Counter-Question - Would you have actually played Uncharted/Last of Us/Horizon if they weren't as graphically impressive due to being first party creations? NO fucker would of played the first uncharted game if it didn't have naughtydog on the label, it was incredibly outdated in terms of TPS gameplay for its time, a b grade movie with a terrible last quarter of zombie/mutants (lol much like far cry).

Answer - No you wouldn't of. Don't pretend you are any different.

This whole argument boils down to this.

Mario stands out completely in a crowd.

Nathan Drake is generic tosser white male action hero #2344235234123 , I couldn't care less about his life either.

No matter how hard you try, you can't change history with a "what if?" scenario to base your argument. This simple fact is: Mario is more famous and liked of a video game character than Nathan Drake ever will be.

Yes, thats a fact. Never denied it. I'll go even further: Mario is more famous and liked than ANY other videogame character. Doesnt make it less true that Mario is still a sh*t character. Being famous =/= as being good. James sunderland of Silent Hill 2 is a multi-dimensional, well written character yet I bet barely anyone would recognize him outside of SH fans. So yeah, stop using "popularity" as an argument for quality debates

Thats cool and all but Mario is still sh*t. Your whole argument is composed of "Nathan Drake sucks". Ok, cool, but you still havent explained to me how Mario is a good character. I'm still waiting

@jaydan: what I love about Nintendo is they are about the GAME, not deep character develepment and back story and narratives I dont give a shit about. Mario games are FUN and thats all Mario needs to be, fun. If I wanted super deep narrative or character development, I'll read a book. I dont play games for that, I play games to have fun and I find it sad that sony has abandoned that. Ratchet and clank is the only game that remembered this aspect of gaming and I refuse to buy a 200 dollar accessory I dont want to play astro boy.

Twisted metal did not need deep charachter development or a deep narrative to be a great game, or parrapa, they were just fun. This is why Mario is great, his games scream fun and throw all the other bs in the wind. When you sit down and play Mario it feels like your playing a video game, not watching an interactive B movie.

@TheEroica: i mean, criticizing a game designed for MP for being boring SP is pretty confusing IMO. Sure some games do well straddling both. Unreal Tournament "sucks" alone too, but nobody (should be) scoring it except as a tournament game, even better with friends. Same with Super Smash.

No reason I give will be justified, hes a shell that is likeable, adapts to many different games well and stands out in a crowd.

There is no special essay I can write that changes this.

Nintendo's brand power through their franchises and characters just Dwarves the competition. It's that simple, no need to be so defensive about the truth. Sony can't make great characters or good multiplayer games... once again, you have shiny 3rd person action games as your 1 trick-pony, be happy with it.

In many ways, the more realistic and "normal" you make characters, the more boring they can become... funny how that works in a medium where the potential fantasies are endless. But I don't expect you movie-game lovers to care about anything other than "my god, my game is almost like a movie!"

@xantufrog: I'm not criticizing it for being MP while desiring an SP experience... I'm playing the game that was presented to me. I'm playing all the modes and while I can recognize the fan service and thoughtful polish, I do not think that a game that translates to someone's mind strictly as an "MP" game gets a pass when it presents SP modes as well.... My feelings on the game are based on playing the... Well, game!

I don't hate smash... I just don't get the hype.

Yeah the current sony honchos have checked out. They focus on things that succeed and purge failures. Business wise they have the best balance between the shit they do and stuff they rely 3rd party to chase. There is no competition for them nintendo software biz is small potatoes to them. The stuff they do are some of the best and sell. If you want different and unique things its Japan studio as all there western companies are on this story telling cinematic mode. Japan studio is mostly there to support VR now days it seems. Maybe once in a while they collab with someone. If your in to VR though Sony still has those past quality of actually being the unique one. They can do Sony and a good poorman nintendo if you will.

Why should we pretend like your opinion of what is "top-tier" matters? What even is top-tier? What's the criteria?
Smash Bros. is just a really fun game to a lot of people, that's why it's getting praise. You not liking it doesn't change the general consensus that it's a great game.

