Gun Control: freedom or security?

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]

[QUOTE="Ninja-Bear"]Personally i think it has nothing to do with freedom; and in my honest opinion, i really dont think the age-old excuse of 'i need to have a gun so i can rise up against the government if it one day becomes totalitarian' is just silly and out of touch. Ninja-Bear

And I never said that, I said that Dictators pass gun control for a reason, TO PREVENT THEIR PEOPLE FROM RISING UP!

[QUOTE="imaps3fanboy"]

if we ban guns then criminals will just buy them illegally, leading to them ONLY them having a gun with no one else to protect themselves.

htekemerald

Most criminals would not be able to afford it.

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

I'll take both.

The freedom of going about my life not having to be worried about getting shot.

and the security of not having to worry about being shot.

htekemerald

oh yeah, because the government is going to be able to eliminate and remove all guns from our society and not one will fall into the hands of criminals. we can just make guns disappear! way to be naive.

you know, there are other methods of stopping crime other than taking people's rights away. such as their right to defend themselves and their families. its kinda funny becuase the people who are against weed legalization say the same stuff you do. they ignore the fact that their policies produce mroe crime than they stop. things like gun control look good on paper but they would never work in our society and they will only make things worse.

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

oh yeah, because the government is going to be able to eliminate and remove all guns from our society and not one will fall into the hands of criminals. we can just make guns disappear! way to be naive.

arbitor365

you know, there are other methods of stopping crime other than taking people's rights away. such as their right to defend themselves and their families. its kinda funny becuase the people who are against weed legalization say the same stuff you do. they ignore the fact that their policies produce mroe crime than they stop. things like gun control look good on paper but they would never work in our society and they will only make things worse.

Guns harm the people they are used on, pot harms the user. Totally different concepts. One does not choose to get shot (usually), one chooses to take a hit from a joint.

Your logic appears to be that if someone gets shot, they were inevitably going to be murdered via SOME method therefore guns may as well be legal. That's just ridiculous.

Ninja-Bear

How so? If someone is in a state of mind to murder they are going to do it with or without the availability of a gun.

You dont think a fairly large number of people are killed yearly due to spare-of-the-moment shootings, or criminals USING a gun because they get into a tight spot, where they really had no intention of using it?

Ninja-Bear

Criminals using a gun would have one regardless on gun control. Also it has been proven the majority of gun crime is done with illegal firearms so even if there are a few accidents with people who legally hold firearms they aren't even comparable to the gun crime with illegal firearms.

To act like everyone who murders someone else with a gun planned/wanted to do it and would definitely have done it anyway even if guns were illegal either by obtaining an illegal gun or via some other method is just silly. I imagine the vast majority of murders are not pre-meditated.

Ninja-Bear

I never mentioned that, and as you said the vast majority of murders are not pre-meditated, so regardless of the gun or not the offender in his rage is going to kill the victim.

You can't carry a gun outdoor anyway. If a cop sees that, you will be in jail for sure. I pro-freedom, that's the whole point of immigrate to US in the first place. People need to understand US is established with freedom of owning a firearm as the 2nd Admendment. If you want to debate, debate why US founding fathers' believes are flawed by stating their believes properly. Then, you can finally counter their real claim porperly.

magicalclick

[QUOTE="magicalclick"]

You can't carry a gun outdoor anyway. If a cop sees that, you will be in jail for sure. I pro-freedom, that's the whole point of immigrate to US in the first place. People need to understand US is established with freedom of owning a firearm as the 2nd Admendment. If you want to debate, debate why US founding fathers' believes are flawed by stating their believes properly. Then, you can finally counter their real claim porperly.

F1_2004

The Bill of Rights was added three years after the Constitution was ratified due to demands from the Anti-Federalists, who actually didn't like the Constitution all that much.

How many successful western countries with low crime/murder rates allow guns to be carried around freely? Compare to USA... Yeah there are other factors that might influence this, but there's very little to suggest that more guns = more safety.F1_2004

More guns may not = more safety but less guns doesn't = more safety either.

Also the US is another thing by itself, high populated urban poverty areas, drug trade, illegal immigrants and gang banging are the reasons for crime. These are not as huge in other countries simply because they don't have as many people going to them nor do they have to worry about people jumping the border on the levels the US does.

if we ban guns then criminals will just buy them illegally, leading to them ONLY them having a gun with no one else to protect themselves.

imaps3fanboy

You are right in a sense.

