So remember when we thought the Corona virus being created in a lab was a crazy conspiracy?

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Silentchief

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#1  Edited By Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 6845 Posts

I guess it's not so crazy anymore.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/25/timeline-how-wuhan-lab-leak-theory-suddenly-became-credible/%3foutputType=amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1258032

Hmm, interesting. This was supposed to be another crazy conspiracy theory but it looks like it may be a possibility. Thoughts?

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deactivated-622fe92f3678e

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#2  Edited By deactivated-622fe92f3678e
Member since 2021 • 1836 Posts

First one is behind a paywall and as for the second one...

“U.S. still hasn't ruled out lab accident origin for Covid because China hasn't been transparent

U.S. officials haven't shown any evidence pointing to a lab escape, and scientists call the scenario unlikely. The U.S. wants China to share information.”

Next. There is still no credible evidence and this is just a propaganda tool by the left and right.

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deactivated-63d1ad7651984

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#3 deactivated-63d1ad7651984
Member since 2017 • 10057 Posts

Nothing surprises me anymore.

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Vaasman

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#4  Edited By Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 15541 Posts

How about we don't reignite this shit if there isn't any actual evidence? Literally all articles have said on this is it hasn't been ruled out, but that there still isn't any evidence this is the case.

Like saying I can't rule out that the sun will explode tomorrow. It sounds scary on it's own but in reality it basically means nothing.

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uninspiredcup

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#5  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 58635 Posts

Compared to the West, China eats anything. Including boiling dogs alive.

We have spades of evidence of this.

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lamprey263

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#6 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44503 Posts

Jumping to conclusions. They have no evidence to say it came from the Wuhan lab but also say the Chinese government hasn't been transparent enough to rule it out.

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MirkoS77

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#7 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17637 Posts

Just curious: what is the point of wanting this to be true? My father, a huge right-winger and Trumper, is adamantly beholden to the idea.

Is it just to be able to further a xenophobic sentiment? To solidify China our enemy? What’s the appeal?

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deactivated-622fe92f3678e

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#10 deactivated-622fe92f3678e
Member since 2021 • 1836 Posts

@girlusocrazy: Its actually a very effective propaganda tool. That way whatever bs they come up with he can just deny any involvement. The Trumpers buy it every time. That is the point, to put an enemy behind this so the people have something to channel their hate onto, while ignoring their own government.

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mrbojangles25

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#11 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58155 Posts

@warmblur said:

Nothing surprises me anymore.

Pretty much this.

Worst anthrax outbreak was downwind of a Soviet weapons lab.

Yet Ebola is in monkeys.

Lab or natural, doesn't really change our current situation. We can point fingers later.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#12 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 49564 Posts

Trump isn't in office, of course the media will recognize the possibility.

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Silentchief

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#13 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 6845 Posts

@Vaasman said:

How about we don't reignite this shit

if there isn't any actual evidence? Literally all articles have said on this is it hasn't been ruled out, but that there still isn't any evidence this is the case.

Like saying I can't rule out that the sun will explode tomorrow. It sounds scary on it's own but in reality it basically means nothing.

The odd timing of people who were sick in the lab and China's odd lack of transparency is a reason to reignite this shit.

If someone is a suspect in a murder and they have a motive would you just leave them alone or would you investigate?

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Silentchief

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#14  Edited By Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 6845 Posts
@joebones5000 said:

It still is a crazy conspiracy. You think otherwise because 3 people who worked in a city where it originated got it? lol. Ahuh. Nonsense.

For some weird ass reason, the right desperately wants as many of Trump's insane conspiracies to be true. Really frigging odd.

Funny but these are not right wing websites. I find it odd that the left so desperately doesn't want it to be true. That way they can just blame Trump and the evil GoP.

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deactivated-622fe92f3678e

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#15 deactivated-622fe92f3678e
Member since 2021 • 1836 Posts

@silentchief: it’s not true....

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sakaiXx

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#16  Edited By sakaiXx
Member since 2013 • 15868 Posts

@MirkoS77: making enemies does help keep the Defense industry alive and healthy, unfortunately.

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palasta

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#17 palasta
Member since 2017 • 1378 Posts

Anybody (eg "the left") who has ruled out the possibilty and call it a "crazy" conspiracy theory, has yet to realize in what kind of world we live in. In times like these and the mounting evidence i would go so far and call it treasonous. That doesn't say i see it as proven truth, but i certainly don't take the side of a criminal totalitarian regime that the government of China is, that has become increasingly hostile, while trashing my own nation and fellow country citizens.

"-Documents reveal China discussed weaponisation of coronaviruses prior to pandemic-"

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6253087969001

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deactivated-628e6669daebe

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#18  Edited By deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

Trump said a lot of shit based on rumours and lies but as the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day. But I understand that for the cult this brings them some psychological comfort.

This is to say that at the moment there is no proof of that being true, meaning that one year ago the idea of a president actually coming out and spreading this rumours is insane, irresponsible and manipulative, even if it ends up being true.

I'll say, conduct the investigation and bring forth compelling evidence. People getting flu symptoms during flu season isn't the strongest evidence.

@Stevo_the_gamer: And Trump is responsible for that. Don't be a known compulsive liar or say stuff based on rumours if you want to have credibility.

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Maroxad

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#19  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23806 Posts

LOL at this conspiracy theory and the evidence backing it now, reminds me of a certain Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri quote,

"Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist."

The fact is, we are practically been able to trace it, to animals, most likely from bats to pangolins, to the fact that this is yet another example of nature taking retribution against humanity, as we continue to infringe.

I don't give a damn if it is reported by even a respected outlet like Washington Post. It is the least plausible explanation for the outbreak, and just that LEAST plausible.

@palasta Keyword being 'discussed'. Weaponization of viruses is nothing new, and has been the topic of discussion by military analysists and intelligence agencies for decades now, all over the world, not just in China. Looking into the story, reveals that the "leak" the original source was making a big fuzz about was some openly available book published and for sale on amazon 6 years prior to the pandemic. Furthermore if we look at the actual book itself, it discusses how hostile (foreign or terrorist) factions could use it against China. In fact, the primary purpose of the book was to primarily blame a previous SARS outbreak on foreign enemies, notably Taiwan. So let's look at how this news story played out...

  1. First we have a propaganda piece from the People's Liberation army, trying to pin blame on SARS on Taiwan
  2. A news outlet gives accurate information on the book, but quotemines it heavily to make it look more sinister than it really is.
  3. The Australian picked up on this story. Changed it from a book to a secret document.
  4. News.com.au changes the topic from discussion of the weaponization of virus, to make it sound like a sinister plan. Here the story.
  5. News outlets, pick the news story up, and the "evidence" becomes mainstream.

This story is quite interesting though from a sociological perspective. It shows how stories can be corrupted and changed over time, and how even with all the information available at our fingertips, they can still be very successful at it.

Edit: Fixed up some minor errors.

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Eoten

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#20  Edited By Eoten
Member since 2020 • 8671 Posts

@ghost_of_phobos said:

Trump said a lot of shit based on rumours and lies but as the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day. But I understand that for the cult this brings them some psychological comfort.

This is to say that at the moment there is no proof of that being true, meaning that one year ago the idea of a president actually coming out and spreading this rumours is insane, irresponsible and manipulative, even if it ends up being true.

I'll say, conduct the investigation and bring forth compelling evidence. People getting flu symptoms during flu season isn't the strongest evidence.

@Stevo_the_gamer: And Trump is responsible for that. Don't be a known compulsive liar or say stuff based on rumours if you want to have credibility.

Well, who was saying they were rumor and lies? TV media? How much more credible are they? They had motive to call these things lies and conspiracy theories just prior to an election. The media absolutely ruled it out as an impossibility with no evidence to support that.

Also, if it did come from a Wuhan lab that the Chinese tried to cover up, that means it hit this world much sooner than we were told as well. That means Covid was spreading world wide months before anyone knew it existed, because China didn't want to get blamed for it.

Now, if it was spreading worldwide, then it reinforces the theory that Covid wasn't rapidly spreading early last year, but had already spread, and the increase in testing is what was resulting in an increase in positive test results. This means Covid was a hell of a lot less dangerous than we were being told as well.

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Kadin_Kai

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#21 Kadin_Kai
Member since 2015 • 2247 Posts

@eoten: Apparently they did find COVID in Spain March 2019.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science-idUSKBN23X2HQ

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#22 Eoten
Member since 2020 • 8671 Posts
@kadin_kai said:

@eoten: Apparently they did find COVID in Spain March 2019.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science-idUSKBN23X2HQ

That'd be interesting if confirmed to be true. Either it had ran it's course nearly a year before the mass media fueled hysteria was forced upon us, or other variants of Coronavirus (such as one responsible for the common cold) is easily mistaken for Covid-19 in testing.

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palasta

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#23  Edited By palasta
Member since 2017 • 1378 Posts

@kadin_kai said:

@eoten: Apparently they did find COVID in Spain March 2019.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science-idUSKBN23X2HQ

Apparently, nothing came of it. This was a year ago. If they had no problem finding supposed traces of the virus in one probe, it would be easy to have a conclusive comprehensible proof by now.

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deactivated-628e6669daebe

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#24 deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

@eoten: You have more than 600000 deaths and you're still trying to spin the "not that serious" narrative. Holy shit dude. 🤣

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Zaryia

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#25 Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts

@ghost_of_phobos said:

@eoten: You have more than 600000 deaths and you're still trying to spin the "not that serious" narrative. Holy shit dude. 🤣

Some people are anti-facts and anti-science on specific topics due to political affiliation, and it sucks.

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Zaryia

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#26  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts
@eoten said:
@ghost_of_phobos said:

Trump said a lot of shit based on rumours and lies but as the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day. But I understand that for the cult this brings them some psychological comfort.

This is to say that at the moment there is no proof of that being true, meaning that one year ago the idea of a president actually coming out and spreading this rumours is insane, irresponsible and manipulative, even if it ends up being true.

I'll say, conduct the investigation and bring forth compelling evidence. People getting flu symptoms during flu season isn't the strongest evidence.

@Stevo_the_gamer: And Trump is responsible for that. Don't be a known compulsive liar or say stuff based on rumours if you want to have credibility.

Well, who was saying they were rumor and lies? TV media? How much more credible are they?

Ghost is correct, Trump did state quite a bit of lies and misleading claims when it comes to Covid. Confirmed by multiple fact checkers. Easy stuff too that a child would know is wrong.

Timeline of Trump's COVID-19 Comments - FactCheck.org

RNC 2020 fact-check: Trump’s Covid-19 lie, refuted in one chart - Vox

AP FACT CHECK: Trump's fiction in his goodbye to Washington (apnews.com)

Donald Trump has made many false coronavirus claims, but some of Joe Biden's are wide of the mark too - ABC News

Also a few studies showing he objectively screwed up our Covid response resulting in quite a bit of avoidable deaths directly from his administration (6 digits).

But as it pertains to this Wuhan Lab theory, I guess he may or may not end up correct. We'll see.

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Silentchief

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#27 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 6845 Posts

@thenation said:

@silentchief: it’s not true....

How do you know?

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deactivated-622fe92f3678e

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#28 deactivated-622fe92f3678e
Member since 2021 • 1836 Posts

@silentchief: Because there is zero proof to say otherwise.....

@ghost_of_phobos: Trump supporters will never stop doing that, only way to protect their master. Fall on the sword. He was even trying to pass it off as the common cold. Just tiring.

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Silentchief

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#29  Edited By Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 6845 Posts

@thenation said:

@silentchief: Because there is zero proof to say otherwise.....

@ghost_of_phobos: Trump supporters will never stop doing that, only way to protect their master. Fall on the sword. He was even trying to pass it off as the common cold. Just tiring.

There was 0 proof that Trump colluded with Russia but you had an investigation?

You guys fail to see how this works.

If a man's wife ends up missing and there is no evidence that he murdered her yet he does everything in his power to not cooperate with authorities. . Would we not investigate him? Let's say he has a motive and someone happened to see him leave his house late at night... that isn't proof but it does give us a reason not to rule them out.

I'm not sure why the hard left wants to deny this so much...? Do they love China or does it mean maybe Trump was right about something and they can't stand it?

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appariti0n

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#30 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 5011 Posts

Omfg. Its not a "crazy conspiracy" to admit to the possibility that a coronavirus, which was first detected near a lab where they SPECIALIZE in working with Coronaviruses, may have leaked from said lab.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/news/world/new-details-wuhan-lab-staff-taken-to-hospital-a-month-before-china-first-reported-covid-19/wcm/f5270b32-eea5-4e08-9c3c-08c798353f89/amp/

I'm not saying this was a malicious, willful act on the part of China, but its most certainly worth investigating dont you think?

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deactivated-622fe92f3678e

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#31  Edited By deactivated-622fe92f3678e
Member since 2021 • 1836 Posts

@silentchief: You went overdrive into that. I didn’t even say not look into it, just that the evidence doesn’t support it. Jeez. And yes there was evidence of Russia, damn dude. Stay on topic.

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Silentchief

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#32 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 6845 Posts

@thenation: You said

"It's not true"

That sounds like you think it's not worth looking into.

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sealionact

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#33 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 9774 Posts

Yes I remember when the theory of the coronavirus being created in a lab was dismissed as a crazy theory.

It was dismissed by some of the top international scientists in the field when they presented conclusive evidence that the virus could not have been made in a lab.

https://apnews.com/article/archive-fact-checking-9391149002

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sealionact

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#35 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 9774 Posts

@appariti0n: It was investigated. By the WHO. It was also stated by independent scientists and virologists that the molecular structure of SARS-CoV-2 rules out the possibility that the virus was created in a lab.

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deactivated-628e6669daebe

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#36 deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

Might have been caused by aliens.

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deactivated-622fe92f3678e

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#37  Edited By deactivated-622fe92f3678e
Member since 2021 • 1836 Posts

@sealionact: Look at the 2020 election, facts will never stand in their way. Keep going until your narrative is proven.

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Silentchief

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#38 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 6845 Posts

@thenation said:

@silentchief: There you go with the taking things outta context again. You assumed it.

Lol OK.

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appariti0n

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#39 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 5011 Posts

@sealionact: So why did Biden just call for further investigation a few moments ago?

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#40  Edited By appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 5011 Posts

@sealionact: Here, one of many articles that have popped up over the last few hours:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/7449950002

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sealionact

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#41 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 9774 Posts

@appariti0n: I just told you that Scientists and Virologists have explained how it is impossible for the virus to be created in a lab, and you quote a president who doesn’t know anything about viruses along with a broken link?

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Maroxad

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#43  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23806 Posts

@appariti0n said:

Omfg. Its not a "crazy conspiracy" to admit to the possibility that a coronavirus, which was first detected near a lab where they SPECIALIZE in working with Coronaviruses, may have leaked from said lab.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/news/world/new-details-wuhan-lab-staff-taken-to-hospital-a-month-before-china-first-reported-covid-19/wcm/f5270b32-eea5-4e08-9c3c-08c798353f89/amp/

I'm not saying this was a malicious, willful act on the part of China, but its most certainly worth investigating dont you think?

Might be worth investigating, but at the same time, I wonder what the point will be. When the investigation ends up turning negative, the tinfoil hats will find some rationalization to still believe that the virus originated from a lab, and just change their narrative somewhat. Just look at the autism/vaccine stuff.

But yes, investigate it, just to quell, the people on the fence. I just hope they wont find some way to spin this conspiracy theory back into relevancy again.

Edit: I looked it up, and there were investigations earlier this year (back in february) on the origins of the virus. They concluded that the laboratory leak origin was "extremely unlikely".

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deactivated-622fe92f3678e

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#44 deactivated-622fe92f3678e
Member since 2021 • 1836 Posts

@Maroxad: Go ahead, just remember there are still people who think the moon landing was fake.

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SUD123456

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#45 SUD123456
Member since 2007 • 6939 Posts

@appariti0n said:

@sealionact: So why did Biden just call for further investigation a few moments ago?

Actually, that's the easiest question to answer.

It's a put up or shut up moment. From a political perspective that is a good move. Either there is no real evidence, in which case Biden then says 'shut up'. Or there is something worth pursuing, in which case Biden says 'look at how awesome I am for getting to the truth'.

It seems quite doubtful that this is a research lab escape, occams razor applies.