You couldn't even answer my simple question. If the game had no Nintendo characters, and was a third party release, would you have even bothered with this game? I sure know you sure as hell wouldn't be hyped for it. Do you think a game like this is strong enough on its own to warrant a genre and get hyped over?

Your counter question doesn't even make any sense. Whoever made Uncharted, it would have been a huge hit because it has good gameplay and looks good. Sony doesn't get the same instant free pass that Nintendo does with games among their fandom. Nintendo fans are unquestioningly happy with whatever they get, no matter how mediocre it could be.

You don't see Sony owners hyping up The Order and buying millions and millions of copies just because it's a Sony game. They know it's not good, and it didn't perform well. It's the general consensus. Unlike a Nintendo IP which is instantly worshipped just for having the label. You know a lot of you don't even care about the half the games the characters in Smash come from. Just being Nintendo is good enough.

You honestly suggesting that if we don't like EVERYONE of the 70+ characters we are hypocrits or something?

Funnily enough, I have played and enjoyed the majority of them. probably the only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head is Olimar and the Villager/Dogwoman. OH NO.

Even the worst on that tier list come from well established/recognised franchises and are portrayed incredibly well.

You can go around in circles all day, facts still remain, Sony has barely any memorable characters in comparison, they cannot make great MP games ... and 5 years , 80 million sales has done nothing to improve that... infact its just shrinking.

I'm also gonna add my two cents on All-Stars as well. All-Stars main problem was it's lack of iconic exclusive characters and Sony didn't have all of them at their dispose due to copyrights by other companies and the reason why it works for Nintendo is the fact they have all of their iconic characters. Personally I never liked the scoring system in the game, only scoring points by performing super attacks is lame, in my book. In Smash Bros. any attack can potentially finish you so you're always on your toes, in All-Stars, I was just absentmindedly spamming normal attacks until my super filled up. If you happen to not hit anyone with your super then it's back to spamming "ineffective" attacks again. Really, All-Stars was a disappointing Smash Bros. knockoff and the best thing Sony can do right now is give Smash more characters alongside Cloud, because they sure as hell aren't going to compete.

Are you honestly saying that people were that hyped on Naughty Dog after the Jak games? Quit lyin'. It was Uncharted that got them their superstar status. They were merely a "good" dev before. No one knew how well they'd translate to more realistic looking adventures after making cartoon games. And they did a fine job. They had to earn that. Already being dishonest in the convo.

You honestly suggesting that if we don't like EVERYONE of the 70+ characters we are hypocrits or something?

I mean, if you're willing to go through it with a fine tooth comb, then yeah. It doesn't matter if you like all the characters, it's the fact that they're Nintendo characters, and that's good enough for the Nintendo fandom no matter what the gameplay is like. You wouldn't give this game a second look if Nintendo didn't smack it with their mushroom stamp of approval. Same with Mario Party, same with Mario Tennis, Same with Mario Strikers.

If it doesn't have those same Nintendo characters in it giving you the warm and fuzzies, you want nothing to do with it. It's programming of the highest order. A manchild indoctrination if you will.

Because despite what Sony fanboys would have you believe, PlayStation has been hit just as hard as any other platform in the exclusives department. They are a good 5-10 games ahead of Xbox after 5 years, 80 million .... 5-10 games... (of any note)

One of the reasons I don't buy into the mindless Cow circle-jerk here, even with massive 1st party studios you can count the big games on maybe 2 hands. And then you can count the genre-diversity on 1 hand.... or 1 finger (satire).

So many great franchises dead or multiplat, hell they couldn't even keep Gran Turismo relevant (but somehow racers are now nothing according to the law of @BenjaminBanklin the great goal post mover of 2019, if it fits it sits right buddy?)

Nintendo, yea sure, brings out the same franchises over generations, but theirs have mostly all survived the test of time, Nintendo will overtake Sony/Microsoft in exclusive diversity this year... in its 2nd year of life.

