What's wrong with Sharia?

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mayceV

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#1 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts

Okay first off don't point fingers at iran and Saudia they aren't a good representitive of Sharia because 1: Iran is Shiite and Shiites changed the rules of sharia. ( added thngs like timed marriges, changed the Quran and ECT.)

So people of off topic basically what did you hear about sharia that is so crazy?

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IZoMBiEI

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#2 IZoMBiEI
Member since 2002 • 6477 Posts

heres one thing : from wiki "Muslim theology equates apostasy to treason, and in most interpretations of sharia, the penalty for apostasy is death"

fun.

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gameguy6700

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#3 gameguy6700
Member since 2004 • 12197 Posts
Extremely severe and cruel punishments for trivial "crimes", no rights for women, etc.
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SaudiFury

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#4 SaudiFury
Member since 2007 • 8709 Posts

quite a bit....

but umm.. here bro you will need this

While i'm not against Sharia in settling matters of family disputes.

the word Shariah is positvely radioactive to Westerners.

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MAZ85

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#5 MAZ85
Member since 2007 • 1094 Posts
if western laws are Windows , sharia is MacOS
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mayceV

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#6 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts
[QUOTE="IZoMBiEI"]

heres one thing : from wiki "Muslim theology equates apostasy to treason, and in most interpretations of sharia, the penalty for apostasy is death"

fun.

....yeah in 750CE recent studies from ulama decided that Leaving Islam doesn't equate to death. read on the wikipedia page: "Muslim theology equates apostasy to treason, and in most interpretations of sharia, the penalty for apostasy is death. During the time of Muhammad, treason and apostasy were considered one and the same; nowadays, many scholars differentiate between treason and apostasy, believing that the punishment for apostasy is not death, while the punishment for treason is death." don't cherry pick.....
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GazaAli

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#7 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
This will not end well, no no.
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GazaAli

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#8 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
Extremely severe and cruel punishments for trivial "crimes", no rights for women, etc.gameguy6700
I like this etc, it means "The rest of what others say about it" lol
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#9 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
In theory? Nothing that I can identify beyond a few outdated regulations; within the context of the ummah, it makes sense. In practice as it is executed by modern, fundamentalist Muslims? Absolute fail.
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#10 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
How do you solve a problem like Sharia???
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mayceV

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#11 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts
[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

quite a bit....

but umm.. here bro you will need this

While i'm not against Sharia in settling matters of family disputes.

the word Shariah is positvely radioactive to Westerners.

I know that, but I can't seem to see why other than ignorance on the subject an assumptions that Iran= Sharia law. Probably don't realize that there are 3 cantegories of crimes: Qisas: muder 1st, 2nd, degree; manslaughter; battery intentional and unintentional- treated like a civil case rather than criminal with the prosucuting party choosing the punishment ( as long as its deemed reasonable by a judge) Hudud Mentioned in the Quran these usually are for crimes that are extremely obvious and is ment more as a deterent than a code to punish and happen very rarely. Tazir: 3rd party ones not mention in the Quran in other words created by the state. Countries like Iran and the taliban did't apply hudud and go straight to tazir. And if Hudud conviction fails( circumstantial evidence is not allowe because the punishments are the severe ones thats why its usually really hard to convict a highend punihment) ( this is in an ideal sharia country ofcourse) then there can be a tazir punishment issued by the state where circumstanial evidence is allowed and studied studied in front of a jurry ( Just a fun fact the idea of a jurry and judge came from sharia after the crusades)
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mayceV

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#12 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts
This will not end well, no no.GazaAli
In theory? Nothing that I can identify beyond a few outdated regulations; within the context of the ummah, it makes sense. In practice as it is executed by modern, fundamentalist Muslims? Absolute fail.foxhound_fox
:) there yo go. So guys basiclly what I'm saying is Sharia isn't the problem its the governments that don't actually apply Sharia and instead take things out of it make sure it suits thier position then claim that they are an islamic nation based fully of sharia ( hence Iran, Taliban afghanistan, ECT.)
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Serraph105

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#13 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36044 Posts

nothing, it just sound terroristy so it must be awful.

