For all you people who believe in god?

[QUOTE="smarb001"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

I think there's proof enough that he existed

Pretty sure of it

He just didn't create the reality you know and love - or somebody he knows

He was just a crazy person

Lots of people kill themselves for crazy reasons

see: suicide bomber

fanofazrienoch

Could've been anything. Graverobbers, fanatics who wanted to touch the "Son of God" one last time, just about anyone could've just walked in and taken the body... but of course the believers find the empty tomb and automatically assume he rose from the dead. And about Jesus appearing to them... dreams, perhaps? Makes a lot more sense than a dead person simply standing up and walking off in any case.

so how about the Post resurrection appearences to the twelve, James, Paul, and the 500 bretheren? do you contest those?

thats what I meant by "jesus appearing to them", sorry if it wasnt clear. And like I said earlier, I doubt that half the stuff in the bible actually happened, and the other 50% is likely very biased towards Christianity (obviously)

EDIT: Oh and I didn't "accept" that the tomb was empty. I just listed possible explanations to the possibility that his tomb was empty. See the difference?

guys whatever i'm not trying to be hitler here you can believe what you want

thats the diffence between an athiest and a religious person

go ahead and do what you want it doesn't affect me

i just want people to be more open minded - and i hope that people will evolve to the point where we no longer need religion as a reason to treat each other well - cuz then all the bad things religion brings (war, killing, segregation) will go away too

BobSacamento

[QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="smarb001"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

I think there's proof enough that he existed

Pretty sure of it

He just didn't create the reality you know and love - or somebody he knows

He was just a crazy person

Lots of people kill themselves for crazy reasons

see: suicide bomber

smarb001

Could've been anything. Graverobbers, fanatics who wanted to touch the "Son of God" one last time, just about anyone could've just walked in and taken the body... but of course the believers find the empty tomb and automatically assume he rose from the dead. And about Jesus appearing to them... dreams, perhaps? Makes a lot more sense than a dead person simply standing up and walking off in any case.

so how about the Post resurrection appearences to the twelve, James, Paul, and the 500 bretheren? do you contest those?

thats what I meant by "jesus appearing to them", sorry if it wasnt clear. And like I said earlier, I doubt that half the stuff in the bible actually happened, and the other 50% is likely very biased towards Christianity (obviously)

when was the last time you had a dream that lasted for 40 days?

also, the physical appearences of Jesus to these people is clearly evident from Paul's use of the greek word "soma" or "body" in english. This can only mean a physical body, not a spiritual one. also, Jesus goes to great lengths in all the Gospels to show that he was physically resurrected

lastly you said that you doubt that half the stuff in the bible happened. might I ask, how exactly did you arrive at this conclusion that the New Testament is a wholly unreliable account?

I thought it was pretty funny :P
DivergeUnify

What I find funny is when somone bashes beleifs....it's because they are insecure in their own.;)

[QUOTE="DivergeUnify"] I thought it was pretty funny :P
LJS9502_basic

What I find funny is when somone bashes beleifs....it's because they are insecure in their own.;)

i have no belief

other than we don't know anything

[QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

guys whatever i'm not trying to be hitler here you can believe what you want

thats the diffence between an athiest and a religious person

go ahead and do what you want it doesn't affect me

i just want people to be more open minded - and i hope that people will evolve to the point where we no longer need religion as a reason to treat each other well - cuz then all the bad things religion brings (war, killing, segregation) will go away too

DivergeUnify

didn't know you can see into the future :) Thats based on the assumption that humanity will always stay as ****ed up as it is now, and that even in a million years we humans will never be able to fully work together, which I think is wrong. If we want to survive the next millenium, all that will have to be behind us. Nuclear weapons are no joke.

least i believe something that i have come to logically by myself

not living someone elses belief

i have no belief

other than we don't know anything

BobSacamento

You have beliefs.....you're pushing them in this thread.

i suppose one could say that

im not saying believe what i do im just desperately trying to disprove conventional religion lol

long as you don't come after me one night with a pitchfork, then we're all cool on my end

[QUOTE="smarb001"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="smarb001"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

I think there's proof enough that he existed

Pretty sure of it

He just didn't create the reality you know and love - or somebody he knows

He was just a crazy person

Lots of people kill themselves for crazy reasons

see: suicide bomber

fanofazrienoch

Could've been anything. Graverobbers, fanatics who wanted to touch the "Son of God" one last time, just about anyone could've just walked in and taken the body... but of course the believers find the empty tomb and automatically assume he rose from the dead. And about Jesus appearing to them... dreams, perhaps? Makes a lot more sense than a dead person simply standing up and walking off in any case.