But at the same time allowing people to legally have guns in their houses I think is a bad idea because even though that person that has the gun in his house might not be a criminal what happens if he snaps one day and decides to go home and get his gun and kill someone. Just makes it so much easier for a sitituation like this to happen.

I think allowing every citizen to have such a dangerous weapon like a gun is a stupid idea.

[QUOTE="imaps3fanboy"]

if we ban guns then criminals will just buy them illegally, leading to them ONLY them having a gun with no one else to protect themselves.

RAGINGxPONY

You are right in a sense.

But at the same time allowing people to legally have guns in their houses I think is a bad idea because even though that person that has the gun in his house might not be a criminal what happens if he snaps one day and decides to go home and get his gun and kill someone. Just makes it so much easier for a sitituation like this to happen.

I think allowing every citizen to have such a dangerous weapon like a gun is a stupid idea.

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="F1_2004"] oooh big bold lettering! Wasn't the US established on the US Constitution? The 2nd amendment is an amendment to that constitution that happened several years later, probably not even written by the founding fathers.magicalclick

LOL yeah, by his why-so-serious logic, might as well claim 1st Admentment: Freedom of speach and religion happened several years later than constitution. :D

[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]

[QUOTE="imaps3fanboy"]

if we ban guns then criminals will just buy them illegally, leading to them ONLY them having a gun with no one else to protect themselves.

imaps3fanboy

You are right in a sense.

But at the same time allowing people to legally have guns in their houses I think is a bad idea because even though that person that has the gun in his house might not be a criminal what happens if he snaps one day and decides to go home and get his gun and kill someone. Just makes it so much easier for a sitituation like this to happen.

I think allowing every citizen to have such a dangerous weapon like a gun is a stupid idea.

[QUOTE="imaps3fanboy"][QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]

You are right in a sense.

But at the same time allowing people to legally have guns in their houses I think is a bad idea because even though that person that has the gun in his house might not be a criminal what happens if he snaps one day and decides to go home and get his gun and kill someone. Just makes it so much easier for a sitituation like this to happen.

I think allowing every citizen to have such a dangerous weapon like a gun is a stupid idea.

htekemerald

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="magicalclick"]

LOL yeah, by his why-so-serious logic, might as well claim 1st Admentment: Freedom of speach and religion happened several years later than constitution. :D

magicalclick

That's good to know. My memory is bad actually, so I don't remember the full details.

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

[QUOTE="imaps3fanboy"] that means we would have to ban kitchen knifes, fists, or anything that could kill someone. PannicAtack

There is distinction between a hand gun/assault rifle and a low caliber non-automatic hunting rifles, even then I don't usually view sport hunting as valuable to society pass time.

and I don't particularly care about gun 'collectors' anymore than I would about say a snake nut who wants to import some dangerous variety of snake.

it's Ironic when people say gun control increases security since most every country that has instituted it has had a pretty huge rise in crime.

it's Ironic when people say gun control increases security since most every country that has instituted it has had a pretty huge rise in crime.

magnax1

i think guns are cool, let people have them lol. restrictions, obv

[QUOTE="magnax1"]

it's Ironic when people say gun control increases security since most every country that has instituted it has had a pretty huge rise in crime.

htekemerald

I'll find the statistics in a bit, but one example is the gun restrictions in 1996 in Great Britain. Huge rise in crimes since the bill was passed. Mainly gun crimes.

EDIT: Found an article. It says from 97-01 the rate of violent crime doubled.

http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/01/gun-controls-twisted-outcome

There basically is no logical arguement FOR gun control.

heres also one for Australia. And this is only for the 1st year.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

I believe people should have the right to own firearms, but to walk around with them in public is another thing....

[QUOTE="magicalclick"]

You can't carry a gun outdoor anyway. If a cop sees that, you will be in jail for sure. I pro-freedom, that's the whole point of immigrate to US in the first place. People need to understand US is established with freedom of owning a firearm as the 2nd Admendment. If you want to debate, debate why US founding fathers' believes are flawed by stating their believes properly. Then, you can finally counter their real claim porperly.

F1_2004

[QUOTE="magicalclick"]

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"] No no no no no. The Bill of Rights was ratified at the same time as the Constitution. You know why? Because the Anti-Federalists would not have ratified the Constitution if it did not have the Bill of Rights.PannicAtack

LOL yeah, by his why-so-serious logic, might as well claim 1st Admentment: Freedom of speach and religion happened several years later than constitution. :D

I do believe in gun control. Its called using both hands.

