The real evidence that prayer does not work.

[QUOTE="Vax45"]

The problem isn't so much accepting that God did what he did, it's that there's unanswered questions with the faith. For example:

If God is all-knowing and pre-ordained everything, then how do we have free will?

How could God have come out of nothing?

If God is perfectly good and cannot participate in evil, then how does evil exist?LJS9502_basic

Knowing what will happen doesn't mean one causes it to happen. Think of a psychic...they can (assuming they exist) get a read on something but they can't cause it.

But God isn't psychic, he's GOD. He created everything in his image. The psychic only sees it happen.

Always was...wasn't created. You have to ignore natural law as they didn't exist at the time.

Fair enough.

Evil exists because people aren't perfectly good.

If humans aren't perfectly good, then the other side is evil, no? Creating evil counts as participating in it.

There are children in Africa that are getting food, who said they weren't?

Of course there are a lot that are not getting enough food/nutrition but thats for us to do something about. If we pray for these children to have food God isn't going to just give them all food in 1 day. Why not? In my opinion if this happens then this will suddenly make every atheist/non believer believe in God ONLY because he did something amazing in one day.

Thats like saying I will only believe in air as long as I see it through my eyes clearly as if it were smoke. The whole point of Christianity is faith in something that seems unbelievable. Once you pass that phase then you will know God.

Like it or not you have never actually tried to believe only because you thought it was impossible for there to be a God....why then should God seek you, a person who has no faith or has not tried to whatsoever?

Lets face it we all have different views on the world....but one of the strongest common view is a one omnitient higher being.

But God isn't psychic, he's GOD. He created everything in his image. The psychic only sees it happen.

If humans aren't perfectly good, then the other side is evil, no? Creating evil counts as participating in it.Vax45

Good can't exist without evil. But evil doesn't have to be created. Again...some good parents have some horrible children.

[QUOTE="Vax45"]

But God isn't psychic, he's GOD. He created everything in his image. The psychic only sees it happen.

If humans aren't perfectly good, then the other side is evil, no? Creating evil counts as participating in it.LJS9502_basic

Are you a parent? You created the child...but you don't control everything you child does/thinks. God created life....after that we are free to make our own choices.

God doesn't have control of us, so then he isn't all-powerful.

Good can't exist without evil. But evil doesn't have to be created. Again...some good parents have some horrible children.

So if evil doesn't have to be created, then has it always existed? Then if evil came with good, then does that means that something has came into existence without Gods will? If something came into existence without God's will, that is against it isn't it?

God doesn't have control of us, so then he isn't all-powerful.

So if evil doesn't have to be created, then has it always existed? Then if evil came with good, then does that means that something has came into existence without Gods will? If something came into existence without God's will, that is against it isn't it?

Vax45

Free will causes the two extremes. God does not hamper the free will and thus you have both positive and negative.

Since starving children first came to our attention, billions of prayers have been said. Yes, billions. Easily. Yet, not even ONE was answered. I wonder why...

Deity_Slapper

Oh wait, where is it?

Not having control is not the same as not being able to have control.

Right, so he isn't all-powerful.

Free will causes the two extremes. God does not hamper the free will and thus you have both positive and negative.

So then if we have free will, that means God cannot pre-ordain everything then.

LJS9502_basic

God gave most of us a great opportunity in a first world country. It's our responsibility to help. In fact, instead of wasting your time shooting down and mocking other's beliefs in this thread, you could have been out donating money and supplies to those children.

Right, so he isn't all-powerful.

So then if we have free will, that means God cannot pre-ordain everything then.

Vax45

Right. God does not pre ordain. Where did you get that idea....I'm just curious.

I love your evidence to support this claim.

Oh wait, where is it?

A_Tarkovsky

Deity_Slapper doesn't argue evidence. Didn't you get the memo?

Uh....again because He chooses not to control us doesn't mean He cannot. He is all powerful.

He's giving up his power to control us, so he isn't all-powerful. You said before he isn't able to control us.

