Forza or Gran turismo?

Haha. You guys are super rattled. When I talk about agendas, I'm only referring to cheerleaders like you two. There are plenty of people that genuinely prefer Gran Turismo and that's fine. I think you guys are just mad about being called fanboys. But if the shoe fits...

Arcadey is a meaningless buzzword. It doesn't actually say anything about why a game is less realistic.

Forza is more believable because its physics are good enough while its AI and damage is more convincing. That combo trumps GT's reliance on the driving model for portraying realism.

Admittedly, I could have worded that last bit much better, but didn't say that one couldn't prefer GT without being a fanboy. I am saying that people with an agenda try to boil the discussion down to a single convenient element whereas more neutral parties look at how good the game is overall. Not to mention that you hardly just expressed your preference; you said it was silly to not boil the discussion down to the driving model.

Sigh

You seem quite stupid. I mean seriously your argument is, "wahhhhhhh you a fanboy" for not choosing a game you seem to be a fanboy of. The only person who is acting like a fanboy of anything here is you. The stupidity of your argument is mind numbing but I digress..

Basically, no matter what I or the other guy said, you would have ran to the "fanboy/agenda" argument if we didn't say Forza like you wanted right? I mean since that is basically what you did when we replied.

I find it odd being the fact the neither of us said anything fanboyish against Forza nor did we fail to explain the reason why we preferred GT over the Forza,

so I guess my question to you is what makes you think making "fanboy" excuse means anything when you are acting like a fanboy? Honestly, I didn't even know you were challenging my opinion about why I preferred GT over Forza until your post about agendas or other nonsense or I wouldn't have even taken out the time to even honor you with a valid reply.

I get it. You are a simple minded fanboy who thinks calling other people fanboys is a good argument. I don't know but you act like a raging xbox fanboy only posting out of loyalty to MS because why else would you be talking about Sony here. like where did that come from? All I can say is continue posting like a halfwit fanboy

GT > Forza because I enjoy the gameplay more.

Think I am a fanboy for my opinion? Cool I feel the same for you so there is no further reason to ever have a discussion together. Since "fanboy" rants are the limit of your argument ability we are done here. Keep fighting the good fight Mr. blind xbox lunatic.

lol. Haven't got his much rage thrown at me in a long time. Keep it coming.

I simply disagreed with your notion that GT's gameplay was better with this post; "GT's gameplay really can't be better with its archaic AI. The handling model is superb but there's more to gameplay than that. For GT to get the gameplay crown back, it needs to make the moment to moment racing feel more dynamic" and then you started with the usual talking points about arcadeyness and about how how it's silly to look at other things besides the driving model. You're trying to act like I simply said "lol fanboy" when I rebutted your points. I think you should just stop getting hung up on the bits about fanboys. It's making you so angry that you're unable to reply to the larger points about not boiling the discussion down to a convenient element. Though admittedly I could leave that fanboy stuff out. I'll give you that much.

You're not a fanboy for your opinion but for your general behavior.

Its fact i was owner of GT titles up to 4 , its fact i played GT5 and GT6 , its fact i played various other racing games thru my gaming exp up till now like NFS , MSR , DIRT , BURNOUT and various other titles ... Its fact GT was and still is one of the best , if not the best , console driving simulator which thats the main sale point of this title and not its arcade touch like other racing games.

And since i beleive in that department is better than Forza ill stand with my opinion , even if Forza being better overall. PERIOD ... If that makes you mad and want to attack me , so be it . Cry me a river all i care

Its fact you talking out of your butt trying to win an argument with insults ( dickriders ) out of nowhere and its fact you stating "facts" that are bluntly lies and out of your butt. Its fact also you playing with words and statements. My " im not a big fan of racing games " translates to " im not interested " by you over and over even after the clarification to try to annoy. You annoying yourself more i assure you.

