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th3warr1or

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#1  Edited By th3warr1or
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@returnedbro said:

@th3warr1or:

Zionism is a lot bigger than a dictionary definition. Zionism is a component of Judaism. You still haven't explained how Judaism is opposed to Zionism - but don't bother, because it isn't. If you're gonna parrot some nonsense from the Naturei Karta types, then don't even waste your time. It seems to me that you have a profound misunderstanding of what Zionism is. Zionism is bigger than Herzl. It's bigger than kibbutzim. Bigger than Rabin.

And yes, Zionism predates Herzl. As I said, Zionism is an integral component of Judaism, it's just that it was revived as a political movement in the late 19th century and has now transcended core/Rabbinical Jewish doctrine. Kahane talked about this. Moreover, the consensus of religious Jews is NOT on your side, unless you define Zionism in a narrow sense as a secular/irreligious movement.

Good luck trying to live in Israel as a Jew under "Palestinian" rule. Good luck even trying to visit. You actually sound a lot like the enemies of the Jewish people when you say your grievance is with Zionists, but not Jews, as if there is some clear distinction between the two groups. And while Jews don't have any inherent beef with the "Palestinians", rest assured that they and virtually all other Muslims don't feel the same way. Hatred of Jews is endemic to Islam and is not a modern phenomenon as a reaction to Israel, as many would lead you to believe. You don't even seem to understand who the enemy is.

Also not really sure why you think the return of the Moshiach is just some random moment rather than the culmination of a process which includes Jews settling the land and fulfilling that element of the covenant. There has been no greater event since the exile to reconnect Jews with Judaism than the reestablishment of Israel and the return of sovereignty in the land to its rightful owners. And you denigrate this movement and its people. Shameful.

If we're not going to use a definition of a word as defined by a dictionary, then are we going to use? What basis do you have for your definition of Zionism?

1) I'm not NK, or even close to being NK. That comparison is ridiculous. Nowhere in any of my posts have I expressed support for Iran, Hamas, anti-Semites, or Holocaust deniers.

2) There IS a distinction between Zionism and Jews; you say that I sound like enemies of the Jews when my grievance is with Zionists, not Jews. Again, it is an ill-formed opinion if one relies on what anti-semites think before having their own opinions and conclusions formed. What next? If anti-semites think HKBH exists, that means we should all just reject the His existence because that opinion is held by anti-semites? Chos v'sholom!

3) If hatred of Jews is a trait of Islam, and not some political thing in the Middle East, why don't you explain to me how I have survived living among a Muslim majority -- outside of the ME -- without a single incident, payos and all? Or why Islam prior to the 20th century didn't try to annihilate us? I'm not saying there weren't events where Jews were massacred in Islam's history, but considering the circumstances, Jews in Islamic territories fared better than we did almost everywhere else.

4) Judaism teaches that golus was imposed upon us by HKBH, and it also tells us the reason why; if you don't believe that, that's fine, nobody is forcing you to, but it doesn't change the fact that it IS what Judaism teaches.

5) You seem to be under the warped impression if a Jew is anti-Zionist, he/she needs to also oppose settling the land. Where in any of my posts have I espoused such an idea?

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#2  Edited By th3warr1or
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@Hiddai said:

@th3warr1or said:

@returnedbro said:

@th3warr1or said:

There really isn't such a thing as East Jerusalem. Certainly not in the sense of there being two independent, separate cities. The same way that the Upper East Side is not a separate city from Manhattan, but simply part of Manhattan. The lines were drawn around ownership, ownership was not decided around the line. Basically, had the Zionist shmad successfully captured all of Jerusalem, there wouldn't be an East Jerusalem. The Greeks, Romans, Crusaders, and Ottomans certainly didn't view Yerusholoyim as two separate cities -- East and West.

That said, I don't care who gets Yerusholoyim, as long as I can still get to the Kosel [and return home] safely everyday. Zionists, Palestinians, אֵײן אִיז עֶרגעֶר װִי דִי אַנדעֶרעֶ.

If you want access to the Kotel, then there's no question who should have control over Jerusalem. Your "anti-Zionist" position essentially provides fodder to anti-Semites who claim that "real Jews" oppose Zionism. It's ridiculous.

I highly doubt anti-Semites need statements from anti-Zionist Jews to continue hating Jews.

In any case,

1) The opinions of anti-semites are worthless to anyone with a functioning brain.