Having said that, there seems to be still much doubt about the exact timing, initial Chinese response, etc. That alone could be good politics, which is why Trump pursued that line as well.

What Trump failed to realize is that taking action is more important than laying blame at the outset. There is always the opportunity to lay blame later. Shit leadership on his part.

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Maroxad

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#46 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23806 Posts

@thenation: There is also the fact that this conspiracy theory has already been investigated by the WHO.

Their results were negative and the conclusions are that SARS-CoV-2 coming from a lab are extremely unlikely.

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appariti0n

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#47 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 5011 Posts

@sealionact said:

@appariti0n: I just told you that Scientists and Virologists have explained how it is impossible for the virus to be created in a lab, and you quote a president who doesn’t know anything about viruses along with a broken link?

The link worked fine just now, but I turned it into a hyperlink for you.

Also, scientists (as far as I know) have NOT claimed it's impossible. They said it was "unlikely".

There are also other scientists, who are claiming we shouldn't dismiss the idea so easily.

Again, I'm not in the camp that believes it was somehow engineered and then released on the public intentionally.

I AM of the camp that China has not been totally honest with us either.

The whole point is that the possibility of COVID escaping from a lab was too easily dismissed. Not an ironclad "well it clearly came from a lab" anyhow.

Anyhow, my original point stands. Unless someone here is an experienced virologist, absolutely nobody here has the expertise to definitively say this is "just some crazy conspiracy theory". And even then, see below:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/wuhan-lab-leak-question-chinese-mine-covid-pandemic-11621871125

"The team, which spent three hours at the institute, had little to go on beyond assurances from the institute’s own staff, team members say. On the same day the report was released, Dr. Tedros said the team hadn’t adequately explored a potential lab origin."

Wait, who is Dr. Tedros again?

In any event, hopefully this settles it once and for all, either way.

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sealionact

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#48 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 9774 Posts

@appariti0n said:
@sealionact said:

@appariti0n: I just told you that Scientists and Virologists have explained how it is impossible for the virus to be created in a lab, and you quote a president who doesn’t know anything about viruses along with a broken link?

The link worked fine just now, but I turned it into a hyperlink for you.

Also, scientists (as far as I know) have NOT claimed it's impossible. They said it was "unlikely".

There are also other scientists, who are claiming we shouldn't dismiss the idea so easily.

Again, I'm not in the camp that believes it was somehow engineered and then released on the public intentionally.

I AM of the camp that China has not been totally honest with us either.

The whole point is that the possibility of COVID escaping from a lab was too easily dismissed. Not an ironclad "well it clearly came from a lab" anyhow.

Anyhow, my original point stands. Unless someone here is an experienced virologist, absolutely nobody here has the expertise to definitively say this is "just some crazy conspiracy theory". And even then, see below:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/wuhan-lab-leak-question-chinese-mine-covid-pandemic-11621871125

"The team, which spent three hours at the institute, had little to go on beyond assurances from the institute’s own staff, team members say. On the same day the report was released, Dr. Tedros said the team hadn’t adequately explored a potential lab origin."

Wait, who is Dr. Tedros again?

In any event, hopefully this settles it once and for all, either way.

You’re not reading what I wrote. OP asked about the theory that the virus was created in a lab. I said that there has been solid proof and undeniable evidence that this outbreak was not created at a lab. If the WSJ are suggesting that Miners got sick after entering a cave and then the Lab gathered samples which were then leaked from the lab, then I think they need to acknowledge that the virus was already outside the lab before they took it in….in which case how is anybody supposed to accuse the lab of leaking when it was already in the caves?

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sealionact

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#49 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 9774 Posts
@thenation said:

@Maroxad: Go ahead, just remember there are still people who think the moon landing was fake.

Wait….we landed on the moon?

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#50 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 5011 Posts

@sealionact: Fair enough, I misread his op as "leaked from a lab".

I agree its unlikely it was created there. Only that the idea that it leaked from there was suddenly not so crazy.

As a purely hypothetical though, If one wanted a virus that didn't harm healthy productive people for the most part, but culled the old and sick in a heavily populated country, covid fits those requirements in spades. So I can definitely see how some would jump to conclusions.