The real evidence that prayer does not work.

[QUOTE="superheromonkey"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="superheromonkey"]

So I gaze over the twenty pages of this thread and I wonder to myself...how many people have changed their minds on anything thanks to this thread. Anybody?

Funky_Llama

I suggest praying for wisdom in which settings are best to debate about beliefs in an effective manner so something productive may come from it. I would also suggest praying for deity-slapper...he needs it.

"Prayer: The idea that god's plans are so unimportant he will change them if you ask him to."

Prayer for me, is more about God changing me than God giving me everything I ask for...I pray for nothing to prevent his will, because God has said already it is His will that none should perish. The fact that human's can have wills and defy God's will is free will. But i will say that I don't pray as much as i used to.Like hardly ever.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]"Prayer: The idea that god's plans are so unimportant he will change them if you ask him to."123625

Prayer be more than asking for things.

Personal favours from God still remain a strong element of prayer.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="superheromonkey"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="superheromonkey"]

So I gaze over the twenty pages of this thread and I wonder to myself...how many people have changed their minds on anything thanks to this thread. Anybody?

superheromonkey

I suggest praying for wisdom in which settings are best to debate about beliefs in an effective manner so something productive may come from it. I would also suggest praying for deity-slapper...he needs it.

"Prayer: The idea that god's plans are so unimportant he will change them if you ask him to."

Prayer for me, is more about God changing me than God giving me everything I ask for...I pray for nothing to prevent his will, because God has said already it is His will that none should perish. The fact that human's can have wills and defy God's will is free will. But i will say that I don't pray as much as i used to.Like hardly ever.

It's God's will that none shall perish? For an omnipotent being, he's doing a pretty bad job of that.

[QUOTE="superheromonkey"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="superheromonkey"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="superheromonkey"]

no emotion is a sin. Only actions or thoughts. Not thoughts that pop into your head either, even though it may be argued that they are a result from sin nature, but thoughts that are dwelt on and enjoyed, like sexual thoughts and in my case thoughts about punching people in the head repeatedly, are considered sinful.

Funky_Llama

Yes, LJ already pointed out that no emotion is sinful. What's your point?

My point is that llamas should not be arguing about religion on video game websites. I will shear your.

Sorry, i guess I was not following closely. The fall of man caused a corruption of human nature that made all that sinful stuff desirable. So while God created sex drive for a good purpose, it has been corrupted and abused and manipulated by satan to the point where promiscuity is glorified and homosexuality is a norm. So God did not hardwire things like sex drive and anger in us to cause us to fall, but they have been screwed with. That is what i was taught anyway...

I never suggested that God take away free will. I suggested that he could have not made such an apparently bad job of creating humanity in the first place.

Well he thought he did a good job. I guess it is a matter of opinion. If by bad job you mean, gave them the capacity to choose evil, then yes that would be bad.

[QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]"Prayer: The idea that god's plans are so unimportant he will change them if you ask him to."Funky_Llama

Prayer be more than asking for things.

Personal favours from God still remain a strong element of prayer.

True, but your definition should include all the things about prayer then.

[QUOTE="superheromonkey"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="superheromonkey"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="superheromonkey"]

So I gaze over the twenty pages of this thread and I wonder to myself...how many people have changed their minds on anything thanks to this thread. Anybody?

Funky_Llama

I suggest praying for wisdom in which settings are best to debate about beliefs in an effective manner so something productive may come from it. I would also suggest praying for deity-slapper...he needs it.

"Prayer: The idea that god's plans are so unimportant he will change them if you ask him to."

Prayer for me, is more about God changing me than God giving me everything I ask for...I pray for nothing to prevent his will, because God has said already it is His will that none should perish. The fact that human's can have wills and defy God's will is free will. But i will say that I don't pray as much as i used to.Like hardly ever.

It's God's will that none shall perish? For an omnipotent being, he's doing a pretty bad job of that.

You don't like this concept of free will, do you? or maybe you would have liked it if God made the right thing the same thing as the pleasurable thing perhaps?

Well he thought he did a good job. I guess it is a matter of opinion. If by bad job you mean, gave them the capacity to choose evil, then yes that would be bad.

superheromonkey

That's my point: God created humans as flawed creatures, and then condemned them on the basis of said flaws. Not exactly fair.

You don't like this concept of free will, do you? or maybe you would have liked it if God made the right thing the same thing as the pleasurable thing perhaps?

superheromonkey

When did I mention free will? Most deaths aren't because of free will. When someone dies of cancer, that's not because of free will. When someone dies in an earthquake, that's not free will. God could easily prevent these deaths without impinging on free will anyway. Besides which, saying "you can do what you want, but if you do the wrong thing I'll punish to for eternity" is not free will.

And, well, yeah, of course it would make sense for God to make the right thing pleasurable. Gives an incentive.

Anyway, off to college.

[QUOTE="superheromonkey"]

Well he thought he did a good job. I guess it is a matter of opinion. If by bad job you mean, gave them the capacity to choose evil, then yes that would be bad.

Funky_Llama

That's my point: God created humans as flawed creatures, and then condemned them on the basis of said flaws. Not exactly fair.

Let me lay out the christian perspective before i go to school...

1. God wants friends who are not obligated to serve him, because who only wants people to serve you because they have to.

2. God creates man

3. God gave man free will so that he can choose to do evil

4. God gave man a test, so man could actually choose wrong

5. Man fails test.

6. Man now has sin, which contradicts the very nature of God, so God must cast man out.

7. God still loves man, however, so makes a new way to get to save them.

8. This plan involves coming to earth and get brutally beaten so the perfect sacrifice would atone for the sins of man.

9. Man now must claim this blood and dedicate their lives to God, not necessarily be perfect, but live repentant lives.

10. it is all good in the hood.

[QUOTE="superheromonkey"]

You don't like this concept of free will, do you? or maybe you would have liked it if God made the right thing the same thing as the pleasurable thing perhaps?

Funky_Llama

When did I mention free will? Most deaths aren't because of free will. When someone dies of cancer, that's not because of free will. When someone dies in an earthquake, that's not free will. God could easily prevent these deaths without impinging on free will anyway. Besides which, saying "you can do what you want, but if you do the wrong thing I'll punish to for eternity" is not free will.

And, well, yeah, of course it would make sense for God to make the right thing pleasurable. Gives an incentive.

Anyway, off to college.

Yes it is free will. Free will is deciding you get to choose your path. There are certain consquences for the path you choose... God could prevent deaths from natural disaster, God could prevent death period, but it would be breaking the system that is already in place. God did not create the natural world so that he could bend all the rules all the time. You might not agree with God, but there are repercussions from the fall of man, and natural disasters are one of them. You might think the fall of man was insignificant and should not bring about all that it has, its not fair, but God does not think so apparantly, since this whole sin thing is the most important thing the world has faced in his opinion. So they(the natural disasters) are a fact of life now, a reminder of how the world is not perfect, a reminder of how devastating sin is. Again, the problem of evil is a problem of God's will vs man's will. Man's will leads to disaster. God's will=life There are plenty of intelligent philosophers that have made eloquent arguments about how a loving God can exist in a world of disaster, look em up if you want the best arguments.

...all this and I don't know if God even exists myself. I definitely think it is reasonable that he could exist though.

Bah this is just practically a troll thread now.domatron23

I know, Deity_Slapper really doesn't seem to be doing much for hsi image or the atheist agenda. I think this is the polar opposite to Revinh's tyrades.

[QUOTE="domatron23"]Bah this is just practically a troll thread now.Red-XIII

I know, Deity_Slapper really doesn't seem to be doing much for hsi image or the atheist agenda. I think this is the polar opposite to Revinh's tyrades.

At least Revinh wasn't such a big meanie.

[QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"]

This entire argument, that why did God subject humans to the "test", is negated by the concept that "We ourselves chose to enter this world and be a part of this test".

And my point on death is, that according to religion death is not something to be feared. It will happen, and is simply a gateway to an eternal life...........

Funky_Llama

Well, ignoring for a minute the issue of whether the concept is true or not (I'd rather this didn't degenerate into 'can you trust the Qur'an?), why do people accept the test? What is the alternative? And if I accepted that test, why don't I believe in God?

Or, indeed, eternal suffering it you're unlucky enough not to worship the right God. Yup, it's like a lottery, except that if you don't win, you're tortured for eternity.

I don't know about the alternative part, perhaps unexistence.Why don't you believe, if you accepted the test? Obviously because, the test would lose the meaning. Would you do a single wrong, if you remembered that thing? It's like, now you have equal chance of doing good and bad, both.

Oh, and according to Hadith of the Prophet, there have been cases where unbelievers were pardoned by God on basis of their kindness.

Unexistence? So I suddently come into being, only to be confronted by God, who demands that either I have my memory wiped and get plonked into Earth, or I cease to exist? What kind of a choice is that? Unexistence can be ruled out, since it's incompatible with a just God. And yes, I'm aware you said perhaps unexistence. And you make a good point about morality - problem is, it goes in my favour. You say yourself that people would be more moral if they remembered God's existence; so it would make sense for him to allow them to do so.

Ah, so only some unbelievers are tormented forever. Well that's alright then. :roll:

I know I said that people will be more moral, but I also asked that will the "test" have any meaning after it?

And:

It was reported in Saheeh Muslim that Aboo Sa'eed al-Khudree (may Allah be pleased with him) said: "The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 'As for the people of Hell, they are its inhabitants, and they neither live therein nor die. But there are people who will enter Hell because of their sins – or mistakes – so Allah will cause them to die once, then when they become like coal, He will give permission for intercession (for them). They will be brought group by group to the rivers of Paradise.

BTW, I am not so sure, I do think that there will be some people who will be eternally punished (let me research more, and then I will reply).

It'd be better without a test in the first place.

Eternal punishment, really, is never fair; infinity divided by a finite number is infinity, thus infinite punishment is infinitely disproportionate for finite sin. Besides which, what's the point of retributive punishment anyway? The urge for revenge is a pathetic human instinct that religion is more than happy to pander to.

But as I have told, we ourselves chose to take this test.

The hadith I posted clarifies, that eternal damnation for sins(for most) will not take place and most people will be pardoned and allowed to enter heaven.

As far as those few who might be eternally punished, I have to do more research before I can comment.

whew, really jumping to conclusions there aren't ya? I guess you know more than God Himself? I have an idea, let's kill God and put "Delty_Slapper" in charge of the universe. Then we can all live in peace.....mohfrontline

How was he jumping to conclusions? That prayer doesn't work is a reasonable conclusion to come to given the evidence.

Sometimes i have my doubts about praying..i'vebeen praying for something this couple of weeks and this problem instead of getting better gets worse..dont know what to think..MojondeVACA

God already knows your predicament. Telling him really is unnecessary.

But as I have told, we ourselves chose to take this test.

The hadith I posted clarifies, that eternal damnation for sins(for most) will not take place and most people will be pardoned and allowed to enter heaven.

As far as those few who might be eternally punished, I have to do more research before I can comment.

MFaraz_Hayat

I don't recall choosing to take the test. Just because you say so, doesn't make it valid.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="superheromonkey"]

You don't like this concept of free will, do you? or maybe you would have liked it if God made the right thing the same thing as the pleasurable thing perhaps?

superheromonkey

When did I mention free will? Most deaths aren't because of free will. When someone dies of cancer, that's not because of free will. When someone dies in an earthquake, that's not free will. God could easily prevent these deaths without impinging on free will anyway. Besides which, saying "you can do what you want, but if you do the wrong thing I'll punish to for eternity" is not free will.

And, well, yeah, of course it would make sense for God to make the right thing pleasurable. Gives an incentive.

Anyway, off to college.

Yes it is free will. Free will is deciding you get to choose your path. There are certain consquences for the path you choose... God could prevent deaths from natural disaster, God could prevent death period, but it would be breaking the system that is already in place. God did not create the natural world so that he could bend all the rules all the time. You might not agree with God, but there are repercussions from the fall of man, and natural disasters are one of them. You might think the fall of man was insignificant and should not bring about all that it has, its not fair, but God does not think so apparantly, since this whole sin thing is the most important thing the world has faced in his opinion. So they(the natural disasters) are a fact of life now, a reminder of how the world is not perfect, a reminder of how devastating sin is. Again, the problem of evil is a problem of God's will vs man's will. Man's will leads to disaster. God's will=life There are plenty of intelligent philosophers that have made eloquent arguments about how a loving God can exist in a world of disaster, look em up if you want the best arguments.

...all this and I don't know if God even exists myself. I definitely think it is reasonable that he could exist though.

I'd think that God would have the sense not to place humans on a planet that regularly kills some of them. Free will has nothing to do with this. Also... "Well, God disagrees" is not an adequate response, not least because it is unproven.

And yes, I am aware of some of the attempted answers to the problem of evil, 'attempted' being the key word.

[QUOTE="superheromonkey"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="superheromonkey"]

You don't like this concept of free will, do you? or maybe you would have liked it if God made the right thing the same thing as the pleasurable thing perhaps?

Funky_Llama

When did I mention free will? Most deaths aren't because of free will. When someone dies of cancer, that's not because of free will. When someone dies in an earthquake, that's not free will. God could easily prevent these deaths without impinging on free will anyway. Besides which, saying "you can do what you want, but if you do the wrong thing I'll punish to for eternity" is not free will.

And, well, yeah, of course it would make sense for God to make the right thing pleasurable. Gives an incentive.

Anyway, off to college.

Yes it is free will. Free will is deciding you get to choose your path. There are certain consquences for the path you choose... God could prevent deaths from natural disaster, God could prevent death period, but it would be breaking the system that is already in place. God did not create the natural world so that he could bend all the rules all the time. You might not agree with God, but there are repercussions from the fall of man, and natural disasters are one of them. You might think the fall of man was insignificant and should not bring about all that it has, its not fair, but God does not think so apparantly, since this whole sin thing is the most important thing the world has faced in his opinion. So they(the natural disasters) are a fact of life now, a reminder of how the world is not perfect, a reminder of how devastating sin is. Again, the problem of evil is a problem of God's will vs man's will. Man's will leads to disaster. God's will=life There are plenty of intelligent philosophers that have made eloquent arguments about how a loving God can exist in a world of disaster, look em up if you want the best arguments.

...all this and I don't know if God even exists myself. I definitely think it is reasonable that he could exist though.

I'd think that God would have the sense not to place humans on a planet that regularly kills some of them. Free will has nothing to do with this. Also... "Well, God disagrees" is not an adequate response, not least because it is unproven.

And yes, I am aware of some of the attempted answers to the problem of evil, 'attempted' being the key word.

Lol. You're speaking of a God that you don't believe in and understand and you're saying that God wouldn't have had the sense to do something?

Lol. You're speaking of a God that you don't believe in and understand and you're saying that God wouldn't have had the sense to do something?

LikeHaterade

Yes.

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Lol. You're speaking of a God that you don't believe in and understand and you're saying that God wouldn't have had the sense to do something?

Funky_Llama

Yes.

Well if you seek to understand, perhaps you should read some previous messages and you won't make silly comments like that.

The real evidence that prayer doesn't work:

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Lol. You're speaking of a God that you don't believe in and understand and you're saying that God wouldn't have had the sense to do something?

LikeHaterade

Yes.

Well if you seek to understand, perhaps you should read some previous messages and you won't make silly comments like that.

Oh? What was silly about it? The problem of evil, on which my comment was a variation, is a perfectly reasonable problem to bring up. Perhaps the reason you're dismissing is as 'silly' is that you don't have any better response.

The real evidence that prayer doesn't work:

TM_Darkside

How does that disprove prayer? :?

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Lol. You're speaking of a God that you don't believe in and understand and you're saying that God wouldn't have had the sense to do something?

Funky_Llama

Yes.

Well if you seek to understand, perhaps you should read some previous messages and you won't make silly comments like that.

Oh? What was silly about it? The problem of evil, on which my comment was a variation, is a perfectly reasonable problem to bring up. Perhaps the reason you're dismissing is as 'silly' is that you don't have any better response.

So you'd like me to respond to your statement as to why God put people on a planet that consists of volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc....?

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Lol. You're speaking of a God that you don't believe in and understand and you're saying that God wouldn't have had the sense to do something?

LikeHaterade

Yes.

Well if you seek to understand, perhaps you should read some previous messages and you won't make silly comments like that.

Oh? What was silly about it? The problem of evil, on which my comment was a variation, is a perfectly reasonable problem to bring up. Perhaps the reason you're dismissing is as 'silly' is that you don't have any better response.

So you'd like me to respond to your statement as to why God put people on a planet that consists of volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc....?

Yup. Or, more generally, why God allows natural (ie as opposed to human-caused) evil.

Well, pertaining to natural causes would be a matter of opinion on faith. God gave us a beautiful planet for us to live on with natural disasters. But the way I see it, if a person is going to build a city below sea level, near a volcano, on the gulf coast, or on an earthquake fault line, I don't think you should have any reason to be mad at God because you chose to live in that particular place. I do not think that God causes natural disasters, but to remind people that he is God. Not through a number of casualties of coarse, but the sheer phenomenon of a volcano erupting or the force behind a tornado. I believe that a world of sin also has something to do with natural disasters but we do live in a world with a 100% death rate so I think that sometimes, God allows things to happen for a reason. That is just my opinion however.LikeHaterade

:roll: A person can die from a natural disaster anywhere in the world. Lightning strikes. ;)

EDIT: Couldn't an omnipotent God choose a less fatal, more clear way of telling us of his existence? :?

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]Well, pertaining to natural causes would be a matter of opinion on faith. God gave us a beautiful planet for us to live on with natural disasters. But the way I see it, if a person is going to build a city below sea level, near a volcano, on the gulf coast, or on an earthquake fault line, I don't think you should have any reason to be mad at God because you chose to live in that particular place. I do not think that God causes natural disasters, but to remind people that he is God. Not through a number of casualties of coarse, but the sheer phenomenon of a volcano erupting or the force behind a tornado. I believe that a world of sin also has something to do with natural disasters but we do live in a world with a 100% death rate so I think that sometimes, God allows things to happen for a reason. That is just my opinion however.Funky_Llama

:roll: A person can die from a natural disaster anywhere in the world. Lightning strikes. ;)

EDIT: Couldn't an omnipotent God choose a less fatal, more clear way of telling us of his existence? :?

Haha. Good point with the lightning strikes. Don't fly kites in a thunderstorm.;)

God wants his people to walk by faith, not by sight.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]Well, pertaining to natural causes would be a matter of opinion on faith. God gave us a beautiful planet for us to live on with natural disasters. But the way I see it, if a person is going to build a city below sea level, near a volcano, on the gulf coast, or on an earthquake fault line, I don't think you should have any reason to be mad at God because you chose to live in that particular place. I do not think that God causes natural disasters, but to remind people that he is God. Not through a number of casualties of coarse, but the sheer phenomenon of a volcano erupting or the force behind a tornado. I believe that a world of sin also has something to do with natural disasters but we do live in a world with a 100% death rate so I think that sometimes, God allows things to happen for a reason. That is just my opinion however.LikeHaterade

:roll: A person can die from a natural disaster anywhere in the world. Lightning strikes. ;)

EDIT: Couldn't an omnipotent God choose a less fatal, more clear way of telling us of his existence? :?

Haha. Good point with the lightning strikes. Don't fly kites in a thunderstorm.;)

God wants his people to walk by faith, not by sight.

Even if you're confining it to God showing himself subtly, a method that doesn't involve killing people would be preferable.

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]Well, pertaining to natural causes would be a matter of opinion on faith. God gave us a beautiful planet for us to live on with natural disasters. But the way I see it, if a person is going to build a city below sea level, near a volcano, on the gulf coast, or on an earthquake fault line, I don't think you should have any reason to be mad at God because you chose to live in that particular place. I do not think that God causes natural disasters, but to remind people that he is God. Not through a number of casualties of coarse, but the sheer phenomenon of a volcano erupting or the force behind a tornado. I believe that a world of sin also has something to do with natural disasters but we do live in a world with a 100% death rate so I think that sometimes, God allows things to happen for a reason. That is just my opinion however.Funky_Llama

:roll: A person can die from a natural disaster anywhere in the world. Lightning strikes. ;)

EDIT: Couldn't an omnipotent God choose a less fatal, more clear way of telling us of his existence? :?

Haha. Good point with the lightning strikes. Don't fly kites in a thunderstorm.;)

God wants his people to walk by faith, not by sight.

Even if you're confining it to God showing himself subtly, a method that doesn't involve killing people would be preferable.

Well, like I said before, a lot of deaths that do occur in natural disasters is human choice on where you want to live. I'm not saying everytime though. Like the earthquake in China for instance. However, I do believe that God lets things happen for a reason. And that's just my opinion on natural disasters pertaining to my faith. Someone else could have a different opinion though.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]Well, pertaining to natural causes would be a matter of opinion on faith. God gave us a beautiful planet for us to live on with natural disasters. But the way I see it, if a person is going to build a city below sea level, near a volcano, on the gulf coast, or on an earthquake fault line, I don't think you should have any reason to be mad at God because you chose to live in that particular place. I do not think that God causes natural disasters, but to remind people that he is God. Not through a number of casualties of coarse, but the sheer phenomenon of a volcano erupting or the force behind a tornado. I believe that a world of sin also has something to do with natural disasters but we do live in a world with a 100% death rate so I think that sometimes, God allows things to happen for a reason. That is just my opinion however.LikeHaterade

:roll: A person can die from a natural disaster anywhere in the world. Lightning strikes. ;)

EDIT: Couldn't an omnipotent God choose a less fatal, more clear way of telling us of his existence? :?

Haha. Good point with the lightning strikes. Don't fly kites in a thunderstorm.;)

God wants his people to walk by faith, not by sight.

Even if you're confining it to God showing himself subtly, a method that doesn't involve killing people would be preferable.

Well, like I said before, a lot of deaths that do occur in natural disasters is human choice on where you want to live. I'm not saying everytime though. Like the earthquake in China for instance. However, I do believe that God lets things happen for a reason. And that's just my opinion on natural disasters pertaining to my faith. Someone else could have a different opinion though.

And what might that reason be? *waits for something to the effect of 'only God knows' and/or 'who are you to question God?'

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]Well, pertaining to natural causes would be a matter of opinion on faith. God gave us a beautiful planet for us to live on with natural disasters. But the way I see it, if a person is going to build a city below sea level, near a volcano, on the gulf coast, or on an earthquake fault line, I don't think you should have any reason to be mad at God because you chose to live in that particular place. I do not think that God causes natural disasters, but to remind people that he is God. Not through a number of casualties of coarse, but the sheer phenomenon of a volcano erupting or the force behind a tornado. I believe that a world of sin also has something to do with natural disasters but we do live in a world with a 100% death rate so I think that sometimes, God allows things to happen for a reason. That is just my opinion however.Funky_Llama

:roll: A person can die from a natural disaster anywhere in the world. Lightning strikes. ;)

EDIT: Couldn't an omnipotent God choose a less fatal, more clear way of telling us of his existence? :?

Haha. Good point with the lightning strikes. Don't fly kites in a thunderstorm.;)

God wants his people to walk by faith, not by sight.

Even if you're confining it to God showing himself subtly, a method that doesn't involve killing people would be preferable.

Well, like I said before, a lot of deaths that do occur in natural disasters is human choice on where you want to live. I'm not saying everytime though. Like the earthquake in China for instance. However, I do believe that God lets things happen for a reason. And that's just my opinion on natural disasters pertaining to my faith. Someone else could have a different opinion though.

And what might that reason be? *waits for something to the effect of 'only God knows' and/or 'who are you to question God?'

Lol. Don't know. But I have faith in God. God has helped me so much in my life and the least I can do is be faithful. I do believe that God can work in mysterious ways.

said before, a lot of deaths that do occur in natural disasters is human choice on where you want to live. I'm not saying everytime though. Like the earthquake in China for instance. However, I do believe that God lets things happen for a reason. And that's just my opinion on natural disasters pertaining to my faith. Someone else could have a different opinion though. LikeHaterade

Until recently, most people in the world had know idea they were sitting on a fault line. Even then, it's not so easy to just get up and move somewhere else. People have ties to where they live, whether it is work or family or whatever.

And really, why does there have to be a supernatural reason for things to happen? Can't we just say that the tectonic plates are moving and it's purely natural?

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]said before, a lot of deaths that do occur in natural disasters is human choice on where you want to live. I'm not saying everytime though. Like the earthquake in China for instance. However, I do believe that God lets things happen for a reason. And that's just my opinion on natural disasters pertaining to my faith. Someone else could have a different opinion though. reiv

Until recently, most people in the world had know idea they were sitting on a fault line. Even then, it's not so easy to just get up and move somewhere else. People have ties to where they live, whether it is work or family or whatever.

And really, why does there have to be a supernatural reason for things to happen? Can't we just say that the tectonic plates are moving and it's purely natural?

Moving tectonic plates are natural, as ar tornadoes. I just said that I believed they sometimes reminded people of the power of God. It's definately not easy for a lot of those that aren't prepared to do so. If you live in a certain disaster zone, you should always have a set plan and precautions.

Lol. Don't know. But I have faith in God. God has helped me so much in my life and the least I can do is be faithful. I do believe that God can work in mysterious ways.

LikeHaterade

How do you know it's God helping you?

God wants his people to walk by faith, not by sight.

LikeHaterade

I've always found this bewildering. There's no reason at all that you can not truly love someone or something that you know exists. I know my parents exist. Would I love them more if I was simply told I have parents, but never saw them? Of course not. This is strange enough to begin with, but when you take into account that our ETERNAL fate is apparently at stake here, and that God, as a 'parent' of sorts, doesn't want us to be condemned to an eternity of suffering, why on Earth would He fail to provide compelling evidence of His existence? Why would He fail to recognize that many people are going to be condemned to eternal suffering because they can't commit to the idea of one particular deity when there are countless other equally unprovable deities vying for their lifelong attention and adoration? If He is truly a good God, then He has nothing to fear in showing us that He does in fact exist.

Just as some kids rebel against their parents (who they know exist), some people would still rebel against God. They would still be free to choose whether or not they would follow Him, and they would still be free to choose whether or not they loved Him if they knew He existed.

This is the chief reason that I believe Christianity to be untrue. It is an enormously illogical position, and as a result of it, many good people will be condemned to eternal suffering merely because they can not accept the existence of the supernatural without seeing proof of its existence - which incidentally is a completely logical position to take. If we failed to take this position, we'd likely still believe that disease and mental illness are caused by evil spirits. And we'd still be burning people for witchcraft.

When you get right down to it, the Christian God is no different than the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, or any other fairy tale... except that it's a little easier to disprove the existence of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, because the people who play these roles are obviously responsible for the 'miracles' that delight a child's mind and convince him or her of the existence of such beings. When no one can provide evidence of a deity's existence beyond the anecdotal, it is unlikely that others will believe in it.

So why have religions like Christianity and Islam survived? Simple. They present a message people want to hear. People are afraid of death. They want to believe there's more to existence than this brief flash on Earth. They want to believe that someone is looking out for them. They want to believe they'll see dead loved ones again. It's a great comfort. But if this unprovable God had been portrayed differently - if He had been portrayed instead as a tyrant who delights in our suffering, or if the religion made the claim that when we die, we will truly be dead and cease to exist, do you think the religion would survive? Simply put, no. Satan isn't the same thing, because Satan is connected to a religion of hope. If there is no hope presented by an unprovable religion, no one has any reason to follow it. So let's just say it straight - it's awfully easy to convince people something is true (even if it's not true) when that something is what they want to hear...

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Lol. Don't know. But I have faith in God. God has helped me so much in my life and the least I can do is be faithful. I do believe that God can work in mysterious ways.

Funky_Llama

How do you know it's God helping you?

Because there's a feeling of love and content that I have felt in the past that was I guess you could call supernatural. I can feel his presence when I pray and through the good and bad.

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

God wants his people to walk by faith, not by sight.

pianist

I've always found this bewildering. There's no reason at all that you can not truly love someone or something that you know exists. I know my parents exist. Would I love them more if I was simply told I have parents, but never saw them? Of course not. This is strange enough to begin with, but when you take into account that our ETERNAL fate is apparently at stake here, and that God, as a 'parent' of sorts doesn't want us to be condemned to an eternity of suffering, why on Earth would He fail to provide compelling evidence of His existence? Why would He fail to recognize that many people are going to be condemned to eternal suffering because they can't commit to the idea of one particular deity when there are countless other equally unprovable deities vying for their lifelong attention and adoration? If He is truly a good God, then He has nothing to fear in showing us that He does in fact exist.

Just as some kids rebel against their parents (who they know exist), some people would still rebel against God. They would still be free to choose whether or not they would follow Him, and they would still be free to choose whether or not they loved Him if they knew He existed.

This is the chief reason that I believe Christianity to be untrue. It is an enormously illogical position, and as a result of it, many good people will be condemned to eternal suffering merely because they can not accept the existence of the supernatural without seeing proof of its existence - which incidentally is a completely logical position to take. If we failed to take this position, we'd likely still believe that disease and mental illness are caused by evil spirits. And we'd still be burning people for witchcraft.

When you get right down to it, the Christian God is no different than the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, or any other fairy tale... except that it's a little easier to disprove the existence of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, because the people who play these roles are obviously responsible for the 'miracles' that delight a child's mind and convince him or her of the existence of such beings. When no one can provide evidence of a deity's existence beyond anecdotal evidence, it is unlikely that others will believe in it.

So why have religions like Christianity and Islam survived? Simple. They present a message people want to hear. People are afraid of death. They want to believe there's more to existence than this brief flash on Earth. They want to believe that someone is looking out for them. They want to believe they'll see dead loved ones again. It's a great comfort. But if this unprovable God had been portrayed differently - if He had been portrayed instead as a tyrant who delights in our suffering, or if the religion made the claim that when we die, we will truly be dead and cease to exist, do you think the religion would survive? Simply put, no. Satan isn't the same thing, because Satan is connected to a religion of hope. If there is no hope presented by an unprovable religion, no one has any reason to follow it. But let's just say it straight - it's awfully easy to convince people something is true (even if it's not true) when that something is what they want to hear...

I couldn't agree more. Heh... pianist in a religious debate thread; I never thought I'd see the day. :P

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]Well, pertaining to natural causes would be a matter of opinion on faith. God gave us a beautiful planet for us to live on with natural disasters. But the way I see it, if a person is going to build a city below sea level, near a volcano, on the gulf coast, or on an earthquake fault line, I don't think you should have any reason to be mad at God because you chose to live in that particular place. I do not think that God causes natural disasters, but to remind people that he is God. Not through a number of casualties of coarse, but the sheer phenomenon of a volcano erupting or the force behind a tornado. I believe that a world of sin also has something to do with natural disasters but we do live in a world with a 100% death rate so I think that sometimes, God allows things to happen for a reason. That is just my opinion however.Funky_Llama

:roll: A person can die from a natural disaster anywhere in the world. Lightning strikes. ;)

EDIT: Couldn't an omnipotent God choose a less fatal, more clear way of telling us of his existence? :?

Haha. Good point with the lightning strikes. Don't fly kites in a thunderstorm.;)

God wants his people to walk by faith, not by sight.

Even if you're confining it to God showing himself subtly, a method that doesn't involve killing people would be preferable.

Well, like I said before, a lot of deaths that do occur in natural disasters is human choice on where you want to live. I'm not saying everytime though. Like the earthquake in China for instance. However, I do believe that God lets things happen for a reason. And that's just my opinion on natural disasters pertaining to my faith. Someone else could have a different opinion though.

And what might that reason be? *waits for something to the effect of 'only God knows' and/or 'who are you to question God?'

"Only God knows." :P

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Lol. Don't know. But I have faith in God. God has helped me so much in my life and the least I can do is be faithful. I do believe that God can work in mysterious ways.

LikeHaterade

How do you know it's God helping you?

Because there's a feeling of love and content that I have felt in the past that was I guess you could call supernatural. I can feel his presence when I pray and through the good and bad.

So the Muslims who feel love and content towards God... how to you know they're not right? What is your basis for dismissing their feelings of love and content? Besides which, feelings of love and content do not constitute proof of the efficacy of prayer.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

And what might that reason be? *waits for something to the effect of 'only God knows' and/or 'who are you to question God?'

FallofAthens

"Only God knows." :P

:|

:x

:evil:

[QUOTE="FallofAthens"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

And what might that reason be? *waits for something to the effect of 'only God knows' and/or 'who are you to question God?'

Funky_Llama

"Only God knows." :P

:|

:x

:evil:

Hey, you were waiting for it. Thought I'd go ahead and get it out of the way. :D

Really though, I don't have an answer to your statment, truthfully I'm finding the answers myself.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Lol. Don't know. But I have faith in God. God has helped me so much in my life and the least I can do is be faithful. I do believe that God can work in mysterious ways.

LikeHaterade

How do you know it's God helping you?

Because there's a feeling of love and content that I have felt in the past that was I guess you could call supernatural. I can feel his presence when I pray and through the good and bad.

Or maybe your brain is giving you a small shot of dopamine because you feel you are doing something good.

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

God wants his people to walk by faith, not by sight.

pianist

I've always found this bewildering. There's no reason at all that you can not truly love someone or something that you know exists. I know my parents exist. Would I love them more if I was simply told I have parents, but never saw them? Of course not. This is strange enough to begin with, but when you take into account that our ETERNAL fate is apparently at stake here, and that God, as a 'parent' of sorts doesn't want us to be condemned to an eternity of suffering, why on Earth would He fail to provide compelling evidence of His existence? Why would He fail to recognize that many people are going to be condemned to eternal suffering because they can't commit to the idea of one particular deity when there are countless other equally unprovable deities vying for their lifelong attention and adoration? If He is truly a good God, then He has nothing to fear in showing us that He does in fact exist.

Just as some kids rebel against their parents (who they know exist), some people would still rebel against God. They would still be free to choose whether or not they would follow Him, and they would still be free to choose whether or not they loved Him if they knew He existed.

This is the chief reason that I believe Christianity to be untrue. It is an enormously illogical position, and as a result of it, many good people will be condemned to eternal suffering merely because they can not accept the existence of the supernatural without seeing proof of its existence - which incidentally is a completely logical position to take. If we failed to take this position, we'd likely still believe that disease and mental illness are caused by evil spirits. And we'd still be burning people for witchcraft.

When you get right down to it, the Christian God is no different than the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, or any other fairy tale... except that it's a little easier to disprove the existence of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, because the people who play these roles are obviously responsible for the 'miracles' that delight a child's mind and convince him or her of the existence of such beings. When no one can provide evidence of a deity's existence beyond anecdotal evidence, it is unlikely that others will believe in it.

So why have religions like Christianity and Islam survived? Simple. They present a message people want to hear. People are afraid of death. They want to believe there's more to existence than this brief flash on Earth. They want to believe that someone is looking out for them. They want to believe they'll see dead loved ones again. It's a great comfort. But if this unprovable God had been portrayed differently - if He had been portrayed instead as a tyrant who delights in our suffering, or if the religion made the claim that when we die, we will truly be dead and cease to exist, do you think the religion would survive? Simply put, no. Satan isn't the same thing, because Satan is connected to a religion of hope. If there is no hope presented by an unprovable religion, no one has any reason to follow it. So let's just say it straight - it's awfully easy to convince people something is true (even if it's not true) when that something is what they want to hear...

I do see where you're coming from, however I do not believe in converting others by coersive means. I believe that God loves his people enough to give them the choice of what they want to believe in. You can make assumptions as to why God may not exist with theories, ideologies or conjectures, but you cannot disprove God's existence. It truely is a matter of faith, especially with all of the skeptisism nowadays, but I would want to help someone truely believe in God because of his love and not because you're going to hell if you don't. When you walk by faith and not by sight simply because of my emotional experience with God and some of the things that I have been through, praying has helped me. Before Jesus performed miracles, he would try and teach others about God so that they may walk by faith. There are a lot of miracles today that are tied to God, that is if you believe they are. I believe that they are.

They want to believe there's more to existence than this brief flash on Earth. pianist

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Macbeth

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Lol. Don't know. But I have faith in God. God has helped me so much in my life and the least I can do is be faithful. I do believe that God can work in mysterious ways.

Funky_Llama

How do you know it's God helping you?

Because there's a feeling of love and content that I have felt in the past that was I guess you could call supernatural. I can feel his presence when I pray and through the good and bad.

So the Muslims who feel love and content towards God... how to you know they're not right? What is your basis for dismissing their feelings of love and content? Besides which, feelings of love and content do not constitute proof of the efficacy of prayer.

Well I don't question anyone's beliefs out of respect for that particular person, but of coarse I do not believe that their God exists. I wouldn't tell someone that because it would be disrespectful, but would be happy to tell that person about my God if they asked me. Someone that truely believes in prayer and the Lord, I believe that their prayers are answered. There are cases whenever they aren't answered, but I believe that there is a higher purpose. There have been a lot of prayers that have been answered including my own. I'm not trying to convince you to believe in prayer, I'm just telling you that love and content are feelings that I experience whenever I pray sometimes.

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Lol. Don't know. But I have faith in God. God has helped me so much in my life and the least I can do is be faithful. I do believe that God can work in mysterious ways.

reiv

How do you know it's God helping you?

Because there's a feeling of love and content that I have felt in the past that was I guess you could call supernatural. I can feel his presence when I pray and through the good and bad.

Or maybe your brain is giving you a small shot of dopamine because you feel you are doing something good.

Lol maybe

I do see where you're coming from, however I do not believe in converting others by coersive means. I believe that God loves his people enough to give them the choice of what they want to believe in. You can make assumptions as to why God may not exist with theories, ideologies or conjectures, but you cannot disprove God's existence. It truely is a matter of faith, especially with all of the skeptisism nowadays, but I would want to help someone truely believe in God because of his love and not because you're going to hell if you don't. When you walk by faith and not by sight simply because of my emotional experience with God and some of the things that I have been through, praying has helped me. Before Jesus performed miracles, he would try and teach others about God so that they may walk by faith. There are a lot of miracles today that are tied to God, that is if you believe they are. I believe that they are.

LikeHaterade

Good... because frankly, there shouldn't be any need to convert people by any means, coercive or otherwise. No converting would need to take place if people had what they needed to make their own choice. You would undoubtedly say they do, but I can assure you they do not, because if there WAS conclusive proof of God's existence, I would be a Christian... albeit one who does not understand or accept certain positions taken by my God.

We don't need inexplicable miracles, because inexplicable miracles may well be caused by natural processes that we do not yet understand. What we NEED is something that CAN be explained, and for which no other explanation exists aside from the existence of God. A tangible personal appearance would do the trick. Again, this would not in any way affect peoples' freedom of choice. They could still refuse to submit to God, as Satan did. But people could then make an informed choice based on real evidence. Until that happens, I can not be a Christian, nor can many people I know and love. We're all going to burn for eternity as a result, assuming Christianity is true.