2) They will hate Jews regardless of what is said or done.

3) Judaism DOES oppose Zionism, but even if Judaism supported Zionism, anti-Semites would use this against Jews.

Point being, anti-Semites are just going to find any reason they can (or can't find) to hate Jews. Thus, Jewish opinions should notbe formed based on what anti-Semites might do with it.

How can you say Judaism oppose to Zionism if the Majority of the Jews are zionists...And as ReturnedBro said "Being Jewish has all the relevance in the world to the "Palestinian"/Israel conflict. To say otherwise is absurd."

The core of the conflict is religious and it is just "covered" by political issues. Without religion, Jews would have stayed in Europe and never go to Israel from the beginning.

The majority of Jews are Zionists because the majority of Jews are secular and are mostly "culturally Jewish."

Judaism defines anyone who is born of a Jewish mother as a Jew, regardless of whether said person actually practices Judaism or not. There are lot of Jewish atheists and agnostics.

It's a political conflict, not religious, because the most religious Jews (whom everyone else calls "Ultra" Orthodox) have absolutely no problem with the Palestinians.

It's Judaism that tells us WHEN we will return, and HOW the return will happen -- you can't cherry-pick parts of the Tanach that says "We'll go back to Yisroel..." and then ignore the other half that says "... when Moshiach comes."

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#3  Edited By th3warr1or
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@returnedbro said:

Being Jewish has all the relevance in the world to the "Palestinian"/Israel conflict. To say otherwise is absurd.

You're right, except for your third point. Judaism doesn't oppose ZIonism - unless you define Zionism as necessarily secular or irreligious. It depends on one's perspective, I guess. One of the mitzvot, as I understand it, is to live in the land of Israel.

from http://www.aish.com/atr/Mitzvah_to_Live_in_Israel.html:

The Land of Israel is central to Judaism. It is an intrinsic part of the covenant that God promised to Abraham and his descendants (Genesis 12), and most events recorded in the Bible took place in Israel.

The mitzvah to live in Israel is based on the verse, "You shall possess the Land and dwell in it" (Numbers 33:53). The Talmud states that "every 4 amot (about 7 feet) that a person walks in Israel is another mitzvah."

The question, however, is whether this mitzvah is compulsory in our times when the Holy Temple is not standing. This is the basis of a dispute between two great Talmudic commentators, Maimonides and Nachmanides. A leading 20th century sage, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, concludes that living in Israel is a "mitzvah kiyuma" – while it is a great mitzvah, there is no absolute obligation to do so.

Stating unequivocally that Judaism opposes Zionism is incorrect, and there's not even close to an orthodox consensus on that issue. If anything, the majority of observant Jews in the world are Zionists in the sense that they are sympathetic to the state of Israel; it's just that they lament the secular nature of most its Jewish residents.

I disagree. It's not a religious war. Judaism (and thus, Jews) do not have any problems with Palestinians, any more than it has problems with the other nations. Zionists do.

As for the mitzvah of living in the Eretz Yisroel, I didn't state anything contrary to that. However, the simply living in Eretz Yisroel is not automatically (or necessarily) Zionism. Merriam-Webster defines Zionism as "political support for the creation and development of a Jewish homeland in Israel," and "an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel."

Based on that, I would say Judaism IS anti-Zionist, because although it's a mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel, it's a mitzvah to live there regardless of the government -- that doesn't automatically mean support for the government. The sanctity is in the Land itself, not the country/state/government. Yisroel was the Holy Land under the Greeks, Romans, Crusaders, Ottomans and will be the Holy Land even if it was under Palestinian rule. It was a mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel 100 years ago, 200 years ago, and so on. The government -- including the current State of Israel -- has absolutely nothing to do with the mitzvah.

Furthermore, according to Judaism, the current golus was divinely ordained, and will only end when Moshiach comes, bimheiro v'yomeinu. Regardless of whether a Jew is living in Eretz Yisroel or Chutz LaAretz, he/she is still in golus.

RaMBaN supported living in Eretz Yisroel but surely you wouldn't say that a Rabbi living 800 years ago is Zionist, considering the fact that the movement/ideology didn't even exist then!