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mayceV

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#14 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts

Extremely severe and cruel punishments for trivial "crimes", no rights for women, etc.gameguy6700
no rights for women? really now? women are supposed to be treated exactly like men on a legal standard. They had the right to own land way before thw west granted them rights to, Don't look at saudia. They aren't an example of Sharia at all. womens rights is to a point where men must spend money on thier wife while she doesn't have to spend any money on them. Also those punishments that you are talking about: hudud ones, have very high standards that make the conviction inevitable. you can't accuse someone of a hudud crime unless its the most obvious thing ever. If hudud isn't met then it goes to tazir which is the state court system which has less harsh punishments with circumstanicial evidence allowed.

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LJS9502_basic

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#15 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178855 Posts
I disagree with it......the penalties are far too severe and the government should not be involved in personal matters.
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DroidPhysX

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#16 DroidPhysX
Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts

Muslims & leftists vs. rightists & Christians.

This is going to be an awesome thread.

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Frame_Dragger

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#17 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
[QUOTE="GazaAli"]This will not end well, no no.mayceV
In theory? Nothing that I can identify beyond a few outdated regulations; within the context of the ummah, it makes sense. In practice as it is executed by modern, fundamentalist Muslims? Absolute fail.foxhound_fox
:) there yo go. So guys basiclly what I'm saying is Sharia isn't the problem its the governments that don't actually apply Sharia and instead take things out of it make sure it suits thier position then claim that they are an islamic nation based fully of sharia ( hence Iran, Taliban afghanistan, ECT.)

Yeah well, you can choose to ignore such things as use of Takfir to ostracize or even give leave to harm people as a "blip", becuase it's true that it's made clear that's the wrong way. On the other hand, you could look at how such accusations are made historically... not a lot of spears stopped at Kafir throats upon a declaration of acceptance of Islam. If you have a system of law which has no history of being enforced in the manner it describes for any signiifcant length of time then there is something wrong.

It's possible to make this same argument about many things, and I'd say you'd be right there too. So, what's wrong with Sharia?... in practice it doesn't seem to work as intended, written, or interpreted in Hadith.
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Kcube

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#18 Kcube
Member since 2003 • 25398 Posts
This is what happens when you let "god" make up the rules...Always leads to women having no rights.
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Frame_Dragger

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#19 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
I disagree with it......the penalties are far too severe and the government should not be involved in personal matters.LJS9502_basic
...Which is the other end... Lex Talionis is something we should be getting past as a species, not seeking a return to. I find the practice of Lex Talionis in any system inexcusable, including Sharia.
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ScreamDream

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#20 ScreamDream
Member since 2006 • 3953 Posts

I disagree with it......the penalties are far too severe and the government should not be involved in personal matters.LJS9502_basic

Sometimes the governemt does not get involved. It is similiar to what we have as lynchings years ago.

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mayceV

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#22 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts

What is wrong with burning Qurans? My house is a bit cold and I'm out of firewood...PWSteal_Ldpinch
does't really matter if you aren't muslim lol

( its disrespectful towards Islam and very hated as it is a clear abatment of muslim's holy book)

but again to you you'd probably see it as another book.

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DroidPhysX

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#23 DroidPhysX
Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts
[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]What is wrong with burning Qurans? My house is a bit cold and I'm out of firewood...mayceV
does't really matter if you aren't muslim lol

Unless you have a unhealthy hatred for the islamic religion
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#24 PWSteal_Ldpinch
Member since 2011 • 1172 Posts
[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]What is wrong with burning Qurans? My house is a bit cold and I'm out of firewood...mayceV
does't really matter if you aren't muslim lol

Clearly it mattered for a mob in Afghanistan...
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Kcube

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#25 Kcube
Member since 2003 • 25398 Posts
[QUOTE="mayceV"][QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]What is wrong with burning Qurans? My house is a bit cold and I'm out of firewood...DroidPhysX
does't really matter if you aren't muslim lol

Unless you have a unhealthy hatred for the islamic religion

Looks unhealthy to me.
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mayceV

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#27 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts
[QUOTE="mayceV"][QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]What is wrong with burning Qurans? My house is a bit cold and I'm out of firewood...PWSteal_Ldpinch
does't really matter if you aren't muslim lol

Clearly it mattered for a mob in Afghanistan...

