@indzman said:
@charizard1605 said:
@getyeryayasout: sadly I have minimal interest in the prequel cause no Max
Last important question, is Max a likeable cutie? :)
yep.
She is actually one of the most complex protagonists in gaming.
Will i enjoy Life is Strange?
@texasgoldrush said:
@charizard1605 said:
@getyeryayasout: sadly I have minimal interest in the prequel cause no Max
Max is referenced all through the game and is a factor like how Rachel was a factor without her physical presence in the original. Max also is playable in the Farewell episode.
In fact Chloe writes to max letters she will never send.
I'm playing the Farewell Episode, it's the reason I got the Deluxe Edition or whatever, but I have minimal interest in the game itself. Max was the main factor for me liking the original as much as I did
@valgaav_219 said:
@charizard1605 said:
@getyeryayasout: sadly I have minimal interest in the prequel cause no Max
Me too. Also no powers too. I know I'm gonna get it eventually but I'm a little disappointed but I can't really judge it if I haven't played it yet smh
Yeah, the time twisting was really great
@indzman said:
@charizard1605 said:
@getyeryayasout: sadly I have minimal interest in the prequel cause no Max
Last important question, is Max a likeable cutie? :)
Absolutely
Devs made Max wear that red and black lumberjack in episode 3.
But didnt give her a hat to match.
Fashion choice is suspect.
Edit: Still better than Persona characters.
@texasgoldrush said:
@indzman said:
@charizard1605 said:
@getyeryayasout: sadly I have minimal interest in the prequel cause no Max
Last important question, is Max a likeable cutie? :)
yep.
She is actually one of the most complex protagonists in gaming.
that might be a step too far...
can confirm she is a "cutie" though
You'll like it whether you like it or not. Now go buy the game and play it already! ??
@charizard1605 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@charizard1605 said:
@getyeryayasout: sadly I have minimal interest in the prequel cause no Max
Max is referenced all through the game and is a factor like how Rachel was a factor without her physical presence in the original. Max also is playable in the Farewell episode.
In fact Chloe writes to max letters she will never send.
I'm playing the Farewell Episode, it's the reason I got the Deluxe Edition or whatever, but I have minimal interest in the game itself. Max was the main factor for me liking the original as much as I did
@valgaav_219 said:
@charizard1605 said:
@getyeryayasout: sadly I have minimal interest in the prequel cause no Max
Me too. Also no powers too. I know I'm gonna get it eventually but I'm a little disappointed but I can't really judge it if I haven't played it yet smh
Yeah, the time twisting was really great
@indzman said:
@charizard1605 said:
@getyeryayasout: sadly I have minimal interest in the prequel cause no Max
Last important question, is Max a likeable cutie? :)
Absolutely
The absence of Max makes Before the Storm. She is still a huge narrative element, just not in the game. And really Rachel Amber is an excellent character with an incredible voice performance. Chloe and Rachel is just as powerful as a bond as Max and Chloe.
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@indzman said:
@charizard1605 said:
@getyeryayasout: sadly I have minimal interest in the prequel cause no Max
Last important question, is Max a likeable cutie? :)
yep.
She is actually one of the most complex protagonists in gaming.
that might be a step too far...
can confirm she is a "cutie" though
In gaming, not really. She is a very complex protagonist compared to all the two dimensional action heroes you see.
@texasgoldrush said:
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@indzman said:
Last important question, is Max a likeable cutie? :)
yep.
She is actually one of the most complex protagonists in gaming.
that might be a step too far...
can confirm she is a "cutie" though
In gaming, not really. She is a very complex protagonist compared to all the two dimensional action heroes you see.
Naw, the whole point of Max is to be relatable, her goals are never really complex and that is kind of the point. She has certain motivation, but not enough to be considered a very complex character or throw off the player from putting themselves in Max's position. I would say she is more interesting than the protagonists in a lot of the AAA space, but she is nowhere near what I would consider very complex. Her motivations are always simple and her actions are dictated by you, the player. Also she lacks any substantial growth to her character that fundamentally changes the way she acts, she is always the same Max who goes out and helps people
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
yep.
She is actually one of the most complex protagonists in gaming.
that might be a step too far...
can confirm she is a "cutie" though
In gaming, not really. She is a very complex protagonist compared to all the two dimensional action heroes you see.
Naw, her whole point of Max is to be relatable, her goals are never really complex and that is kind of the point. She has certain motivation, but not enough to be considered a very complex character or throw off the player from putting themselves in Max's position. I would say she is more interesting than the protagonists in a lot of the AAA space, but she is nowhere near what I would consider very complex. Her motivations are always simple and her actions are dictated by you, the player. Also she lacks any substantial growth to her character that fundamentally changes the way she acts, she is always the same Max who goes out and helps people
seems you are into story driven games alot, like i am. What games do you think having complex characters and/or you enjoyed in general ?
@AzatiS said:
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
yep.
She is actually one of the most complex protagonists in gaming.
that might be a step too far...
can confirm she is a "cutie" though
In gaming, not really. She is a very complex protagonist compared to all the two dimensional action heroes you see.
Naw, her whole point of Max is to be relatable, her goals are never really complex and that is kind of the point. She has certain motivation, but not enough to be considered a very complex character or throw off the player from putting themselves in Max's position. I would say she is more interesting than the protagonists in a lot of the AAA space, but she is nowhere near what I would consider very complex. Her motivations are always simple and her actions are dictated by you, the player. Also she lacks any substantial growth to her character that fundamentally changes the way she acts, she is always the same Max who goes out and helps people
seems you are into story driven games alot, like i am. What games do you think having complex characters and/or you enjoyed in general ?
