For all you people who believe in god?

im not arguing that something created this

what i do want to know is

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENS TO A GORILLA OR LION OR FISH WHEN IT DIES??

[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"][QUOTE="brightshadow525"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

Why should anyone make that assumption? If I look around and see no rocks coming at me, why should I act like they are?

elmo90

We're not talking about rocks! We're talking about eternity!

It's the same principle. There is no evidence of X existing, why should I assume it does?

Try looking at it this way:

You look around and see no chicken. There is no evidence. However, there is an egg.

And where do eggs come from?

In order for there to be a creation, there must be a creator.

Even if I were to accept that argument, it doesn't say anything about the 'creator' other than that it exists. Why should I assume that your interpertation is correct without any evidence?

[QUOTE="elmo90"]

Whoa, since when has God threatened anyone? You spout all this nonsense about hell and damnation and how horrible God must be yet it isn't God's doing, it's your own. You chose to die by rejecting God (life). Since God's the giver of life, who are you to say you somehow deserve eternal life while rejecting Him?

This thread was started on purely illogical nonsense.

gameguy6700

You just admitted that God is threatening you. If you don't believe in him he tortures you forever. Sounds like a threat to me.

I admitted nothing, and I said nothing about eternal torture.

I won't misquote you so please do the same.

Besides, if God exists there's no such thing as free will, at least not if God is telling the truth when he says he's omniscient. To have perfect knowledge of the future requires determinism, and determinism and free will are mutually exclusive of each other.

gameguy6700

So point being God creates people knowing full well that they'll be unable to avoid going to hell. gameguy6700

No. You can choose whatever you want. Sure, God knows what you're going to choose, but it's still your choice. He isn't within the realm of time as we are.

And even if you want to argue that we have free will the fact still remains that God sets people up to fail. gameguy6700

Only one type of person can fail, and that's a failure. God doesn't set anyone up, but He doesn't infringe upon anyone either. He doesn't want a bunch of robot children; that would destroy the whole point of free will.

A person born and raised in India or Iran is a lot less likely to ever become a Christian than a person born in America or the UK.

gameguy6700

[QUOTE="elmo90"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"][QUOTE="brightshadow525"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

Why should anyone make that assumption? If I look around and see no rocks coming at me, why should I act like they are?

rinkegekido2110

We're not talking about rocks! We're talking about eternity!

It's the same principle. There is no evidence of X existing, why should I assume it does?

Try looking at it this way:

You look around and see no chicken. There is no evidence. However, there is an egg.

And where do eggs come from?

In order for there to be a creation, there must be a creator.

Even if I were to accept that argument, it doesn't say anything about the 'creator' other than that it exists. Why should I assume that your interpertation is correct without any evidence?

[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"][QUOTE="elmo90"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"][QUOTE="brightshadow525"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

Why should anyone make that assumption? If I look around and see no rocks coming at me, why should I act like they are?

elmo90

We're not talking about rocks! We're talking about eternity!

It's the same principle. There is no evidence of X existing, why should I assume it does?

Try looking at it this way:

You look around and see no chicken. There is no evidence. However, there is an egg.

And where do eggs come from?

In order for there to be a creation, there must be a creator.

Even if I were to accept that argument, it doesn't say anything about the 'creator' other than that it exists. Why should I assume that your interpertation is correct without any evidence?

Not the existence of life, planets, or other natural phenomenon. We were discussing the existence of hell. I'm not dodging, you're going somewhere else entirely.

Why does it bother you what someone else believes? It's a personal choice. Your understanding is skewed. Believing in a God does not mean one doesn't believe in evolution.:roll:LJS9502_basic

true

[QUOTE="gameguy6700"][QUOTE="elmo90"]

Whoa, since when has God threatened anyone? You spout all this nonsense about hell and damnation and how horrible God must be yet it isn't God's doing, it's your own. You chose to die by rejecting God (life). Since God's the giver of life, who are you to say you somehow deserve eternal life while rejecting Him?

This thread was started on purely illogical nonsense.

elmo90

You just admitted that God is threatening you. If you don't believe in him he tortures you forever. Sounds like a threat to me.

I admitted nothing, and I said nothing about eternal torture.

I won't misquote you so please do the same.

Besides, if God exists there's no such thing as free will, at least not if God is telling the truth when he says he's omniscient. To have perfect knowledge of the future requires determinism, and determinism and free will are mutually exclusive of each other.

gameguy6700

So point being God creates people knowing full well that they'll be unable to avoid going to hell. gameguy6700

No. You can choose whatever you want. Sure, God knows what you're going to choose, but it's still your choice. He isn't within the realm of time as we are.

