What's wrong with Sharia?

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

[QUOTE="zAhMaDz"]

So you think Islam has more influence on these sexist laws (which completely contradict sayings of Muhammad as well as the Quran) rather than the fact that society in Saudi Arabia has long been patriarchal?

zAhMaDz

Can't we be realistic and say both? Islam does have an effect on Saudi Arabia, to an extremely large extent. Like I said, its naive to think otherwise. Its a theocracy.

[QUOTE="zAhMaDz"][QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

Can't we be realistic and say both? Islam does have an effect on Saudi Arabia, to an extremely large extent. Like I said, its naive to think otherwise. Its a theocracy.

HoolaHoopMan

I'm sure millions Christians, Jews, athiests, etc. would disagree with me too. What's your point? No country is a good representation of what Islam represents. Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. all fuse their own cultural beliefs and create their own version of Islam, which is not the same Islam in the Quran. Once again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the reason why most Muslim nations seem to have sexist laws is because of the influence of their cultural history (long, before Islam), rather than Islam itself.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Care to name a few? You know, to examine the countries and all.Victorious_Fize

^ are you implying Saudi Arabia is actually Islamic and does not utilize the religion in a hypocritical sense to capture the demographic for Al Saud to stay in charge?

In a true islamic country, would the law allow a women to be a prostitute?

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"][QUOTE="zAhMaDz"] It's pretty obvious that all laws that are sexist completely contradict what is said in the Quran as women are considered equal to men. It's supported in countless verses in the Quran, i'm sure you wouldn't have trouble finding any. So, isn't it naive to completely ignore what is actually said in the Quran and then base your arguments on a country that, let's be honest, is an extremely poor representation of Islam itself?zAhMaDz

I'm sure millions Christians, Jews, athiests, etc. would disagree with me too. What's your point? No country is a good representation of what Islam represents. Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. all fuse their own cultural beliefs and create their own version of Islam, which is not the same Islam in the Quran. Once again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the reason why most Muslim nations seem to have sexist laws is because of the influence of their cultural history (long, before Islam), rather than Islam itself.

I'm sure millions Christians, Jews, athiests, etc. would disagree with me too. What's your point? No country is a good representation of what Islam represents. Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. all fuse their own cultural beliefs and create their own version of Islam, which is not the same Islam in the Quran. Once again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the reason why most Muslim nations seem to have sexist laws is because of the influence of their cultural history (long, before Islam), rather than Islam itself.

zAhMaDz

And that cultural history is predominately influenced by Islam. Cultures are shaped, birthed, and evolve from the beliefs and customs of the people, and people's customs and beliefs are influenced by their religion.

You cannot separate the two completely.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"] You're first example, Saudi Arabia. Do I really need to elaborate or will you actually try and defend their laws restricting women? HoolaHoopMan

^ are you implying Saudi Arabia is actually Islamic and does not utilize the religion in a hypocritical sense to capture the demographic for Al Saud to stay in charge?

Tempted to ask about rights of gays

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"] You're first example, Saudi Arabia. Do I really need to elaborate or will you actually try and defend their laws restricting women? Harisemo

^ are you implying Saudi Arabia is actually Islamic and does not utilize the religion in a hypocritical sense to capture the demographic for Al Saud to stay in charge?

In a true islamic country, would the law allow a women to be a prostitute?

No.

Tempted to ask about rights of gays

DroidPhysX

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

^ are you implying Saudi Arabia is actually Islamic and does not utilize the religion in a hypocritical sense to capture the demographic for Al Saud to stay in charge?

Victorious_Fize

In a true islamic country, would the law allow a women to be a prostitute?

No.

Then in Islam women is not free.

Bringing out the association fallacy a bit early too it seems. But you're right, Islam is foreign to "gender equality" in general, I think we have a gender problem, but it's definitely not because of apparent inequality, it's the apparent inequality of men over women. There are plenty of factors for this. In any rate, would you like to show me the verses that support this inequality in the fashion Saudi Arabia employs?Victorious_Fize

What, you want me to quote sexist verses from the Quaran now? Its in the same ring with the Bible and Torah, there are plenty of sexist verses that people will use to justify laws limiting the freedom of women.

But I can already tell you the outcome, you'll simply dismiss them or state that they're being interpretted incorrectly. Not 'True' Islam right?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the texts supporting the Abrahamic religions contain some pretty sexist stuff.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Tempted to ask about rights of gays

Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Tempted to ask about rights of gays

Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Bringing out the association fallacy a bit early too it seems. But you're right, Islam is foreign to "gender equality" in general, I think we have a gender problem, but it's definitely not because of apparent inequality, it's the apparent inequality of men over women. There are plenty of factors for this. In any rate, would you like to show me the verses that support this inequality in the fashion Saudi Arabia employs?HoolaHoopMan

What, you want me to quote sexist verses from the Quaran now? Its in the same ring with the Bible and Torah, there are plenty of sexist verses that people will use to justify laws limiting the freedom of women.