( its disrespectful towards Islam and very hated as it is a clear abatment of muslim's holy book) but again to you you'd probably see it as another book. just to clarify. Its forbidden because its considered looking down on Islam. Disposal of a worn out Quran is either through burrying it or weighing it down in a river or running water I think.
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#28 DroidPhysX
Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts
[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="mayceV"] does't really matter if you aren't muslim lol

Unless you have a unhealthy hatred for the islamic religion

Hatred for ignorance is always healthy.

I find this statement to be very ironic.
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PWSteal_Ldpinch

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#29 PWSteal_Ldpinch
Member since 2011 • 1172 Posts
[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Unless you have a unhealthy hatred for the islamic religion

Hatred for ignorance is always healthy.

I find this statement to be very ironic.

how so?
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Frame_Dragger

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#30 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Unless you have a unhealthy hatred for the islamic religionDroidPhysX
Hatred for ignorance is always healthy.

I find this statement to be very ironic.

The best quote I've heard about hatred: " Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated." (George Bernard Shaw). Nothing healthy about that... +1 for you droid.

@mayceV: ...And if it's a Muslim doing the desecration, or Kafir? It's not so much a toleance for those of us who are not Muslim, we habir, as it is that nothing we do is of import until we come to Islam, or are made Dhimmi.

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mayceV

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#31 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"] Hatred for ignorance is always healthy.Frame_Dragger

I find this statement to be very ironic.

The best quote I've heard about hatred: " Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated." (George Bernard Shaw). Nothing healthy about that... +1 for you droid.

@mayceV: ...And if it's a Muslim doing the desecration, or Kafir? It's not so much a toleance for those of us who are not Muslim, we habir, as it is that nothing we do is of import until we come to Islam, or are made Dhimmi.

sorry I'm having a hard time understanding your question, dhimmi, get full rights in return of a small tax 9 it was about 1% of annual income ( muslims have to pay more than that for the yearly Zakkat. Also at first it was just Chrisitians and Jews that were allowed the contract but eventually the Fiqh put the term upon all non muslims outside of the middle east. There is no distinction other than the jizya tax.
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ferrari2001

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#32 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts
Well first off, if you look at oh.. all of human history, when religion becomes and integral part of government bad s#$% happens.
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Frame_Dragger

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#33 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
[QUOTE="mayceV"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]

I find this statement to be very ironic.DroidPhysX

The best quote I've heard about hatred: " Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated." (George Bernard Shaw). Nothing healthy about that... +1 for you droid.

@mayceV: ...And if it's a Muslim doing the desecration, or Kafir? It's not so much a toleance for those of us who are not Muslim, we habir, as it is that nothing we do is of import until we come to Islam, or are made Dhimmi.

sorry I'm having a hard time understanding your question, dhimmi, get full rights in return of a small tax 9 it was about 1% of annual income ( muslims have to pay more than that for the yearly Zakkat. Also at first it was just Chrisitians and Jews that were allowed the contract but eventually the Fiqh put the term upon all non muslims outside of the middle east. There is no distinction other than the jizya tax.

I was trying to creatively illustrate the ways in which Islam distinguishes between "apostates", unbelievers in the realm of war, and those Abrahamic religions which would be under Sharia rule. Of course, beyond the tax and inabiliity to benefit from Zakat, is that the freedom to practice one's own laws and customs is restricted under the umbrella of Sharia. Some people would prefer not to submit themselves to that, or Lex Talionis in the context of Sharia's criminal justice system.
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mayceV

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#34 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts
Well first off, if you look at oh.. all of human history, when religion becomes and integral part of government bad s#$% happens. ferrari2001
so tell me why the islamic empire was a massive super power durring the dark ages. and how countless scientific advancments were made durring that time- many of which where built upon durring the enlightenment period. Islam didn't slow anything down infact when people stopped following it in the region, the advancments and general strength of the people stopped. so if i look at history its because Shrai stopped that the Middle east collpased into itslef.
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#35 PWSteal_Ldpinch
Member since 2011 • 1172 Posts
The best quote I've heard about hatred: " Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated." (George Bernard Shaw). Frame_Dragger
Nice quote. Here are five more, although I'm not sure about their relevance.