[QUOTE="Ninja-Bear"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] which is exactly why almost every most dictators enacted gun control upon coming to power

danwallacefan

And I never said that, I said that Dictators pass gun control for a reason, TO PREVENT THEIR PEOPLE FROM RISING UP!

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]

[QUOTE="Ninja-Bear"] Just no. There has never been a peaceful, organised government which has one day passed gun-control legislation and then gone on to become an evil totalitarian regime thereafter. A dictator may very well stop people getting guns, but they're dictators in the first place, not afterwards. Ninja-Bear

And I never said that, I said that Dictators pass gun control for a reason, TO PREVENT THEIR PEOPLE FROM RISING UP!

Lol, its not whether they'd still rise up, its that they couldn't do crap when they rose up. You can't win a war without guns. Or even start a war.

[QUOTE="Ninja-Bear"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"]

And I never said that, I said that Dictators pass gun control for a reason, TO PREVENT THEIR PEOPLE FROM RISING UP!

magnax1

Lol, its not whether they'd still rise up, its that they couldn't do crap when they rose up. You can't win a war without guns. Or even start a war.

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

[QUOTE="magnax1"]

it's Ironic when people say gun control increases security since most every country that has instituted it has had a pretty huge rise in crime.

magnax1

I'll find the statistics in a bit, but one example is the gun restrictions in 1996 in Great Britain. Huge rise in crimes since the bill was passed. Mainly gun crimes.

EDIT: Found an article. It says from 97-01 the rate of violent crime doubled.

http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/01/gun-controls-twisted-outcome

There basically is no logical arguement FOR gun control.

heres also one for Australia. And this is only for the 1st year.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Right wing gun website vs The British Government Go Go Battle Royal

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb702.pdf

Waiting for real non-anecdotal data on Australia.

[QUOTE="magnax1"]

[QUOTE="htekemerald"] Such as?

htekemerald

I'll find the statistics in a bit, but one example is the gun restrictions in 1996 in Great Britain. Huge rise in crimes since the bill was passed. Mainly gun crimes.

EDIT: Found an article. It says from 97-01 the rate of violent crime doubled.

http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/01/gun-controls-twisted-outcome

There basically is no logical arguement FOR gun control.

heres also one for Australia. And this is only for the 1st year.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Right wing gun website vs The British Government Go Go Battle Royal

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb702.pdf

Waiting for real non-anecdotal data on Australia.

Lol, so they just decided the other statistics are bogus? Maybe its because one side is biased? (Maybe the one that made the bill, and wants to keep its jobs?Just a guess?)

And how the hell is the data on Australia anecdotal?

Guns for everyone who wants one and who undergoes the proper training and legalities to obtain one!Sajedene

[QUOTE="Sajedene"]Guns for everyone who wants one and who undergoes the proper training and legalities to obtain one!RAMRODtheMASTER

It's not like a criminal is going to go on up and register his gun only before commiting a crime.

[QUOTE="RAMRODtheMASTER"][QUOTE="Sajedene"]Guns for everyone who wants one and who undergoes the proper training and legalities to obtain one!Sajedene

In the area of Oregon that I live in. It is perfectly legal for you to carry a handgun as long as it is in plain sight and holstered to your belt. It is not legal to holster it elsewhere and it is very illegal to conceal it without a permit.

City of Portland, OR. however it is illegal to carry a gun in plain sight but still legal to carry with concealed permit.

i say security. i dont get how you can have freedom with a gun

I miss the days when you can just duel someone. You both agree to it. Knowing what you're getting yourself into. EL OH EL.

I'm going shooting tomorrow. pew pew!

Guns for everyone who wants one and who undergoes the proper training and legalities to obtain one!Sajedene

lulz :P

Duels were cool as long as they went fine (i.e. Andrew Jackson was badass). Then there's that occassional lame time where someone like Alexander Hamilton gets killed. What a waste... **** you Aaron Burr.

[QUOTE="Sajedene"]I miss the days when you can just duel someone. You both agree to it. Knowing what you're getting yourself into. EL OH EL.

I'm going shooting tomorrow. pew pew!

Guns for everyone who wants one and who undergoes the proper training and legalities to obtain one!chessmaster1989

lulz :P

Duels were cool as long as they went fine (i.e. Andrew Jackson was badass). Then there's that occassional lame time where someone like Alexander Hamilton gets killed. What a waste... **** you Aaron Burr.