I can't go on faith. I need some physical real evidence. How do you know there is a GOD?
OldGeek88
You ever been through a hard time in your life and got through it? You ever been sad, depressed, lonely, etc. and things got better for you? Ever really desired something and got it? There is your evidence. You can't physically see what's not physical. The point is that God is the creator and ruler of this world but he is far higher than this world. He is spirit but he manifests himself into things in the world. Satan does the same.
If god were to expose himself wouldn't everyone worship him? The way I see it god wants people to worship him willingly not because you know 100% sure he is watching you.
It is impossible to know anything for certain. Take something that you know to be true. Ask yourself why you know it to be true, or how it is true. Then when you answer that, ask it again. Eventually you will reach a point where you cannot explain why something is the way it is, or how it is the way it is.
If god were to expose himself wouldn't everyone worship him? The way I see it god wants people to worship him willingly not because you know 100% sure he is watching you.
If god were to expose himself wouldn't everyone worship him? The way I see it god wants people to worship him willingly not because you know 100% sure he is watching you.
If god were to expose himself wouldn't everyone worship him? The way I see it god wants people to worship him willingly not because you know 100% sure he is watching you.
You shouldn't be asking if God is real. The real question is, what do you lose if you believe in him? What if you are wrong? Nothing. It's a disappointment at worst. If he is real and you don't believe, in the worst case you will be banished. So mathematically it's more efficient to believe in God as you lose nothing by believing and can win everything by doing so. :P I don't believe, yet.
You shouldn't be asking if God is real. The real question is, what do you lose if you believe in him? What if you are wrong? Nothing. It's a disappointment at worst. If he is real and you don't believe, in the worst case you will be banished. So mathematically it's more efficient to believe in God as you lose nothing by believing and can win everything by doing so. :P I don't believe, yet.-eddy-
You can say this is BS if you like (knock yourself out - I'm honestly not bothered :P) - basically, I have depression and usually when I feel down I try to sleep it off. Unfortunately, a few weeks ago I started feeling horrible while I was at work. Energy levels slumped, couldn't focus on anything, started having suicidal thoughts yada yada yada. So, I went to the toilet cubicle and started crying and in a moment of desperation I said this in my head (as cheesy as it is) - "Please, God just prove to me that I can feel okay. I need to know its not hopeless". After saying that, I felt... something (kind of felt like a hand) touch my back and all the pain I was feeling vanished for about 30 seconds.
So yeah, draw what you want to from that. Think I'm crazy or whatever. As I said, it doesn't bother me.
I don't KNOW if there is one, the truth is no one KNOWS, and to claim otherwise is, in my opinion, pure arrogance. Now, as for BELIEF, I don't really BELIEVE there is one, at least not in the biblical sense, and not as depicted by any other man-made religion, either. But many people BELIEVE there is, they all have very strong personal reasons to BELIEVE so, and who knows? They may be right...
[QUOTE="-eddy-"]You shouldn't be asking if God is real. The real question is, what do you lose if you believe in him? What if you are wrong? Nothing. It's a disappointment at worst. If he is real and you don't believe, in the worst case you will be banished. So mathematically it's more efficient to believe in God as you lose nothing by believing and can win everything by doing so. :P I don't believe, yet.luke1889
God hates Pascal and his silly wager. :P Nuh uh! :P Though I understand that thing doesn't work if you just think "ok I believe cause I don't have nothing to lose". Not really true faith. : /
You shouldn't be asking if God is real. The real question is, what do you lose if you believe in him? What if you are wrong? Nothing. It's a disappointment at worst. If he is real and you don't believe, in the worst case you will be banished. So mathematically it's more efficient to believe in God as you lose nothing by believing and can win everything by doing so. :P I don't believe, yet.-eddy-
Which god? There are tons of different gods from a myriad of religions? What if you choose the wrong god? What if god knows you are merely logically believing him? There are countless issues with Pascal's wager. :P
[QUOTE="-eddy-"]You shouldn't be asking if God is real. The real question is, what do you lose if you believe in him? What if you are wrong? Nothing. It's a disappointment at worst. If he is real and you don't believe, in the worst case you will be banished. So mathematically it's more efficient to believe in God as you lose nothing by believing and can win everything by doing so. :P I don't believe, yet._en1gma_
Which god? There are tons of different gods from a myriad of religions? What if you choose the wrong god? What if god knows you are merely logically believing him? There are countless issues with Pascal's wager. :P Just logically believe all of them, even though that might require some work, but you'll be safe. I mean, they maybe gods but they are no charles xavier. He can read your mind, god(s) cant.
[QUOTE="-eddy-"]You shouldn't be asking if God is real. The real question is, what do you lose if you believe in him? What if you are wrong? Nothing. It's a disappointment at worst. If he is real and you don't believe, in the worst case you will be banished. So mathematically it's more efficient to believe in God as you lose nothing by believing and can win everything by doing so. :P I don't believe, yet.luke1889
God hates Pascal and his silly wager. :PGod hates SKA!!!!:o
[QUOTE="Silent-Hal"]Because a 2000 year old book told us so :|. newb16
Why do people believe what is written in a book? Last time I checked allot of things that are written in books are not always true. The last time someone believed what was written in a book, Scientology was created. God schmod. If you feel better believing in a higher power (higher powers) then go right ahead. We won't even find out until we're dead, well maybe even not then. Or, Jesus completes his collection as a trilogy and comes back for a second time. We know pretty much nothing at the moment...