so how about the Post resurrection appearences to the twelve, James, Paul, and the 500 bretheren? do you contest those?

thats what I meant by "jesus appearing to them", sorry if it wasnt clear. And like I said earlier, I doubt that half the stuff in the bible actually happened, and the other 50% is likely very biased towards Christianity (obviously)

when was the last time you had a dream that lasted for 40 days?

also, the physical appearences of Jesus to these people is clearly evident from Paul's use of the greek word "soma" or "body" in english. This can only mean a physical body, not a spiritual one. also, Jesus goes to great lengths in all the Gospels to show that he was physically resurrected

lastly you said that you doubt that half the stuff in the bible happened. might I ask, how exactly did you arrive at this conclusion that the New Testament is a wholly unreliable account?

*sigh* Do I have to exlain it again? The bible is about as reliable as a historical account as a propoganda booklet written by Hitler's supporters. Plus its freaking 2000 years old, and millions of people could've messed with the text by now, exaggerating some parts while cutting out others. Wait, why am I on the defensive? YOU give ME reasons why the bible is reliable!:P

[QUOTE="smarb001"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="smarb001"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

I think there's proof enough that he existed

Pretty sure of it

He just didn't create the reality you know and love - or somebody he knows

He was just a crazy person

Lots of people kill themselves for crazy reasons

see: suicide bomber

fanofazrienoch

Could've been anything. Graverobbers, fanatics who wanted to touch the "Son of God" one last time, just about anyone could've just walked in and taken the body... but of course the believers find the empty tomb and automatically assume he rose from the dead. And about Jesus appearing to them... dreams, perhaps? Makes a lot more sense than a dead person simply standing up and walking off in any case.

so how about the Post resurrection appearences to the twelve, James, Paul, and the 500 bretheren? do you contest those?

thats what I meant by "jesus appearing to them", sorry if it wasnt clear. And like I said earlier, I doubt that half the stuff in the bible actually happened, and the other 50% is likely very biased towards Christianity (obviously)

when was the last time you had a dream that lasted for 40 days?

also, the physical appearences of Jesus to these people is clearly evident from Paul's use of the greek word "soma" or "body" in english. This can only mean a physical body, not a spiritual one. also, Jesus goes to great lengths in all the Gospels to show that he was physically resurrected

lastly you said that you doubt that half the stuff in the bible happened. might I ask, how exactly did you arrive at this conclusion that the New Testament is a wholly unreliable account?

*sigh* Do I have to explain it again? The bible is about as reliable as a historical account as a propoganda booklet written by Hitler's supporters. Plus its freaking 2000 years old, and millions of people could've messed with the text by now, exaggerating some parts while cutting out others. Wait, why am I on the defensive? YOU give ME reasons why the bible is reliable!:P Quite honestly, I would only trust that Jesus came back from the dead if there were multiple accounts, eye-witnesses, and non-biased third-party onlookers that happened to see something. With me, its pretty much, "If it doesn't stand up in court, its not reliable."

i suppose one could say that

im not saying believe what i do im just desperately trying to disprove conventional religion lol

long as you don't come after me one night with a pitchfork, then we're all cool on my end

BobSacamento

least i believe something that i have come to logically by myself

not living someone elses belief

BobSacamento

Wrong. I have been introduced to this belief and I have made them clear to myself. I believe in them from my own reasoning.

Guys i haven't become an athiest based on one fact or because someone told me to

i became this way through a lifetime of questioning and observation

almost drove me crazy, i did become quite depressed at one point in my life

*sigh* Do I have to explain it again? The bible is about as reliable as a historical account as a propoganda booklet written by Hitler's supporters. Plus its freaking 2000 years old, and millions of people could've messed with the text by now, exaggerating some parts while cutting out others. Wait, why am I on the defensive? YOU give ME reasons why the bible is reliable!:P

smarb001

second, the reason the bible is reliable is because there are multiple authors, 4 of whom were eye-witnesses, and 2 of whom had an eye-witness as their source.

lastly, you went on a brief tangeant about the supposed textual unreliability of the New Testament, saying that it could have been FUBARed in the process of copying and translation.