Those are the facts. All im saying is cry me a river , if someone is mad is you ! Its you attacking me because of an opinion not the other way around. Keep doing it , i have all day. The butthurt fanboy is you . You lost the argument already and you trying hard to annoy me or make it personal because you run out of arguments to the original post ... And im the mad one ?!! lol ... Ok !! If that makes you stop crying , im maaaad !! lol

Both are fine. I'm more of a Trackmania/Mario Kart guy myself....

Haha. Nobody's attacking you for your opinion. I simply said to delta that I didn't think it was a genuine one. Admittedly, it would have been better for the thread for me to keep my mouth shut on that, but I stand by my opinion.

@GreySeal9: As a big racing fan and i picked GT , tell me why Forza is better and specify which Forza you are talking about.

My love for Forza 2 can't match my love for GT 3 , and i will admit , GT 5 is a travesty to the series only for the stupid level system and half assed B-spec driver.

ps:I haven't played Forza 5 and Horizen 2 so maybe they can win me over.

I know bro ... He is getting mad because i say GT is a better simulator thats why ill go with it VS Forza while i clarified twice that if this topic was talking about which game is better as of now , i would say Forza !!

He run out of arguments and he tries to make that personal ... with fantastic scenarios out of his butt ... I mean lol ... Leave him be , its funny.

Forza 3 and 4 are better than Gran Turismo 5 and 6. Not hating on GT3 at all. It was an astonishing achievement for its time.

"I think you should just stop getting hung up on the bits about fanboys"

Surprised that came from you

BTW: I was never hung up on it, remembered who started the conversation and who turned it into some silly fanboy contest.

@playharderfool said:

@GreySeal9 said:

lol. Haven't got his much rage thrown at me in a long time.

I simply disagreed with your notion that GT's gameplay was better with this post; "GT's gameplay really can't be better with its archaic AI. The handling model is superb but there's more to gameplay than that. For GT to get the gameplay crown back, it needs to make the moment to moment racing feel more dynamic" and then you started with the usual talking points about arcadeyness and about how how it's silly to look at other things besides the driving model. You're trying to act like I simply said "lol fanboy" when I rebutted your points. I think you should just stop getting hung up on the bits about fanboys. It's blinding you to the bigger picture. Though admittedly I could leave that stuff out. I'll give you that much.

You're not a fanboy for your opinion but for your general behavior.

"I think you should just stop getting hung up on the bits about fanboys"

Surprised that came from you

BTW: I was never hung up on it, remembered who started the conversation and who turned it into some silly fanboy contest.

The point just went over your head.

I'm admitting that the fanboy stuff that I added in there probably should have been left out, as true as it is. But you are letting those bits enrage you to the point that you're not actually countering my arguments about holistic gameplay evaluations versus singling out elements. It's fine if you find GT more rewarding, but when you start calling holistic analyses silly and when you start using basic ass talking points like "herp a derp arcadey," you open your posts up for argument. It seems my comments about fanboys either upset you, which I will admit was not the best way of approaching the conversation if that makes you feel better, or you're deliberately focusing on them to avoid my larger arguments.

@GreySeal9 said:

@playharderfool said:

"I think you should just stop getting hung up on the bits about fanboys"

Surprised that came from you

BTW: I was never hung up on it, remembered who started the conversation and who turned it into some silly fanboy contest.

The point just went over your head.

I'm admitting that the fanboy stuff that I added in there probably should have been left out, as true as it is. But you are letting those bits enrage you to the point that you're not actually countering my arguments about holistic gameplay evaluations versus singling out elements. It's fine if you find GT more rewarding, but when you start calling holistic analyses silly and when you start using basic ass talking points like "herp a derp arcadey," you open your posts up for argument. It seems my fanboy comments either upset you, which I will admit was not the best way of approaching the conversation if that makes you feel better, or you're deliberately focusing on them to avoid my greater arguments.

No, you are the one that has the problem because I DID answer your question.

You are the one who hasn't taken in what I've said, that isn't my fault. You are still incapable of producing any argument that isn't simply your opinion to objectively supersede what I said. You need to learn what it takes to create valid arguments in a discussion because you don't seem to apply reasoning to your posts. You can say I am feeling however you want but you were the one who got emotional when I told you what I thought about Forza and you started cursing me lol.

