Gun Control: freedom or security?

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Tokugawa77

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#1 Tokugawa77
Member since 2009 • 1554 Posts

based on my sig, most of you probably already know my opinion.

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Engrish_Major

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#2 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
I don't trust most people with a stapler, let alone a firearm. Btw, this is automatically a 20-page thread.
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mfp16

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#3 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
If every citizen carried a gun with them crime would probably be almost zero.
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aransom

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#4 aransom
Member since 2002 • 7408 Posts

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

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Engrish_Major

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#5 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
If every citizen carried a gun with them crime would probably be almost zero.mfp16
Gun accidents would more than make up for the crime reduction.
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FFCYAN

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#6 FFCYAN
Member since 2005 • 4969 Posts

Nothing sercure about not having protection from the Queen of England claiming your land or a crackhead breaking into your home.

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McJugga

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#7 McJugga
Member since 2007 • 9453 Posts

based on my sig, most of you probably already know my opinion.

Tokugawa77
I have signatures disabled.
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Bourbons3

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#8 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts
"Freedom" is all well and good, but you have to be realistic. I don't care how free a country is, if people walk around with revolvers on their hips, I'm not safe.
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DEVILinIRON

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#9 DEVILinIRON
Member since 2006 • 8781 Posts

Yay guns! Guns for everyone! (not sarcasm)

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boxofwonder

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#10 boxofwonder
Member since 2009 • 467 Posts

i'd feel a whole buch safer if everyone had a gun at the ready. just wondering- is that legal in texas?

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Ninja-Bear

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#11 Ninja-Bear
Member since 2010 • 1028 Posts
Personally i think it has nothing to do with freedom; and in my honest opinion, i really dont think the age-old excuse of 'i need to have a gun so i can rise up against the government if it one day becomes totalitarian' is just silly and out of touch.
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Ninja-Bear

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#12 Ninja-Bear
Member since 2010 • 1028 Posts

Nothing sercure about not having protection from the Queen of England claiming your land or a crackhead breaking into your home.

FFCYAN
The Queen of England taking your land is of course a serious and daily threat. Most days when i go home after work, before i go to bed, i have a quick look around my neighbourhood just to keep an eye out for her. She's crafty....
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fenwickhotmail

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#13 fenwickhotmail
Member since 2004 • 7308 Posts
If every citizen carried a gun with them crime would probably be almost zero.mfp16
I guess all the global leaders forgot about this :roll:
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arbitor365

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#14 arbitor365
Member since 2009 • 2726 Posts

gun control will not reduce crime, in fact, it will increase it exponentially. its not a matter of constitutional rights. by giving up your guns you are sacrificing both security and freedom. anyway here is what penn and teller have to say about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXtfR0_roE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtqufzEFCzw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoIKlO20RqM

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theone86

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#15 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

"Freedom" is all well and good, but you have to be realistic. I don't care how free a country is, if people walk around with revolvers on their hips, I'm not safe.Bourbons3

I wholeheartedly agree.

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arbitor365

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#16 arbitor365
Member since 2009 • 2726 Posts

[QUOTE="mfp16"]If every citizen carried a gun with them crime would probably be almost zero.Engrish_Major
Gun accidents would more than make up for the crime reduction.

(cough) habull**** (cough) (cough)

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Espada12

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#17 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

"Freedom" is all well and good, but you have to be realistic. I don't care how free a country is, if people walk around with revolvers on their hips, I'm not safe.Bourbons3

If someone was going to commit crime with a firearm, they would get one gun control or not...

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CRS98

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#18 CRS98
Member since 2004 • 9036 Posts

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]"Freedom" is all well and good, but you have to be realistic. I don't care how free a country is, if people walk around with revolvers on their hips, I'm not safe.theone86

I wholeheartedly agree.

As well as me.
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Espada12

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#19 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

[QUOTE="mfp16"]If every citizen carried a gun with them crime would probably be almost zero.Engrish_Major
Gun accidents would more than make up for the crime reduction.

