Will God Let Good People Into Heaven? (Poll)

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blackregiment

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#251 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Even if that were true, that still doesn't seem just at all. According to you, everyone who does not accept Christ will receive the same punishment (Hell), for the same duration (eternity). A just judge wouldn't sentance a habitual liar to the same punishment as a serial killer. And then you also have all the infants who died before they were even capable of being saved. -Sun_Tzu-

Again, you're looking at it from a human perspect and drawing a non-biblical conclusion. All sin is equal. All sin can be eternally forgiven. All sin must warrant eternal punishment. That's what God tells us. What reason do you have to assume that is not true?

I don't care if I am drawing a non-biblical conclusion. I am trying to draw a JUST conclusion. I do not see why you find what you are proposing to be just - to simply cast aside obvious unjust concepts as a result of man having only a finite understanding is a poor excuse. If God created us, he is the one who gave us a sense of justice, and to just sit back and not even question what you are proposing because it is "a biblical conclusion" is by all means a disservice to God.

But "JUST" by whose standards, our perfect, holy, righteous, and sovereign Creator's standards as revealed in His Word, or by fallen man's reasoning and standards, based on our opinions, hopes, and wishes?

If God exists, and I believe He does, if the Bible is His revelation to His creation, and I believe it is, do you think that what "we think God should do", has a scintilla of effect on what He chooses or is bound to do? Do you think that our sovereign God is bound by man's thoughts, ways, wishes, hopes, and desires?

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#252 Lethalhazard
Member since 2009 • 5451 Posts
If I did believe in god, then no. Every human does many evil things and pretty much we'd all go to Hell. But I am agnostic. I don't believe in Him nor doubt (just incase thar b a Hell!11).
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#253 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] Again, you're looking at it from a human perspect and drawing a non-biblical conclusion. All sin is equal. All sin can be eternally forgiven. All sin must warrant eternal punishment. That's what God tells us. What reason do you have to assume that is not true?blackregiment

I don't care if I am drawing a non-biblical conclusion. I am trying to draw a JUST conclusion. I do not see why you find what you are proposing to be just - to simply cast aside obvious unjust concepts as a result of man having only a finite understanding is a poor excuse. If God created us, he is the one who gave us a sense of justice, and to just sit back and not even question what you are proposing because it is "a biblical conclusion" is by all means a disservice to God.

But "JUST" by whose standards, our perfect, holy, righteous, and sovereign Creator's standards as revealed in His Word, or by fallen man's reasoning and standards, based on our opinions, hopes, and wishes?

If God exists, and I believe He does, if the Bible is His revelation to His creation, and I believe it is, do you think that what "we think God should do", has a scintilla of effect on what He chooses or is bound to do? Do you think that our sovereign God is bound by man's thoughts, ways, wishes, hopes, and desires?

I'm not debating what I think God should do. I am debating what I think God does. Man only has one conception of justice, and if God's actions do not fit with that conception of justice, how am I suppose to believe that God is just? Because the bible says it is so? The bible never condemns slavery, in fact it encourages it at times. Are you going to tell me that slavery is just?
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deactivated-5901ac91d8e33

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#254 deactivated-5901ac91d8e33
Member since 2004 • 17092 Posts
To flesh out my opinion. Human beings are formed by outside factors such as society and coincidental events. Our mindset is created as a result of these factors playing in on our social life. If I don't believe in God, it's because these outside factors has prevented the mentioned mindset from accepting his existence, my mind require a larger amount of evidence than certain others...it's not something I can help. How the hell can God judge me when this is the case?
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#255 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

How the hell can God judge me when this is the case? jointed
Because God is just, apparently.

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pancreasjuice

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#256 pancreasjuice
Member since 2008 • 344 Posts

What I want to know, is how every bible translator so far has got it wrong. There have been countless revisions carried out by people who've studied the original texts, and the usage of language in that time period all their lives -- godly people who have wanted nothing more than to understand the true meaning of God's Word. I simply cannot accept two things, a) that every single bible translator so far has been incorrect in translating the Greek word into "eternal" or "everlasting" in the context of punishment, yet you happen to be correct, and b) that God would actually allow His Word to yield the conviction of a lie.

Lansdowne5

funny thing is, history is littered with people manipulating texts, including the bible, to their own meaning, for their own purposes. So forgive me when i take that statement with a bit of scepticism.

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blackregiment

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#257 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I don't care if I am drawing a non-biblical conclusion. I am trying to draw a JUST conclusion. I do not see why you find what you are proposing to be just - to simply cast aside obvious unjust concepts as a result of man having only a finite understanding is a poor excuse. If God created us, he is the one who gave us a sense of justice, and to just sit back and not even question what you are proposing because it is "a biblical conclusion" is by all means a disservice to God.

-Sun_Tzu-

But "JUST" by whose standards, our perfect, holy, righteous, and sovereign Creator's standards as revealed in His Word, or by fallen man's reasoning and standards, based on our opinions, hopes, and wishes?

If God exists, and I believe He does, if the Bible is His revelation to His creation, and I believe it is, do you think that what "we think God should do", has a scintilla of effect on what He chooses or is bound to do? Do you think that our sovereign God is bound by man's thoughts, ways, wishes, hopes, and desires?

I'm not debating what I think God should do. I am debating what I think God does. Man only has one conception of justice, and if God's actions do not fit with that conception of justice, how am I suppose to believe that God is just? Because the bible says it is so? The bible never condemns slavery, in fact it encourages it at times. Are you going to tell me that slavery is just?

If one studies history, they will find that slavery was common place in the culture at that time. It was also different than our current understanding of slavery. Enslaving others is a free will choice of man, in Biblical times, sometimes made by the slave himself. That does not mean that God condones slavery. God's law is not intended to remove man's free will and abolish every institution that man chooses to institute with their free will. His law, given to His chosen people, the Jews, reformed the widespread and common institution of slavery among those that believed in Him, which resulted in an improvement of the man-made institution.

Here is an excerpt from an article on slavery in the Bible. You might want to read the article in the link for an understanding of the issue of slavery in the Bible. I hope you find it useful.

"The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters."

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#258 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

But "JUST" by whose standards, our perfect, holy, righteous, and sovereign Creator's standards as revealed in His Word, or by fallen man's reasoning and standards, based on our opinions, hopes, and wishes?

If God exists, and I believe He does, if the Bible is His revelation to His creation, and I believe it is, do you think that what "we think God should do", has a scintilla of effect on what He chooses or is bound to do? Do you think that our sovereign God is bound by man's thoughts, ways, wishes, hopes, and desires?

blackregiment

I'm not debating what I think God should do. I am debating what I think God does. Man only has one conception of justice, and if God's actions do not fit with that conception of justice, how am I suppose to believe that God is just? Because the bible says it is so? The bible never condemns slavery, in fact it encourages it at times. Are you going to tell me that slavery is just?

If one studies history, they will find that slavery was common place in the culture at that time. It was also different than our current understanding of slavery. Enslaving others is a free will choice of man, in Biblical times, sometimes made by the slave himself. That does not mean that God condones slavery. God's law is not intended to remove man's free will and abolish every institution that man chooses to institute with their free will. His law, given to His chosen people, the Jews, reformed the widespread and common institution of slavery among those that believed in Him, which resulted in an improvement of the man-made institution.

Here is an excerpt from an article on slavery in the Bible. You might want to read the article in the link for an understanding of the issue of slavery in the Bible. I hope you find it useful.

"The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters."

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

Hold on blackregiment, are you defending moral relativism? Furthermore, I must say that is a weak response. There is no such thing as "good" slavery and "bad" slavery, for slavery in itself is a moral travesty, regardless if it is not based on race or nationality (even though it was, Exodus anyone?)Also, what about the woman's free will in Deuteronomy 21:10-11?

And I don't see why God's law is not intended to remove man's free will when it comes to wanting to own another human being, but God has no problem removing man's free will when it comes to murder.

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#259 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178860 Posts

I think He would.....and it's not for us to judge others as worthy or not.

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Mind_Mover

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#260 Mind_Mover
Member since 2005 • 1489 Posts

I'll say this for a third time, what if there are people who have no knowledge of christ because of their circumstances, for example, people who live in the jungle or in the mountains, the people who christ could not and did not reach, your saying that they deserve to spend eternity in hell because they don't accept christ?

How are those people supposed to accept christ if they don't know about him because of their circumstances? Accept christ as your saviour or go to hell? that isn't fair at all, and the only one at fault is god for not educating those kind of people.

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#261 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178860 Posts

I'll say this for a third time, what if there are people who have no knowledge of christ because of their circumstances, for example, people who live in the jungle or in the mountains, the people who christ could not and did not reach, your saying that they deserve to spend eternity in hell because they don't accept christ?

How are those people supposed to accept christ if they don't know about him because of their circumstances? Accept christ as your saviour or go to hell? that isn't fair at all, and the only one at fault is god for not educating those kind of people.

Mind_Mover

Then they are not held responsible for not knowing about Him...

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#262 AnnoyedDragon
Member since 2006 • 9948 Posts

A serial murderer/rapist turned born again Christian is better in Gods eyes than than a famously good person who chose the "wrong" religion.

If you are a Christian you believe all none believers will roast in hell, being ripped apart by demons over and over again regardless of their moral character if they don't accept Christ.

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Lansdowne5

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#263 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

What I want to know, is how every bible translator so far has got it wrong. There have been countless revisions carried out by people who've studied the original texts, and the usage of language in that time period all their lives -- godly people who have wanted nothing more than to understand the true meaning of God's Word. I simply cannot accept two things, a) that every single bible translator so far has been incorrect in translating the Greek word into "eternal" or "everlasting" in the context of punishment, yet you happen to be correct, and b) that God would actually allow His Word to yield the conviction of a lie.

pancreasjuice

funny thing is, history is littered with people manipulating texts, including the bible, to their own meaning, for their own purposes. So forgive me when i take that statement with a bit of scepticism.

Oh, I agree with your point -- the Catholic Church was guilty of this. But is that happening to the same degree nowadays.....? I think not. ;)
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Lansdowne5

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#264 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

A serial murderer/rapist turned born again Christian is better in Gods eyes than than a famously good person who chose the "wrong" religion.

If you are a Christian you believe all none believers will roast in hell, being ripped apart by demons over and over again regardless of their moral character if they don't accept Christ.

AnnoyedDragon
Just to point something out....demons won't be the punishers.....they will be the punished, along with all those who reject the sacrifice Christ made upon the Cross of Calvary some 2000 years ago.
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deactivated-5901ac91d8e33

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#265 deactivated-5901ac91d8e33
Member since 2004 • 17092 Posts

[QUOTE="jointed"] How the hell can God judge me when this is the case? -Sun_Tzu-

Because God is just, apparently.

Yeah...he obviously is.
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LJS9502_basic

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#266 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178860 Posts

[QUOTE="pancreasjuice"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

What I want to know, is how every bible translator so far has got it wrong. There have been countless revisions carried out by people who've studied the original texts, and the usage of language in that time period all their lives -- godly people who have wanted nothing more than to understand the true meaning of God's Word. I simply cannot accept two things, a) that every single bible translator so far has been incorrect in translating the Greek word into "eternal" or "everlasting" in the context of punishment, yet you happen to be correct, and b) that God would actually allow His Word to yield the conviction of a lie.

Lansdowne5

funny thing is, history is littered with people manipulating texts, including the bible, to their own meaning, for their own purposes. So forgive me when i take that statement with a bit of scepticism.

Oh, I agree with your point -- the Catholic Church was guilty of this. But is that happening to the same degree nowadays.....? I think not. ;)

I can think of a few different Christian denominations that manipulate text to this day.;)

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blackregiment

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#267 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I'm not debating what I think God should do. I am debating what I think God does. Man only has one conception of justice, and if God's actions do not fit with that conception of justice, how am I suppose to believe that God is just? Because the bible says it is so? The bible never condemns slavery, in fact it encourages it at times. Are you going to tell me that slavery is just?-Sun_Tzu-

If one studies history, they will find that slavery was common place in the culture at that time. It was also different than our current understanding of slavery. Enslaving others is a free will choice of man, in Biblical times, sometimes made by the slave himself. That does not mean that God condones slavery. God's law is not intended to remove man's free will and abolish every institution that man chooses to institute with their free will. His law, given to His chosen people, the Jews, reformed the widespread and common institution of slavery among those that believed in Him, which resulted in an improvement of the man-made institution.

Here is an excerpt from an article on slavery in the Bible. You might want to read the article in the link for an understanding of the issue of slavery in the Bible. I hope you find it useful.

"The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters."

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

And I don't see why God's law is not intended to remove man's free will when it comes to wanting to own another human being, but God has no problem removing man's free will when it comes to murder.

What are you talking about? Man has a free will to choose to obey God or choose to disobey Him. That is the essence of free will. God doesn't "step in" and stop people from murdering others or enslaving others. If He did that, there would be no abortion, murder, or slavery or free will. Man chooses which path he will follow, the God of the Bible's or the god of this world's.

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#268 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

I think He would.....and it's not for us to judge others as worthy or not.

LJS9502_basic
Wait.....what? The entire New Testament pretty much yells, "SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS!" Do you believe people can be saved another way, other than by salvation through Christ?
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#269 Mind_Mover
Member since 2005 • 1489 Posts

[QUOTE="Mind_Mover"]

I'll say this for a third time, what if there are people who have no knowledge of christ because of their circumstances, for example, people who live in the jungle or in the mountains, the people who christ could not and did not reach, your saying that they deserve to spend eternity in hell because they don't accept christ?

How are those people supposed to accept christ if they don't know about him because of their circumstances? Accept christ as your saviour or go to hell? that isn't fair at all, and the only one at fault is god for not educating those kind of people.

LJS9502_basic

Then they are not held responsible for not knowing about Him...

So they go to heaven if they are good people?

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#270 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

If one studies history, they will find that slavery was common place in the culture at that time. It was also different than our current understanding of slavery. Enslaving others is a free will choice of man, in Biblical times, sometimes made by the slave himself. That does not mean that God condones slavery. God's law is not intended to remove man's free will and abolish every institution that man chooses to institute with their free will. His law, given to His chosen people, the Jews, reformed the widespread and common institution of slavery among those that believed in Him, which resulted in an improvement of the man-made institution.

Here is an excerpt from an article on slavery in the Bible. You might want to read the article in the link for an understanding of the issue of slavery in the Bible. I hope you find it useful.

"The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters."

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

blackregiment

And I don't see why God's law is not intended to remove man's free will when it comes to wanting to own another human being, but God has no problem removing man's free will when it comes to murder.

What are you talking about? Man has a free will to choose to obey God or choose to disobey Him. That is the essence of free will. God doesn't "step in" and stop people from murdering others or enslaving others. If He did that, there would be no abortion, murder, or slavery or free will. Man chooses which path he will follow, the God of the Bible's or the god of this world's.

God proclaims "Thou shall not murder", and yet God never says "Thou shall not own another man". Sorry if I hadn't been clear enough.

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#271 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178860 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

I think He would.....and it's not for us to judge others as worthy or not.

Lansdowne5

Wait.....what? The entire New Testament pretty much yells, "SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS!" Do you believe people can be saved another way, other than by salvation through Christ?

The New Testament is the teaching for those who follow. Faith is considered a gift. If one is not given a gift they won't be penalized for that.

Edit: Man is till judged on his actions.

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#272 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="pancreasjuice"]

funny thing is, history is littered with people manipulating texts, including the bible, to their own meaning, for their own purposes. So forgive me when i take that statement with a bit of scepticism.

LJS9502_basic

Oh, I agree with your point -- the Catholic Church was guilty of this. But is that happening to the same degree nowadays.....? I think not. ;)

I can think of a few different Christian denominations that manipulate text to this day.;)

So can I.......But I think it's a bit far-fetched to claim that 'every single' Bible translation has got it wrong so far. Don't you?
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#273 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178860 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Mind_Mover"]

I'll say this for a third time, what if there are people who have no knowledge of christ because of their circumstances, for example, people who live in the jungle or in the mountains, the people who christ could not and did not reach, your saying that they deserve to spend eternity in hell because they don't accept christ?

How are those people supposed to accept christ if they don't know about him because of their circumstances? Accept christ as your saviour or go to hell? that isn't fair at all, and the only one at fault is god for not educating those kind of people.

Mind_Mover

Then they are not held responsible for not knowing about Him...

So they go to heaven if they are good people?

That's the theory. The exception is those who turn others away from God.

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TheGreatOutdoor

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#274 TheGreatOutdoor
Member since 2009 • 3234 Posts

Will God Let Good People Into Heaven?

Crushmaster

Nope, he is only going to let bad people in. :roll:

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#275 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

A serial murderer/rapist turned born again Christian is better in Gods eyes than than a famously good person who chose the "wrong" religion.

If you are a Christian you believe all none believers will roast in hell, being ripped apart by demons over and over again regardless of their moral character if they don't accept Christ.

Lansdowne5

Just to point something out....demons won't be the punishers.....they will be the punished, along with all those who reject the sacrifice Christ made upon the Cross of Calvary some 2000 years ago.

You are not responding to the point...

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blackregiment

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#276 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

I'll say this for a third time, what if there are people who have no knowledge of christ because of their circumstances, for example, people who live in the jungle or in the mountains, the people who christ could not and did not reach, your saying that they deserve to spend eternity in hell because they don't accept christ?

How are those people supposed to accept christ if they don't know about him because of their circumstances? Accept christ as your saviour or go to hell? that isn't fair at all, and the only one at fault is god for not educating those kind of people.

Mind_Mover

I will attempt to answer your question.I will begin by making a few general observations.They may or may not apply to you, I don't know, so please don't take them as directed at you.

Nonbelievers, often put forth the question regarding the eternal destiny of one that does not hear the Gospel.My opinion is that often, the motivation for posing this question is a desire to justify their disbelief by somehow painting God as unjust and therefore not worthy of belief and worship.This brings several questions to mind. For example, why would one that does not believe in God be concerned about the eternal destiny of another person that may not believe in God? Or why would they be more concerned about the eternal destiny of another who may have not heard of Christ, but not their own as one who has heard?Or why, if they are so concerned about the eternal destiny of those that have not heard the Gospel, are they sometimes the ones that are often complaining about Christians that are spreading the Gospel? Why are they often admonishing Christians to keep their faith to themselves rather than tell others about Christ? Why, if they are so concerned about the eternal destiny of those that have not heard about Christ, are they not busy spreading the Gospel themselves? When one considers these questions rationally, and in the context of the worldview of the nonbeliever, it becomes difficult to think that, this is truly an obstacle to their believing in God.It is difficult to see it as nothing more than an attempt to justify their disbelief by judging God's ways and plan against their own finite reasoning and understanding to paint Him as unfair and unjust.

The basis of this question is in hypothetical assumptions. One is that we, with our temporal and finite minds, can fully know and understand God's plan for His creation. Another is that our finite understanding and reasoning, exceeds that of an all-powerful, all knowing, loving creator God. Another is that God owes us, His creation, anything more that He has already given us. Another is that we, as the creation, can dictate and question how our creator God interacts with His creation. Another is that God's ways and plan can be inherently unjust. Another is that our all-powerful and all-knowing God is not capable of revealing Himself and imparting knowledge of Himself to a person anywhere in His creation, regardless of the situation.Another is that God created us to meet our demands and insure our pleasure, and not for His pleasure and to glorify Himself. Another is that there exists, anywhere in the world a sinless person that is seeking after God and that God will not reveal himself to that person.Another is that our knowledge and relationship with God depends on others, rather than on ourselves. Finally, one other is that we are justified in living our lives any way we choose, including disbelief, in disobedience to Him, even denying His existence, all the while demanding that God, our creator, meet our expectations and act and do as we demand. These assumptions lead to man's elevation of himself to a position higher that God, our creator, and the Bible reveals that God considers this heresy and idolatry.

Having said that, here are some things to consider. We, with our finite minds and sinful nature, cannot ever fully know all of God's ways or fully understand His plan until the Lord returns. We are not all knowing and therefore cannot fully know how God deals with His creation or the eternal destiny of anyone, other than ourselves, based on how we deal with His revelation and our personal response to it. All we can know is what God has chosen to reveal to us in His many forms of revelation. God has revealed himself to us in His creation, which is general revelation. God has revealed himself to us in His Word, the Bible, which is His written, special revelation. God has revealed Himself to us in Jesus Christ, His living Word, which is special revelation. God has revealed himself in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sin, be sorrowful for our sin against God, to repent and seek God's forgiveness, guide us to the truth, and help us to live more righteous lives in obedience to Him. Evidence of this life changing power can be seen in the changed lives of millions of people that have been lifted out of lives of despair, sin, addiction, perversion, crime, etc., to joyful and righteous lives serving Him.

The Bible tells us that all men are sinners.There is no one that is righteous. We are all sinners, have a sinful nature, and are separated from God..

The Bible tells us that the penalty for sin is death which is eternal separation from God.

The Bible also tells us that God has revealed himself in His creation.This is general revelation.

The Bible tell us that a knowledge of God is written in our hearts.

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in His revelation.

God's revelation of Himself to mankind is progressive in nature. Before His revelation in Christ, the Old Testament saints obtained salvation through their faith in God, based on His revelation to them at that point. God promised that a Messiah, would someday come and they had faith in what God told them.Though they died before the coming of Christ, they were justified by their faith in the promises of God. Hebrews 11 reveals this.

From this we see that faith in the Lord, based on His revelation, determines one's relationship with God and their eternal destiny. While we are not God, and as I mentioned can never hope to fully know or comprehend his plan, I believe that if one seeks God, He will reveal Himself to them. If they have faith, in a creator God, God will reveal Himself to them. He might lead a missionary to them.A friend that has learned of the Gospel may share it with them. The Lord may directly reveal the Gospel to them as He did with Saul, later know as Paul on the road to Damascus. We cannot know for sure How God will reveal Himself to those that don't know Him and how He will ultimately deal with anyone, should they exist, that has not heard the Gospel.We do know that the Lord is faithful in keeping His promises and He has revealed to us in His Word that He will reveal Himself to anyone that diligently seeks Him.I trust that He will be faithful to that promise and that He will be just in insuring that those that seek Him based on His revelation to them, will be dealt with in His perfect justice come judgment day.

The Lord loves us and does not wish that anyone should be separated from Him or perish. He is powerful and loving enough to create us and the entire universe, therefore, He is powerful and loving enough to insure that those that seek Him, find Him.

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Siofen

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#277 Siofen
Member since 2008 • 987 Posts

A serial murderer/rapist turned born again Christian is better in Gods eyes than than a famously good person who chose the "wrong" religion.

If you are a Christian you believe all none believers will roast in hell, being ripped apart by demons over and over again regardless of their moral character if they don't accept Christ.

AnnoyedDragon

Errr, I thought hell was actually just seperation from god rather then the fire and brimstone we're told as kids,

Can someone clarify?

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warbmxjohn

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#278 warbmxjohn
Member since 2007 • 6014 Posts

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

A serial murderer/rapist turned born again Christian is better in Gods eyes than than a famously good person who chose the "wrong" religion.

If you are a Christian you believe all none believers will roast in hell, being ripped apart by demons over and over again regardless of their moral character if they don't accept Christ.

Teenaged

Just to point something out....demons won't be the punishers.....they will be the punished, along with all those who reject the sacrifice Christ made upon the Cross of Calvary some 2000 years ago.

You are not responding to the point...

Probably because the point was valid and strong.
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Mind_Mover

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#279 Mind_Mover
Member since 2005 • 1489 Posts

[QUOTE="Mind_Mover"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Then they are not held responsible for not knowing about Him...

LJS9502_basic

So they go to heaven if they are good people?

That's the theory. The exception is those who turn others away from God.

@Landsdowne, do you share the same belief as LJ?

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LJS9502_basic

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#280 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178860 Posts

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

A serial murderer/rapist turned born again Christian is better in Gods eyes than than a famously good person who chose the "wrong" religion.

If you are a Christian you believe all none believers will roast in hell, being ripped apart by demons over and over again regardless of their moral character if they don't accept Christ.

Teenaged

Just to point something out....demons won't be the punishers.....they will be the punished, along with all those who reject the sacrifice Christ made upon the Cross of Calvary some 2000 years ago.

You are not responding to the point...

The point near as I can figure is the dude is assuming Lansdowne speaks for God...

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TheGreatOutdoor

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#281 TheGreatOutdoor
Member since 2009 • 3234 Posts

Here is my question. God does not sin right? Ok well jealousy is a sin according to god right? Well in the bible it says "thou shall not worship false idols". Why can we not, is god a jealous god?

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LJS9502_basic

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#282 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178860 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Mind_Mover"]So they go to heaven if they are good people?

Mind_Mover

That's the theory. The exception is those who turn others away from God.

@Landsdowne, do you share the same belief as LJ?

No he does not....

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Teenaged

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#283 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] Just to point something out....demons won't be the punishers.....they will be the punished, along with all those who reject the sacrifice Christ made upon the Cross of Calvary some 2000 years ago. LJS9502_basic

You are not responding to the point...

The point near as I can figure is the dude is assuming Lansdowne speaks for God...

No thats not the case.

Pretty much that ..."dude" with his question he reveals the errors in the evangelical view. Thats why it hasnt been answered.

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blackregiment

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#284 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

And I don't see why God's law is not intended to remove man's free will when it comes to wanting to own another human being, but God has no problem removing man's free will when it comes to murder.

-Sun_Tzu-

What are you talking about? Man has a free will to choose to obey God or choose to disobey Him. That is the essence of free will. God doesn't "step in" and stop people from murdering others or enslaving others. If He did that, there would be no abortion, murder, or slavery or free will. Man chooses which path he will follow, the God of the Bible's or the god of this world's.

God proclaims "Thou shall not murder", and yet God never says "Thou shall not own another man". Sorry if I hadn't been clear enough.

You might want to read the link I provided.

Oh an yea, diod for forget the Commandment, "Thou shall not covet"?

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Teenaged

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#285 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] Just to point something out....demons won't be the punishers.....they will be the punished, along with all those who reject the sacrifice Christ made upon the Cross of Calvary some 2000 years ago. warbmxjohn

You are not responding to the point...

Probably because the point was valid and strong.

I know... ^_^

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deactivated-5901ac91d8e33

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#286 deactivated-5901ac91d8e33
Member since 2004 • 17092 Posts
I fail to see why an all powerful being would want to create this maze of dogma and ludicrous ways of getting into "heaven". Why would he care about us believing in him? Why would he crave all this attention? It's so obviously a human construct. I'm certainly not rejecting the idea of a God, but this humanization of him is completely ridiculous, in my opinion. Salvation through Jesus? Come on guys...
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warbmxjohn

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#287 warbmxjohn
Member since 2007 • 6014 Posts

Here is my question. God does not sin right? Ok well jealousy is a sin according to god right? Well in the bible it says "thou shall not worship false idols". Why can we not, is god a jealous god?

TheGreatOutdoor
Interesting point.
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Lansdowne5

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#288 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

I think He would.....and it's not for us to judge others as worthy or not.

LJS9502_basic

Wait.....what? The entire New Testament pretty much yells, "SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS!" Do you believe people can be saved another way, other than by salvation through Christ?

The New Testament is the teaching for those who follow. Faith is considered a gift. If one is not given a gift they won't be penalized for that.

Edit: Man is till judged on his actions.

John 3:16 --"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Acts 10:43 -- "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

Romans 5:2 -- "Through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Ephesians 2:8 -- "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

Romans 3:22 -- "Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference."

Acts 16:31 -- "They said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

John 3:36 -- "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Galatians 2:16 -- "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

It's perfectly clear from these verses alone that those who reject Jesus will not get to Heaven. They will be judged, and they will be judged guilty.

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Wings_008

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#289 Wings_008
Member since 2008 • 3813 Posts

Here is my question. God does not sin right? Ok well jealousy is a sin according to god right? Well in the bible it says "thou shall not worship false idols". Why can we not, is god a jealous god?

TheGreatOutdoor

okay how about the fact that god doesnt exist at all

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Teenaged

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#290 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

To flesh out my opinion. Human beings are formed by outside factors such as society and coincidental events. Our mindset is created as a result of these factors playing in on our social life. If I don't believe in God, it's because these outside factors has prevented the mentioned mindset from accepting his existence, my mind require a larger amount of evidence than certain others...it's not something I can help. How the hell can God judge me when this is the case? jointed
I agree with this, Especially the second sentence.

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blackregiment

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#291 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]You are not responding to the point...

Teenaged

The point near as I can figure is the dude is assuming Lansdowne speaks for God...

No thats not the case.

Pretty much that ..."dude" with his question he reveals the errors in the evangelical view. Thats why it hasnt been answered.

The fallacy in your premise is that it not the "evangelical view", it is what God has revealed in His Word. It's God's view.

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LJS9502_basic

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#292 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178860 Posts

Lansdowne5

Nice copy/paste but that speaks to the FAITHFUL. It does NOT address those who have not the gift of faith. Glad to clear that up for you.:)

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Lansdowne5

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#293 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

You are not responding to the point...

Teenaged

I don't intend to....either. It's been explained hundreds of times before. I was simply explaining that demons will be punished alongside humans. :)

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LJS9502_basic

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#294 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178860 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]You are not responding to the point...

Teenaged

The point near as I can figure is the dude is assuming Lansdowne speaks for God...

No thats not the case.

Pretty much that ..."dude" with his question he reveals the errors in the evangelical view. Thats why it hasnt been answered.

You cut the quote off or I'd show you why he is assuming Lansdowne speaks for God.

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tktomo01

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#295 tktomo01
Member since 2008 • 1476 Posts
If you live by the Ten Commandments, never commit the Seven Deadly Sins, then I would say you could make it in. Or go to confession before you think you are going to die to be without sin while wearing one of those necklace things (forgot the name), and you shall have instant access to Heaven.
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Teenaged

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#296 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The point near as I can figure is the dude is assuming Lansdowne speaks for God...

blackregiment

No thats not the case.

Pretty much that ..."dude" with his question he reveals the errors in the evangelical view. Thats why it hasnt been answered.

The fallacy in your premise is that it not the "evangelical view", it is what God has revealed in His Word. It's God's view.

The fallacy in your premise is that your perception of the word of god is the right one. Thus its not God's view. Its what you have chose to "extract" from it, from a strictly literal reading of the Bible.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#297 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

What are you talking about? Man has a free will to choose to obey God or choose to disobey Him. That is the essence of free will. God doesn't "step in" and stop people from murdering others or enslaving others. If He did that, there would be no abortion, murder, or slavery or free will. Man chooses which path he will follow, the God of the Bible's or the god of this world's.

blackregiment

God proclaims "Thou shall not murder", and yet God never says "Thou shall not own another man". Sorry if I hadn't been clear enough.

You might want to read the link I provided.

Oh an yea, diod for forget the Commandment, "Thou shall not covet"?

I did read it, and all it said is that since the bible condemned some acts of slavery it's all good. Your article ignores, however, that the bible encourages enslavement at times.

Deuteronomy 21:10-11- "10When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,

11And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;"

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Teenaged

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#298 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The point near as I can figure is the dude is assuming Lansdowne speaks for God...

LJS9502_basic

No thats not the case.

Pretty much that ..."dude" with his question he reveals the errors in the evangelical view. Thats why it hasnt been answered.

You cut the quote off or I'd show you why he is assuming Lansdowne speaks for God.

Well the forums dont allow more than three quotes. :? They are automatically cut. :?

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Lansdowne5

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#299 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

Nice copy/paste but that speaks to the FAITHFUL. It does NOT address those who have not the gift of faith. Glad to clear that up for you.:)

LJS9502_basic

What, you expect me to type those out myself? :?

It is directed at everyone. And even if it wasn't, it talks of everyone. So....have you ever read this book called Revelation......? It makes pretty clear that everyone who rejects God will be thrown into the lake of burning sulfer along with the False Prophet, the Beast and the Devil.

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AnnoyedDragon

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#300 AnnoyedDragon
Member since 2006 • 9948 Posts

Errr, I thought hell was actually just seperation from god rather then the fire and brimstone we're told as kids,

Can someone clarify?

Siofen

As with the people who have said they believe none believers do go to heaven if they are good people, it is self comfort.

People are religious to stave off the fear of death, they may not even understand their own religion; just claim to be a member of it either through upbringing or self choice. They are selective believers, believing and preaching what they like from the Bible and ignoring the parts that they do not.

Christianity teaches if you don't accept Christ you go to hell, being a good person is irrelevant if you don't accept Christ.

As for hell.

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Revelation 20:14).

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame " (Luke 16:24)