You seem to think you have some kind of point with your "holistic" analysis? Well if we are talking about a sim, handling and physics are the number 1 aspect to make it good. All other aspects can make it a better but for sim those are most important not this all in one nonsense you are talking about.

This holistic argument you are using is exactly what amounts to arcade racers. Have you seen the new need for speed and it's updated customization? Maybe that would be a better game than forza for you since you don't seem to care about the sim aspects.

As an Sim racer GT is better than Forza period. As of GT 6 that remains to be true.

Maybe if you are just looking for a all around fit I can see why you'd prefer Forza but don't push your silly mentality on others because you lack of understanding of why people prefer GT. Your attitude is extremely arrogant, ignorant and the word you like to use fanboyish. I have been playing racing games since Pole Position on Atari 2600. Don't tell me what i do and don't know about racers or how I should describe them in my words. I doubt you are even into racers and are only making a big deal because xbox has a high rated series in this genre you most likely a fakeboy.

As for your claims that I am a fanboy I could care less, it's a simpletons way to make arguments here, anyone can do that. I am sure I've played more xbox racers than you know existed and I even had a discussion about all the original xbox games people never gave a chance that I supported because they were original xbox games about a week ago. If I find that thread and post it you will look like an even bigger fool and fanboy than you do for your "sony/fanboy" argument now. I call it how I see it, you don't know anything but how to scream fanboy so do continue on with your silly sony fanboy garbage posts, after all, that is your only argument here.

LOL GT, c'mon TC, way to rub it in. :P

Forza crushes GT in my opinion.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I was say Forza in the last couple years has been better,

Not just in the last couple of years. Pretty much ever since Forza has been around to compete against GT, and has continuously outpaced it.

I still think GTA 5> Forza 4

The one that took 6 years to develop, just to recycle PS2 assets (of approx. 2/3 of the cars) ? That had damage as a level unlockable instead of a primary game mechanic? Better than Forza 4, or any of the Forza games?

You're starting to lose your edge in trolling there, Heil ol boy ;)

Since I don't Xbox, my default pick is Gran Turismo. It's the game that introduced me to Sim racers and its one of my favorite game franchises of all time.

The lengthy car list, the lengthy track list, the tuning/customization options, the physics, the graphics...it's one of the few games, along with Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Grand Theft Auto, and Civilization, that are must buy for me every time a new version is released.

I don't put much time into gaming as I did when I was young and single, so I don't bother playing a lot of different games. I only put money into the franchises that I know are going to deliver 80+ hours.

I actually want to apologize for being a bit of a dick to you in this thread and for being generally trollish. I should have kept my opinion of your opinion to myself as you weren't actually being fanboyish in this thread. Sometimes I can be as asshole in SW!

Unless you misinterpret and he is literally talking about GTAV lol which also has a complete diving and customizing system for cars and driving like Forza.

You know, this game

Lol I wouldn't put it past Heil :)

It would be funny if that is what he really meant knowing you'd assume he was saying GT5. If you think about it GT5 wouldn't really make sense anyway as GT6 is out and is better than GT5 in almost every way. GTA5 is the most recent Grand Theft game however.

@playharderfool said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@playharderfool said:

"I think you should just stop getting hung up on the bits about fanboys"

Surprised that came from you

BTW: I was never hung up on it, remembered who started the conversation and who turned it into some silly fanboy contest.

The point just went over your head.

I'm admitting that the fanboy stuff that I added in there probably should have been left out, as true as it is. But you are letting those bits enrage you to the point that you're not actually countering my arguments about holistic gameplay evaluations versus singling out elements. It's fine if you find GT more rewarding, but when you start calling holistic analyses silly and when you start using basic ass talking points like "herp a derp arcadey," you open your posts up for argument. It seems my fanboy comments either upset you, which I will admit was not the best way of approaching the conversation if that makes you feel better, or you're deliberately focusing on them to avoid my greater arguments.