And even if you want to argue that we have free will the fact still remains that God sets people up to fail. gameguy6700

Only one type of person can fail, and that's a failure. God doesn't set anyone up, but He doesn't infringe upon anyone either. He doesn't want a bunch of robot children; that would destroy the whole point of free will.

A person born and raised in India or Iran is a lot less likely to ever become a Christian than a person born in America or the UK.

gameguy6700

1. "who are you to say you somehow deserve eternal life while rejecting Him?" - while you didn't say anything about hell you did pretty much say here that God doesn't allow you to keep living if you don't believe in him. Again, God uses threats. Even if you are just being hypothetical you can't deny that the Bible is filled from cover to cover with God threatening people with hell.

2. No, God being omniscient does destroy free will. If God knows everything he knows the future. He'll know what you'll do. If God is perfect like he claims to be then you can never act in a way that would go against God's knowledge. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that God's knowledge causes us to lose free will, but rather that God's perfect knowledge requires determinism to be true (kind of like how the melting of an ice cube requires the temperature to be over 0 degrees celsius but does not cause the temperature to be that high).

3. If determinism is true then you only have the illusion of free will. You just think you have the ability to choose. It doesn't matter what realm of time God is in, the fact that he can see/exists in the future means that the future already exists. If the future already exists you have no free will.

4 and 5. God does set people up to fail. It's no secret that the religion of your parents or culture is usually what people end up believing for the rest of their lives. If you were born in Iran you would be a Muslim. If you were born in India you'd be Hindu. If you were born in Sweeden you'd probably be an atheist. While people do sometimes convert most never do. It's not stubbornness that's to blame but rather everyone thinks their religion is the right one and all the other ones are false. That and there's other factors. For example, there are some places in the world where if you don't share the same religious views as everyone else you're executed.

Oh, and as for "only fools reject God" - that's a line that cults use. "Only an idiot would reject our religion", "only an evil person would reject our beliefs", etc. The Abhramaic religions, like most other religions on earth, resort to coercion in a desperate attempt to keep believers.

believe what i say or i'll hurt you

very christian

believe what i say or i'll hurt you

very christian

BobSacamento

It is actually.God does this several times in the bible.

some day you will realise that it's not god saying these twisted and illogical things, it's just some guy from the bible days

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Why does it bother you what someone else believes? It's a personal choice. Your understanding is skewed. Believing in a God does not mean one doesn't believe in evolution.:roll:Raged-wolverine

true

I think it was directed more at bible-thumpers.

some day you will realise that it's not god saying these twisted and illogical things, it's just some guy from the bible days

BobSacamento

Exactly, and gods are just creations of man.

right

we wont know till we know

kind of our ultimate goal isn't it? to find out

dont you get it

these people don't operate on "making sense" and "logic" and all that sort of hocus pocus

it's just want they want to believe

and burn all those who don't believe in it

1. "who are you to say you somehow deserve eternal life while rejecting Him?" - while you didn't say anything about hell you did pretty much say here that God doesn't allow you to keep living if you don't believe in him. Again, God uses threats. Even if you are just being hypothetical you can't deny that the Bible is filled from cover to cover with God threatening people with hell. [/QUOTE[

You're just showing that you have no knowledge of the Bible. Indeed, God is so cruel and hateful for not allowing you to keep living:roll: You were dead before you were created, and to the grave you will return without Christ. This is not a hard concept, and no cruelty or threatening is involved. You did nothing to deserve the life you live, so get over it.

[QUOTE="gameguy6700"]

2. No, God being omniscient does destroy free will. If God knows everything he knows the future. He'll know what you'll do. If God is perfect like he claims to be then you can never act in a way that would go against God's knowledge. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that God's knowledge causes us to lose free will, but rather that God's perfect knowledge requires determinism to be true (kind of like how the melting of an ice cube requires the temperature to be over 0 degrees celsius but does not cause the temperature to be that high). gameguy6700

God's omniscience only destroys free will reletive to Him. Since you have no knowledge, there is no infringement on you, therefore your free will is perfectly in tact. Of course at the highest level of being (God) there is determinism, and a laid out future. He knows what you're going to choose, but you still choose it.

3. If determinism is true then you only have the illusion of free will. You just think you have the ability to choose. It doesn't matter what realm of time God is in, the fact that he can see/exists in the future means that the future already exists. If the future already exists you have no free will. gameguy6700

4 and 5. God does set people up to fail. It's no secret that the religion of your parents or culture is usually what people end up believing for the rest of their lives. If you were born in Iran you would be a Muslim. If you were born in India you'd be Hindu. If you were born in Sweeden you'd probably be an atheist. While people do sometimes convert most never do. It's not stubbornness that's to blame but rather everyone thinks their religion is the right one and all the other ones are false. That and there's other factors. For example, there are some places in the world where if you don't share the same religious views as everyone else you're executed. gameguy6700

I can't say I know why you were born in the country you're in, that's beyond me. What I do know is that the world hungers for the truth, salvation, freedom, and purpose. In the religions of the world, these things have to be worked for and earned. But with the way of Jesus Christ, it is given freely. It is a completely radical idea of humbling one's self and admiting that I can't do this on my own. Having done some mission work, I've seen the amazing impact this has on people of many different backgrounds and beliefs.

Oh, and as for "only fools reject God" - that's a line that cults use. "Only an idiot would reject our religion", "only an evil person would reject our beliefs", etc. The Abhramaic religions, like most other religions on earth, resort to coercion in a desperate attempt to keep believers.

gameguy6700

Think what you wish, it won't change anything. There's no desperate attempt here... it's just sort of... spreads. Oh noez:shock:

Psalm 14:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

1. "who are you to say you somehow deserve eternal life while rejecting Him?" - while you didn't say anything about hell you did pretty much say here that God doesn't allow you to keep living if you don't believe in him. Again, God uses threats. Even if you are just being hypothetical you can't deny that the Bible is filled from cover to cover with God threatening people with hell. gameguy6700

You're just showing that you have no knowledge of the Bible. Indeed, God is so cruel and hateful for not allowing you to keep living:roll: You were dead before you were created, and to the grave you will return without Christ. This is not a hard concept, and no cruelty or threatening is involved. You did nothing to deserve the life you live, so get over it.

2. No, God being omniscient does destroy free will. If God knows everything he knows the future. He'll know what you'll do. If God is perfect like he claims to be then you can never act in a way that would go against God's knowledge. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that God's knowledge causes us to lose free will, but rather that God's perfect knowledge requires determinism to be true (kind of like how the melting of an ice cube requires the temperature to be over 0 degrees celsius but does not cause the temperature to be that high). gameguy6700

God's omniscience only destroys free will reletive to Him. Since you have no knowledge, there is no infringement on you, therefore your free will is perfectly in tact. Of course at the highest level of being (God) there is determinism, and a laid out future. He knows what you're going to choose, but you still choose it.

3. If determinism is true then you only have the illusion of free will. You just think you have the ability to choose. It doesn't matter what realm of time God is in, the fact that he can see/exists in the future means that the future already exists. If the future already exists you have no free will. gameguy6700

You're still trying to put God on your level. If a friend knew what you were going to do, beyond the shadow of a doubt, trully you would have to do that. However God is the very foundation of reality. He knew everything about you before you were even born, and yes He knows the future you will choose for yourself.

4 and 5. God does set people up to fail. It's no secret that the religion of your parents or culture is usually what people end up believing for the rest of their lives. If you were born in Iran you would be a Muslim. If you were born in India you'd be Hindu. If you were born in Sweeden you'd probably be an atheist. While people do sometimes convert most never do. It's not stubbornness that's to blame but rather everyone thinks their religion is the right one and all the other ones are false. That and there's other factors. For example, there are some places in the world where if you don't share the same religious views as everyone else you're executed. gameguy6700

I can't say I know why you were born in the country you're in, that's beyond me. What I do know is that the world hungers for the truth, salvation, freedom, and purpose. In the religions of the world, these things have to be worked for and earned. But with the way of Jesus Christ, it is given freely. It is a completely radical idea of humbling one's self and admiting that I can't do this on my own. Having done some mission work, I've seen the amazing impact this has on people of many different backgrounds and beliefs.

Oh, and as for "only fools reject God" - that's a line that cults use. "Only an idiot would reject our religion", "only an evil person would reject our beliefs", etc. The Abhramaic religions, like most other religions on earth, resort to coercion in a desperate attempt to keep believers.

gameguy6700

Think what you wish, it won't change anything. There's no desperate attempt here... it's just sort of... spreads. Oh noez:shock:

Psalm 14:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

I usually never get into these type of threads but

We are all sinners we are all damned to go to hell. We all should be punished. Jesus was a loop hole and the only way to make it into heaven. That is why there is only one choice!

I believe because my parents made me go to church for 15 years out of my life. I have read and studied many othere religions and christianity makes the most sense to ME. I believe in a lot of ideals other religions have but I chose to follow the Jesus man who died on the cross.