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#4  Edited By th3warr1or
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@returnedbro said:

@th3warr1or said:

There really isn't such a thing as East Jerusalem. Certainly not in the sense of there being two independent, separate cities. The same way that the Upper East Side is not a separate city from Manhattan, but simply part of Manhattan. The lines were drawn around ownership, ownership was not decided around the line. Basically, had the Zionist shmad successfully captured all of Jerusalem, there wouldn't be an East Jerusalem. The Greeks, Romans, Crusaders, and Ottomans certainly didn't view Yerusholoyim as two separate cities -- East and West.

That said, I don't care who gets Yerusholoyim, as long as I can still get to the Kosel [and return home] safely everyday. Zionists, Palestinians, אֵײן אִיז עֶרגעֶר װִי דִי אַנדעֶרעֶ.

If you want access to the Kotel, then there's no question who should have control over Jerusalem. Your "anti-Zionist" position essentially provides fodder to anti-Semites who claim that "real Jews" oppose Zionism. It's ridiculous.

I highly doubt anti-Semites need statements from anti-Zionist Jews to continue hating Jews.

In any case,

1) The opinions of anti-semites are worthless to anyone with a functioning brain.
2) They will hate Jews regardless of what is said or done.
3) Judaism DOES oppose Zionism, but even if Judaism supported Zionism, anti-Semites would use this against Jews.

Point being, anti-Semites are just going to find any reason they can (or can't find) to hate Jews. Thus, Jewish opinions should notbe formed based on what anti-Semites might do with it.

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#5  Edited By th3warr1or
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@Hiddai said:
@th3warr1or said:

There really isn't such a thing as East Jerusalem. Certainly not in the sense of there being two independent, separate cities. The same way that the Upper East Side is not a separate city from Manhattan, but simply part of Manhattan. The lines were drawn around ownership, ownership was not decided around the line. Basically, had the Zionist shmad successfully captured all of Jerusalem, there wouldn't be an East Jerusalem. The Greeks, Romans, Crusaders, and Ottomans certainly didn't view Yerusholoyim as two separate cities -- East and West.

That said, I don't care who gets Yerusholoyim, as long as I can still get to the Kosel [and return home] safely everyday. Zionists, Palestinians, אֵײן אִיז עֶרגעֶר װִי דִי אַנדעֶרעֶ.

Yiedish? For real? Why this language isn't dead already...

Why do you call us Zionists? Nobody but the muslims use this term...We are Jews much like you the only difference is that we live in Israel.

The situation is very complicated when Jerusalem is important for the whole 3 religions. Unfortunately, there will never be peace until something dramatic will occure (Like a massive WW3 or something lol)

I'm pretty sure most of Knesset would happily call themselves "Zionists."

I use the term Zionists, because not all Zionists are Jews, and not all Jews are Zionists. That is something some anti-Zionists -- mostly the non-Jewish ones -- don't seem to understand, perhaps because they're subconsciously anti-semites.

You may be a Jew, as may be the majority of Israel, but being a Jew has absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand, namely, the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

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#6  Edited By th3warr1or
Member since 2007 • 20637 Posts

There really isn't such a thing as East Jerusalem. Certainly not in the sense of there being two independent, separate cities. The same way that the Upper East Side is not a separate city from Manhattan, but simply part of Manhattan. The lines were drawn around ownership, ownership was not decided around the line. Basically, had the Zionist shmad successfully captured all of Jerusalem, there wouldn't be an East Jerusalem. The Greeks, Romans, Crusaders, and Ottomans certainly didn't view Yerusholoyim as two separate cities -- East and West.

That said, I don't care who gets Yerusholoyim, as long as I can still get to the Kosel [and return home] safely everyday. Zionists, Palestinians, אֵײן אִיז עֶרגעֶר װִי דִי אַנדעֶרעֶ.

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#7  Edited By th3warr1or
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Thor had less portrayal issues than Dark World.

Just a handful of the problems I had with Dark World.

1) Dark Elf laser guns. What the heck? Dark Elves used swords and sorcery/magic (which was explained by Thor as super advanced science), but certainly not a spaceship and laser guns that wouldn't feel out of place in Star Wars/Star Trek.

2) The Dark Elves "origins." No, they're not an ancient race that precedes the Asgardians. Not in the myths, not in the comics.

3) SPOILER Odin couldn't revive Frigga. This is plot induced stupidity (PIS), because that is well within the capabilities of the Odinforce. Heck, Thor died in the first movie and came back to life because of a spoken enchantment Odin put on Mjolnir.