"You hate someone whom you really wish to love, but whom you cannot love. Perhaps he himself prevents you. That is a disguised form of love." Sri Chinmoy "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott "Those who hate most fervently must have once loved deeply; those who want to deny the world must have once embraced what they now set on fire." Kurt Tucholsky "When we don't know who to hate, we hate ourselves." Chuck Palahniuk "We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." Jonathan Swift

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Frame_Dragger

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#36 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]Well first off, if you look at oh.. all of human history, when religion becomes and integral part of government bad s#$% happens. mayceV
so tell me why the islamic empire was a massive super power durring the dark ages. and how countless scientific advancments were made durring that time- many of which where built upon durring the enlightenment period. Islam didn't slow anything down infact when people stopped following it in the region, the advancments and general strength of the people stopped. so if i look at history its because Shrai stopped that the Middle east collpased into itslef.

You're not going to like it if someone just says, "good timing" will you? The decline of one empire left room for the rise of another, and upon the rise of other empires another declines... and here we are. Its not a lack Sharia, it was having land gobbled up by colonial powers. History is replete with the rise and fall of empires.... Islam is just another in the list, and I think we can agree that list continues to grow as long as empires are forged by humans.
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black_cat19

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#37 black_cat19
Member since 2006 • 8212 Posts

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]This will not end well, no no.mayceV
In theory? Nothing that I can identify beyond a few outdated regulations; within the context of the ummah, it makes sense. In practice as it is executed by modern, fundamentalist Muslims? Absolute fail.foxhound_fox
:) there yo go. So guys basiclly what I'm saying is Sharia isn't the problem its the governments that don't actually apply Sharia and instead take things out of it make sure it suits thier position then claim that they are an islamic nation based fully of sharia ( hence Iran, Taliban afghanistan, ECT.)

Yeah, just like one could argue the message of Christ and the bible weren't the problem in the times of the Inquisition, but that's not the point.

Whatever the "true" message or intention of a religious doctrine may be is irrelevant when the people in charge of said doctrine (be it the Catholic Church or in this case extremist Immahms or whatever they're called) abuse their power and tell everyone under their control that it's ok to treat women like animals and kill homosexuals and apostates on sight.

In my case, the biggest problem I have with Sharia is that I'm not religious, and therefore do not wish to be governed by religious laws.

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KC_Hokie

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#38 KC_Hokie
Member since 2006 • 16099 Posts
It's law based on religion.
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mayceV

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#39 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts
[QUOTE="mayceV"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"]Well first off, if you look at oh.. all of human history, when religion becomes and integral part of government bad s#$% happens. Frame_Dragger
so tell me why the islamic empire was a massive super power durring the dark ages. and how countless scientific advancments were made durring that time- many of which where built upon durring the enlightenment period. Islam didn't slow anything down infact when people stopped following it in the region, the advancments and general strength of the people stopped. so if i look at history its because Shrai stopped that the Middle east collpased into itslef.

You're not going to like it if someone just says, "good timing" will you? The decline of one empire left room for the rise of another, and upon the rise of other empires another declines... and here we are. Its not a lack Sharia, it was having land gobbled up by colonial powers. History is replete with the rise and fall of empires.... Islam is just another in the list, and I think we can agree that list continues to grow as long as empires are forged by humans.