No, you are the one that has the problem because I DID answer your question.

You are the one who hasn't taken in what I've said, that isn't my fault. You are still incapable of producing any argument that isn't simply your opinion to objectively supersede what I said. You need to learn what it takes to create valid arguments in a discussion because you don't seem to apply reasoning to your posts. You can say I am feeling however you want but you were the one who got emotional when I told you what I thought about Forza and you started cursing me lol.

You seem to think you have some kind of point with your "holistic" analysis? Well if we are talking about a sim, handling and physics are the number 1 aspect to make it good. All other aspects can make it a better but for sim those are most important not this all in one nonsense you are talking about.

This holistic argument you are using is exactly what amounts to arcade racers. Have you seen the new need for speed and it's updated customization? Maybe that would be a better game than forza for you since you don't seem to care about the sim aspects.

As an Sim racer GT is better than Forza period. As of GT 6 that remains to be true.

Maybe if you are just looking for a all around fit I can see why you'd prefer Forza but don't push your silly mentality on others because you lack of understanding of why people prefer GT. Your attitude is extremely arrogant, ignorant and the word you like to use fanboyish. I have been playing racing games since Pole Position on Atari 2600. Don't tell me what i do and don't know about racers or how I should describe them in my words. I doubt you are even into racers and are only making a big deal because xbox has a high rated series in this genre you most likely a fakeboy.

As for your claims that I am a fanboy I could care less, it's a simpletons way to make arguments here, anyone can do that. I am sure I've played more xbox racers than you know existed and I even had a discussion about all the original xbox games people never gave a chance that I supported because they were original xbox games about a week ago. If I find that thread and post it you will look like an even bigger fool and fanboy than you do for your "sony/fanboy" argument now. I call it how I see it, you don't know anything but how to scream fanboy so do continue on with your silly sony fanboy garbage posts, after all, that is your only argument here.

Haha calm your tits bro. Like I said, I posted in a more trollish way than I should have, but you hardly need to get so worked up.

I'm not going to address everything you've posted here because it's a novel of a post, but I'll address a bit of it.

"You seem to think you have some kind of point with your "holistic" analysis? Well if we are talking about a sim, handling and physics are the number 1 aspect to make it good. All other aspects can make it a better but for sim those are most important not this all in one nonsense you are talking about."

First of all, GT and Forza are not actually sims in the strict sense. They are racing games first and foremost and only vaguely attempt to simulate; if GT was making a serious attempt at being a sim, the damage model wouldn't be so utterly unrealistic and there would be far more depth to the tuning and what not. As I said, this whole "it's the driving model that counts" above everything argument only starting coming into vogue once Gran Turismo started falling behind in other ways.

There is no rule saying that in a racing game, sim or otherwise, the driving model trumps all other aspects. It's fine if that's what you personally value, but when assessing how good any game in any genre is, it only makes sense to analyze it based on how its elements come together.

"This holistic argument you are using is exactly what amounts to arcade racers. Have you seen the new need for speed and it's updated customization? Maybe that would be a better game than forza for you since you don't seem to care about the sim aspects."

This makes no sense. The holistic argument applies to all genres and sub-genres.

"As an Sim racer GT is better than Forza period. As of GT 6 that remains to be true."

If you're simply basing this on the driving model, this claim is pretty think. In a sim, tuning/customization/damage etc all play a role. Your attempt to isolate driving mechanics as the only relevant criteria in a simulation is disingenuous at best. You're trying to artificially give GT a victory without explaining why we should simply ignore the multiple aspects of simulation in favor of GT's one clear strength.

I am not going to argue your opinion vs my opinion because it's clear where we both stand.

Maybe you could have asked me to explain what I meant further and try to understand what I think about the subject. But like you I will address a few things you say.

the holistic argument from my viewpoint, if you are saying it applies to all games, is more about the over-all value or quality of a game from someones stand point. In that respect let me clarify 2 things:

1. I was not trying to give GT a win or any other silly notion because I don't fap to games I don't care about. If I didn't care about racers or didn't play both games to have an opinion I wouldn't even post in this thread but that is me.