The problem with this is that the Oldest Manuscripts of the New Testament are 100 years younger than the originals. in terms of textual reliability, this is more reliable than any work of antiquity.

i don't think me and my friend here are trying to "change" you per say

nobody can just hear one line and then flick the switch

it's a lifetime journey

if god helps you get through life then thats just fine

this is how i get through life

i guess in the end it wont matter for either of us will it?

im all for heaven - it would be great, it just doesn't make "sense" to people like me

just how i operate

peace out gents

[QUOTE="smarb001"]

*sigh* Do I have to explain it again? The bible is about as reliable as a historical account as a propoganda booklet written by Hitler's supporters. Plus its freaking 2000 years old, and millions of people could've messed with the text by now, exaggerating some parts while cutting out others. Wait, why am I on the defensive? YOU give ME reasons why the bible is reliable!:P

fanofazrienoch

second, the reason the bible is reliable is because there are multiple authors, 4 of whom were eye-witnesses, and 2 of whom had an eye-witness as their source.

lastly, you went on a brief tangeant about the supposed textual unreliability of the New Testament, saying that it could have been FUBARed in the process of copying and translation.

The problem with this is that the Oldest Manuscripts of the New Testament are 100 years younger than the originals. in terms of textual reliability, this is more reliable than any work of antiquity.

read my updated post. And, quite honestly, this is all BS. How in the hell do you know any of this happened? Nobody ever rose from the dead, thats impossible. Sorry, thats cheating, but this arguement was becoming close to assuming the Christ actually rose the dead, which I in no way believe and imo is a complete fairy tale. Your can't argue that there were "eye-witnesses" when talking about fairy tales. And thats all the bible is, a book of stories not meant to be taken literally and made to teach the basic principles of Jesus' message. There, you got all ****ed off, I've gotten nowhere, and I look like an idiot. The prophecy has come true!

[QUOTE="smarb001"]

*sigh* Do I have to explain it again? The bible is about as reliable as a historical account as a propoganda booklet written by Hitler's supporters. Plus its freaking 2000 years old, and millions of people could've messed with the text by now, exaggerating some parts while cutting out others. Wait, why am I on the defensive? YOU give ME reasons why the bible is reliable!:P

fanofazrienoch

second, the reason the bible is reliable is because there are multiple authors, 4 of whom were eye-witnesses, and 2 of whom had an eye-witness as their source.

lastly, you went on a brief tangeant about the supposed textual unreliability of the New Testament, saying that it could have been FUBARed in the process of copying and translation.

The problem with this is that the Oldest Manuscripts of the New Testament are 100 years younger than the originals. in terms of textual reliability, this is more reliable than any work of antiquity.

read my updated post. And, quite honestly, this is all BS. How in the hell do you know any of this happened? Nobody ever rose from the dead, thats impossible. Sorry, thats cheating, but this arguement was becoming close to assuming the Christ actually rose the dead, which I in no way believe and imo is a complete fairy tale. Your can't argue that there were "eye-witnesses" when talking about fairy tales. And thats all the bible is, a book of stories not meant to be taken literally and made to teach the basic principles of Jesus' message. There, you got me all ****ed off, I've gotten nowhere, and I look like an idiot. The prophecy has come true!

And it doesnt help that it's 3:40 in the morning where I am :(

please 001

let them live their life

please 001

let them live their life

BobSacamento

what life? :lol:

[QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

please 001

let them live their life

smarb001

what life? :lol:

[QUOTE="smarb001"][QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

please 001

let them live their life

airg6

what life? :lol:

what do you think happens to a gorilla or tiger when it dies?

we're just more intelligent animals surely you can see that

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="DivergeUnify"] I thought it was pretty funny :P
BobSacamento

What I find funny is when somone bashes beleifs....it's because they are insecure in their own.;)

i have no belief

other than we don't know anything

[QUOTE="DivergeUnify"] I thought it was pretty funny :P
LJS9502_basic

What I find funny is when somone bashes beleifs....it's because they are insecure in their own.;)

[QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

people like me don't need hope

what are you hoping for? why can't you be happy now and just die happy?

you just need to think on this, i personally wouldn't want to live on forever

even if there is a heaven, i know for SURE that it's not a physical place like here with an all you can eat buffet - and if you believe that then you're the pinnacle of human stupidity

so whats there to look forward to, even a spiritual heaven is still death

brightshadow525

Umm... Ok.... If you just assume that heaven and hell exist, what then? You lived and died happy but what next? Suffer eternally? Doesn't sound like a good plan to me...

Why should anyone make that assumption? If I look around and see no rocks coming at me, why should I act like they are?

Why?

Promising paradise and immortality for all those who follow him and threatening damnation and eternal hellfire to those who don't?

What type of savior threatens death, destruction, pain, suffering to those who do not follow him?

I am not an atheist... more of an agnostic... I believe there could be some type of creator or higher power... but I do not follow a religion... but those of you who follow Jesus? Why?

You say that we shouldn't follow evolution because there is no proof... when there is proof... the oil we burn the fossils that fill our museums? If that isn't proof enough for you... then why do you follow something you can't even see or feel?