Right. God does not pre ordain. Where did you get that idea....I'm just curious.

He has a plan for us, right?

LJS9502_basic

He's giving up his power to control us, so he isn't all-powerful. You said before he isn't able to control us.

He has a plan for us, right?

Vax45

That is not giving up power...it means you don't use it. Not that you can't.

Plan is for us to seek Him and be with Him. That is up to us of course...

Doesn't it get old attacking me? You know you're successful when you get this much attention. Seriously...several pages about me. Doesn't the TC have some "real evidence" to provide?

LJS9502_basic

Does the irony ever end with you?

Then I must be successful, since people go on for pages about me, including you, and your alt d51man, went back and forth about me for a while. I've seen you go on back and forth with other users about me too, in other threads.

But I'll play. I certainly haven't lost this one. LJS9502_basic

There it is again. :lol:

I haven't even debated the TC and he spends pages bashing me. Guess it must irk him that he can't better me.:lol:

LJS9502_basic

But I guess when you and some other user go back and forth about me for a while, it must be because you're irked that you can't better me. Ok then. :)

[QUOTE="superheromonkey"]

So I gaze over the twenty pages of this thread and I wonder to myself...how many people have changed their minds on anything thanks to this thread. Anybody?

LJS9502_basic

Right, you don't attack beliefs, you just try to make people feel stupid for having certain ones. Essentially the same thing. You might as well blatantly attack. The only reason you don't is so that you don't get banned, so you can stick around and get your post count up to 70,000 posts which mostly consist of "pointing out the flaws in others". I ask you, doesn't it ever get old, patting yourself on the back all the time? :roll:

All you ever do here is try and "correct" people, like you're some sort of savior.

That is not giving up power...it means you don't use it. Not that you can't.

So if we truely have free-will, then does that destroy our purpose? We are here for a reason, but if God allowed us free-will, does that destroy that reason?

Plan is for us to seek Him and be with Him. That is up to us of course...

Okay, let's take a step back. You said you said he cannot pre-ordain. Does that mean he isn't all-powerful? If he is, he'd know what will happen, right?

LJS9502_basic

So if we truely have free-will, then does that destroy our purpose? We are here for a reason, but if God allowed us free-will, does that destroy that reason?

Okay, let's take a step back. You said you said he cannot pre-ordain. Does that mean he isn't all-powerful? If he is, he'd know what will happen, right?

Vax45

Pre ordaining is not the same as knowing. I can know you'll pick apples over cherries if I gave you a choice...but I haven't made you pick the apples.

I cannot believe this topic is still here. You OTers should be ashamed of yourselves for responding to these idiotic threads. You don't even know enough about the subject to make any valid argument and no one is going to change their opinion anyway. What baffles me the most is why so many of you care enough about this subject to discuss it on a video game forum... Solid_Snake325

Yet you responded... :roll:

And you give off just as much hatred towards me, as you say I do to christians. Hypocracy to the fullest. You're exactly the type of person I was talking about making an example out of. The ones who inadvertently bite, and dig themselves a hole by blindly doing the very thing they're taking a stand against.

Your credibility won't gain much power if you constantly present yourself to be participating in the very activities you claim to detest. Wake up. :roll:

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

Since starving children first came to our attention, billions of prayers have been said. Yes, billions. Easily. Yet, not even ONE was answered. I wonder why...

A_Tarkovsky

Oh wait, where is it?

The evidence is in Ethiopia. You could easily go there if you wanted to, and see the evidence. :roll:

I highly doubt people prayed for just a few kids to get food, they prayed for ALL of them to be fed. The fact that there are thousands of hungry children still there, suffering every day, is your proof. Try harder next time, son.

[QUOTE="A_Tarkovsky"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

Since starving children first came to our attention, billions of prayers have been said. Yes, billions. Easily. Yet, not even ONE was answered. I wonder why...

Deity_Slapper

Oh wait, where is it?