I rather accident rate goes up and the crime rate goes down.

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JustPlainLucas

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#20 JustPlainLucas
Member since 2002 • 80441 Posts
200 years ago, the citizens of America weren't as stupid as they are today, so as much as I'd like to see freedom of gun ownership, I'm more afraid of being shot by someone who feels he simply has to own a gun then someone who actually needs one.
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arbitor365

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#23 arbitor365
Member since 2009 • 2726 Posts

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]"Freedom" is all well and good, but you have to be realistic. I don't care how free a country is, if people walk around with revolvers on their hips, I'm not safe.Espada12

If someone was going to commit crime with a firearm, they would get one gun control or not...

and all us lawabiding citizens would be

A) totally helpless to an attack

B) seen by criminals as being easy targets

C) unsafe in our own homes

d) all of the above

anyway liberals I have a question for you. what if a 250 pound ex convict broke into my house with a knife. what do you expect me to do in that situation if I have no gun

A) call the police so they can get there in 15 minutes (if im lucky)

B) get in a hand to hand, knife fight with him

C) set up home alone traps

D) get stabbed in the face and have my wife and daughter raped

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Ninja-Bear

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#24 Ninja-Bear
Member since 2010 • 1028 Posts

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]"Freedom" is all well and good, but you have to be realistic. I don't care how free a country is, if people walk around with revolvers on their hips, I'm not safe.Espada12

If someone was going to commit crime with a firearm, they would get one gun control or not...

Only if you appear to believe that every murder/crime is pre-meditated and the person actively plans it out in advance and acquires a firearm.
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Theokhoth

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#25 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
I'd like to know what kind of security we can hope to have if the freedom we focus on is giving guns to everybody.
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coolbeans90

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#26 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

I retain fair amount of both if I am allowed to posses firearms. I arguably lose both with gun control. As cliche as the quote is, I believe that it is appropriate in this context:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
~ Benjamin Franklin

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GhoX

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#27 GhoX
Member since 2006 • 6267 Posts
Since nobody has brought this out yet... Think about the children!
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Espada12

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#28 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]"Freedom" is all well and good, but you have to be realistic. I don't care how free a country is, if people walk around with revolvers on their hips, I'm not safe.Ninja-Bear

If someone was going to commit crime with a firearm, they would get one gun control or not...

Only if you appear to believe that every murder/crime is pre-meditated and the person actively plans it out in advance and acquires a firearm.

If they didn't have an access to a gun they would use something else. For example in england the cops don't worry about guns so much as knives. So either way gun control doesn't solve the problem because the act is going to be carried out one way or the other, but if the VICTIM has a gun legally they can defend themselves or the attacker would at least think twice.

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deactivated-5cf4b2c19c4ab

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#29 deactivated-5cf4b2c19c4ab
Member since 2008 • 17476 Posts
[QUOTE="GhoX"]Since nobody has brought this out yet... Think about the children!

What about them?
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arbitor365

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#30 arbitor365
Member since 2009 • 2726 Posts

you guys disappoint me. statistics mean nothing to you and you think of this so simple-mindedly. "guns = crime" in your mind. well, im not giving up my guns even if they make a law. im not going to let some fatcat liberal a-holes in congress take away my right to protect my own family. I'm not naive enough to assume that the government could successfully remove a substance from our society. they have failed to stop any narcotic or controlled substance from circulating and all it takes is one gun to put a criminal on the streets that will face no resistance from his victims. im not going to live in a world like that. gun control will only hurt individual law abiding citizens and not criminals, and above all, it wont work. On top of that it will produce crime rings that specialize in gun distribution. There is no reason why i, a law abiding citizen, should not have a right to own guns. maybe if our justice system wasnt so weak on crime and maybe if it didnt produce more criminals than it rehibiliated, we would have less of a problem. did anyone stop to think that there is a better method to reducing crime than simply disarming our peaceful citizens and taking away their only means of defense?