Right after you tell me to not follow evolution... you turn around and tell me to believe in someone I have never met who died for "my" sins and to follow a several thousand year old book that says I will suffer for all of eternity unless I embrace it...?

What about other religions? Buddhist, Jews, Hindus, Muslims... they have followed their religions for thousands of years? You are telling me that they are wrong and will suffer because of it?

You people who preach your religions sound more like fanatics than faithful. You tell us we will suffer unless we embrace your lord.

All I ask is why?

Squeets

'cuz he was nice enough not to crush us with his finger after creating us, all WE have to do is be good, then he will give us paradise.

that simple.

[QUOTE="smarb001"]

*sigh* Do I have to explain it again? The bible is about as reliable as a historical account as a propoganda booklet written by Hitler's supporters. Plus its freaking 2000 years old, and millions of people could've messed with the text by now, exaggerating some parts while cutting out others. Wait, why am I on the defensive? YOU give ME reasons why the bible is reliable!:P

fanofazrienoch

second, the reason the bible is reliable is because there are multiple authors, 4 of whom were eye-witnesses, and 2 of whom had an eye-witness as their source.

lastly, you went on a brief tangeant about the supposed textual unreliability of the New Testament, saying that it could have been FUBARed in the process of copying and translation.

The problem with this is that the Oldest Manuscripts of the New Testament are 100 years younger than the originals. in terms of textual reliability, this is more reliable than any work of antiquity.

Actually the leading members of the church decided what gospels should or should not go into the bible by vote. So it was certainly FUBARd to an extent.

what do you think happens to a gorilla or tiger when it dies?

we're just more intelligent animals surely you can see that

can one of you on the side of religion here answer this i havent received any feedback

what do you think happens to a gorilla or tiger when it dies?

we're just more intelligent animals surely you can see that

can one of you on the side of religion here answer this i havent received any feedback

Why should anyone make that assumption? If I look around and see no rocks coming at me, why should I act like they are?

rinkegekido2110

We're not talking about rocks! We're talking about eternity!

[QUOTE="DivergeUnify]

are you calling me insecure? I mean, I believe I've been defending Christianity this whole time, despite being more or less an athiest

I think he was calling the person who bashed Christianity insecure...

are you calling me insecure? I mean, I believe I've been defending Christianity this whole time, despite being more or less an athiest
DivergeUnify

I think he was calling the person who bashed Christianity insecure...

[QUOTE="smarb001"][QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

please 001

let them live their life

airg6

what life? :lol:

I can't be rotting in my grave if you're in heaven, if I'm rotting in my grave you'll be there right along with me. Heaven and the athiest belief of simply dying are imcompatible, they can't both be true. Oh and heaven doesnt exist btw, what a stupid idea. :roll:

[QUOTE="Squeets"]

Why?

Promising paradise and immortality for all those who follow him and threatening damnation and eternal hellfire to those who don't?

What type of savior threatens death, destruction, pain, suffering to those who do not follow him?

I am not an atheist... more of an agnostic... I believe there could be some type of creator or higher power... but I do not follow a religion... but those of you who follow Jesus? Why?

You say that we shouldn't follow evolution because there is no proof... when there is proof... the oil we burn the fossils that fill our museums? If that isn't proof enough for you... then why do you follow something you can't even see or feel?

Right after you tell me to not follow evolution... you turn around and tell me to believe in someone I have never met who died for "my" sins and to follow a several thousand year old book that says I will suffer for all of eternity unless I embrace it...?

What about other religions? Buddhist, Jews, Hindus, Muslims... they have followed their religions for thousands of years? You are telling me that they are wrong and will suffer because of it?

You people who preach your religions sound more like fanatics than faithful. You tell us we will suffer unless we embrace your lord.

All I ask is why?

qwertyoip

'cuz he was nice enough not to crush us with his finger after creating us, all WE have to do is be good, then he will give us paradise.

that simple.

but how do you know he created us? Because your mommy told you so? Or the frikin bible says it (skim through the last 10 pages to see what I think about it)

heaven contradicts the idea of death itself

this is simply a testdrive i guess

even so man most religious people believe that heaven is just a final resting place for your "spirit" or "soul"

i think these people here believe it's another physical world like earth with videogames and casual sex

AND WILL SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER MY GORILLA/LION QUESTION?

heaven contradicts the idea of death itself

this is simply a testdrive i guess

even so man most religious people believe that heaven is just a feeling, or final resting place for your "spirit" or "soul"

i think these people here believe it's another physical world like earth with videogames and casual sex

AND WILL SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER MY GORILLA/LION QUESTION?

I can't be rotting in my grave if you're in heaven, if I'm rotting in my grave you'll be there right along with me. Heaven and the athiest belief of simply dying are imcompatible, they can't both be true. Oh and heaven doesnt exist btw, what a stupid idea. :roll:

smarb001

Oh and the idea that there is no Heaven or hell is a stupid idea to me. Your opinion doesn't make something exist or not exist.

[QUOTE="DivergeUnify"]

are you calling me insecure? I mean, I believe I've been defending Christianity this whole time, despite being more or less an athiest
brightshadow525

I think he was calling the person who bashed Christianity insecure...

[QUOTE="smarb001"]

I can't be rotting in my grave if you're in heaven, if I'm rotting in my grave you'll be there right along with me. Heaven and the athiest belief of simply dying are imcompatible, they can't both be true. Oh and heaven doesnt exist btw, what a stupid idea. :roll:

brightshadow525

Oh and the idea that there is no Heaven or hell is a stupid idea to me. Your opinion doesn't make something exist or not exist.

but the bibles opinion does?

he's shown you just as much proof and logic as the bible has

can't you see that religion was just created to keep people from anarchy

without religion theres no way we would have come this far

[QUOTE="brightshadow525"][QUOTE="smarb001"]

I can't be rotting in my grave if you're in heaven, if I'm rotting in my grave you'll be there right along with me. Heaven and the athiest belief of simply dying are imcompatible, they can't both be true. Oh and heaven doesnt exist btw, what a stupid idea. :roll:

BobSacamento

Oh and the idea that there is no Heaven or hell is a stupid idea to me. Your opinion doesn't make something exist or not exist.

but the bibles opinion does?

he's shown you just as much proof and logic as the bible has

can't you see that religion was just created to keep people from anarchy

without religion theres no way we would have come this far

Whoa, since when has God threatened anyone? You spout all this nonsense about hell and damnation and how horrible God must be yet it isn't God's doing, it's your own. You chose to die by rejecting God (life). Since God's the giver of life, who are you to say you somehow deserve eternal life while rejecting Him?

This thread was started on purely illogical nonsense.

cause we've evolved and people are more civilized now and we no longer need it

any day now we'll find another lifeform on another planet and that will hopefully disprove everything

but then it wont will it

it's doing more harm than good now

i think you'll find that the majority of religious folk are those in 3rd world countries who are living a crap life and need an imaginary friend to turn to

just use your brain man stop asking me and figure it out yourself

i dont want you to believe me either cuz then your just doing the same thing - believing what someone else tells you

your still young im sure, i have no idea how old you are

just don't be afraid

cause we've evolved and people are more civilized now and we no longer need it

BobSacamento

true say,

i did mention that in my second post

but if they keep putting their problems on god and not doing things themselves they're gonna be in the mud for a long time to come

[QUOTE="BobSacamento"]

cause we've evolved and people are more civilized now and we no longer need it

elmo90

Islam is taking a pretty nasty toll on Africa right now.

[QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

Why should anyone make that assumption? If I look around and see no rocks coming at me, why should I act like they are?

brightshadow525

We're not talking about rocks! We're talking about eternity!

It's the same principle. There is no evidence of X existing, why should I assume it does?

Whoa, since when has God threatened anyone? You spout all this nonsense about hell and damnation and how horrible God must be yet it isn't God's doing, it's your own. You chose to die by rejecting God (life). Since God's the giver of life, who are you to say you somehow deserve eternal life while rejecting Him?

This thread was started on purely illogical nonsense.

elmo90

You just admitted that God is threatening you. If you don't believe in him he tortures you forever. Sounds like a threat to me.

Besides, if God exists there's no such thing as free will, at least not if God is telling the truth when he says he's omniscient. To have perfect knowledge of the future requires determinism, and determinism and free will are mutually exclusive of each other. So point being God creates people knowing full well that they'll be unable to avoid going to hell. And even if you want to argue that we have free will the fact still remains that God sets people up to fail. A person born and raised in India or Iran is a lot less likely to ever become a Christian than a person born in America or the UK.

[QUOTE="brightshadow525"][QUOTE="rinkegekido2110"]

Why should anyone make that assumption? If I look around and see no rocks coming at me, why should I act like they are?

rinkegekido2110

We're not talking about rocks! We're talking about eternity!

It's the same principle. There is no evidence of X existing, why should I assume it does?

Try looking at it this way:

You look around and see no chicken. There is no evidence. However, there is an egg.

And where do eggs come from?

In order for there to be a creation, there must be a creator.