I tend to lean towards story driven games being my favorites, so if youre looking for good stories and characters I recommend Persona, Danganronpa, Zero Escape, and Steins;Gate. They do depend on your patience for wordy games, but they are all fantastic. I cant recommend any of them enough
@aigis said:
@AzatiS said:
@aigis said:
Naw, her whole point of Max is to be relatable, her goals are never really complex and that is kind of the point. She has certain motivation, but not enough to be considered a very complex character or throw off the player from putting themselves in Max's position. I would say she is more interesting than the protagonists in a lot of the AAA space, but she is nowhere near what I would consider very complex. Her motivations are always simple and her actions are dictated by you, the player. Also she lacks any substantial growth to her character that fundamentally changes the way she acts, she is always the same Max who goes out and helps people
seems you are into story driven games alot, like i am. What games do you think having complex characters and/or you enjoyed in general ?
I tend to lean towards story driven games being my favorites, so if youre looking for good stories and characters I recommend Persona, Danganronpa, Zero Escape, and Steins;Gate. They do depend on your patience for wordy games, but they are all fantastic. I cant recommend any of them enough
So anime lover also !
@AzatiS said:
@aigis said:
@AzatiS said:
@aigis said:
Naw, her whole point of Max is to be relatable, her goals are never really complex and that is kind of the point. She has certain motivation, but not enough to be considered a very complex character or throw off the player from putting themselves in Max's position. I would say she is more interesting than the protagonists in a lot of the AAA space, but she is nowhere near what I would consider very complex. Her motivations are always simple and her actions are dictated by you, the player. Also she lacks any substantial growth to her character that fundamentally changes the way she acts, she is always the same Max who goes out and helps people
seems you are into story driven games alot, like i am. What games do you think having complex characters and/or you enjoyed in general ?
I tend to lean towards story driven games being my favorites, so if youre looking for good stories and characters I recommend Persona, Danganronpa, Zero Escape, and Steins;Gate. They do depend on your patience for wordy games, but they are all fantastic. I cant recommend any of them enough
So anime lover also !
ya got me :P
Honestly I havent watched too much anime, but I do like the aesthetic in games personally. Really I think Japan has more of a focus on single player stuff like narrative where Western development has a focus on gameplay and multiplayer. Not to say thats a rule, just speaking generally and from observations. But once you get one it usually leads you to another, like Zero Escape and Danganronpa have pretty close communities.
@Vatusus said:
Out of the cinematic "point and click/multiple choice" games I played I think it's definitely the better one. Saying this, I would never spend money on these types of games. Once they're beaten I never feel to urge to play them again and there's no gameplay there to speak of... the only reason I ever played them was because they were, at some point, free of charge
But if you like this types of games then yeah, LiS is... ok. Its the equivalent of watching some teen drama tv show with a minor supernatural element. You know its cheesy but it manages to grab your attention
great indie soundtrack though, if you're into indie/alternative music
Do you pay for movies? Because this isn't much different, except for the fact that these kind of games last longer.
@walloftruth said:
@Vatusus said:
Out of the cinematic "point and click/multiple choice" games I played I think it's definitely the better one. Saying this, I would never spend money on these types of games. Once they're beaten I never feel to urge to play them again and there's no gameplay there to speak of... the only reason I ever played them was because they were, at some point, free of charge
But if you like this types of games then yeah, LiS is... ok. Its the equivalent of watching some teen drama tv show with a minor supernatural element. You know its cheesy but it manages to grab your attention
great indie soundtrack though, if you're into indie/alternative music
Do you pay for movies?
Rarely.
Because this isn't much different, except for the fact that these kind of games last longer.
Length does not correlate with good entertainment. Their stories might be above the average by games standards (wich are very very low standards) but they still pale in comparison with the vast majority of movies/books stories. While I'll gladly spend 3,50€ for a good movie on a theater I dont feel so eager in giving 20€ for a mediocre story behind a 10h walking/clicking/QTE fest they like to call "gameplay". I have no problem with proper "point-and-click" adventures that actually challenge your brain cells (like Grim Fandango or Monkey Island) but these types of games we speak of dont challenge you in any way outside of "meaningful" decisions you make that almost always end up being trivial as hell (Like LiS for example... all those "decisions" you made throughout the game and the ending still ends up with only two outcomes)...
answers in bold
@aigis said:
@AzatiS said:
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@aigis said:
that might be a step too far...
can confirm she is a "cutie" though
In gaming, not really. She is a very complex protagonist compared to all the two dimensional action heroes you see.
Naw, her whole point of Max is to be relatable, her goals are never really complex and that is kind of the point. She has certain motivation, but not enough to be considered a very complex character or throw off the player from putting themselves in Max's position. I would say she is more interesting than the protagonists in a lot of the AAA space, but she is nowhere near what I would consider very complex. Her motivations are always simple and her actions are dictated by you, the player. Also she lacks any substantial growth to her character that fundamentally changes the way she acts, she is always the same Max who goes out and helps people
seems you are into story driven games alot, like i am. What games do you think having complex characters and/or you enjoyed in general ?
I tend to lean towards story driven games being my favorites, so if youre looking for good stories and characters I recommend Persona, Danganronpa, Zero Escape, and Steins;Gate. They do depend on your patience for wordy games, but they are all fantastic. I cant recommend any of them enough
I think Persona 5 is highly overrated, and in fact, they stumble in places where LIS succeeds.