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F1_2004

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#31 F1_2004
Member since 2003 • 8009 Posts

based on my sig, most of you probably already know my opinion.

Tokugawa77
Stupid thing for Franklin to say. I guess the prevalence of law and law enforcement in our society (aka giving up freedom to obtain security) means we deserve neither? Makes no sense.
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Ninja-Bear

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#32 Ninja-Bear
Member since 2010 • 1028 Posts

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="Bourbons3"]"Freedom" is all well and good, but you have to be realistic. I don't care how free a country is, if people walk around with revolvers on their hips, I'm not safe.arbitor365

If someone was going to commit crime with a firearm, they would get one gun control or not...

and all us lawabiding citizens would be

A) totally helpless to an attack

B) seen by criminals as being easy targets

C) unsafe in our own homes

And yet, where i live, incidents of gun-toting criminals bursting into peoples homes are more or less non-existent.

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xhellcatx

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#33 xhellcatx
Member since 2006 • 9015 Posts

I believe in our constitutional right to have guns. (Sorry i cant say bear arms without thinking of a bear with arms and i giggle). I believe in this because I simply don't trust the government. Now I am not super ultra paranoid and all that, thinking everything is a conspiracy, but to protect ourselves from our government (if need be), we will need our right to have guns and regain control of the government.

I hunt (yes call me cruel but those deer keep threatening to smash my lil car to bits, and in order to keep the population down, they need to be harvested. Hunting for SPORT i dont agree with, but hunting for control and for food is a good thing in my opinion.... plus venison tastes dang good) and therefore I need a gun. I have several guns... and no, some of them aren't for hunting with, but they are fun to take to the range and target practice with. I wouldnt ever point it at another person, unless that person was pointing a gun at me, my family, or my friends.... but even then it would take a lot for me to do that. pulling the triggers even harder... but... anyways...

I dont really have a stance on carrying a weapon with you while your out -- I carry a buck-knife in my emergency roadside kit, just in case i hit a deer or have an encounter like i had before with a crazy drunk lady who said she was going to kill me :| In the middle of no where and the cops took about a half hr to get to me.... *sigh*

So.. to conclude, guns dont kill people, people kill people. People will kill people with OR without guns. So we get rid of guns, then what happens? People start stabbing eachother, so we get rid of Knives.... well dang it i wanna eat my steak, but NOOOO cause i could kill someone with it. THEN cause we dont have knives, people start killing eachother with baseball bats. Goodbye baseball. Then we start using rocks. .... then we are screwed.

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Ninja-Bear

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#34 Ninja-Bear
Member since 2010 • 1028 Posts

If they didn't have an access to a gun they would use something else. For example in england the cops don't worry about guns so much as knives. So either way gun control doesn't solve the problem because the act is going to be carried out one way or the other, but if the VICTIM has a gun legally they can defend themselves or the attacker would at least think twice.

Espada12

Your logic appears to be that if someone gets shot, they were inevitably going to be murdered via SOME method therefore guns may as well be legal. That's just ridiculous. You dont think a fairly large number of people are killed yearly due to spare-of-the-moment shootings, or criminals USING a gun because they get into a tight spot, where they really had no intention of using it? To act like everyone who murders someone else with a gun planned/wanted to do it and would definitely have done it anyway even if guns were illegal either by obtaining an illegal gun or via some other method is just silly. I imagine the vast majority of murders are not pre-meditated.

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arbitor365

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#36 arbitor365
Member since 2009 • 2726 Posts

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

If someone was going to commit crime with a firearm, they would get one gun control or not...

Ninja-Bear

and all us lawabiding citizens would be

A) totally helpless to an attack

B) seen by criminals as being easy targets

C) unsafe in our own homes

And yet, where i live, incidents of gun-toting criminals bursting into peoples homes are more or less non-existent.

if you live around a big city than they happen quite a bit. it doesnt only apply to break-ins however. it applies to all violent crimes. if you know that person is unarmed, than your only real concern, as a criminal, is covering your tracks. not the actual murder. it basically means that killing becomes easier, with or without a gun. i dont want to be the victim of a criminal's poorly thought out plan.

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htekemerald

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#37 htekemerald
Member since 2004 • 7325 Posts

I'll take both.

The freedom of going about my life not having to be worried about getting shot.

and the security of not having to worry about being shot.

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arbitor365

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#38 arbitor365
Member since 2009 • 2726 Posts

I'll take both.

The freedom of going about my life not having to be worried about getting shot.

and the security of not having to worry about being shot.

htekemerald

oh yeah, because the government is going to be able to eliminate and remove all guns from our society and not one will fall into the hands of criminals. we can just make guns disappear! way to be naive.

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htekemerald

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#39 htekemerald
Member since 2004 • 7325 Posts

[QUOTE="Ninja-Bear"]

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

and all us lawabiding citizens would be

A) totally helpless to an attack

B) seen by criminals as being easy targets

C) unsafe in our own homes

arbitor365

And yet, where i live, incidents of gun-toting criminals bursting into peoples homes are more or less non-existent.

if you live around a big city than they happen quite a bit. it doesnt only apply to break-ins however. it applies to all violent crimes. if you know that person is unarmed, than your only real concern, as a criminal, is covering your tracks. not the actual murder. it basically means that killing becomes easier, with or without a gun. i dont want to be the victim of a criminal's poorly thought out plan.

In Canada it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon, except in very very rare circumstances. Yet all crime in Canada is not any higher than america (in most cases it is significantly lower, the murder rate is vastly lower for instance) Your logic does not compute

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danwallacefan

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#40 danwallacefan
Member since 2008 • 2413 Posts

[QUOTE="mfp16"]If every citizen carried a gun with them crime would probably be almost zero.Engrish_Major
Gun accidents would more than make up for the crime reduction.

The empirical evidence completely supports your position. I mean, certainly gun accidents would go up if more people had guns.

what's that you say? The gun ownership rate has skyrocketed in the past 50 years while the gun-accidents per capita have gone down in the past 50 years? Well I guess we were both wrong

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danwallacefan

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#41 danwallacefan
Member since 2008 • 2413 Posts

Personally i think it has nothing to do with freedom; and in my honest opinion, i really dont think the age-old excuse of 'i need to have a gun so i can rise up against the government if it one day becomes totalitarian' is just silly and out of touch. Ninja-Bear
which is exactly why almost every most dictators enacted gun control upon coming to power

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arbitor365

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#42 arbitor365
Member since 2009 • 2726 Posts

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

[QUOTE="Ninja-Bear"] And yet, where i live, incidents of gun-toting criminals bursting into peoples homes are more or less non-existent.

htekemerald

if you live around a big city than they happen quite a bit. it doesnt only apply to break-ins however. it applies to all violent crimes. if you know that person is unarmed, than your only real concern, as a criminal, is covering your tracks. not the actual murder. it basically means that killing becomes easier, with or without a gun. i dont want to be the victim of a criminal's poorly thought out plan.

In Canada it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon, except in very very rare circumstances. Yet all crime in Canada is not any higher than america (in most cases it is significantly lower, the murder rate is vastly lower for instance) Your logic does not compute

umm you are leaving out something...... what is it??.... oh yes

population density

law enforcement officials per capita

poverty rates

education rates

the entire justice systems of individual countriesand how they handle crime

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danwallacefan

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#43 danwallacefan
Member since 2008 • 2413 Posts

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

if you live around a big city than they happen quite a bit. it doesnt only apply to break-ins however. it applies to all violent crimes. if you know that person is unarmed, than your only real concern, as a criminal, is covering your tracks. not the actual murder. it basically means that killing becomes easier, with or without a gun. i dont want to be the victim of a criminal's poorly thought out plan.