Pah y'know seeing as how the TC hasn't responded I'm just going to go ahead and assume that he is just going to sit here and wait for this to grow to 50 pages.
You shouldn't be asking if God is real. The real question is, what do you lose if you believe in him? What if you are wrong? Nothing. It's a disappointment at worst. If he is real and you don't believe, in the worst case you will be banished. So mathematically it's more efficient to believe in God as you lose nothing by believing and can win everything by doing so. :P I don't believe, yet.-eddy-
Just declaring that believing something is in your best interest, doesn't make you suddenly realise "oh, he DOES exist then!"
To prove the non-existence of god we first need to define the word "god". When christians talk about god they mean an almighty being. This, I think, is the only god that holds, since it is the only god that can be logically justified. I think it makes most sense if god is female, because only women can give life. Something that even people in the Stone Age understood. Later when wars affected the cultural evolution, and men took control of society, god became male, but the female god still lives on in the expression "Mother earth". It should also be pointed out that an omnipotent god must be either androgyne or sexless. However, in most religions god is male so I will refer to god as 'he', 'him' etc. Some people (Einstein for instance) believe in a god who is not a personal god, but a Spinozan kind of god. I claim that this god is not a god! To say that god is universe - by getting knowledge of the universe we get knowledge of god - is to redefine the meaning of the word god. This has nothing to do with the word god as it was defined by the "primitive" cultures which preceded our present civilization. He can be excluded with Occam's razor, and most important: Such a god does not hear prayers. If god is not omnipotent there is nothing that prevents him from being a product of the universe. If that is the case, what makes god divine? Then god would only be an alien, a being of matter; probably containing flesh, blood and DNA like all life we know of. Everything god is able to do would be things that human beings also will be able to do, all his knowledge would be knowledge we will also achieve. In fact humans would be gods, which should lead to some strange kind of humanism! Many people justify their faith with god as an explanation. What is the meaning of life? Where does time and space come from? Who created the physical constants? et cetera. Because we lack knowledge of these things - and maybe never will, since they are questions like "what is the color of a second?" or "how does sound taste?" - god is there as an explanation. Let's say that god is the meaning of life, what then is the meaning of god? If god has a nature, who created that nature? If god created time and space, how can god exist without it? Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time? and who created god? To answer these questions god must be almighty, or else you can't explain them. In fact you can if you say god stands above time and space and so on (which he indeed does if he is almighty), but to be able to prevent god from being tied to future phenomena, you must give him the quality of omnipotence so he can stand above everything.
If god is almighty there are several qualities he must have. They are as follows: He must know everything. Everything that is, everything that has been and everything that will be. To be able to know everything that will be he must know every position and every momentum of every particle in cosmos (Laplace's "World Spirit"). He must be worth our worship. A being that is not worth worshipping is no god. He must be able to do anything. If there are things that god can't do, he certainly is not omnipotent. He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions. He cannot be 'good' or 'evil' or, indeed, have any subjective characteristica. If god is all good, he cannot do evil things and cannot be almighty. Most people would object and say that good can do evil but chooses not to do it. Well, if god is all good he can't choose to do evil things, can he?
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?
Pah y'know seeing as how the TC hasn't responded I'm just going to go ahead and assume that he is just going to sit here and wait for this to grow to 50 pages.domatron23
For what its worth, I think you are correct on that assumption.
If god knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus god's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If god has no free will god is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If god stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if god stands above all dimensions god is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void! Besides there can exist no free wills at all if god is almighty. If you had a free will, god wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.
This is an unending argument. Throughout history philosophers have used each argument people are using here, and all of them have ultimately been proven wrong. As of right now the bottom line is that it's more logical to be an atheist or agnostic. If there is no evidence either in favor or against something's existance, you should believe it doesn't exist. This is because it is impossible to prove that something does not exist, where that is not necessarily the case in proving the existance of something. However, in defence of those with faith, many philosophers believe that the question of God's existance is an exception to this rule.
This is an unending argument. Throughout history philosophers have used each argument people are using here, and all of them have ultimately been proven wrong. As of right now the bottom line is that it's more logical to be an atheist or agnostic. If there is no evidence either in favor or against something's existance, you should believe it doesn't exist. This is because it is impossible to prove that something does not exist, where that is not necessarily the case in proving the existance of something. However, in defence of those with faith, many philosophers believe that the question of God's existance is an exception to this rule.
bballm10
Exactly, I am an agnostic myself. All I can do is to question, and that is what I am doing.
I can't go on faith. I need some physical real evidence. How do you know there is a GOD?
DragonRebel0908
You ever been through a hard time in your life and got through it? You ever been sad, depressed, lonely, etc. and things got better for you? Ever really desired something and got it? There is your evidence. You can't physically see what's not physical. The point is that God is the creator and ruler of this world but he is far higher than this world. He is spirit but he manifests himself into things in the world. Satan does the same.
what about those ppl that things don't get better for? you know the ones that die early or in brutal ways? oh so that is Satan? how convenient. sounds the same as the ancient civilizations saying that Gods pulled the Sun through the sky just because they wanted an explanation.
Physical evidence would destroy the point in faith.
tomo90
Your point being? If we received physical evidence we would lose our faith and we would know. But do we really need faith? Isn't faith really the big root to all evil?
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