The evidence is in Ethiopia. You could easily go there if you wanted to, and see the evidence. :roll:

I highly doubt people prayed for just a few kids to get food, they prayed for ALL of them to be fed. The fact that there are thousands of hungry children still there, suffering every day, is your proof. Try harder next time, son.

how is that evidence? it doesnt prove anything. i dont know why God hasnt changed that area and fixed the problems there even though i have prayed for it. i dont know his reasons but that doesnt mean that other prayers havent been answered. people also pray to win the lottery but for obvious reasons those prayers arent granted many times. you never have any hard evidence to back up your outrageous claims

No.....God created life. What we do with that life is up to us...that is route God choose.

Pre ordaining is not the same as knowing. I can know you'll pick apples over cherries if I gave you a choice...but I haven't made you pick the apples.

LJS9502_basic

But apples and cherries are both good. No matter which you choose, you'll end up with a smile on your face (or at least you should).

Bad comparison, because the only alternative to the christian god, is his wonderful masterpiece of a flame pit that awaits anyone who chooses a different path. Not fair at all. It's not like heaven is the apples, and hell is the cherries.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

The evidence is in Ethiopia. You could easily go there if you wanted to, and see the evidence. :roll:

I highly doubt people prayed for just a few kids to get food, they prayed for ALL of them to be fed. The fact that there are thousands of hungry children still there, suffering every day, is your proof. Try harder next time, son.

metaldude05

how is that evidence? it doesnt prove anything. i dont know why God hasnt changed that area and fixed the problems there even though i have prayed for it. i dont know his reasons but that doesnt mean that other prayers havent been answered. people also pray to win the lottery but for obvious reasons those prayers arent granted many times. you never have any hard evidence to back up your outrageous claims

What?!?! :lol:

How is that evidence? Are you serious? Live, in front of your face, hungry children still wandering around...there's your proof that the prayers have not been answered. The prayers are plentiful and daily, yet decades have passed since they've begun....the kids are still starving.

No.....God created life. What we do with that life is up to us...that is route God choose.

That didn't really answer my question.

God created life, then surely there must be a purpose. If he created us with a purpose, then it's up to use to fulfill that purpose. How can we fulfill it if we have free will?

Pre ordaining is not the same as knowing. I can know you'll pick apples over cherries if I gave you a choice...but I haven't made you pick the apples.

How did you know that I would pick the apple? We're created in his own image, so then he knows I'll pick apples. If he knows I'll pick apples because he created me that way, then isn't that taking away my free will?

LJS9502_basic

Where is the evidence? All I see is opinion and insults here.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]No.....God created life. What we do with that life is up to us...that is route God choose.

Pre ordaining is not the same as knowing. I can know you'll pick apples over cherries if I gave you a choice...but I haven't made you pick the apples.

Deity_Slapper

But apples and cherries are both good. No matter which you choose, you'll end up with a smile on your face (or at least you should).

Bad comparison, because the only alternative to the christian god, is his wonderful masterpiece of a flame pit that awaits anyone who chooses a different path. Not fair at all. It's not like heaven is the apples, and hell is the cherries.

i dont think that was his point. i think he was just showing the idea of God be all knowing and giving free will. your right its more complicated than apples and cherries but i thought it was simple but well put.

If I pray for a circle to become a square, will God grant me my "wish"?Genetic_Code

Pfft obviously. God falls for purposefully manipulative requests! :roll:

Deity_Slapper doesn't argue evidence. Didn't you get the memo?

Genetic_Code

Genetic_Code is a certified expert on Deity_Slapper? Now how come I didn't get THAT memo? :?

[QUOTE="metaldude05"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

The evidence is in Ethiopia. You could easily go there if you wanted to, and see the evidence. :roll:

I highly doubt people prayed for just a few kids to get food, they prayed for ALL of them to be fed. The fact that there are thousands of hungry children still there, suffering every day, is your proof. Try harder next time, son.