PC and Switch offer the most high quality diversity there is. PS4 offers little, and what little it offers is great (bloodborne, god of war) but considering the platforms success, its a basic bitch HTPC on a budget with about 5 exclusive games worth owning.

Congrats Cows, you are the Xbox360 of this generation, jack of all trades, cheap as chips, master of none.

Yaaaawwwwwwn. New installments of the same old games, same as everyone else. Hell, at least Sony was able to bring some new IPs to the table that broke out this gen. Spider-Man, Bloodborne and Horizon say hello. Hell, even God of War got a full overhaul. The best game on Switch this gen was a Wii U holdover. You know, the Wii U, the same console sheep swore up and down that Nintendo wouldn't abandon and ended up leaving high and dry.

The only thing that's really giving Switch any pull is the portability aspect of it. Sure the games are ass-ugly, but it's a Nintendo handheld. And since Nintendo fans are the least demanding gamers out there next to the bots, it's good enough for them. Playstation is the place to be for console gaming this gen while Switch is just another Nintendo console squeezed into a tablet. The same old rut, no good third party games, and the ones that come to it are the worst version by a long measure. Boring.

But, it's more interesting than the Xbox One, really. But, that's like saying watching grass growing is more interesting than watching paint dry.

@BenjaminBanklin: we get it, you're a bigger Xbox Fanboy than Sony

This is what delusional fanboys refuse to acknowledge ... the roster in Smash is a huge part of the whole experience ... if you are trying to put apart the gameplay and the roster (which is also excellent BTW, it basically created a new subgenre), you are doing the game wrong ... Yes, maybe Smash wouldn't sell as much if it was filled with generic characters, but is not ... its filled with some of the most important characters in the history of gaming and that's a why is one of the most important franchises ever.

Now, even with characters like Cloud (arguably the most important PlayStation character in the 90's) the game would bomb if it wasn't fun (just like it happened to PlayStation All Stars) ... and guess what, it is a lot of fun, is probably the best local multiplayer franchise ever. So trust me ... if Smash were multiplat ... it would outsell all other first party titles.

@BenjaminBanklin:

>Uncharted

>Good gameplay

Lol

Exactly. I bought PS All Stars and stopped playing it after a few hours and returned it. The only way to win was spam supers as you said. It was a very poor attempt at the Smash formula. I was surprised Sony was able to bring together as many characters as they did for that game, even if at the time I didn't know who most of them were. A fighting game's roster doesn't mean shit if the gameplay sucks.

What makes Smash so great is that it is simple to pick up and play, and it is hella fun with friends. Smash inevitably comes out whenever friends come over.

Spiderman- not really a new IP there have been a bunch of spiderman games, this is just the first one exclusive to sony

Bloodbourne- not really a new IP, more like a dark souls game with a new name

Horizon- yup thats new

God of war- no new IP, yeah a new direction, a direction i dont like because it took a hack n slash game and turned it into an over the shoulder action adventure with no jump button

It's ok to be basic b1tch.... I am in other interests.

I still haven't purchased Smash, but I did get the new Amiibos! It's always nice to get new Amiibos.

Why are you guys still fighting with the Lemow?

Dude, you're a well known hermit who cant stand consoles. I'm 100% sure you havent even played the games you feel to have the legitimacy to be talking about. So yeah, move along

@techhog89: ??

here we go again...

You need some help moving all those goal posts? I bet they sure are heavy. LOL!

Make all the excuses you want, Sony has been stomping a mudhole in the collective Switch lineup with sweet new content. The only new IPs from Nintendo this gen was literal paper, and a dumb spaghetti-arm people game that they had the audacity to market like a tournament fighter. A game so weird and stupid they had to outsource to Platinum so they could take the heat for it. Nintendo and their non-fighters.

These are not good competitive games for people over 12. Too bad the median age of the average Nintendo fan is like, 35.

Yea, but the genre and SP/MP Diversity is far better.

Nah. When that "diversity" means terrible games with springy-arm people and playing with paper, then Nintendo can keep it.

Spiderman is not new, Bloodborne is a godamn damn purchased Souls games , Horizon ok.

a) It's new for Sony. Doesn't matter if it's an existing license, plus it's the first great Spidey game b) Aren't non-Sony fans tired of this dumb argument? Nintendo and Microsoft can't have it, and it's co-produced with Japan Studio. That's like saying ARMS isn't Nintendo's because it's mostly developed by Platinum, or Pokemon because they don't fully own the rights. Now what's up?

God of War tooks elements of souls and made itself better (or not if you liked tradional hack n slash) . Zelda took elements open world games and made it better (or not depending if you prefered linear zelda) ... don't be a hypocrite and hold one higher than the other.

I don't understand what you're arguing here. Both Breath of the Wild and God of War 2018 improved on their formulas significantly with a fresh overhaul. BotW is the game of the gen... too bad they had to borrow it from the Wii U for Switch to truly have a great game this gen. Seems like Switch has to depend on the Wii U library a LOT for good content.

Games are very good looking, Smash, Mario, Zelda and others, yea they rely on art-style over techinical... but hey only techinical matters, until you point out PC multiplats beat them LOL

No, they don't look good. They're cutting corners technically, they're extremely low res and ports of multiplats are in lower settings than the lowest PC setting. They look bad docked, and are vomitous undocked.

C'mon, man.

Yea, amazing exclusives that focus on gameplay over graphics, they know what they like. not movie games. "Oh hey, your excellent games are crap because they don't have a Ginger Woman with REAL HAIR RENDERING in a generic Ubisoft style TPS with robo dinos"

Yep, that's the jealousy talking. Too bad Nintendo will never do anything as ambitious as Sony and other major third party publishers. Breath of the Wild was the only thing, but it's held back by limited Nintendo hardware, per usual. Oh, and BotW borrows gameplay elements directly from Assassins Creed, climb anything, map unlocking towers etc. I believe you owe Ubisoft an apology.

For the basic b1tch xbox 360 value budget consumor casual yes.

Uh huh, because gamers would be so much better off buying Nintendo's over-priced and under-content kiddie games and paying for the worst online service ever on top of that.

3rd parties have improved immensely, not to mention bringing 3rd parties handheld (excellent) .. all console versions are far worse , at least they have portability.

Portability is not a good trade off for the ugly games the Switch is getting. You don't hear people bragging about mobile games for a reason. And no, they're not improving. Even if the game doesn't look like completely squintable trash, multiplat Switch games have to abandon features because of the limited format of the console. Storage space alone makes it not a good alternative to any version of a current gen game.

says the guy probably playing multiplats and shelved his little handful of exclusives to be played maybe once next generation as "amazing classics" lol.

At least Sony gave me great first party games with their console as reason to buy it. They're the best publisher of the current gen right now. Nintendo's gonna have so much downtime this gen it's not even funny. That's what happens when you buy a platform third parties are still iffy on supporting. They don't care if the Switch is a hit, they can't do anything with it. It's too underpowered. Plus too many Nintendo fans don't support them anyway. They still got mushrooms on the brain.

Another goal post mover. I'm sorry Nintendo is stuck in a permanent rut for the rest of their gaming days, and you're okay with that. Doesn't look like Nintendo has anymore GotYs up their sleeves for the rest of the Switch's lifetime. Too bad. Listen, you want you to pay full price for years for Nintendo's scant kiddie content that's on you. Grown men got to play the best of the best this year with GoW, RDR2, and Spider-Man leading the way. Nintendo can't hope to match that from this point on. Smash Bros is not a good alternative to that.

No adult should ever want to be caught dead playing a game like Animal Crossing and Pokemon. Nintendo consoles are for people whose shame died a long time a ago.

@BenjaminBanklin: so your example is Ark? A game that's pretty much a scam on all platforms? Also, Ark isn't an exclusive, you're just grasping at straws

It's an example of a game that looks and runs like super ass on the Switch. If they knew the game didn't run well on other platforms, I don't know why Switch was even brought up in the conversation when it came to ports. Even the mobile version didn't come off this bad, and it's running less effects.