But I can already tell you the outcome, you'll simply dismiss them or state that they're being interpretted incorrectly. Not 'True' Islam right?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the texts supporting the Abrahamic religions contain some pretty sexist stuff.

No, I want some from the Quran, not the Torah nor Bible, I don't want what you consider to be sexist or not, I want verses specifically supporting the example you used as an Islamic tenet. And yes, I will dismiss them if they are not valid or taken out of context. I've seen that a few times.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Tempted to ask about rights of gays

DroidPhysX

No, I want some from the Quran, not the Torah nor Bible, I don't want what you consider to be sexist or not, I want verses specifically supporting the example you used as an Islamic tenet. And yes, I will dismiss them if they are not valid or taken out of context. I've seen that a few times.

Victorious_Fize

Quran says women should be obedient to their husbands. sexist stuff right there.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

In a true islamic country, would the law allow a women to be a prostitute?

Harisemo

No.

Then in Islam women is not free.

ok, that was unexpected lol. XD

I doubt a lot of women do it had they had the money not to, so it's pretty immoral alright, regardless of teachings of a specific religion.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

No, I want some from the Quran, not the Torah nor Bible, I don't want what you consider to be sexist or not, I want verses specifically supporting the example you used as an Islamic tenet. And yes, I will dismiss them if they are not valid or taken out of context. I've seen that a few times.

Harisemo

Quran says women should be obedient to their husbands. sexist stuff right there.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

No, I want some from the Quran, not the Torah nor Bible, I don't want what you consider to be sexist or not, I want verses specifically supporting the example you used as an Islamic tenet. And yes, I will dismiss them if they are not valid or taken out of context. I've seen that a few times.

Harisemo

Quran says women should be obedient to their husbands. sexist stuff right there.

And sons/daughters to favour mothers three times their fathers. Pretty unequal.

Yes, is it wrong?Victorious_Fize

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

[QUOTE="zAhMaDz"]

I'm sure millions Christians, Jews, athiests, etc. would disagree with me too. What's your point? No country is a good representation of what Islam represents. Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. all fuse their own cultural beliefs and create their own version of Islam, which is not the same Islam in the Quran. Once again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the reason why most Muslim nations seem to have sexist laws is because of the influence of their cultural history (long, before Islam), rather than Islam itself.

HoolaHoopMan

And that cultural history is predominately influenced by Islam. Cultures are shaped, birthed, and evolve from the beliefs and customs of the people, and people's customs and beliefs are influenced by their religion.

You cannot separate the two completely.

You get bonus points for pointing out the 'No True Sctosman' fallacy in the preceeding post. Irony lives!!!

Bringing out the association fallacy a bit early too it seems. But you're right, Islam is foreign to "gender equality" in general, I think we have a gender problem, but it's definitely not because of apparent inequality, it's the apparent inequality of men over women, and to me, that's an extremely serious issue. There are plenty of factors for this. In any rate, would you like to show me the verses that support this inequality in the fashion Saudi Arabia employs?Victorious_Fize

This may be THE problem with Sharia, as pointed out by others; it mixes religion with the law of the land. Christianity and Judaism both have men ruling women, but neither come packaged wtih a legal framework to take that from the church or synagogue to the streets. Sharia is that conduit through which the bickerings of scholars, the vagueries of culture and the religion itself can move beyond the stage of INFLUENCING a culture, to ruling it. That, is the problem with Sharia. Same with rights for gay people, and other elements of personal expression; it's not JUST women getting the short end of the stick here.

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

No.

Victorious_Fize

Then in Islam women is not free.

ok, that was unexpected lol. XD

I doubt a lot of women do it had they had the money not to, so it's pretty immoral alright, regardless of teachings of a specific religion.

Definitely not "immoral" in west.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Yes, is it wrong?DroidPhysX

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Yes, is it wrong?Victorious_Fize

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

No, I want some from the Quran, not the Torah nor Bible, I don't want what you consider to be sexist or not, I want verses specifically supporting the example you used as an Islamic tenet. And yes, I will dismiss them if they are not valid or taken out of context. I've seen that a few times.

Quran says women should be obedient to their husbands. sexist stuff right there.

And sons/daughters to favour mothers three times their fathers. Pretty unequal.

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

No, I want some from the Quran, not the Torah nor Bible, I don't want what you consider to be sexist or not, I want verses specifically supporting the example you used as an Islamic tenet. And yes, I will dismiss them if they are not valid or taken out of context. I've seen that a few times.

Victorious_Fize

Quran says women should be obedient to their husbands. sexist stuff right there.

And sons/daughters to favour mothers three times their fathers. Pretty unequal.

doesn't change the fact islam is sexist when it comes to husband and wife relation

Yes, is it wrong?Victorious_Fize

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

Quran says women should be obedient to their husbands. sexist stuff right there.

Harisemo

And sons/daughters to favour mothers three times their fathers. Pretty unequal.

doesn't change the fact islam is sexist when it comes to husband and wife relation

My dad's a sheikh, and back when she used to, my mom literally threw knifes at him all the time. Poor mom...