4) The Asgardians can't fight for nuts, and get taken down easier than stormtroopers. PIS as well, because Asgardians (which are an original creation of the comics) are a lot tougher than portrayed.

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#8 th3warr1or
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@iHarlequin said:
@th3warr1or said:

Ok, so I'm non-Zionist (anti-Zionist, where the government is concerned) but I've always found the argument that "If the Jews living in the land 2000 years ago makes it theirs, then the US should be British/Native American," one of the dumbest, most hypocritical arguments ever.

I don't see how it can be applied to Israel but not to Palestine. Why, because only 6 decades have passed? So where is the invisible line drawn -- the line that says "You lived here so long ago, there's nothing to give back."

I oppose the State of Israel for religious reasons, but my reasons for thinking Israel shouldn't exist have absolutely no anti-semitic value in them, unlike many anti-Zionists.

But leaving religion aside (because it's a given that my reasons for opposing Israel aren't yours), how was the founding of the British Colonies in the US any different from what the Zionists are doing in Israel?

The trend I've witnessed among anti-Zionists is generally this:

If the Jews are native to the land, then it's "You lived here 2000 years ago. Should we return the US to the Native Americans?"

If the Jews AREN'T native to the land (generally the opinion of anti-semites), then it's "You're European AshkeNAZI Khazar Talmud Jews who have no claim to Israel, and are committing genocide against the native population and trying to steal land from Palestinians."

It wasn't. I'm not saying it was. I also wasn't alive when they happened. I wasn't alive to see the colonization of African and its subsequent division, completely artifical and that we now see the consequences of. I wasn't alive to see when the Portuguese arrived at the land which is now my country, Brazil (I am not American), and the subsequent butchering of the vast majority of the local population by people that some dare call heroes, the 'Bandeirantes'. I am, however, alive to see Israel's expansion, and neocolonialism. I reiterate that I'm not against the existence of a State of Israel in Palestine, I just think there should be a more equal division of the land, taking into account each population's size.


If you put it that way, I don't disagree. Well, I guess I do, because I am against the existence of a State of Israel, as it stands (though it has already happened, so it's too late to do anything at this point).

But you can't deny that a large number of those who claim to be merely "anti-Zionists," are in fact, anti-semites simply using a politically correct name for their hatred of Jews.

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#9  Edited By th3warr1or
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@Hiddai said:

Despite what some may claim, peace won't come so quickly even if we will give them the whole Jerusalem...

Of course it won't. Anti-Zionist Hareidim make up 1% of the Anti-Zionists in general.

A good number of anti-Zionists are anti-semites who hate Jews whether said Jews are Zionists or not. Anti-Zionism is simply a politically correct name to mask their Jew-hatred.

That said, to me, it doesn't matter who owns Yerusholoyim as long as Jews are still allowed to pray freely at the Kosel.

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#10  Edited By th3warr1or
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@Darkman2007 said:

@th3warr1or said:
@Darkman2007 said:

@th3warr1or said:
@Darkman2007 said:

its because its the land of Israel ,regardless of the state, as for the Knesset , its because its a matter of realities vs doctrine.

they might not necessarily approve of things, but most Haredim I suspect have made peace with the idea.

This, pretty much.

Im assuming youre not for dividing the land of Israel, so what would be your solution to this whole territorial issue?

I'm not sure whether anything would work at this point, to be honest.

As in, what I feel may work from a pragmatic standpoint, is somewhat in conflict with my ideology.

the ironic thing here is that I (the big evil Zionist according to some) would be willing to share, wheres most Anti Zionist Jews (apart from a few on the far left like Chomsky) would never give a grain of sand away.

hilariously I think even Neturei Karta still believes the land belongs entirely to the Jews, something the Hamas members they parade with probably don't know.

though I have a feeling this issue won't be resolved in the near future, these types of conflicts (especially in the Middle East) can take centuries to solve.

I'm not so sure about that, to be honest.

The overwhelming Litvishe (non-Chassidic) opinion follows Rav Shach, that as much land as needed should be traded for peace -- a real, lasting peace, not the kind where rockets are fired again.

In other words, IF peace can be achieved through the giving of land, then it SHOULD be achieved by such. Pikuach Nefesh takes precedence over almost all other mitzvos, including living in Eretz Yisroel. I don't know of any Hareidim who would disagree with me on this, with the exception of Chabadniks.