So remember when we thought the Corona virus being created in a lab was a crazy conspiracy?

Wowsa, I will simply agree to disagree. lol

Well said. Always heard how Americans were there to help others but this pandemic taught me they are both immature and selfish. Between this and the insurrection I'm ashamed for the first time of being American. We have no right to call ourselves the best.

@Stevo_the_gamer: You don't get it, the media was just pwnin teh conz. See that's fine.

Trump trolls, media trolls, it's all fun and games.

Mmmhm.

@Stevo_the_gamer: Of course you can disagree, but can you logically disagree in your mind?

If so what are your logical and factual steps to your conclusion?

@kadin_kai: I'm not going to waste my time explaining the basics of depravity from a communist regime. You can continue to use the state sponsored media bullet (no pun intended) points.

Genetic Fallacy much?

Your arguments honestly say a lot about our failings to be completely humbled by a "communist" regime. Say what you will about CCP's general policies, but the way they handled the situation put us to shame.

@Stevo_the_gamer: It has absolutely nothing to do with political systems.

It’s about choices made by governments and their priorities.

It’s no coincidence that highly indebted countries with low interests rates such as the US were reluctant to lockdown and overly eager to reopen.

Moreover, political and economic systems are actually a spectrum of policies. Redistribution of wealth is a large factor of communist and socialist political systems and dare I ask did you receive a stimulus cheque?

Ask any reasonable political scientist to describe the Chinese system and they won’t describe it as Communist.

Similarly if the US was truly democratic then there would have been a President John Kerry and a President Hilary Clinton.

And if the US was truly capitalist, then there wouldn’t be any stimulus cheques or bailout of companies.

It’s all a spectrum of policies so don’t be childishly black & white, the world is mostly grey.

Indeed. In general, Asian countries handled the virus much much better.

@kadin_kai: I generally agree with your points (which is fairly rare for me based upon your posting history).

China is communist in name only. Authoritarian, statist, crony capitalism.

However, the most important differentiating variable for pandemic response in some Asian countries is the greater degree of collectivist mindset vs individualism which is a material divide between East and West.

This extends across the people in general, but also to the paternalistic instincts of the political leadership. China, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, etc. They are all also advanced economies, which means they have the money and infrastructure too.

Interest rates and indebtedness is a red herring. We already know that US sovereign debt is effectively unlimited and we know how to use interest/inflation/monetary policy to absorb the shock.

Capitalism is already highly efficient at redistribution of wealth via the market. Americans get around this by narrowly defining 'redistribution' to fit their political paradigms. Having said that, there will be great attempts to frame stimulus checks as something other than redistribution. LOL.

Truly capitalist is and has always been a misnomer. Capitalism describes only an underlying economic philosophy. It was never intended to address governance and the role of govt. This is also the strength of capitalism as it can be paired with many forms of governance, with variations of controls, and it will simply adapt to the ruleset.

Regardless, you nail it with your last line. The world is indeed grey. You won't get a lot of Americans to agree to that though because they are highly socialized to think otherwise.

Oh sure. By 1. covering up the severity of the outbreak in the beginning in complicity with the WHO. In the end it was weeks that were lost

and 2. using that precious time to prepare...

China Covered Up Coronavirus To Hoard Medical Supplies, DHS Report Finds

And here you are, you people, patting them on the back for their heroism. What's next? A CCP badge to show your support openly? Or are you past that point already?

That old song. Of course it isn't "communist". Communism, true communism, requires capitalism to 'not exist'. Last time i looked capitalsim was alive and kicking.

The way is the goal. And some time ago i heard the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party, is still on the socialist path.

Or you know... all the other stuff I listed.

The CCP are not the good guys here, but there is no denying their effectiveness. You can keep pointing towards their early censorship all you want. But the overall picture, and overall results, show that China was hit much less hard than europe or the US were.

Say what you will about the ethics of Xi Jinping, but I would argue he is probably the most talented world leader out there right now.

The fact of the matter, China's culture is far more fit for dealing with viruses. Our dietary habits, our individualistic culture both make it hard for us as societies to deal with pandemics.