@BenjaminBanklin: No adult should be caught playing Animal Crossing or Pokemon, but Spiderman is the game for grown ups? Lol, you shouldn't be so self conscious about the stuff you play dude.

Pokemon is enjoyed by hundreds of millions of people across all age groups throughout the world. Don't think they care about this as much as you do.

Oh yeah and enjoy Kingdom Hearts 3 also big boy. ??

@BenjaminBanklin: Ark runs like ass everywhere and the developers are big time scammers. Your argument sucks Donkey Kong's balls

Tell me this. Would you rather be a grown man going to see a Spider-Man movie, or a grown man going to see a Pokemon movie? I rest my case. And I'm not playing Kingdom Hearts III. I am not the audience anymore. That's the difference between the current Nintendo fandom and everyone else is the ability to grow out of certain types of games.

Would it kill you to admit the game looks the worst on your console by far? There's no damage controlling that. The Switch can't do everything. That's why streaming has become an option with games like RE7, and I have ZERO idea why you guys would port beg for anything that looks better than a Sonic the Hedgehog game.

@BenjaminBanklin: Well I'm not a grown man, but don't see what difference that makes. Both Spiderman and Pokemon are fun franchises, who cares so long as people are enjoying themselves. I've talked to lots of folks who are hyped for the Detective Pikachu film this year, many of whom are huge Marvel fans also. Plus I wasn't even knocking Kingdom Hearts 3, it will no doubt be a great game for PS4/XB1 owners.

I mean if you feel like some things are too embarrassing to play because you've grown out of them yourself then cool, but no need to game shame others for their choices. A lot of people view gaming in general as a childish activity, but obviously we all disagree with them on that.

@BenjaminBanklin: no shit that the Switch version of Ark is bad, because the devs are shit, just like your replies

Maybe I shouldn't mention that of the 200-300 people at the Smash midnight release pretty much all of them looked high school or college age. Cause you know, Nintendo is only for the kiddies.

Indeed. ?

Stolen from the post by @fedor a couple of days ago.

You're that mad? I thought I was saying things that weren't exactly a secret here.

@mandzilla: Woo hoo! I’m part of the upper 2%, if I lived in the U.S. I feel so elite. ?

@Archangel3371: Yeah, that would make you an elite sheep elder I think.

@mandzilla: Hmm. Elite Sheep Elder you say. I like it! ?

I guess the game is warming me a bit now. I really don't like how some of the battles in the spirit world are just so stacked against you, but it makes for a more incrimental pace... And adds some environmental variety so whatever I guess.

Unlocking character in spirit world is a drudge... I've played probably 30 matches and unlocked only a few fighters which is meh, because I just keep playing with Mario because he has the mos compelling move set with his decending spin and power uppercut. The water canon is a waste of time though...

Online I've only really dabbled in a few times, but I am genuinely enjoying my push to more fighters in the spirit world. I've found that auto selecting the best spirits is the way to go in matching up against fighters, but hopefully that'll change.

I think I may have missed the boat of this game being must have special throughout its history and I still really don't get how it's still so popular, but it's not a shallow game. The combat is fun and strategic and the more I play it, the more I like it.

@TheEroica: Its alot to get used to if your not familiar with the past games, just a heads up if your unlocking characters through the spirit mode make sure you back out of the game to the main menu every 10 minutes or so to trigger enemy encounters for new characters, i was able to unlock the full roster (not for spirit mode but the game itself) after about 25 hours of spirit mode by backing out to the main menu after every 4-5 fights to trigger encounters.

I tried to back into on the Wii, just didn't do it for me. Slid by the wayside, but I will say I'm not that much into the fighter genre.

@BenjaminBanklin: does it hurt your feelings that everyone knows Nintendo's IP more than Sony's first party games? Lol, your insecurities show a lot in this thread that no one bought PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale