Will God Let Good People Into Heaven? (Poll)

If you never heard, you're still going to Hell.Crushmaster

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]If you never heard, you're still going to Hell.Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]If you never heard, you're still going to Hell.Funky_Llama

The god I believe in would let good people into heaven.

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]If you never heard, you're still going to Hell.Funky_Llama

Well, there's always my interpretation of the Bible if people don't like that one... *whistles*

:P

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Crushmaster"]If you never heard, you're still going to Hell.GabuEx

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Crushmaster"]If you never heard, you're still going to Hell.GabuEx

Well, there's always my interpretation of the Bible if people don't like that one... *whistles*

:P

I'm listening... :|

scorch-62

In a teeny-tiny nutshell without any supporting material:

I believe that "belief" in Jesus as exhorted in the Bible is not factual belief, but rather belief in one's spiritual leader - the trust and confidence that following his path and his instructions will not lead us astray in life and will make both our lives fulfilling and our world better.

I believe that God loves everyone on Earth and wants us to be happy, but cannot intervene in our lives for the same reason that giving a child everything he wants spoils him rather than making him happy.

I believe that people are ultimately saved not just because they jumped through some arbitrary hoops, but because they aspired to live a life like Jesus', filled with compassion and love for his or her fellow man.

Finally, I believe that hell is not the eternal torture chamber it is presented as in its mainstream image, but rather is a place of purification, where the lost souls who died without recognizing the beauty in Jesus' message are given a corrective punishment whose ultimate goal is to reconcile them with God, not to simply inflict pain for all eternity.

All of this is taken directly from my reading of the Bible (and the original Greek and Hebrew where appropriate, as there are certain words in those languages that cannot be adequately translated using an English word).

I think if you are religious (not a specific religion) and try your best to follow it and praise and love god (once again not specific) than you will go to Heaven. Honestly there are to many religions saying that following that specific religion is the only way to heaven for anybody to really know for sure. However since there is only one god (in my mind) than it is possible he goes by many names and people everywhere are worshipping the same god.

In essence, it was not God talking in that scripture that was posted.

stepnkev

It doesn't matter who said it or wrote it. It says that god loves the world. If that isn't true then it shouldn't be in the Bible.

[QUOTE="scorch-62"]I'm listening... :|GabuEx

In a teeny-tiny nutshell without any supporting material:

I believe that "belief" in Jesus as exhorted in the Bible is not factual belief, but rather belief in one's spiritual leader - the trust and confidence that following his path and his instructions will not lead us astray in life and will make both our lives fulfilling and our world better.

I believe that God loves everyone on Earth and wants us to be happy, but cannot intervene in our lives for the same reason that giving a child everything he wants spoils him rather than making him happy.

I believe that people are ultimately saved not just because they jumped through some arbitrary hoops, but because they aspired to live a life like Jesus', filled with compassion and love for his fellow man.

Finally, I believe that hell is not the eternal torture chamber it is presented in the mainstream looks at it, but rather is a place of purification, where the lost souls who died without recognizing the beauty in Jesus' message are given a corrective punishment whose ultimate goal is to reconcile them with God, not to simply inflict pain for all eternity.

All of this is taken directly from my reading of the Bible (and the original Greek and Hebrew where appropriate, as there are certain words in those languages that cannot be adequately translated using an English word).

Wow... that actually kind of makes sense.scorch-62

It did to me, too, which is why my realization of what the Bible truly says made me ultimately convert (or, more accurately, simply realize what I had always been).

I can certainly present where I get that from, if you're curious; I don't expect anyone to take my word at face value.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] The Bible is not god's word it has been tampered and tainted by man for nearly 2000 years of being rewritten. There is no telling how much is truthful if indeed the Bible is suppose to be the word of god.. Not to mention the Bible is not quite clear what is metaphorical and what it isn't, so you have people to this day who believe Noah's Ark as the literal truth. Crushmaster

same reason why you wouldn't believe the koran is the word of god

The Genesis union....that's just sad.

For the people that say God will let people into heaven if they're "good". Explain a good person, please? I'm a Christian, and I think I'm a pretty good person outside. But in all honesty, inside, and I think all of us can relate to this (or all of us who aren't stubborn to look), that we're not good, and that we've done things we've regretted. Whether that involves hurting someone (emotionally or physically), lusting, stealing, drugs, smoking, pornography, etc...and if we actually look at the things we've done in our lives (again anyone who's not stubborn enough to look at what he/she has done in his/her lifetime), we see that we're not perfect and although on the outside we might be good on the inside we're most certainly not. Being a Christian means that we know we can't be "perfect" or "good" because we're human and it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so. Anyone who's truly a Christian knows that they need a Savior or else life means nothing and there's no point to it besides riches, pleasure, and so called "happiness" which will all end when you die.

And for the people that say "if God hates evil why did create it." Well that's another topic entirely that I don't want to go into right now. Feel free to message me though.

I wouldn't define what I just said as "preaching" but sorry if you think this was "preaching" or if I kinda went over the line and broke some gamespot rules. :P Didn't meant to. Just wanted to respond to a question with an in-depth answer.

Don't believe in god, ya dig!

For the people that say God will let people into heaven if they're "good". Explain a good person, please? I'm a Christian, and I think I'm a pretty good person outside. But in all honesty, inside, and I think all of us can relate to this (or all of us who aren't stubborn to look), that we're not good, and that we've done things we've regretted. Whether that involves hurting someone (emotionally or physically), lusting, stealing, drugs, smoking, pornography, etc...and if we actually look at the things we've done in our lives (again anyone who's not stubborn enough to look at what he/she has done in his/her lifetime), we see that we're not perfect and although on the outside we might be good on the inside we're most certainly not. Being a Christian means that we know we can't be "perfect" or "good" because we're human and it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so. Anyone who's truly a Christian knows that they need a Savior or else life means nothing and there's no point to it besides riches, pleasure, and so called "happiness" which will all end when you die.

Dtrav

But the problem there, though, is that again and again, in response to questions for how one may obtain eternal life, Jesus said what the person must do. Not what the person must believe. Luke 10:25-28 is a good example of this. And in Matthew 25:31-46, in which Jesus describes the righteous being separated from the unrighteous, the differentiator was that the righteous has cared for those in need, whereas the unrighteous had not. And in John 14:21, Jesus says that whoever has his commands and obeys them is the one who loves him.

In addition to that, the Greek word translated into "believe" in verses like John 3:16 is pisteuo, which, when applied to a person, implies not factual belief, but rather confidence in that person - confidence that following him will not lead you astray in life.

This all comes together to me to form a consistent narrative: what matters is how we conduct ourselves in life and why we conduct ourselves in that way - not some arbitrary hoop such as proclaiming that Jesus Christ is now your Lord and Savior. Jesus never once said that one must accept him as their Lord and Savior and that nothing else matters; in fact, that claim would fly in the face of all the things that he did teach, really.

[QUOTE="Dtrav"]

For the people that say God will let people into heaven if they're "good". Explain a good person, please? I'm a Christian, and I think I'm a pretty good person outside. But in all honesty, inside, and I think all of us can relate to this (or all of us who aren't stubborn to look), that we're not good, and that we've done things we've regretted. Whether that involves hurting someone (emotionally or physically), lusting, stealing, drugs, smoking, pornography, etc...and if we actually look at the things we've done in our lives (again anyone who's not stubborn enough to look at what he/she has done in his/her lifetime), we see that we're not perfect and although on the outside we might be good on the inside we're most certainly not. Being a Christian means that we know we can't be "perfect" or "good" because we're human and it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so. Anyone who's truly a Christian knows that they need a Savior or else life means nothing and there's no point to it besides riches, pleasure, and so called "happiness" which will all end when you die.

GabuEx

But the problem there, though, is that again and again, in response to questions for how one may obtain eternal life, Jesus said what the person must do. Not what the person must believe. Luke 10:25-28 is a good example of this. And in Matthew 25:31-46, in which Jesus describes the righteous being separated from the unrighteous, the differentiator was that the righteous has cared for those in need, whereas the unrighteous had not. And in John 14:21, Jesus says that whoever has his commands and obeys them is the one who loves him.

In addition to that, the Greek word translated into "believe" in verses like John 3:16 is pisteuo, which, when applied to a person, implies not factual belief, but rather confidence in that person - confidence that following him will not lead you astray in life.

This all comes together to me to form a consistent narrative: what matters is how we conduct ourselves in life and why we conduct ourselves in that way - not some arbitrary hoop such as proclaiming that Jesus Christ is now your Lord and Savior. Jesus never once said that one must accept him as their Lord and Savior and that nothing else matters; in fact, that claim would fly in the face of all the things that he did teach, really.

I disagree. The whole counsel of the Word of God teaches that saving faith requires one to repent and believe in Christ's death in payment for our sins and in His resurrection. Once one has a saving relationship with Christ, that saving faith will be manifested in good works in service to the Lord. Without Christ we remain in our sins, eternally separted from God. Only through Christ can we bridge that gap of separation and be reunited with Him, both temporally and eternally.

pisteuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G4102
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849

pistis
Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3982
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849

Strong's Greek/Hebrew dictionary

pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[QUOTE="scorch-62"]

I'm listening... :|

GabuEx

I believe that people are ultimately saved not just because they jumped through some arbitrary hoops, but because they aspired to live a life like Jesus', filled with compassion and love for his or her fellow man.

I disagree. The whole counsel of the Word of God reveals that salvations is by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. When one has a saving relationship with Christ, that saving faith is manifested in good works in service to the Lord, including love towards others and obedience to the Lord's commands. Those works are the fruit of saving relationship with Christ, not the path to salvation. Man cannot ern his way to Heaven through good works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

There is no hell, nor is there a heaven. There's no God either. 0Tyler0

Depends on what you call a good person. Someone who follows every commandment to its fullest extent or someone, I don't know... human! From what I understand. The average person probably won't go to heaven. :twisted:

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="scorch-62"]

I'm listening... :|

blackregiment

I believe that people are ultimately saved not just because they jumped through some arbitrary hoops, but because they aspired to live a life like Jesus', filled with compassion and love for his or her fellow man.

I disagree. The whole counsel of the Word of God reveals that salvations is by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. When one has a saving relationship with Christ, that saving faith is manifested in good works in service to the Lord, including love towards others and obedience to the Lord's commands. Those works are the fruit of saving relationship with Christ, not the path to salvation. Man cannot ern his way to Heaven through good works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Dtrav"]

For the people that say God will let people into heaven if they're "good". Explain a good person, please? I'm a Christian, and I think I'm a pretty good person outside. But in all honesty, inside, and I think all of us can relate to this (or all of us who aren't stubborn to look), that we're not good, and that we've done things we've regretted. Whether that involves hurting someone (emotionally or physically), lusting, stealing, drugs, smoking, pornography, etc...and if we actually look at the things we've done in our lives (again anyone who's not stubborn enough to look at what he/she has done in his/her lifetime), we see that we're not perfect and although on the outside we might be good on the inside we're most certainly not. Being a Christian means that we know we can't be "perfect" or "good" because we're human and it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so. Anyone who's truly a Christian knows that they need a Savior or else life means nothing and there's no point to it besides riches, pleasure, and so called "happiness" which will all end when you die.

blackregiment

But the problem there, though, is that again and again, in response to questions for how one may obtain eternal life, Jesus said what the person must do. Not what the person must believe. Luke 10:25-28 is a good example of this. And in Matthew 25:31-46, in which Jesus describes the righteous being separated from the unrighteous, the differentiator was that the righteous has cared for those in need, whereas the unrighteous had not. And in John 14:21, Jesus says that whoever has his commands and obeys them is the one who loves him.

In addition to that, the Greek word translated into "believe" in verses like John 3:16 is pisteuo, which, when applied to a person, implies not factual belief, but rather confidence in that person - confidence that following him will not lead you astray in life.

This all comes together to me to form a consistent narrative: what matters is how we conduct ourselves in life and why we conduct ourselves in that way - not some arbitrary hoop such as proclaiming that Jesus Christ is now your Lord and Savior. Jesus never once said that one must accept him as their Lord and Savior and that nothing else matters; in fact, that claim would fly in the face of all the things that he did teach, really.

I disagree. The whole counsel of the Word of God teaches that saving faith requires one to repent and believe in Christ's death in payment for our sins and in His resurrection. Once one has a saving relationship with Christ, that saving faith will be manifested in good works in service to the Lord. Without Christ we remain in our sins, eternally separted from God. Only through Christ can we bridge that gap of separation and be reunited with Him, both temporally and eternally.

pisteuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G4102
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849

pistis
Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3982
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849

Strong's Greek/Hebrew dictionary

pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Any god that punishes good people fordoinggood deedsdoesn't deserve to be worshiped.

Interesting expression I heard; Hitler burned the jews, and that is why we call him evil, god will burn the jews forever, and that's why we call him just".

At least with hitler it was only temporary....

LostProphetFLCL

If god existed and he were like the judea-christian god, then no.

if god does exist and he doesn't totally suck, then yes

isn't god supposed to be nice??? ( i don't beleive in god.)

just an FYI BR, you're bolding what is largely considered personal annotative definition (hence the b, sub categories, etc). in other words, definitions added on request from others like you. best to keep to the original vanilla definitions, no?

3picuri3

Indeed. If there's one thing that I would strongly caution people against, it's trusting definitions of words that attempt to special-case the Bible. Such a thing would suggest that the writers of the Bible intended to redefine words, which is, of course, rather silly; the Bible was written first and foremost to be understood by those reading it - it does contain rather important instructions, after all - and that would be utterly impossible if it nonsensically used words in a sense that had never been seen before.

Far from being objective definitions as one might expect to find in Merriam-Webster or Oxford, such definitions are basically an attempt to reconcile what the Bible actually says with what people want it to say. To attempt to define pisteuo to specifically mean "saving faith" is absurd to the extreme - one does not even need to understand Greek to be able to see this fact - but it is nonetheless necessary if one wishes to force into the Bible the idea that for one to be saved, one must accept Jesus as one's Lord and Savior and believe him to be the Son of God.

Me, I personally prefer an interpretation of the Bible that does not require me to special-case the Bible when defining several of the Greek and Hebrew words used therein... for what I hope to be obvious reasons.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I believe that people are ultimately saved not just because they jumped through some arbitrary hoops, but because they aspired to live a life like Jesus', filled with compassion and love for his or her fellow man.

3picuri3

I disagree. The whole counsel of the Word of God reveals that salvations is by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. When one has a saving relationship with Christ, that saving faith is manifested in good works in service to the Lord, including love towards others and obedience to the Lord's commands. Those works are the fruit of saving relationship with Christ, not the path to salvation. Man cannot ern his way to Heaven through good works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Making a claim like that is quite easy, anyone can do it. Being able to back that assertion up with Scripture , taken from the whole counsel of God's Word is quite another thing. You are welcome to try. :)

[QUOTE="LostProphetFLCL"]

Interesting expression I heard; Hitler burned the jews, and that is why we call him evil, god will burn the jews forever, and that's why we call him just".

At least with hitler it was only temporary....

3picuri3

I have no idea.

Interesting expression I heard; Hitler burned the jews, and that is why we call him evil, god will burn the jews forever, and that's why we call him just".

At least with hitler it was only temporary....

LostProphetFLCL

Me, I personally prefer an interpretation of the Bible that does not require me to special-case the Bible when defining several of the Greek and Hebrew words used therein... for what I hope to be obvious reasons.

GabuEx

What I want to know, is how every bible translator so far has got it wrong. There have been countless revisions carried out by people who've studied the original texts, and the usage of language in that time period all their lives -- godly people who have wanted nothing more than to understand the true meaning of God's Word. I simply cannot accept two things, a) that every single bible translator so far has been incorrect in translating the Greek word into "eternal" or "everlasting" in the context of punishment, yet you happen to be correct, and b) that God would actually allow His Word to yield the conviction of a lie.

[QUOTE="LostProphetFLCL"]

Interesting expression I heard; Hitler burned the jews, and that is why we call him evil, god will burn the jews forever, and that's why we call him just".

At least with hitler it was only temporary....

Lansdowne5

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="LostProphetFLCL"]

Interesting expression I heard; Hitler burned the jews, and that is why we call him evil, god will burn the jews forever, and that's why we call him just".

At least with hitler it was only temporary....

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I don't see how an eternal punishment for finite crimes is just. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Me, I personally prefer an interpretation of the Bible that does not require me to special-case the Bible when defining several of the Greek and Hebrew words used therein... for what I hope to be obvious reasons.

Lansdowne5

What I want to know, is how every bible translator so far has got it wrong. There have been countless revisions carried out by people who've studied the original texts, and the usage of language in that time period all their lives -- godly people who have wanted nothing more than to understand the true meaning of God's Word. I simply cannot accept two things, a) that every single bible translator so far has been incorrect in translating the Greek word into "eternal" or "everlasting" in the context of punishment, yet you happen to be correct, and b) that God would actually allow His Word to yield the conviction of a lie.

Those are excellent points. Another point that one must fully understand is that the Bible in general, and the New Testament in specific, is addressed to the body of believers. The body of believers, Christ's Church on earth, are those that have put their faith and trust in Christ. It must be interpreted in light of that truth. One cannot interpret it in light of secular thought and redefine what God has said to the reasoning, word definitions, hopes, and wishes of the secular world. The Bible is very clear that without Christ the world is lost. The whole purpose of Christ's coming was to save the lost, to bridge the gap between fallen man and God. Christ died to pay the price of the sins of those that put their faith and trust in Him and Him alone for their salvation. The word of God is very clear about this.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

One must take a very esoteric path and use a lot of eisogesis to come to the conclusion that salvation is attainable though our works apart from Christ, or that without Christ one can be saved.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] Sin is infinite unless removed by the Lord -- thus, it warrants an infinite punishment.Lansdowne5

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I don't see how an eternal punishment for finite crimes is just. -Sun_Tzu-

That reasoning is attempting to hold and judge our holy, righteous, and just God, our supreme Creator, and His standards of eternal, infinite, and perfect justice, to and by His temporal creation's standards of justice. It just doesn't work that way.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Jer 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.