@Maroxad: Is it surprising that an authoritarian regime which butchers/places millions in concentration camps was able to quarantine their populaces by the barrel of their guns, and then manipulate data/withhold pertinent information to the world/hold medical professionals hostage while lying to the world? Not at all.

I've read the bolded portion three times, yet don't understand what you mean here. I feel like I'm missing some context, and I'd like you to expand on it.

I thought I'd narrowed in on it, but it seems at odds with the non-bolded statement which follows since I wouldn't characterize the stimulus checks as part of the market. What's my roadblock here?

If I am not mistaken, the Chinese government was even locking apartment buildings and not allowing people to leave. This in itself killed many people who actually needed medical care but weren't even allowed to leave to see doctors. They violated nearly every basic human right the people on here cheerleading China's response claim to hold dear. All the while lying from day 1 about the situation.

If you had a parent or grandparent that needed dialysis to live? Tough shit, had we adopted China's plan the front door to their home would have been nailed shut and they'd have been left to die. They punished doctors who tried to warn the rest of the world. Li Wenliang attempted to warn people in December. For doing so, he was arrested and forced to sign a statement saying he made false claims (which we now know weren't false). There were 7 others punished by the Chinese government for trying to warn the rest of us early on. It wasn't for another 3 weeks before China actually admitted to the outbreak.

But you people want to commend China for transparency and handling this correctly? China handled it the same way China handles everything, with threats, violence, and deception. People praising China right now couldn't be more ignorant of the situation and what they did.

@eoten: I commend China for achieving its goals. Whether you disagree with the means, it is factually undeniable that china's methods lead to much better results.

Lockdowns work, we have known this since the Bubonic Plague. Whether it was the right policy is a different question entirely, due to other circumstances, but going back to the original point, and that ultimately depends on priorities and ideals. But I would say, the numbers speak for themselves. China recovered faster, with fewer deaths and lower economic harm from the virus. No conspiracy here. China, both the government and its people, just knew what to do.

The results are what they are. China, both the government, as well as the people handled the situation much better than we did.

While our individualist culture has its boons, they are clearly nowhere near as effective, as collectivist mindsets are during crises like these.

@Maroxad: You can get a lot done under a dictatorship. Very efficient.

This all sort of assumes that the number of deaths reported by China is accurate though.

@palasta: and the DHS is always right of course. Well at least one US intelligence agency is subscribing to the lab leak theory now, wonder is it the same one that claimed Iraq had WMDs?

@eoten: I was in Zhuhai, China at the onset of the pandemic (read the original GS COVID thread).

Whenever there was a single case of COVID, the entire block and the blocks within the garden would have been locked down. I think this still applies today.

However, they weren’t left alone to starve, food and medical supplies were provided. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, if you had a serious medical condition, obviously you’ll be taken to the hospital. Duh!

Regarding Li Wenliang, you’re right! Authorities in Wuhan did cover it up! But as according to the Chinese and a US intelligence report (published around 7-8 months ago), the central government had no idea, they reacted as soon as they found out.

How the hell would you know if they achieved their goals or not when we've already proven on here that they've been lying from the start? Has it ever dawned on you that there's a damn good chance they're lying about those "goals" too?

China could round up every person with HIV and execute them, would you still commend them for achieving their goals and eradicating that disease?

Dude, you've changed your alleged location on here so many times in the last few months pretending to be wherever is most convenient that you have no credibility when you say you were somewhere. When you lie as much as you do (or when China lies as much as they do) normal people stop paying attention.

They would have to fudge the numbers quite heavily, to even come close to the situation in the rest of the world. News travels fast, and the fact of the matter is, China opened up way faster than the rest, and if it truly was anywhere near as bad as it is in the rest of the world, news WOULD have spread. We would have noticed it in economic productivity and China's economy is stronger than ever.

They succeeded.

Because if COVID was still serious in China. We would have known from the country's economic productivity. From a utilitarian perspective... I would. But I would also villify them harder for their inhumane methods. Unlike you, I can give credit where credit is due.

By goals, I assume their goals were the same as the rest of us, stop the spread of the disease. Considering the country's productivity, it is fair to assume they did just that. Currently there is no evidence that suggests the virus is particularly prevelant in China, any outbursts are quickly shut down, and life for most of the part is normal. Helathy skepticism is good, but there is no evidence to suggest the narrative you want to go with, and that is not healthy skepticism.

And is it really all that surprising, that China, alongside other asian countries did so well, while the west failed miserably?

• In China, they adopted mask usage pretty much on the outset of the pandemic. China, already had the masks in stock, and there was no need to ration them to the people who needed them the most. In the west, merely wearing a mask initially made you a target of prejudice. Even people who did maintain social distancing were sometimes mocked, for allegedly not wanting to risk their own lives over a 0.2% death rate disease (which is a strawman, people wanted to halt the spread of the disease).
• Westerners had a habit of downplaying or even outright denying the virus. How many times have we heard the stuff about it only having a 0.2% mortality rate. All while completely missing the point.
• China has MUCH better nutritional habits than us. Western diets are pretty bad on average, compared to asian diets.
• While in the west you had people mass gather at churches every sunday, China, on the nature of being significantly less religious, didn't have churches which severely propagated the virus.
• In the west we had mass protests, protesting the lockdowns, Chinese people in general, on took the pandemic quite seriously.
• China still most likely remembers the effects of their previous SARS related pandemic. Thus their culture could quickly adapt to a new one. The west hasnt seen a pandemic in ages.

It isn't just China either, barring India, most Asian countries fared much better than us western and eastern european countries. The fact of the matter is, we westerners were being very selfish, and the virus preyed us hard for that. Say what you will about collectivism, but it is clear that collectivist countries in general fared much better.

Besides didnt you admit as much yourself?

@eoten: No I have not. Since the pandemic, I was in Zhuhai China until April 2020 and since I’ve been in HK. Perhaps you’re confused.

Tell me where have I said I’ve been in the past few months?

@Maroxad: Forgive me if I have an extremely hard time believing China only had 4,636 deaths due to covid. My gut is, they aren't reporting all the covid deaths as covid.

But even if you're correct, and they did report the accurate number, I would never support a government actually locking down their citizens the way they did. It's sets an extremely bad precedent.

I am pretty sure it is understated, but that its stats are closer to what other east asian countries have. Which is still way below what we westerners deal with.

Again, this is the virtues of a collectivist culture.

I am a utilitarian. The lockdowns were cruel, but they seem to have been effective in containing the virus.

Ah, the end justifies the means. Again, agree to disagree.

@Stevo_the_gamer: The goal is to minimize material harm. Stuff that is actually measurable. And all evidence indicates China succeeded in just that. If the end leads to a greater reduction of harm, than the harm the means did, then I am all for it. Especially if that harm from the means is mostly done to the immaterial.

There are two basic forms of utilitarianism - act and rule. Rule utilitarians would probably agree with you, but act utilitarians might emphasise the lack of personal freedom as being detrimental to society's overall happiness. Like areas where there was no outbreak, and little to no risk of infection - why should people follow the same rules as areas where the pandemic was rife? It's a big issue in larger countries like the USA, I think.

By Utilitarian, I focus on Well-Being, which is not hte same as happiness. Every measurable piece of data suggests that east asia learnt from previous SARS and MERS outbreaks.

Freedom can mean a lot of things. Tell me, how free are the people who were hospitalized by the virus? How free are the people who died as a result of our selfishness? How free are businesses who were destroyed by the virus, regardless of lockdown status?

Negative Freedom means very little in the face of Positive Freedom.

But utility is far more complicated than just health. Would you like everyone to live their lives in a bubble, for their wellbeing? This would maximise your interpretation of utility, surely. My point is there's a difference between informed citizens making appropriate decisions and blanket rules which treat everyone like dumb cattle.

I'm not disagreeing that lockdowns are effective. All I'm saying is that there's more to utility than order.

First of all, you are clearly a well read and intelligent person, I was looking forward to your reply, and you didn't disappoint. This conversation could be very interesting.

I would argue from both a health and fiscial perspective. As for china's case, they crack down harder in regions where the pandemic is, such as the complete lockdown of Wuhan.