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@indzman said:
Last important question, is Max a likeable cutie? :)
yep.
She is actually one of the most complex protagonists in gaming.
that might be a step too far...
can confirm she is a "cutie" though
In gaming, not really. She is a very complex protagonist compared to all the two dimensional action heroes you see.
Naw, the whole point of Max is to be relatable, her goals are never really complex and that is kind of the point. She has certain motivation, but not enough to be considered a very complex character or throw off the player from putting themselves in Max's position. I would say she is more interesting than the protagonists in a lot of the AAA space, but she is nowhere near what I would consider very complex. Her motivations are always simple and her actions are dictated by you, the player. Also she lacks any substantial growth to her character that fundamentally changes the way she acts, she is always the same Max who goes out and helps people
Max is an incredibly complex character and her story arc is very subtle and believable. Actually she shows incredible growth form the beginning to the end, and influences Chloe's development doing so. Her adventure changed her and made her more mature as well as more fearless, but also she begins to realize her flaws and her selfishness as well. And in regards to many different aspects of the story, her personality (and even her choice allowance) is complex. Some of her actions are dictated by you BUT NOT ALL, and I mean this in key moments of the story. The ending choice also follows her development and she can believably go either way. And really Max is also the antagonist of Life is Strange as much as she is the protagonist.
The game is pretty good. The story and characters are enjoyable enough, however pale in comparison to other mediums. The soundtrack is probably one of the better things about it.
Other than the story, the game's puzzles are nothing to rave about and the time mechanics, whilst fitting in with the story could have been used for some more interesting puzzles.
@texasgoldrush said:
I think Persona 5 is highly overrated, and in fact, they stumble in places where LIS succeeds.
Naw LiS doesnt even come close to touching P5 in terms of characters or story
@texasgoldrush said:
Max is an incredibly complex character and her story arc is very subtle and believable. Actually she shows incredible growth form the beginning to the end, and influences Chloe's development doing so. Her adventure changed her and made her more mature as well as more fearless, but also she begins to realize her flaws and her selfishness as well. And in regards to many different aspects of the story, her personality (and even her choice allowance) is complex. Some of her actions are dictated by you BUT NOT ALL, and I mean this in key moments of the story. The ending choice also follows her development and she can believably go either way. And really Max is also the antagonist of Life is Strange as much as she is the protagonist.
None of the events prior have an effect on Max when she makes a decision. She doesnt do x thing because of what happened at y time because the game cannot function like that, it is built around the choices you make. Max cannot grow by herself, it is fundamentally against the design of the game, any growth attributed to Max is purely based on how you play the game. You may say Max choosing to let go at the end shows that she grew, but that was a choice you made for Max when she could easily chosen not to let go or you had chosen to go against them every chance you got through the game. Both are valid options for Max to go down, there is no real Max, only the Max you make for yourself. She was always fearless throughout the story, she saves people right from chapter 1, there is no development personally for Max. I would say the overall growth of the story is not Max's journey, she is a conduit for the player, the real story is the relationship between Max and Chloe, resulting in Chloe's development. Never once do you have to realize any flaws with Max or her selfishness if you the player do not want (and really the ending was half-baked anyways). Any morality placed on Max is a projection of what you expect from her as the player. But ya, good game.
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
I think Persona 5 is highly overrated, and in fact, they stumble in places where LIS succeeds.
Naw LiS doesnt even come close to touching P5 in terms of characters or story
@texasgoldrush said:
Max is an incredibly complex character and her story arc is very subtle and believable. Actually she shows incredible growth form the beginning to the end, and influences Chloe's development doing so. Her adventure changed her and made her more mature as well as more fearless, but also she begins to realize her flaws and her selfishness as well. And in regards to many different aspects of the story, her personality (and even her choice allowance) is complex. Some of her actions are dictated by you BUT NOT ALL, and I mean this in key moments of the story. The ending choice also follows her development and she can believably go either way. And really Max is also the antagonist of Life is Strange as much as she is the protagonist.
None of the events prior have an effect on Max when she makes a decision. She doesnt do x thing because of what happened at y time because the game cannot function like that, it is built around the choices you make. Max cannot grow by herself, it is fundamentally against the design of the game, any growth attributed to Max is purely based on how you play the game. You may say Max choosing to let go at the end shows that she grew, but that was a choice you made for Max when she could easily chosen not to let go or you had chosen to go against them every chance you got through the game. Both are valid options for Max to go down, there is no real Max, only the Max you make for yourself. She was always fearless throughout the story, she saves people right from chapter 1, there is no development personally for Max. I would say the overall growth of the story is not Max's journey, she is a conduit for the player, the real story is the relationship between Max and Chloe, resulting in Chloe's development. Never once do you have to realize any flaws with Max or her selfishness if you the player do not want (and really the ending was half-baked anyways). Any morality placed on Max is a projection of what you expect from her as the player. But ya, good game.
No, P5 stumbles absolutely where LIS succeeds. Take the suicide attempt for instance. Both games have very similar plot lines to where a sexually harassed student tries to take her life. However, P5 dumps on it by pushing the implications of the sequence to the side, and after that, goes against its own message. LIS on the other hand, the character storyline of Kate reverberates throughout the plot. P5 is a complete mess of a story. It falls apart by going against its own messaging. Really, Perosna's developers should take a long hard look at LIS, because LIS is how its done in regards to portraying serious social themes.
