[QUOTE="jimmygrace"][QUOTE="yrag31"]yeah but worst teamate ever did you know he punched Steve Kerr and Will Perdue in their practice back then...Master_Live

Yeah except Kobe rape case for which at least we know he cheated on his wife, being the main reason for the L.A. Lakers break up and snitching out on Shaq while being question by police for the rape case.

Can we just stop this pointless, endless debating. If you think about it we are arguing over something stupid. These players are great and we just enjoy watching them playing instead of arguing which one was the best. In their own ways they are the best. This is why the NBA choose 50 GREAT Players and not just ONE! Lets end this. hoop_hard

[QUOTE="mont13"]

"Regardless of what you might think, the only that matters is that Jordan has achieved a hell of a lot more than Kobe. Despite the fact that Kobe is a great player, he has a lot of catching up to do."

Sorry to cloud the issue with those facts, but regardless of what you might think, MJ did not get those acheivements in a vacuum, or on his own. He was the most talented part of well put togehter TEAMS. When he did not have a well put together team he scored a lot because he shot a lot, he has the 2nd higest FGA in history Eigin Baylor is first by a hair. But AGAIN, during those times MJ was not the great leader you think he was. HE WAS VERY SELFISH!!!!

Kobe does not have to catch up to anybody. Kobe should do the best he can with the team he's on and the current level of competition in the league. Kobe is no less a player because he hasn't matched MJ stat for stat or ring for ring. If they played in parallel universes, on the same teams, in the same era, with the same coach, with the same level of competition, under the same rules...only then can you compare their accomplishments fairly.

All I'm trying to tell all of you is MJ had his Day, he was a GREAT player, maybe the greatest. He also had several negatives that people want to forget, but choose to remember in Kobe.

Kobe is a great talent, he may or may not win another ring, but I'm telling you in Kobe Bryant you are seeing one of the GREATEST B-Ball players you will ever see, enjoy it.

dkhw

Wow...I can't believe there is someone else in this forum that doesn't have his head stuck up jordan's @$$. Completely agree with you, there is no way to pinpoint THE greatest player in a sports because there is too many variables involved in it. If you really want to compare two great players, you have to put them in similar situations and see how they end up, but obviously this is not possible. Kobe may or may not be the greates, who knows. MJ may or may not be the greatest, but he seems the closest thing to having a perfect NBA career.

I never said making a tougher j is the only criteria for greatness. When comparing the B-Ball skills of MJ and Kobe, Kobe's J is better than MJ's period ! Don't read more into it. Some keep saying MJ is better skill-wise because of his tougher D, its only fair to point out where Kobe is better than MJ, right???!

Because some don't care about history doesn't make it unimportant. MJ did not invent B-ball, he saw other greats before him and built on that.

"but when it comes to the best overall player in NBA ever, this means (offense, athleticism, defense, team-defense, leadership, passion for the game) hands down it's all MJ".

MJ is not better offensively than Kobe, Kobe is as atheletic as they come, MJ has the edge on D, team D is not a consideration unless each player has the same supporting cast, Kobe's passion for the game is UN QUESTIONABLE!, that leaves "LEADERSHIP"

MJ only "became" a "good leader" when he had a good team around him, before that he was known as a selfish ballhog, coach killer!. Kobe has the the YOUNGEST TEAM IN THE NBA, that has had major injuries to STARTERS, but STILL HAS his sub-par team ABOVE 500 AND 2ND IN HIS DIVISION, in the tougher conference, his teammates and coach speak highly of him and his LEADERSHIP...but still no love for Kobe!.... sickening!

MJ never made his teamates better! Kerr and Paxson came into the league with one skill, shooting! They left with that one skill! Playing with MJ didn't make them better defenders, rebounders, shot blockers, etc.

Pippen was a good all round player in college, when MJ first retired Pippen became 1 of 2 players IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA to lead his team in 4 catagories(points, rbs, assists and steals), Dave Cowens was the other.

BJ Armstrong made the all-star team for the 1st time when MJ retired. Horace Grant made the all-star team for the first time when he was traded to Orlando. They were better players away from MJ.