2. If I wasn't judging them as sim but just overall racing games I would probably say Forza 3 is the best of the 2 racing franchises last gen.

Here is what I want you to wrap your head around. I DON'T think about Forza or GT as over-all or general racers, I think of them as sim focuses racers and that is how I judge them. If These were supposed to be arcade racers my mentality and how I judge them would be completely different. When I want to play a sim focused game GT has always been better. Forza is a really good racing series and I have had fun with it but it lacks the realism and attention to mechanical proficiency that seems to shine in GT games. The learning curve for GT is higher than Forza and presents more of a challenge to master and a greater sense of accomplishment for me.

I am the same way about fighting games. I don't judge area fighters the same way I would focused straight up twitch fighters. I never really take area fighters seriously even if there is quality and high levels in them. The stuff isn't the same even if it's in the same genre. You can have whatever opinion you want but before you try to challenge someone's opinion be sure you understand where they are coming from.

Forza 3 imo was the best exclusive game from 360's entire library and I don't regret buying it, but it still wasn't a better sim than GT and that is what I play GT for and enjoy more.

"As an Sim racer GT is better than Forza period. As of GT 6 that remains to be true."

I don't think that this statement really holds true anymore anyways. If you ignore and turn off all the assists, and play both games as simply a sim, Forza still comes out on top. It's tuning and customization is much better implemented than GT's. The handling physics are also closer to the real thing than GT, and let's not even get started on the audio.

Forza pretty much does everything better at this point. PD surely have the experience though to put GT back in the race, bUT who knows what they'll do.

Some of this I'm simply going to say fair enough to, but my point is that even when judging these as sims, it doesn't make sense to isolate a single element. There is more to simulation than the driving model. The stark distinction between sims and overall racers is a false one.

It would be one thing if you said that you prefer/or more highly value what GT offers in the simulation department but if you're gonna say "GT is a better sim period," simply pointing to driving model and ignoring the other stuff is kinda weaksauce.

I didn't isolate anything, I just pointed out my focus when looking at those type of games.

It's clear that you can't really accept a view point different than yours even when someone goes through the time and trouble to explain in detail what they are talking about.

kinda weaksauce.

I wasn't aware my opinion needed to a megaton to be understood or valid in a discussion. You brought it up, but I am going to repeat what you told me, it seems like you are trying to create reasons to make Forza be the answer here.

If you only wanted to hear my reasoning to understand why I preferred GT over Forza I think this conversation would have been over but is seems you have a goal of making my opinion wrong or finding a whole in my reasoning. You can pick all day but you won't be able to find a whole in anything I say because I have felt the same way for years before this conversation and before coming on system wars. What you are doing here is what you would probably describe as having an "agenda".

See, I don't really care why you like what you like nor will I ask you to explain why you like Forza or GT because that is fanboy stuff. I don't hate Forza enough to not understand why someone would choose Forza over GT nor do I like GT so much that I can't give and receive criticism on that franchise.

The problem I have with your argument stance is that you are acting as if Forza is so much better than GT that someone could not possibly have a preference of it over Forza and that kind of makes having a discussion with you about it pointless. Forza isn't all that, not in scores nor public reception, in fact GT is still the first game people think of when talking about sim racers not Forza.

2:22 - 2:35 speaks for me

The fact that you can't accept these things has lead to a dead end with talking about it.

This is not even close to what I've been arguing. I get why people like GT better.

I'm saying that when you start making emphatic claims like "As an Sim racer GT is better than Forza period," you open your post up to debate. I'm not saying opinion is objective wrong or anything like that, but you if you make a claim like that or a forum like this, expect to be challenged. You don't need to agree that Forza is better but if you say emphatically that GT is a better sim, it seems kind of weak to then hide behind the preference card rather than debate the various aspects of simulation instead of just one. You keep disingenuously acting like you were merely stating your preference when you clearly making argumentative claims and employing SW talking points.