I don't care if you believe in this or not but christians are supposed to try and convert people so they don't burn in hell. How is that a bad thing?

you can't free a mind from the matrix this late in life brother

give it up

I believe in God, not religion :)

Its a personal matter and should be that way....If all the people understood this, the world will be a better place imo

you can't free a mind from the matrix this late in life brother

give it up

BobSacamento

not really

i think they've done enough to change anyones mind who wasnt hopelessly faithful

we're THIS close to finding organic life out there

even tho its a certainty that theres already been, and will be life out there

well...

we've already proven that snakes can't talk....check

we've already proven that the earth isn't 7000 years old....check

we've proven that we evolved to where we are and didn't just appear one day....check

that's pretty much all i know from the bible that i can recall right now

[QUOTE="gameguy6700"]

1. "who are you to say you somehow deserve eternal life while rejecting Him?" - while you didn't say anything about hell you did pretty much say here that God doesn't allow you to keep living if you don't believe in him. Again, God uses threats. Even if you are just being hypothetical you can't deny that the Bible is filled from cover to cover with God threatening people with hell. elmo90

You're just showing that you have no knowledge of the Bible. Indeed, God is so cruel and hateful for not allowing you to keep living:roll: You were dead before you were created, and to the grave you will return without Christ. This is not a hard concept, and no cruelty or threatening is involved. You did nothing to deserve the life you live, so get over it.

2. No, God being omniscient does destroy free will. If God knows everything he knows the future. He'll know what you'll do. If God is perfect like he claims to be then you can never act in a way that would go against God's knowledge. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that God's knowledge causes us to lose free will, but rather that God's perfect knowledge requires determinism to be true (kind of like how the melting of an ice cube requires the temperature to be over 0 degrees celsius but does not cause the temperature to be that high). gameguy6700

God's omniscience only destroys free will reletive to Him. Since you have no knowledge, there is no infringement on you, therefore your free will is perfectly in tact. Of course at the highest level of being (God) there is determinism, and a laid out future. He knows what you're going to choose, but you still choose it.

3. If determinism is true then you only have the illusion of free will. You just think you have the ability to choose. It doesn't matter what realm of time God is in, the fact that he can see/exists in the future means that the future already exists. If the future already exists you have no free will. gameguy6700

You're still trying to put God on your level. If a friend knew what you were going to do, beyond the shadow of a doubt, trully you would have to do that. However God is the very foundation of reality. He knew everything about you before you were even born, and yes He knows the future you will choose for yourself.

4 and 5. God does set people up to fail. It's no secret that the religion of your parents or culture is usually what people end up believing for the rest of their lives. If you were born in Iran you would be a Muslim. If you were born in India you'd be Hindu. If you were born in Sweeden you'd probably be an atheist. While people do sometimes convert most never do. It's not stubbornness that's to blame but rather everyone thinks their religion is the right one and all the other ones are false. That and there's other factors. For example, there are some places in the world where if you don't share the same religious views as everyone else you're executed. gameguy6700

I can't say I know why you were born in the country you're in, that's beyond me. What I do know is that the world hungers for the truth, salvation, freedom, and purpose. In the religions of the world, these things have to be worked for and earned. But with the way of Jesus Christ, it is given freely. It is a completely radical idea of humbling one's self and admiting that I can't do this on my own. Having done some mission work, I've seen the amazing impact this has on people of many different backgrounds and beliefs.

Oh, and as for "only fools reject God" - that's a line that cults use. "Only an idiot would reject our religion", "only an evil person would reject our beliefs", etc. The Abhramaic religions, like most other religions on earth, resort to coercion in a desperate attempt to keep believers.

gameguy6700

Think what you wish, it won't change anything. There's no desperate attempt here... it's just sort of... spreads. Oh noez:shock:

Psalm 14:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

1. I have no knowledge of the Bible? Tell me where it says that God just doesn't let you keep living. The bible makes it very clear that you either go to heaven or hell.

2. You just don't get it do you? You don't have free will if the future already exists. Your fate has been decided. The decisions you make have already been made. While you do decide to make them you can never choose a decision that conflicts with your destiny.

3. It doesn't matter what being knows the future. God, your friend, your psychic cat...if it is possible to see the future then determinism is true and free will is an illusion. It doesn't matter who sees it or how. The only way you can have free will is if the future does not exist. And if the future does not exist then no being can know anything about it.

4. All you did was say "Christianity is better". That's doesn't rebuke what I said.

5. What do you mean it "spreads"? What spreads? Anyway, the fact of the matter is that Christianity is filled with coercion techniques. You'll go to hell if you don't do exactly what the Bible says. You go to hell if you don't believe. You're a fool if you don't believe. Satan is tricking you if you don't believe.