And wrong on Max. She will ALWAYS love Chloe no matter what, she will ALWAYS try to hold on to Chloe until the end, and her actions make events in the story worse. While Max is able to do thing through player choice, this player choice is limited by her personality and her values. She will never be able to do everything the player wants, its all about what Max would do. Max develops through the storyline, but its SUBTLE, because her character is subtle. Sorry, but Max is not a projection of the player, because if she was, she would not do anything wrong because the player chooses to. There is no Max I made for myself, I am just only allowed to choose what her character allows.
@texasgoldrush: ok first, just because it isnt the focus does not mean it is a major plot point. Its even explored more in P5 anyways with Ann's s.link and as a setup to the entire game, the whole game is a consequence of that moment. P5's strength is that it is able to develop multiple characters with a latge amount of complexity because you can choose to spend time with each of them. I never get to go to the movies with Warren even if I wanted to or hang out with a just a character of my choosing. Kate's storyline has no more impact than Shiho, Max will never change depending on how that played out because she cannot. P5 is a game more suited to narrative structure than LiS because you always have to account for the other option.
Maybe my max didnt, I can choose not to stand up for her when David is around, I can say Chloe needs to stop being irresponsible, I can say she is ruining her Mom's marriage. All these are choices that if the person was playing that way, heavily deminish the ending. Max's personallity is limited so the player can make each choice, she even justifies both options for every choice in the game, Max is okay with whatever you choose because she is you. If the player was not able to do what they want in a choice based game it would suck, the game works on the level that you are able to place yourself in Max's shoes. Choosing what she allows is imposing your will onto her, there is no wrong answer because you choose what Max would want to do. That isnt growth or complexity, thats a projection of how your Max had to change not everyones Max
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush: ok first, just because it isnt the focus does not mean it is a major plot point. Its even explored more in P5 anyways with Ann's s.link and as a setup to the entire game, the whole game is a consequence of that moment. P5's strength is that it is able to develop multiple characters with a latge amount of complexity because you can choose to spend time with each of them. I never get to go to the movies with Warren even if I wanted to or hang out with a just a character of my choosing. Kate's storyline has no more impact than Shiho, Max will never change depending on how that played out because she cannot. P5 is a game more suited to narrative structure than LiS because you always have to account for the other option.
Maybe my max didnt, I can choose not to stand up for her when David is around, I can say Chloe needs to stop being irresponsible, I can say she is ruining her Mom's marriage. All these are choices that if the person was playing that way, heavily deminish the ending. Max's personallity is limited so the player can make each choice, she even justifies both options for every choice in the game, Max is okay with whatever you choose because she is you. If the player was not able to do what they want in a choice based game it would suck, the game works on the level that you are able to place yourself in Max's shoes. Choosing what she allows is imposing your will onto her, there is no wrong answer because you choose what Max would want to do. That isnt growth or complexity, thats a projection of how your Max had to change not everyones Max
But that's not character complexity. In fact, P5's characters really are pretty two note. They are only about a couple things. LIS's main cast however is far more complex. Just because you can hang out with a character doesn't mean they get more complex as a character. Also P5 once again as storytelling issues regarding its plot, its themes, and even its characterization that cannot be ignored. Several times P5 scores an own goal against itself and unlike LIS overall, the story doesn't work in P5.
Sorry, but Max is a set protagonist with set feelings. She can choose when her character allows, that's it. Otherwise, she has her own feelings, her own goals in life, her own backstory, her own characterization. She is not a vessel for the player. If I can impose my will to her, why cannot bully characters, why can I not go along with Chloe, why can't I not get drunk at the party, why do I have to travel back in time? Max is not me, just like Chloe is not me in BTS. The entire game is really Max coming of age. That's what the story is. She develops, she learns.
And to end this argument, Max's journal ends any notion that she is "you".
@texasgoldrush: no way, the time you spend with the characters in P5 gives them more context, yoy work through problems with them. Everyone has to deal with struggles and they change and develop during the course of time you spend with them. LiS does not achieve this to the same level as P5 in the slightest and are way more single note. Warren, likes Max. Frank, likes Chloes friend. David, suspicious army guy. Nathan, rich asshole. Victoria, rich asshole. Kate, gets bullied. A lot of these characters just dont change, there is no development. P5 is all about development, Futaba is a shut-in who blamed herself for her moms death and is now trying to be more sociable. Yusuke is a painter who got betrayed and is trying find what inspired him to paint in the first place. Tae is a doctor who was blamed for the death of a patient and now is trying to make amends. All these characters offer way more complexity because you get to see them change and grow. The only character in LiS that does this is really Chloe.
She doesnt get to choose anything, you do or else you are not playing the game. She has a personality, but that doesnt define her actions, the situation dictates everything and in that situation you are choosing what she does. She is a normal person in abnormal situations. Saying why cant I do something off script is so off base its not even funny, the game limitations just like any other game. The game would break without structure, but saying I cant do x so Im not that person is something that can be applied to games where you are supposed to be that character like a skyrim or mass effect type. Max does not dictate your actions or else there is only one choice, you as the player say if you want to act positively or negatively in the situation. She does not learn unless you are learning from choices you made. What did she even learn? That she cant solve everything? But what if I chose to reject that truth? What happens to my Max's growth? Did she not learn anything then? Maybe. In the numerous different Maxs the player can choose to create, some have a higher disposition to accept this truth while others do not. It all depends on how you play the game.
The diary doesnt take away from the fundamental gameplay and is really just a way of keeping extra info in line with the game. I didnt say she didnt have a personality, im saying she isnt complex because of the structure of the game. Which is not even a bad thing, thats how it should be done for these types of games. She is agreeable so the player can relate
@Vatusus said:
@walloftruth said:
Do you pay for movies?