Forza, denying is lying.

I've been a Gran Turismo fan since the first game, and I have never played a Forza title (only because its a Xbox exclusive). But Im voting Forza here.

@GreySeal9: That's what I got from the conversation as well. He pops up, makes a statement, then jumps behind the observation and opinion card. It's like playing wack a mole or something. You can't debate someone like that. Its just a waste of time.

i was asleep. people just get winded up so easily. and in the above argument^ they weren't even making a meaningful argument. @playharderfool you can now argue with me, i was asleep... i can understand GT's driving physics are better than forza, but other than that, forza is all over GT as the better game.

exactly my point, slightly better driving physics=/= a better game.

Forza if you want to have fun without dedicating yourself to racing games.

GT if you do want to dedicate yourself to racing games; I doubt anyone on this forum has completed every challenge in GT 5.

Project Cars would be my choice over either, if i couldnt have that though and had to choose i would take GT over forza.

GT and forza both have a mountain to climb though to better pCARS interms of racing/playability.

@tushar172787:

Forza has GT beat as far as driving physics goes as well. GT's greatest strength is soundly outdone by Forza as well. It really is a complete sweep.

Of course this may change when PD get around to releasing the next GT, but for now, Forza has surpassed it.

No "sim" type racing game has sucked me in as much as the first two Gran Turismo games.

the fourth one was the best in my personal opinion. 700+ cars holy shit i had a lot of fun with it!

Not much of a racing fan, but GT is the only racing games i enjoy. By far the best simulation, expect for damage which i hope gets done one day. GT are the real pro racing games. Try to compete against pros on GT academy every year. I got no chance lol but its ok im pro at other games.

GT7 the only racing game i will buy.

That is fair. GT4 was when the amount of cars vs the game structure sort of bored me. I never cared for the ps2 ones that much. I know they aren't bad games and I own GT4, but back then I expected more I think--very similar to the reception of GT5.

...Not saying I didn't enjoy the game, I did, just not as much as the first two.

...Also always thought the first two games had stellar soundtracks.

Not much into racing games....they pretty much are all the same under the hood.

...and they have a much longer career/replayability value than your average game. all worth it in the end.

Only if you like racing over and over. I don't get the appeal of NASCAR either.

it's like trying over and over again to shave milliseconds off your time. play it to know that feeling :P like hitting the ball perfectly in tennis, or or putting the basketball in the hoop n times in a row, or scoring penalties in football.. it's like saying why do sports have that appeal.. it's just the same game with the same rules.

@tushar172787:

Greatly benefits from a decent wheel.

and i happen to have a nice one. but i have to buy one for next gen, will have to see how the G920 is, if it's good, then i'll splurge! if not, then i'll splurge on the T500 anyway!

@tushar172787 said:

@Heirren said:

@tushar172787:

Greatly benefits from a decent wheel.

and i happen to have a nice one. but i have to buy one for next gen, will have to see how the G920 is, if it's good, then i'll splurge! if not, then i'll splurge on the T500 anyway!

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach. If leaps and bounds are made in Gran Turismo(I don't have Xbox One for Forza) or an F1 game, then I'll likely pick something up.

Racing seems to be a genre that started to see great benefit from hardware but I've been nothing but disappointed in most of the more recent ones, sim wise.

@Heirren said:

@tushar172787 said:

@Heirren said:

@tushar172787:

Greatly benefits from a decent wheel.

and i happen to have a nice one. but i have to buy one for next gen, will have to see how the G920 is, if it's good, then i'll splurge! if not, then i'll splurge on the T500 anyway!

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach. If leaps and bounds are made in Gran Turismo(I don't have Xbox One for Forza) or an F1 game, then I'll likely pick something up.

Racing seems to be a genre that started to see great benefit from hardware but I've been nothing but disappointed in most of the more recent ones, sim wise.

a wheel is completely worth it, if you have a PC.