This coercion ties into something you said earlier about God not wanting puppets for worshippers. You say that God wants people to truly love him yet he uses so many threats and punishments that he may as well revoke free will because the end result is the same: people feel forced to worship him. A truly benevolent god/a god that wanted people to worship him entirely of their own free will with no outside influences would not only let everyone into heaven regardless of belief but wouldn't even give extra benefits to those that did belief. But this overlooks another point: why does God even care about being worshipped? Why is he so obsessed with it that he not only went through the trouble of creating not only us but angels as well as threatening us with hell and various other punishments if we don't believe? Why would a perfect being want any of that? Is God lonely? If so then why does he want worship? Is God bored? Again, why demand worship? The only reason that I can think of is that God is extremely self-abosrbed. This would also explain why his most prized creations are always made in his image (angels and humans).

so then i'll just say " i believe" right before i die - splash some water on my face and i get in right?

sweet deal

Ok I only read up to page 4, reading 27 pages will take forever, but you guys are seriously being ****heads to the TC. All he's asking is why do people have to say stuff like "you are going to burn in hell" and if you don't want to believe that someone told him that before, whatever, but it has happened to me before as well.

I also feel it's incredible stupid that some people claim their religion as the truth, even though there have been countless of other religions and still are that claim theirs was the one. Just makes me sad...

so then i'll just say " i believe" right before i die - splash some water on my face and i get in right?

sweet deal

BobSacamento

I think that would be a 50/50 shot at working but take your chances

lol

guess it would depend on how god is feeling that day

ughh

[QUOTE="Typical Atheist"]ur all dumb cause god isn't real, lol u should lern to think for yourself instedd of letting sum old book tell u how to live Typical Christian

lulz ur goin' to Hell, liek u should, you moral-less baby-eater. How do u think u exist, the big bang? LOL teh big bang makes no sense. its not 2 l8 tho, just accept Christ and repent!!!!11!!!!

[QUOTE="elmo90"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"][QUOTE="elmo90"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"][QUOTE="brightshadow525"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

Why should anyone make that assumption? If I look around and see no rocks coming at me, why should I act like they are?

rinkegekido2110

We're not talking about rocks! We're talking about eternity!

It's the same principle. There is no evidence of X existing, why should I assume it does?

Try looking at it this way:

You look around and see no chicken. There is no evidence. However, there is an egg.

And where do eggs come from?

In order for there to be a creation, there must be a creator.

Even if I were to accept that argument, it doesn't say anything about the 'creator' other than that it exists. Why should I assume that your interpertation is correct without any evidence?

Not the existence of life, planets, or other natural phenomenon. We were discussing the existence of hell. I'm not dodging, you're going somewhere else entirely.

elmo, you still haven't answered where you were going from our discussion of the existence of hell.

Dare I say.... bump

Mrahahahahahahahahhahahahaha!

Let them believe in God. If it makes them happy productive people... who's too care?

IT's when they run around killing each other and claiming individual interpretations that you have to worry.. oh wait..

2. You just don't get it do you? You don't have free will if the future already exists. Your fate has been decided. The decisions you make have already been made. While you do decide to make them you can never choose a decision that conflicts with your destiny.

3. It doesn't matter what being knows the future. God, your friend, your psychic cat...if it is possible to see the future then determinism is true and free will is an illusion. It doesn't matter who sees it or how. The only way you can have free will is if the future does not exist. And if the future does not exist then no being can know anything about it.

gameguy6700

Correct, the very notion that someone knows EXACTLY what you will do in the future destroys the concept of free will. For a thought experiment, I came up with this analogy, which I will now propose to you.

I live my life here in Scotland. I go to Heriot-Watt univesity in Edinburgh, studying Software Engineering. I go about my daily business thinking that I am in total control of my actions. You, however, possess a tome that details the entirety of my life, timestamped with every action, thought and feeling I have ever had. This tome is enormous, over several million pages in tiny writing, but you can read everything that I will do, think and feel. You can read the grades I get for all my exams; past, present and future. You read that I graduate with second class honours and a masters in Software. You read that I marry a woman I met on freshers week and initially hated and argued with. You read that I have 3 children. One grows up to be a doctor, another becomes a teacher and the other died when they were 12. You read all of these things and my entire life pans out exactly as it is written.

Am I truly free?

You have a point that it could be largely immaterial if I didnt know of the existence of the tome and thought that I was free the whole time. But that is the thing. I am not free, I just have the illusion of choice. Do you see now? If someone knows exactly what you will do, it doesn't matter if they try to coerce you or not. The fact is that you are still totally unfree.