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Yes, is it wrong?Victorious_Fize

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

Quran says punish homosexuals until they repent so no, homosexuality is not punishable by death in Islam though I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure.

And yes, I will dismiss them if they are not valid or taken out of context. I've seen that a few times.

Victorious_Fize

Oh how convenient. How about something easy and simple, perhaps laws pertaining to dress codes?

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most conducive to their purity - (and,) verily, God is aware of all that they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms beyond what may be apparent thereof; hence let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms.(24:30-31)"

Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran33:58–59)

2 simple verses that many countries, cities, persons etc use to justify the requirement of the hijab or similar garment.

Edit: Are they right in their interpretation? Maybe, maybe not. The Quran is however a source that is commonly used in Muslim societies to create and shape law.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

DroidPhysX

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Yes, is it wrong?Victorious_Fize

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

My dad's a sheikh, and back when she used to, my mom literally threw knifes at him all the time. Poor mom...

Victorious_Fize

So? that simply means your mom is not following Quran and this still doesnt change the fact Quran is sexist.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

And yes, I will dismiss them if they are not valid or taken out of context. I've seen that a few times.

HoolaHoopMan

Oh how convenient. How about something easy and simple, perhaps laws pertaining to dress codes?

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most conducive to their purity - (and,) verily, God is aware of all that they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms beyond what may be apparent thereof; hence let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms.(24:30-31)"

Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran33:58–59)

2 simple verses that many countries, cities, persons etc use to justify the requirement of the hijab or similar garment.

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

Homosexuality is a crime that can be punishable by death in its greatest extent in all three religions. What's to debate about that?Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

My dad's a sheikh, and back when she used to, my mom literally threw knifes at him all the time. Poor mom...

Harisemo

So? that simply means your mom is not following Quran and this still doesnt change the fact Quran is sexist.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

My dad's a sheikh, and back when she used to, my mom literally threw knifes at him all the time. Poor mom...

So? that simply means your mom is not following Quran and this still doesnt change the fact Quran is sexist.

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

Victorious_Fize

Its sexist in the framswork from which I was arguing, that people use those verses in order to enact dress codes. I purposely picked something easy and simple, verses that call for women to cover up. At its base, requiring women to dress a certain way (and in many cases mandating it by law) is definately sexist.

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

Victorious_Fize

That is sexist by western standards. Women should be allowed to be naked if they wish

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

That was my point. Interpretations are up for debate.

peter1191

Welcome to third world countries Peter. You should see India or China, I'm sure you'll be in for a real treat.

[QUOTE="peter1191"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Homosexuality is a crime that can be punishable by death in its greatest extent in all three religions. What's to debate about that?Victorious_Fize

Welcome to third world countries Peter. You should see India or China, I'm sure you'll be in for a real treat.

[QUOTE="peter1191"][QUOTE="Harisemo"]

So? that simply means your mom is not following Quran and this still doesnt change the fact Quran is sexist.

Frame_Dragger

I don't understand exactly what you mean, but I was trying to moderate the conversation. Islam has its positive and negative aspects from an outsider's point of view, and that is what I was trying to point out.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

Harisemo

That is sexist by western standards. Women should be allowed to be naked if they wish

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

HoolaHoopMan

Its sexist in the framswork from which I was arguing, that people use those verses in order to enact dress codes. I purposely picked something easy and simple, verses that call for women to cover up. At its base, requiring women to dress a certain way (and in many cases mandating it by law) is definately sexist.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

That is sexist by western standards. Women should be allowed to be naked if they wish

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

DroidPhysX

That is sexist by western standards. Women should be allowed to be naked if they wish

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

Frame_Dragger

That is sexist by western standards. Women should be allowed to be naked if they wish

no I don't

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

That is sexist? :?

It commands both genders to abstain from lustful thinking, women obviously having the burden to wear conservative clothing, oh, you can't see women's hair and revealing clothes, the horror. Which, by the way, reaffirms Islam's stance on AA and special privileges for women in other respects.

Its sexist in the framswork from which I was arguing, that people use those verses in order to enact dress codes. I purposely picked something easy and simple, verses that call for women to cover up. At its base, requiring women to dress a certain way (and in many cases mandating it by law) is definately sexist.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="peter1191"] Quick rebuttal: there is no such thing as "punishable by death" in Christianity. Sure the Jews in the times of ancient Israel had laws to that effect, but Christians do not execute punishment via killing (or at least should not). Although I am not a catholic, I know catholics in the USA oppose abortion and capital punishment and all things related to humans killing or terminating other humans. Homosexuality, while frowned upon by the majority of the christian community, is not punishable by death.Frame_Dragger

Welcome to third world countries Peter. You should see India or China, I'm sure you'll be in for a real treat.

Listen, in the USA there is separation of church and state. What the state does cannot be blamed on the church (aka christians) and vice versa. Furthermore there is a danger in defining a country according to its predominate religious tradition, then applying that generalization to all people of that religion in other countries. I know the USA has done horrific things, but this has nothing to do with christianity.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="Harisemo"]

That is sexist by western standards. Women should be allowed to be naked if they wish

no I don't