D. Rodman was already a great rebounder/defender/garbage man before he came to the Bulls and MJ. Playing with MJ didn't make him an offensive force, Rodman just did what he always did!

Players have to have talent and improve on it themselves. Why didn't MJ make Stacey King, Granville Waiters, or Sam Vincent better??? He couldn't , he was frustrated and had to wait until they got better players!

Kobe can't turn Kwame Brown into Carl Malone no more than MJ could turn Stacey King into Dennis Rodman! Kobe can't make Smush Parker shoot like Steve Kerr no more than MJ could make Sam Vincent shoot like J. Paxson.

See why history is important! It makes you a better/fairer judge of whats really going on. MJ does get too much credit, which is why its fair to say he's OVER- RATED! The Bulls simply found the best cast and team formula/chemistry to put around his great talent, that's why they won! His t-mates sacrificed their games for the center piece MJ(as they should have) but MJ didn't make them better players.

When MJ first retired the Bulls only lost 2 MORE GAMES THAN THE PREVIOUS SEASON! The Bulls winning had more to do with the team formula and having the right complementary players in place. If/When Kobe gets that watch people sing his praises as a leader, but fair minded people can see he is doing fine as a leader with what he has now.

mont13

[QUOTE="SilverArmor82"]Idiots....................I have seen no player physically do the things Jordan did and I think it will forever be that way. Kobe is the best right now. Jordan played in a league that was tougher and rougher defensively than the league is now. Jordan is still the greatest. All good players have been a-holes to their teammates at some point or another.dkhw

Greatest? In evey sports, there is no such thing as definite greatest, but MJ is almost everyone's greatest player.

MJ has better career numbers only because he came into the league on a weak team so he played "starters' minutes right away.

Kobe came in from high school to a good/established team that did not need to play a rookie big minutes, therefore he did not put up big numbers.

I'd give MJ the edge on defense, but Kobe on offense. Kobe has better range on his J and is the BEST SCORER EVER, including Wilt, considering the variety of ways he can score. Wilt was a giant amongst midgets of course he set scoring records.

MJ's top 4 scoring games(69,64,63,61) came in OT's, one was in 2ot's. Kobe dropped 81 in regulation time and most of his other big games were in regulation. Kobe got 81 on 46 shots, MJ got 64 on 49 shots(in ot).

GIVE KOBE HIS PROPS !!

mont13

[QUOTE="nickdastick"]I just can't believe nobody has a new post about Kobe not making 50 points tonight! I swear, when he did it, one would pop up EVERYTIME and be the same exact thread with the same exact posts as the other ones! I will say Kobe's team did win tonight and they did during the streak but it is still a bit overrated just due to the fact that the teams they played suck and they barely won each game. I know Kobe is a very good player but scoring a lot in five straight games doesn't make him the best ever. His team is going to get dropped in the playoffs (if they make it since there is a chance they won't) because Kobe can't score like that consistently against the playoff caliber teams (I'm talking four games in a row against the likes of San Antonio, Mavs, Suns, Jazz, etc). So I have said it before and I will say it again, Kobe will not win MVP because he isn't the MVP. He is a very good SOLO player but he doesn't do what an MVP does which is make his teammates better. You can say he does make his team better but that hasn't amounted to much because he doesn't play like this all the time. If he has an off game (which he actually does) he doesn't help his team out at all because he will keep firing bricks and not get his team into it and let them help out. Dirk or Nash will get the MVP and the Lakers will lose in the 1st or MAYBE the 2nd round and that's that.dkhw

I don't see the logic in your arguement. You said MVP makes other players better, but Kobe has consistently helped out his teammates and worked with them all season and made honest efforts to get teammates involved. Is that not enough? Should Nash get it because he gets 11 APG? Is it because Kobe ONLY gets 6 APG? Making team better can't be measured by assists since Kobe and Nash play in completely different positions.

Also, MVP is an award that goes to the person who has the single best season in the league and the most valuable to his own team. That's Kobe. There is no one who's playing better than Kobe and without Kobe, Lakers is a lottery team.