Rarely.
Because this isn't much different, except for the fact that these kind of games last longer.
Length does not correlate with good entertainment. Their stories might be above the average by games standards (wich are very very low standards) but they still pale in comparison with the vast majority of movies/books stories. While I'll gladly spend 3,50€ for a good movie on a theater I dont feel so eager in giving 20€ for a mediocre story behind a 10h walking/clicking/QTE fest they like to call "gameplay". I have no problem with proper "point-and-click" adventures that actually challenge your brain cells (like Grim Fandango or Monkey Island) but these types of games we speak of dont challenge you in any way outside of "meaningful" decisions you make that almost always end up being trivial as hell (Like LiS for example... all those "decisions" you made throughout the game and the ending still ends up with only two outcomes)...
answers in bold
Fair enough but where can you watch movies for 3,50€? I'm amusing you mean cinemas here, if not then neverind. Where I come from we have to pay 6€ for a standart movie and 9€ for a 3D one. So if you'd actually enjoy something like LiS (the entire game) and buy it on sale for 12€(or something like that) then the difference wouldn't have been too big and you'd likely have more hours of enjoyment with the game rather than with a movie.
Also you wrote that game stories pale in comparison to the majority of movie/book stories. I can relate to the book part of your comment but getting a good movie story gets more rare every year IMO. Maybe I'm just watching the wrong movies though.
Its ok. Dont fall for the hype though.
Btw, bae over bay.
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush: no way, the time you spend with the characters in P5 gives them more context, yoy work through problems with them. Everyone has to deal with struggles and they change and develop during the course of time you spend with them. LiS does not achieve this to the same level as P5 in the slightest and are way more single note. Warren, likes Max. Frank, likes Chloes friend. David, suspicious army guy. Nathan, rich asshole. Victoria, rich asshole. Kate, gets bullied. A lot of these characters just dont change, there is no development. P5 is all about development, Futaba is a shut-in who blamed herself for her moms death and is now trying to be more sociable. Yusuke is a painter who got betrayed and is trying find what inspired him to paint in the first place. Tae is a doctor who was blamed for the death of a patient and now is trying to make amends. All these characters offer way more complexity because you get to see them change and grow. The only character in LiS that does this is really Chloe.
She doesnt get to choose anything, you do or else you are not playing the game. She has a personality, but that doesnt define her actions, the situation dictates everything and in that situation you are choosing what she does. She is a normal person in abnormal situations. Saying why cant I do something off script is so off base its not even funny, the game limitations just like any other game. The game would break without structure, but saying I cant do x so Im not that person is something that can be applied to games where you are supposed to be that character like a skyrim or mass effect type. Max does not dictate your actions or else there is only one choice, you as the player say if you want to act positively or negatively in the situation. She does not learn unless you are learning from choices you made. What did she even learn? That she cant solve everything? But what if I chose to reject that truth? What happens to my Max's growth? Did she not learn anything then? Maybe. In the numerous different Maxs the player can choose to create, some have a higher disposition to accept this truth while others do not. It all depends on how you play the game.
The diary doesnt take away from the fundamental gameplay and is really just a way of keeping extra info in line with the game. I didnt say she didnt have a personality, im saying she isnt complex because of the structure of the game. Which is not even a bad thing, thats how it should be done for these types of games. She is agreeable so the player can relate
Ummm. what game did have you played, because the notion that the supporting characters don't develop is a lie. Based on your choices, Max's supporting cast develops in different ways, and they do realize their past mistakes and have regrets. Also P5 is more focused on an ensemble cast but none of their characters match the complexity of Max, Chloe, or now Rachel. And once again, most of P5's characters are two note.
Her personality and her friendship with Chloe DOES define her actions. What part of that do you not get? She will always try to save Chloe until the end, no matter what you do. Its defined. The game does not let you go off base because the limitations of the character, which has a defined personality and goal. You are ONLY able to choose the things Max would do as a character defined by her character traits. Then you simply put, want to ignore her monologues, her diary, and other tools that strictly show that she is a defined protagonist. She DOES learn she cannot solve everything and BOTH ENDINGS follow that theme and her development. Also once again, Max is also the antagonist of the story and you can only pull that off if you have a complex character. Max actually learns from choices she makes that you actually do not get to make.
And Chloe as the BTS protagonist is the same way. Yes, you play as her and make choices, but once again, Chloe is well defined and will not allow choice outside of her traits.
@texasgoldrush said:
Ummm. what game did have you played, because the notion that the supporting characters don't develop is a lie. Based on your choices, Max's supporting cast develops in different ways, and they do realize their past mistakes and have regrets. Also P5 is more focused on an ensemble cast but none of their characters match the complexity of Max, Chloe, or now Rachel. And once again, most of P5's characters are two note.
I havent played BTS so I am not talking about it in the slightest, so yes LiS characters do not develop at all aside from 2 characters (and neither of those characters are Max). P5 characters have actually arcs they go on. Just saying they are complex and develop isnt evidence they do, pls try harder
@texasgoldrush said:
Her personality and her friendship with Chloe DOES define her actions. What part of that do you not get? She will always try to save Chloe until the end, no matter what you do. Its defined. The game does not let you go off base because the limitations of the character, which has a defined personality and goal. You are ONLY able to choose the things Max would do as a character defined by her character traits. Then you simply put, want to ignore her monologues, her diary, and other tools that strictly show that she is a defined protagonist. She DOES learn she cannot solve everything and BOTH ENDINGS follow that theme and her development. Also once again, Max is also the antagonist of the story and you can only pull that off if you have a complex character. Max actually learns from choices she makes that you actually do not get to make.