As for Utility, I would argue the temporary loss of freedom. Makes up for the long term loss of freedom caused by the virus. Not everyone has to be an idiot, but a few can ruin it for everyone. Here in sweden our lockdown limitations were far more lax than they were in the rest of the west, most people adhered to social distancing guidelines, but all it took was a few imbeciles who didn't adhere nor care about the guidelines, to ruin it for everyone, and sweden is as a result one of the hardest hit countries in the world by the virus.

I o agree that there is more to utility than order. In this case, I put the priorities of the long term benefits of eliminating the virus before it has any chance to mutate and become seasonal, over the short term restrictions on negative freedom.

Ah, I get where you're coming from now, and I don't want to get stuck defending lawlessness in a pandemic. Lockdown helped delay spread while we got vaccines etc. sorted. The bit that bugs me is the complete lack of public communication about viral "behaviours". And that still continues to today. Stay indoors at all times and bolt all your doors and windows was the general advice people felt they were receiving, which probably isn't the best when you've got a highly contagious virus being shed in indoor spaces all the time. Police in the UK were out stopping couples who were walking, socially distanced, in a park, with a drink in their hands for "picnicking". Or there were cases where people were told to get away from their doorsteps by law enforcement, because officers didn't understand the logic - just their interpretation of the rules. And who can blame them. Nobody knew what they were doing and everyone in the country was miserable and angry because the lines drawn felt arbitrary and patronising.

Maybe that's in part because public health meetings were held in secret, so there was zero trickle down of knowledge. I don't think that situation was exclusive to the UK either. If people were better informed, we'd understand the logic and not feel so caged, but that never seemed to be much of a goal. I guess the UK is such a small country that the restrictions were just about tolerable, but I wonder if applying similar rules throughout a vast and politically/geographically diverse country like the USA, which has been at flashpoint for a while now, wouldn't have been a recipe for disaster.

Also, this is about the most amicable discussion I've ever had on Political Gamers. :) Cheers.

I definately agree with you that there could have been more transperancy.

People's distrust in experts is at an all time high. And the west, not having had to deal with SARS or MERS, often had its citizenry get complacent, and not properly understand why the rules what they were, leading to what you said, the rules feeling arbitary and patronising.

I have a lot of respect for WHO. But WHO needs to do a better job communicating from here on out. And not just with COVID. I remember how upset gamers were when Gaming Disorder was added as a mental illness, with people thinking that it applied to any gamer, when in reality it really only referred to those who were hopelessly addicted to gaming.

Ah, an actual "whataboutism". Alleging information regarding chinese officials covering up the severity of the virus are just western propaganda.

With all due respect, if (s)he is in Hong Kong, fear of reprisal is extremelylikely. Especially a region which China stifles/monitors all dissent.

@Stevo_the_gamer: “He,” is in Hong Kong at the moment and no, there are no reprisals.

The only thing that does have its problems is if you call for Hong Kong independence.

That is a separate story, but just to be quick, if Hong Kong became independent, I wonder where it will get its water (75% from Mainland), gas, electricity, military, security. How expensive will food become (already the top 1-3 most expensive cities to live)...hmm yes independence...suicidal thoughts huh.

Is that your opinion, or the CCPs? I know, it's redundant.

What else is there...

____

White House defends Dr Fauci over lab leak emails

Dr Fauci told CNN on Thursday it was "nonsense" to infer from the email any cosy relationship between himself and the figures behind the Wuhan lab research.

"You can misconstrue it however you want," he said, "that email was from a person to me saying 'thank you' for whatever it is he thought I said, and I said that I think the most likely origin is a jumping of species. I still do think it is, at the same time as I'm keeping an open mind that it might be a lab leak."

He added: "The idea I think is quite farfetched that the Chinese deliberately engineered something so that they could kill themselves as well as other people. I think that's a bit far out."

_____

From 'only Trumpists qanon conspiracy nutjobs would say such a thing', to 'well, maybe' by the hailed experts.

Fauci gives further insight into his expertise, by giving his opinion on what government bodies are willing to do to their own people. I wonder if he has any knowledge of communist history in asia.

@eoten: Not an opinion, it’s a fact. Hong Kong is highly dependent on the Mainland for practically everything.

People do not think when they say they want independence. A pretty good example is Brexit.

In the past twenty years over 80% of all FDA into Hong Kong is actually funnelled into the Mainland, HK is simply a gateway.

There is no HK army, security is provided by the mainland.

There used to be massive water shortages in HK until water was diverted from the mainland.

Over 95% of all food and veg consumed in HK,....you guessed it comes from the Mainland.

There are no oil refineries in HK, there’s a pipeline from...the Mainland.

The ageing and soon to be decommissioned power plants provides less than half the requirements of the city, the rest... yup from the Mainland.

During the first and second wave of COVID, there weren’t enough doctors and nurses, guess who came to help,...doctors, nurses and technicians from the mainland.

The HK dollar is pegged against the US dollar, guess who provides liquidity?...Bank of China, the figure is actually 7x M2 in circulation stores for emergencies.

So yes, it’s a fact, HK is ridiculously dependent on the mainland!

So yeah independence would be catastrophic for this city. And that is what HK is, a city, not a country.

@kadin_kai: Contradicted yourself in the first two sentences. Whether or not HK could sustain itself without China is irrelevant, you should be free to discuss liberty without the fear of being jailed, placed in a concentration camps, and/or executed.

I have to agree with you, id like to say a big eff you to china, those pos turds.

On the other hand their policies were effective no doubt, they contained the virus so hard in a country with 4 times our population. So your point about parent or grandparent being left to die is a moot point, their containment policies did save more lives. The one thing the dictator communists do very well that capitalists dont is to weigh the greater good. Sometimes there is no good choice, whether you let 1000 people die or you save 1 million. Capitalist countries don't like making those choices, and won't unless it gets to a point where theres no choice. In the end they don't make that decision and instead use half baked measures. Trust me if covid fatalities were worse than the 4% or so, say it was like 20-30%, then the military would be enforcing martial law, you can bet your ass you would be shot dead if you even took a single step out of your house. Your pitiful pea shooter gun won't do anything to fully decked out US soldiers or even modified drones.

In regards to covid, the US alone 500,000 people died, who knows how many more have lung issues or long covid and who's live are changed forever, the numbers are pobably in the millions. China prevented that from happening so good on them.

Believing the CCP would be unwilling to murder millions of their own subjects to advance their geopolitical aims is ridiculous. The CCP is a brutal, dictatorial regime that places no value on individual lives. They would gladly slaughter an obscene number of people under their rule if they believe it would give them an upper hand against the USA.

For Fauci to characterize such a notion as "a bit far out" is what is indeed very far out. I bet he knows better, but thinks the rest of us are too stupid to know better.

@comeonman: And you're reading your interpretation into it based on party lines.

Based on history, not party lines.

Nope. You're reading what you want to due to politics.

So, in your mind, the CCP has such a stellar track record of respecting human rights and the value of human life, that anyone that doubts the reasonableness of a statement like Fauci's, can only be motivated by partisanship.

Interesting

I wonder, are you really that ignorant of the vile and repugnant history of the CCP? Or, for that matter, their present day disregard for human life?

Straw man king.

Just stop...

People like you, and pretty much every other person like you are ACTIVELY making it difficult to investigate in the validity of the virus hypothesis.

I want sincere evidence about this. But all you, and a few certain other posters in this thread have provided is easily refutable conspiracism. People like you make any actual investigation hard, because you muddy the waters with your... nonsense.

Perhaps that is the main reason the media are taking it a LOT more seriously this time, because this time it might be backed with a bit more than just conspiracism. Methodology matters.

I have not said that I believe the CCP intentionally unleashed the virus.

All I did was question why Dr. Fauci would think its farfetched to think the CCP would accept a large number of deaths amongst their own subjects. Given their past and present behavior, that would seem entirely possible, not a farfetched concept. If the CCP thought they stood to gain enough, they wouldn't have much hesitation to risk hundreds of thousands of deaths in their population.

People that question the wisdom of Dr. Fauci are a few steps down on the ladder of people/things making it difficult to investigate this. At the top of that ladder is the CCP.