That was some extremely good timing then, For 500 years there was a formal Islamic empire in which the people practiced islam and Sharia Law and were on top of the world. Then another empire rises up the ottoman which was another Empire governed by Islamic thought that was also a massive super power that also happened to die down when the caliphate became weak and tried to westernize. So honestly I think there's something that was right with Sharia. I mean it governed many long lasting powerful empires ( look at the empires in India too ) and when the faith got weak in the system and was changed altered or faded the entire epire collapsed. i mean Sharia had something going up until the 1700's when the ottomans began declining....due to again the weaking of faith in the system.
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Harisemo

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#40 Harisemo
Member since 2010 • 4133 Posts

nothing

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mrbojangles25

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#41 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58398 Posts

what's wrong with it? How about the fact that it influences people's and government's every day lives, whether they want it to or not.

At its core, I am sure it is like any religion; it is perfectly fine practiced by the individual and among like-minded people. Religion is only a problem when thrust onto others or incorporated into government, i.e. cutting off a thieve's hands, stoning an unfaithful wife, etc.

I apply this to all religious, though; in short, keep it to yourself and your place of worship, dont bring it out into the world.

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#42 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="mayceV"] so tell me why the islamic empire was a massive super power durring the dark ages. and how countless scientific advancments were made durring that time- many of which where built upon durring the enlightenment period. Islam didn't slow anything down infact when people stopped following it in the region, the advancments and general strength of the people stopped. so if i look at history its because Shrai stopped that the Middle east collpased into itslef.mayceV
You're not going to like it if someone just says, "good timing" will you? The decline of one empire left room for the rise of another, and upon the rise of other empires another declines... and here we are. Its not a lack Sharia, it was having land gobbled up by colonial powers. History is replete with the rise and fall of empires.... Islam is just another in the list, and I think we can agree that list continues to grow as long as empires are forged by humans.

That was some extremely good timing then, For 500 years there was a formal Islamic empire in which the people practiced islam and Sharia Law and were on top of the world. Then another empire rises up the ottoman which was another Empire governed by Islamic thought that was also a massive super power that also happened to die down when the caliphate became weak and tried to westernize. So honestly I think there's something that was right with Sharia. I mean it governed many long lasting powerful empires ( look at the empires in India too ) and when the faith got weak in the system and was changed altered or faded the entire epire collapsed. i mean Sharia had something going up until the 1700's when the ottomans began declining....due to again the weaking of faith in the system.

The rise of an empire coinciding with teh fall of Rome's influence and a massive decline in Europe? Yeah, it was genuinely epic timing; arguably if it hadn't been an Islamic empire, some other group would have taken that room and worked with it. In fact, it's hard to imagine such a vacuum NOT being exploited for gain... that would be inhuman. You can blame everything on the strength of faith and adherence to Sharia, ignoring every other historical factor, I personally don't mind. The more objective reality has little to do with religion at all, and far more to do with the rise of Easter Europe and its move to the west, the recovery of europe from the dark ages, etc.
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#43 LaytonsCat
Member since 2010 • 3652 Posts

Theres nothing at all wrong with Shaia. Its all in how its interpreted

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turtlethetaffer

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#44 turtlethetaffer
Member since 2009 • 18973 Posts

There are absolutley brutal punishments for the smallest of things, plus women are screwed out of any rights they may have had.

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thattotally

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#45 thattotally
Member since 2008 • 3842 Posts

I'm curious guys, what rights are women being screwed out of? It's always insteresting to see when a

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deactivated-5806da829a153

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#46 deactivated-5806da829a153
Member since 2011 • 93 Posts

Sharia is a dictatorial and oppressive system where there is no freedom to do anything. That's what wrong with it.

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Frame_Dragger

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#47 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts

Theres nothing at all wrong with Shaia. Its all in how its interpreted

LaytonsCat

So you believe in lex talionis?

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OrkHammer007

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#48 OrkHammer007
Member since 2006 • 4753 Posts

I dated Sharia in high school... worst two weeks of my life. *shudders*

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ghoklebutter

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#50 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

I'm curious guys, what rights are women being screwed out of? It's always insteresting to see when a

thattotally
1. A woman's testimony is half of that of a man 2. Women receive half the share of inheritance given to men (difficult for women, especially widows, who want to financially support a family). 3. Subordination of wifes by husbands