If you believe both endings have her reach the same conclusion then you obviously dont know what you are talking about. The moral is totally taken away if you choose "the bad" ending. Max being a dick to Chloe is a 100% valid option which clashes with the other options in the game, but if there are only things Max would do there is not game because there is a correct option each time. You are playing the game wrong, Max would not do that because she have a personality that would make her do that. What does Max learn? Nothing substantial. Zero point zero
@texasgoldrush said:
And Chloe as the BTS protagonist is the same way. Yes, you play as her and make choices, but once again, Chloe is well defined and will not allow choice outside of her traits.
Again no BTS
Max is also the antagonist of the story and you can only pull that off if you have a complex character
I actually want to focus on this point. No this is so wrong on so many levels. Just because you want to throw in a twist doesnt mean Max is a villain or complex. Max is not the villain of the game, nature itself is. It is the culmination of all the shittiest ideas in LiS to make that part. Nowhere in the game prior do they suggest that Max is the cause of anything and how do you know? Warren said so. Got a B on his high school science test Warren, he just knows. It was so contrived just to get the ending choice out of the player. But why does that make Max more complex? It does not. She can say screw it and ignore everything, that is a valid option for Max, that is the true Max that you are so desperate to find. She doesnt even mean to do what she does, she is an ignorant character if anything, thats not complexity. She never does become a destructive force by her own free will, so how does that make her complex when she is not even using complex thoughts?
Jesus ever loving ****
@walloftruth said:
Fair enough but where can you watch movies for 3,50€? I'm amusing you mean cinemas here, if not then neverind.
I have a card that gives me two tickets for the price of one. I usually bring a friend with me and split the bill.
And when you say "movies are getting worse by the day" you probably mean the commercial Holywood movies. If you move away from that, you'll still find some great cinema. And even a mediocre movie story is often better than a "good" game story. If LiS was a movie, I'm sure it would bomb with critics for its similarities with the typical teenage movie melodrama. I mean, most of it's characters are one-sided tropes taken directly from the old high school americana movies: The B*tch groups, the jocks, the Nerds, etc, etc, etc...
Life is strange was for me such a difficult game to "enjoy" And there was one reason for it Chloe. OMG I have never really felt hatred for a character in video games but Chloe just made me mad. As evidence I actually caught me smiling by the end of I think it was Episode 3 and I said holy shit....
What really was irritating to me that the developers tried to hammer in that I should feel sorry for Chloe even she was basically the whole reason the Cast had problems. I felt sorry for her mother who wanted just a happy family. I felt sorry for the Step dad which oviously had PTSD and just wanted to protect his family. I felt Sorry for Rachel's "boyfriend" even he was such a shithead. Many kids lose their parrents or have to suffer but they still develop not into such a shithead than chloe did. No Chloe I do not feel sorry for you and If I were Max I would have broken off with her.
Thats also the reason why I just can not play the prequel. which is sad since other than Chloe I pretty much enjoyed the game and its characters.
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
Ummm. what game did have you played, because the notion that the supporting characters don't develop is a lie. Based on your choices, Max's supporting cast develops in different ways, and they do realize their past mistakes and have regrets. Also P5 is more focused on an ensemble cast but none of their characters match the complexity of Max, Chloe, or now Rachel. And once again, most of P5's characters are two note.
I havent played BTS so I am not talking about it in the slightest, so yes LiS characters do not develop at all aside from 2 characters (and neither of those characters are Max). P5 characters have actually arcs they go on. Just saying they are complex and develop isnt evidence they do, pls try harder
@texasgoldrush said:
Her personality and her friendship with Chloe DOES define her actions. What part of that do you not get? She will always try to save Chloe until the end, no matter what you do. Its defined. The game does not let you go off base because the limitations of the character, which has a defined personality and goal. You are ONLY able to choose the things Max would do as a character defined by her character traits. Then you simply put, want to ignore her monologues, her diary, and other tools that strictly show that she is a defined protagonist. She DOES learn she cannot solve everything and BOTH ENDINGS follow that theme and her development. Also once again, Max is also the antagonist of the story and you can only pull that off if you have a complex character. Max actually learns from choices she makes that you actually do not get to make.
If you believe both endings have her reach the same conclusion then you obviously dont know what you are talking about. The moral is totally taken away if you choose "the bad" ending. Max being a dick to Chloe is a 100% valid option which clashes with the other options in the game, but if there are only things Max would do there is not game because there is a correct option each time. You are playing the game wrong, Max would not do that because she have a personality that would make her do that. What does Max learn? Nothing substantial. Zero point zero
@texasgoldrush said:
And Chloe as the BTS protagonist is the same way. Yes, you play as her and make choices, but once again, Chloe is well defined and will not allow choice outside of her traits.
Again no BTS
Max is also the antagonist of the story and you can only pull that off if you have a complex character
I actually want to focus on this point. No this is so wrong on so many levels. Just because you want to throw in a twist doesnt mean Max is a villain or complex. Max is not the villain of the game, nature itself is. It is the culmination of all the shittiest ideas in LiS to make that part. Nowhere in the game prior do they suggest that Max is the cause of anything and how do you know? Warren said so. Got a B on his high school science test Warren, he just knows. It was so contrived just to get the ending choice out of the player. But why does that make Max more complex? It does not. She can say screw it and ignore everything, that is a valid option for Max, that is the true Max that you are so desperate to find. She doesnt even mean to do what she does, she is an ignorant character if anything, thats not complexity. She never does become a destructive force by her own free will, so how does that make her complex when she is not even using complex thoughts?
Once again, picking and choosing. Sorry, but LIS characters also have arcs and their arcs can change based on your choices. In fact, they are more varied than P5's arcs because P5's arcs do not change much on choice, but whether you do them or not.
BOTH endings do have her reach the same conclusion. She cannot fix everything and she has to take responsibility for her actions. Just because its not directly her fault doesn't mean her actions do not matter. Max definitely is the antagonist of the story because the final conflict is with the self, which Chloe helps resolve. This is shown in the dream sequence. Your rambling does not address the very fact that she makes decisions without giving you the choice. Why do you keep ignoring this? Her actions matter whether you choose them or not. She simply put, isn't the vessel for the player you make her out to be and the choices given to you have the same message and character development regardless of what you choose.
@texasgoldrush said:
Once again, picking and choosing. Sorry, but LIS characters also have arcs and their arcs can change based on your choices. In fact, they are more varied than P5's arcs because P5's arcs do not change much on choice, but whether you do them or not.
BOTH endings do have her reach the same conclusion. She cannot fix everything and she has to take responsibility for her actions. Just because its not directly her fault doesn't mean her actions do not matter. Max definitely is the antagonist of the story because the final conflict is with the self, which Chloe helps resolve. This is shown in the dream sequence. Your rambling does not address the very fact that she makes decisions without giving you the choice. Why do you keep ignoring this? Her actions matter whether you choose them or not. She simply put, isn't the vessel for the player you make her out to be and the choices given to you have the same message and character development regardless of what you choose.
examples pls. Also "they are more varied than P5's arcs because P5's arcs do not change much on choice", so they do change on choice. So there are differences.
"BOTH endings do have her reach the same conclusion.", they do not and youre being ridiculous if you believe that. There are story beats, but not places were Max makes such a big decision where she changes the course of the game completely. That isnt what we are talking about though, we are talking about complexity in her character or the lack there of. Im talking about the fundamental design of the game. Pls provide examples
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
Once again, picking and choosing. Sorry, but LIS characters also have arcs and their arcs can change based on your choices. In fact, they are more varied than P5's arcs because P5's arcs do not change much on choice, but whether you do them or not.
BOTH endings do have her reach the same conclusion. She cannot fix everything and she has to take responsibility for her actions. Just because its not directly her fault doesn't mean her actions do not matter. Max definitely is the antagonist of the story because the final conflict is with the self, which Chloe helps resolve. This is shown in the dream sequence. Your rambling does not address the very fact that she makes decisions without giving you the choice. Why do you keep ignoring this? Her actions matter whether you choose them or not. She simply put, isn't the vessel for the player you make her out to be and the choices given to you have the same message and character development regardless of what you choose.
examples pls. Also "they are more varied than P5's arcs because P5's arcs do not change much on choice", so they do change on choice. So there are differences.
"BOTH endings do have her reach the same conclusion.", they do not and youre being ridiculous if you believe that. There are story beats, but not places were Max makes such a big decision where she changes the course of the game completely. That isnt what we are talking about though, we are talking about complexity in her character or the lack there of. Im talking about the fundamental design of the game. Pls provide examples
You are talking about nothing. Max is a complex character because....
1) She has several character traits and interests and is a more fleshed out character than most characters in the medium.
2) She is put in morally complex situations where her more complex moral views come into play.
3) Her character actually develops flaws in the story, most gaming characters have flaws that are readily apparent and do not need to be developed. Max actually has her character flaws develop because of Chloe.
BOTH endings are about sacrifice and accepting the consequences of actions. You are not getting this. And several times throughout the game, this is foreshadowed. Max makes three big decisions that alter the story without you making a choice or having an input in it.
1) She makes the choice herself to go back in time and try to fix Williams death to make Chloe happier. This backfires spectacularly.
2) She goes along with Chloe to try and confront Nathan after finding Rachel. This turns out to be a horrible choice and has terrible consequences.
3) She gives up a promising future in stardom in photography to save Chloe, not willing to except Chloe's fate.
At none of these points where you decide. She decides. These are not just story beats, these are the character making decisions based of her traits and that drives the story. She is a complex character, far more than you Persona examples.
@texasgoldrush: Those arent examples
1) was an accident
2) she was strung along by chloe's will
3) story beat for the relationship between chloe and max, max is supposed to be a good person. She is agreeable so the player doesnt hate themselves as they play
I will literally ban you two f*ckers if you don't shut up, holy f*ck
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush: Those arent examples
1) was an accident
2) she was strung along by chloe's will
3) story beat for the relationship between chloe and max, max is supposed to be a good person. She is agreeable so the player doesnt hate themselves as they play
Those are examples, you just want to to cherry pick and move the goalposts. And your wrong on the counts as well. For 1) it was learning experience about life, for 2) she was strung along only to a point, as she would have not let Chloe take Nathan's life, and 3) that moment has nothing to do with Max being a "good person".
It seems to me that you simply are not grasping the story. A coming of age tale, which Life is Strange is, requires the character development of the protagonist, which actually happens.
Maybe I should just lock the thread
@texasgoldrush: I meant the top 3, not the ones I talked about there. I probably didnt make that clear enough
1) It wasnt a choice on Max's part to go back
2) Again Max being a good person doesnt make her complex, the reason she went out there was the circumstance not her own will
3) Is Max not a good person for doing that? Anyways, still a story beat
I understand the story, hell I like the story, but Max is not a complex character in said story.
@aigis said:
@charizard1605 said:
Maybe I should just lock the thread
:supernut: :thinking:
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush: I meant the top 3, not the ones I talked about there. I probably didnt make that clear enough
1) It wasnt a choice on Max's part to go back
2) Again Max being a good person doesnt make her complex, the reason she went out there was the circumstance not her own will
3) Is Max not a good person for doing that? Anyways, still a story beat
I understand the story, hell I like the story, but Max is not a complex character in said story.
1) It kind of was, and it definitely was when she manipulated the events of the past.
2) No it wasn't. Pay attention to the story.
3) No, her attachment towards Chloe led to this choice. All throughout Polarized, she is latching onto Chloe. It has nothing to do with Max's goodness, but her flaws.
The point of Max is that a good hearted person can make some very bad decisions despite her intentions, and that she has to face the consequences of not only her actions but the outcomes life dishes out. You fail to understand that while Max is indeed good hearted, her actions make her an anti-heroine who has key flaws that drive the story to its devastating conclusion.
@texasgoldrush said:
1) It kind of was, and it definitely was when she manipulated the events of the past.
2) No it wasn't. Pay attention to the story.
3) No, her attachment towards Chloe led to this choice. All throughout Polarized, she is latching onto Chloe. It has nothing to do with Max's goodness, but her flaws.
The point of Max is that a good hearted person can make some very bad decisions despite her intentions, and that she has to face the consequences of not only her actions but the outcomes life dishes out. You fail to understand that while Max is indeed good hearted, her actions make her an anti-heroine who has key flaws that drive the story to its devastating conclusion.
1) it was not, her going to the past in the first place was a mistake. She only did something because she was there in that situation, but she did not premeditate the act
2) no u
3) ya its a story about max and chloe, that doesnt make max inherently complex
She is not the villain, she does not posses malice. And her flaws change depending on your choices
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
1) It kind of was, and it definitely was when she manipulated the events of the past.
2) No it wasn't. Pay attention to the story.
3) No, her attachment towards Chloe led to this choice. All throughout Polarized, she is latching onto Chloe. It has nothing to do with Max's goodness, but her flaws.
The point of Max is that a good hearted person can make some very bad decisions despite her intentions, and that she has to face the consequences of not only her actions but the outcomes life dishes out. You fail to understand that while Max is indeed good hearted, her actions make her an anti-heroine who has key flaws that drive the story to its devastating conclusion.
1) it was not, her going to the past in the first place was a mistake. She only did something because she was there in that situation, but she did not premeditate the act
2) no u
3) ya its a story about max and chloe, that doesnt make max inherently complex
She is not the villain, she does not posses malice. And her flaws change depending on your choices
antagonist =/= villain. In a story with a self conflict, the protagonist is also the antagonist, because that's where the conflict is.
1) She sure did make sure William took the bus instead of drive to pick up Joyce.
2) I did pay attention to the story, she will not let Chloe get revenge of Nathan. She mental dialogues this in the party sequence. But still, its a very bad decision going along with Chloe.
3) When did I say she is inherently complex? Its her development and her traits that make her complex and its her flaws (and Chloe's as well) that drives the story.
@texasgoldrush said:
antagonist =/= villain. In a story with a self conflict, the protagonist is also the antagonist, because that's where the conflict is.
1) She sure did make sure William took the bus instead of drive to pick up Joyce.
2) I did pay attention to the story, she will not let Chloe get revenge of Nathan. She mental dialogues this in the party sequence. But still, its a very bad decision going along with Chloe.
3) When did I say she is inherently complex? Its her development and her traits that make her complex and its her flaws (and Chloe's as well) that drives the story.
The main conflict is not her, its nature itself. She isnt the hostile force
1) And? Not the point
2) Again not the point, would she be following chloe if she wasnt planning on killing him? Probably not
3) Just because she has a personality doesnt make her complex. You fail to give concrete development
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush said:
antagonist =/= villain. In a story with a self conflict, the protagonist is also the antagonist, because that's where the conflict is.
1) She sure did make sure William took the bus instead of drive to pick up Joyce.
2) I did pay attention to the story, she will not let Chloe get revenge of Nathan. She mental dialogues this in the party sequence. But still, its a very bad decision going along with Chloe.
3) When did I say she is inherently complex? Its her development and her traits that make her complex and its her flaws (and Chloe's as well) that drives the story.
The main conflict is not her, its nature itself. She isnt the hostile force
1) And? Not the point
2) Again not the point, would she be following chloe if she wasnt planning on killing him? Probably not
3) Just because she has a personality doesnt make her complex. You fail to give concrete development
Wrong. The main conflict is about her. Notice the scene in the dream with the two Max's, where one attacks the other for manipulating time for her selfish reasons, and not letting go and taking responsibility, while explaining the damage she caused. Max's actions are responsible for the events of the plot, and the more she escalates it, the worse it gets. That's why she is the antagonist as well as the protagonist.
Also, you are seriously trying to argue against clear evidence against your claim in the story? Seriously. Max plainly states that she will not let Chloe take revenge on Nathan after they find Rachel.
You are still not getting it, Max's personality is complex. That's the argument and that is the truth. Seriously, stop debating this.
It shows you have very little grasp of the story. I can tell.
@aigis said:
@texasgoldrush: And I think you have little grasp of the story. Max is not complex. That's the argument and that is the truth. Seriously, stop debating this.
Both facts and opinion consensus suggest otherwise.
Get over it, you are wrong and by being wrong, you showed very little grasp of the story or the character development.
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