arbitor365

In Canada it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon, except in very very rare circumstances. Yet all crime in Canada is not any higher than america (in most cases it is significantly lower, the murder rate is vastly lower for instance) Your logic does not compute

umm you are leaving out something...... what is it??.... oh yes

population density

law enforcement officials per capita

poverty rates

education rates

the entire justice systems of individual countriesand how they handle crime

Thank you, I think that was very important. Empirically speaking, nobody has ever shown a meaningful correlation between gun control and crime rates. Crime and murder are themselves caused by many other factors besides the presense and availability of a gun (or guns). It has to do with poverty, education or lack thereof, the competency of law enforcement, harsh prison sentences or lack thereof, etc.

Gun control is really an irrelevent issue. Any gun control measures, except possibly maybe a total ban on all guns, will do very little to actually prevent crime.

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imaps3fanboy

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#44 imaps3fanboy
Member since 2009 • 11169 Posts

if we ban guns then criminals will just buy them illegally, leading to them ONLY them having a gun with no one else to protect themselves.

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mfp16

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#45 mfp16
Member since 2006 • 4551 Posts
The irony on the timing of this thread is epic. I am currently disassembling and cleaning my pistols in front of my PC. btw... getting gun oil on your keyboard sucks!
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Ninja-Bear

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#46 Ninja-Bear
Member since 2010 • 1028 Posts

[QUOTE="Ninja-Bear"]Personally i think it has nothing to do with freedom; and in my honest opinion, i really dont think the age-old excuse of 'i need to have a gun so i can rise up against the government if it one day becomes totalitarian' is just silly and out of touch. danwallacefan

which is exactly why almost every most dictators enacted gun control upon coming to power

Just no. There has never been a peaceful, organised government which has one day passed gun-control legislation and then gone on to become an evil totalitarian regime thereafter. A dictator may very well stop people getting guns, but they're dictators in the first place, not afterwards.
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htekemerald

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#47 htekemerald
Member since 2004 • 7325 Posts

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

if you live around a big city than they happen quite a bit. it doesnt only apply to break-ins however. it applies to all violent crimes. if you know that person is unarmed, than your only real concern, as a criminal, is covering your tracks. not the actual murder. it basically means that killing becomes easier, with or without a gun. i dont want to be the victim of a criminal's poorly thought out plan.

arbitor365

In Canada it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon, except in very very rare circumstances. Yet all crime in Canada is not any higher than america (in most cases it is significantly lower, the murder rate is vastly lower for instance) Your logic does not compute

umm you are leaving out something...... what is it??.... oh yes

population density

law enforcement officials per capita

poverty rates

education rates

the entire justice systems of individual countriesand how they handle crime

North American have population densities that are pretty much the same. Yet american cities have much higher murder rates. Play again.

Poverty in Canada 12%. Poverty In america 13%. Insert another quater

Canada Spends less on Education that america. Insert 25 cents to continue

Most consider america's justice system to be stricter than Canadas. Game over.

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htekemerald

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#48 htekemerald
Member since 2004 • 7325 Posts

if we ban guns then criminals will just buy them illegally, leading to them ONLY them having a gun with no one else to protect themselves.

imaps3fanboy

Some criminals may go to extreme and costly lengths to get a gun.

Most criminals would not be able to afford it.

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F1_2004

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#49 F1_2004
Member since 2003 • 8009 Posts
How many successful western countries with low crime/murder rates allow guns to be carried around freely? Compare to USA... Yeah there are other factors that might influence this, but there's very little to suggest that more guns = more safety.
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htekemerald

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#50 htekemerald
Member since 2004 • 7325 Posts

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

I'll take both.

The freedom of going about my life not having to be worried about getting shot.

and the security of not having to worry about being shot.

arbitor365

oh yeah, because the government is going to be able to eliminate and remove all guns from our society and not one will fall into the hands of criminals. we can just make guns disappear! way to be naive.

There are lots of things that we can'y just make dissapear for society, that doesn't mean you should throw your hands up in air and give up.