Deity_Slapper

how is that evidence? it doesnt prove anything. i dont know why God hasnt changed that area and fixed the problems there even though i have prayed for it. i dont know his reasons but that doesnt mean that other prayers havent been answered. people also pray to win the lottery but for obvious reasons those prayers arent granted many times. you never have any hard evidence to back up your outrageous claims

What?!?! :lol:

How is that evidence? Are you serious? Live, in front of your face, hungry children still wandering around...there's your proof that the prayers have not been answered. The prayers are plentiful and daily, yet decades have passed since they've begun....the kids are still starving.

its proof that some prayers dont get answered. but its not proof that all prayers dont get answered and in no way is proof of the subject that prayer doesnt work. and maybe those prayers were answered and God is just saying be patient or not yet

If I pray for a circle to become a square, will God grant me my "wish"?Genetic_Code

What a weak arguement.

Since you're just talking about shapes...that's it, just shapes, and not any physical forms that have taken those shapes, then you wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own. Draw a circle. Change your mind. Erase it. Draw a square. Yay.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]If I pray for a circle to become a square, will God grant me my "wish"?Deity_Slapper

What a weak arguement.

Since you're just talking about shapes...that's it, just shapes, and not any physical forms that have taken those shapes, then you wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own. Draw a circle. Change your mind. Erase it. Draw a square. Yay.

Funny, because it's the same argument you've made this entire damn thread.

That didn't really answer my question.

God created life, then surely there must be a purpose. If he created us with a purpose, then it's up to use to fulfill that purpose. How can we fulfill it if we have free will?

How did you know that I would pick the apple? We're created in his own image, so then he knows I'll pick apples. If he knows I'll pick apples because he created me that way, then isn't that taking away my free will?

Vax45

If I knew you well enough to offer you the choice of food...I'd know which you prefer. For instance...I like apples but I can't stand cherries. Anytime you offered that choice to me...you'd be sure which I'd pick. My choice is not due to being "wired" a certain way. Merely taste. Which can be applied in life. I'm sure you know your family/friends well enough to predict more often than not how they'll react to things. Did you make them act that way? Of course not.

its proof that some prayers dont get answered. but its not proof that all prayers dont get answered and in no way is proof of the subject that prayer doesnt work. and maybe those prayers were answered and God is just saying be patient or not yet

metaldude05

Ok fair enough. But why, tell me please why, would god say "not yet", while thousands of INNOCENT CHILDREN are suffering in the meantime? Sure, us privileged people over here with all our food and technology can wait for a prayer to be answered, but WHY DO THE CHILDREN HAVE TO WAIT?!?!? :x

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]If I pray for a circle to become a square, will God grant me my "wish"?Genetic_Code

What a weak arguement.

Since you're just talking about shapes...that's it, just shapes, and not any physical forms that have taken those shapes, then you wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own. Draw a circle. Change your mind. Erase it. Draw a square. Yay.

Funny, because it's the same argument you've made this entire damn thread.

?

:?

If you mean purpose like God decides what you do etc...then no. That is given to you to decide.

So then God created us for no reason at all?

If I knew you well enough to offer you the choice of food...I'd know which you prefer. For instance...I like apples but I can't stand cherries. Anytime you offered that choice to me...you'd be sure which I'd pick. My choice is not due to being "wired" a certain way. Merely taste. Which can be applied in life. I'm sure you know your family/friends well enough to predict more often than not how they'll react to things. Did you make them act that way? Of course not.

So then we're not created in Gods image?

LJS9502_basic

If you mean purpose like God decides what you do etc...then no. That is given to you to decide. LJS9502_basic

An absolute statement. Something you say you never do. :roll:

Oh let me guess...it's based on "the teaching", as you like to call it.

But all that proves is that you got your beliefs from a teaching, and not from your own exploration. Therefore, you don't think for yourself, as you claim to. Every word you speak in relation to christian beliefs is directly leeched from the teaching you were given. It's nothing more than a simplistic regurgitation.

[QUOTE="metaldude05"]

its proof that some prayers dont get answered. but its not proof that all prayers dont get answered and in no way is proof of the subject that prayer doesnt work. and maybe those prayers were answered and God is just saying be patient or not yet

Deity_Slapper

Ok fair enough. But why, tell me please why, would god say "not yet", while thousands of INNOCENT CHILDREN are suffering in the meantime? Sure, us privileged people over here with all our food and technology can wait for a prayer to be answered, but WHY DO THE CHILDREN HAVE TO WAIT?!?!? :x

I dont know. i struggle with that very question. since i am not God i cannot answer that. ive heard explanations from theologans but none make a whole lot of sense to me. i dont understand alot of the things that God does in my own life. and compared to the people of Africa i live very easy. i cant explain alot and dont try to because im not God.

Maybe the title of your thread should have why does God not help Africa while people pray about it everyday or something. that would have been a good debatable topic and not devulged into thirty something odd pages of insults and people bashing each other (not picking sides im sure both christians and atheists are guilty)

So then God created us for no reason at all?

So then we're not created in Gods image?

Vax45

Companionship.

I'm not sure what that point is of that comment in regard to this conversation.

[spoiler] [QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]If I pray for a circle to become a square, will God grant me my "wish"?Deity_Slapper

What a weak arguement.

Since you're just talking about shapes...that's it, just shapes, and not any physical forms that have taken those shapes, then you wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own. Draw a circle. Change your mind. Erase it. Draw a square. Yay.

Funny, because it's the same argument you've made this entire damn thread.

?

:?

[/spoiler]

What about my post do you not understand?

I dont know. i struggle with that very question. since i am not God i cannot answer that. metaldude05

Then why speak for him...EVER?

ive heard explanations from theologans but none make a whole lot of sense to me. metaldude05

Then what makes you think theology has any substance?

i dont understand alot of the things that God does in my own life. metaldude05

Then what makes you think there's even a god there to begin with, if all you've felt in reference to the idea of god, is confusion?

that would have been a good debatable topic and not devulged into thirty something odd pages of insults and people bashing each other (not picking sides im sure both christians and atheists are guilty)

metaldude05

Some pages in this thread actually did have some good debating going on...the debates usually get broken up when whiny little crybabies come in here and say, "Wahhhh! who do you think you are! Waaaa!!! If you don't like god then blah blah blah!" They proceed to put their feet in their mouth, by doing what they complain about, and then leave. It's ridiculous. People say this place would be better without religion threads, or atheists, or militant whatever, but in actuality, the crybabies cause the biggest distraction of all.

What about my post do you not understand?

Genetic_Code

Ummm...I've yet to talk about squares and circles. I mean, yeah, some people in this thread are squares, and their heads are most likely circular in shape, but I never brought that up.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][spoiler] [QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]If I pray for a circle to become a square, will God grant me my "wish"?Deity_Slapper

What a weak arguement.

Since you're just talking about shapes...that's it, just shapes, and not any physical forms that have taken those shapes, then you wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own. Draw a circle. Change your mind. Erase it. Draw a square. Yay.

Funny, because it's the same argument you've made this entire damn thread.

?

:?

[/spoiler]

What about my post do you not understand?

Ummm...I've yet to talk about squares and circles. I mean, yeah, some people in this thread are squares, and their heads are most likely circular in shape, but I never brought that up.

I think it's a great parallel actually.

In fact, I'll use your words to illustrate my point.

You wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own.Deity_Slapper

Isn't that what God wants Christians to do?

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][spoiler] [QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]If I pray for a circle to become a square, will God grant me my "wish"?Genetic_Code

What a weak arguement.

Since you're just talking about shapes...that's it, just shapes, and not any physical forms that have taken those shapes, then you wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own. Draw a circle. Change your mind. Erase it. Draw a square. Yay.

Funny, because it's the same argument you've made this entire damn thread.

?

:?

[/spoiler]

What about my post do you not understand?

Ummm...I've yet to talk about squares and circles. I mean, yeah, some people in this thread are squares, and their heads are most likely circular in shape, but I never brought that up.

I think it's a great parallel actually.

In fact, I'll use your words to illustrate my point.

You wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own.Deity_Slapper

Isn't that what God wants Christians to do?

Who would know what their god wants? They don't even know ,remember?

And I'm talking about how you wouldn't need to pray for a change from god that you could do on your own so easily. But help feeding thousands of children? Yeah, you'll need to ask for assistance. I thought that's what prayer was for...according to christianity.

[QUOTE="metaldude05"]

I dont know. i struggle with that very question. since i am not God i cannot answer that. Deity_Slapper

Then why speak for him...EVER?

ive heard explanations from theologans but none make a whole lot of sense to me. metaldude05

Then what makes you think theology has any substance?

i dont understand alot of the things that God does in my own life. metaldude05

Then what makes you think there's even a god there to begin with, if all you've felt in reference to the idea of god, is confusion?

that would have been a good debatable topic and not devulged into thirty something odd pages of insults and people bashing each other (not picking sides im sure both christians and atheists are guilty)

metaldude05

Some pages in this thread actually did have some good debating going on...the debates usually get broken up when whiny little crybabies come in here and say, "Wahhhh! who do you think you are! Waaaa!!! If you don't like god then blah blah blah!" They proceed to put their feet in their mouth, by doing what they complain about, and then leave. It's ridiculous. People say this place would be better without religion threads, or atheists, or militant whatever, but in actuality, the crybabies cause the biggest distraction of all.

to answer your questions. i have never tried to speak for God. the only thing i have maintained in this thread is that your logic makes no sense and while you say your proving prayer does not work...your not.

basically what i was saying is that since im not a theologan alot of what they say i just jargon to me i dont understand it. some. alot of theology i understand and alot i dont. and i dont think you can say there is not substance in theology since it is the study of religion. not necissarily belief

I dont understand why God does some things. dont get me wrong though i do understand alot he does do though. and most of the time while i dont understand during a certain time i do understand later as i mature ( just like when your young and your parents make you do something you think is stupid, but once you grow up you realize it was for your own good.

lastly i havent seen much good debate from this topic. i dont think its very debatable at all. but ill take your word for it since i havent read thruogh and looked in depth at every post

good night man maybe we can do this some other time.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][spoiler] [QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]If I pray for a circle to become a square, will God grant me my "wish"?Deity_Slapper

What a weak arguement.

Since you're just talking about shapes...that's it, just shapes, and not any physical forms that have taken those shapes, then you wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own. Draw a circle. Change your mind. Erase it. Draw a square. Yay.

Funny, because it's the same argument you've made this entire damn thread.

?

:?

[/spoiler]

What about my post do you not understand?

Ummm...I've yet to talk about squares and circles. I mean, yeah, some people in this thread are squares, and their heads are most likely circular in shape, but I never brought that up.

I think it's a great parallel actually.

In fact, I'll use your words to illustrate my point.

You wouldn't need to pray for the change. You could just make it happen on your own.Deity_Slapper

Isn't that what God wants Christians to do?

Who would know what their god wants? They don't even know ,remember?

And I'm talking about how you wouldn't need to pray for a change from god that you could do on your own so easily. But help feeding thousands of children? Yeah, you'll need to ask for assistance. I thought that's what prayer was for...according to christianity.

Uh don't make bold and stupid statements like this. Have a deep seated resentment against Deism is one thing but going on OT and bashing anyone who is a Deist is another. Honestly just stop doing these type of threads...

Uh don't make bold and stupid statements like this. Have a deep seated resentment against Deism is one thing but going on OT and bashing anyone who is a Deist is another. Honestly just stop doing these type of threads...battlefront23

You're one of those types of people who tries to boss everyone around, aren't you? :roll: