Will i enjoy Life is Strange?

Pls, you know you are wrong and by being so wrong it just shows you dont even know what you know because story or development of the character are facts about the game

Lets list Max's qualities and flaws.

She is kind hearted but capable of retaliation, she is introverted but because she likes to observe the world instead of partake in its events, she is mature for her age but falls into traps because of her youth, she is very curious to the point of being nosy, she contemplates decisions and actions before making them, but she can be lead to do hasty things because of Chloe, and Max has a tendency to judge people without fully understanding them. She also has mental disabilities, the closest being ADHD or high end Asperger's, and takes medicine for it. Her interests and likes are more nostalgic and retro than her peers.

And this is all well before her character development develops and changes aspects of her character.

Most if not 99% of gaming characters are easily defined, with two note or three note personalities. This includes characters we claim to be some of the industries best like John Marston. Bioware and Obsidian's characters, same thing. And you think Persona's characters are as deep and complex as Max? The thing about Max (as well as Chloe, especially BTS), unlike video game characters, is that she is realistically written and portrayed, where realistic complexity is necessary. She is complex because the story, settings, and themes require her to be.

You might as well argue that the world is flat and the sun revolves around it.

@texasgoldrush: All the things you listed are personality traits or story beats. Personality =/= complexity.

Kind, nosy, mature introvert who gets into trouble because of her friend chloe. Summed it up for ya.

Says she develops then does not list any developments. good work.

Personality + development = complexity

Second, its more than just Chloe where she gets in trouble.

And now lets list the developments. She becomes more fearless and less of a passive observer as the game goes on, she becomes more and more reliant on fixing things as the story goes on, she develops a priority for Chloe that narrows her focus on the situation, and finally she learns from her mistakes and her misjudgments of people. And Max and Chloe develop eachother, as Chloe is influenced by Max's drive to make her happy and keep her safe, and now realizes how selfish she has been, which allows Max the option to let go of Chloe. Max learns that she cannot fix everything as well, and that the ideal life doesn't happen.

And please, really, name a game character that's as complex as Max or Chloe because you will struggle to find good examples outside of say, some visual novels and Planescape Torment.

ya personality =/= complexity we agree. Complexity is more about scraping beyond the surface anyway

sure, but thats where the nosy part comes in. Really Chloe is the major reason for the major story beats

Nope, she is fearless from the start. You stop murders and have the ability to stand up against people in positions of power from chapter 1. Chloe does develop, their relationship develops, Max does not. She does not come to the realization that her powers are bad though in certain outcomes. And it is never a development in Max either, she is prompted by circumstances and she chooses the lesser of two evils. Thats not complex thought, that is as straight forward as it gets

Anything in persona easy.

Have you been enjoying your normal life?

There is nothing remotely complex about Persona's characters. Due to the large ensemble nature of the games, depth and complexity are sacrificed for quantity. At best, the characters are good morality plays, that's it. To even compare them to the protagonist of LIS or BTS is simply put, earth is flat logic.

You want to talk about game structure, well Persona's structure disallows very deep characters because they have to address a huge cast. So at most they get one arc and re no longer important. LIS's structure requires the protagonist to be deeper and more complex because they explore her character all throughout the game. Nevermind general dialogue and cutscenes, but through diary, objects, and thought dialogue. Once again, LIS requires a complex realistic protagonist because that is what story they are telling.

Yes, Max does stop a murder and can stand up to authority in the first episode, however, her passive personality is still very present. Its when Kate jumps where she starts losing the passiveness. Once again, pay attention to the development. She gets subtle but real development. Hell, her sexuality gets development and changes as the game goes along.

You really seem to not get the storytelling here.

If you're 13-15 year old female, then probably. Otherwise, the dialogue will probably make you want to vomit.

Sounds like someone has never played a persona game and just likes contradicting themselves :P

They dont explore her character really, they explore relationships that Max doesnt develop from due to the nature of the gameplay mechanics

You really seem to not get the storytelling here.

So says the Persona fan whose game has gameplay mechanics and story direction hamper the point the fan is trying to make about complex characterization.

They don't explore Max's character? Seriously, just stop posting. The entire game was an exploration of Max's character and her relationships and views with others, and for BTS, its Chloe.

As for contradicting itself, Persona 5 does that a lot.

Sounds like someone hasnt played a persona game ever :p

The entire game was an exploration of Max's character and her relationships and views with others. Better.

how would you know if you havent played it?

Another thing I would like to point out is that LiS clocks in at about 14 hrs, while P5 is about 95 hrs. So dont worry about the size of the cast, you get to spend time with them. Especially given that half of the game is a social sim

More time with the game =/= more complex characters or development. And no, most of Persona is a classic JRPG grind, gaining extermination points to increase your level of violence. The social sim is actually more limited than you think and so is the role playing. Once again, a large cast means fewer development for each character.

Ummm...Max's relationship with others is guided by her personality and character, which means they have to explore her character. Sorry,if you didn't get that.

I agree. I absolutely hated it and i played the first episode. it was so dull.

no but more time with the game == more time with characters, so your point of not being able to spend time with characters is moot and just shows you dont know what you are talking about when it comes to persona. At least when I criticize LiS I have played the game. Persona is not even a classic JRPG grind, half of the game is social sim and story beats and even in the grind of palaces you get an arc for somebody in your party most of the time. P5 has almost 7 times the amount of time spent with characters than LiS, so the larger cast argument is ignorant.

No you have it backwards, Max's relationship with others is guided by the other characters personality, which means they explore that character.

but max is super C O M P L E X

Say, what do you think about Max?

if by max you mean max payne than he is one of the best and most badass character ever.

otherwise this max of life is strange is teenage student who is solving some mysteries. and i think not a very good character.

straighten this fool out @texasgoldrush, probably doenst even know she likes retro things

Once again, more time with the characters doesn't mean that they are deeper. Time spent with characters =/= depth of the characters. Once again, Persona's huge casts work against the complexity of the characters. This is shown when important characters in the beginning have smaller roles as the story goes on, and really only as side stories. Ann straight up diminishes in importance as P5 goes along. P5 doesn't have the strong consistent deuteragonist because of the need to make the game more ensemble in its cast. Nevermind the blank slate protagonist. Usually the protagonists in stories are the most complex characters in it. Persona games lack even that.

Really Divinity Original Sin II's characters are far more complex than Persona 5's.

Persona does have a grind, and P5 has pacing problems because of it.

Solving mysteries isn't even the most important thing about the story.

How would you know anything when you didnt play the game? Ann gets an arc in the palace, an arc in her social link and is part of the overall arc of being a phantom thief. Lets compare that another character you meat early on in LiS, Warren. Hes there for the whole game, how many arcs does he get? 0.0, he just has a personality of I like Max. Great.

Havent played.

How would you know when you didnt play?

But after the first palace, she loses importance, despite her being one of the "main" phantom thieves. And really Persona 5 is at its best in the first place (and the pyramid palace). It peaks too early. DOS 2 companions have multiple small arcs but a main one that last the entire game, while having role playing aspects where they can turn on you based on your actions. You do not have that in P5.

Warren doesn't have an arc? Wow, are you high?

Persona 5 is a grind, and it gets in the way of its social sim and storytelling. That's one of the major issues outside of its narrative weaknesses.

She is still in the group and bounces off them and she does get moments towards the end, but this is all ignoring that she gets two arcs separate from this. I guess though you wouldnt know so its not all your fault...

Whats warren's arc then? Likes Max, helps Max because he likes her, gets drunk because Max doesnt hang out with him, but still likes Max, still likes Max and knows everything all of a sudden. Hey we went full circle, he likes Max still

How would you know if you havent played

now I know you havent played the game :p

But she still isn't a important character except for the beginning. Her character is the victim of the ensemble cast style of storytelling where each character is important at different times. This dilutes the cast individually, because you have to spread out your characterization.

Life is Strange on the other hand is not an ensemble cast, most of the focus is on the three main girls and the story revolves around them. This means that you have two very complex characters that the games revolve around (Max and Chloe; Chloe and Rachel). The rest of the cast have their arcs though, and have multiple paths based on your choices. Warren's may be the must subtle of the arcs actually, while he is very much a static character, a character arc is not all about character development.

To even think that Persona characters can match the depth and complexity of Max, Chloe, and Rachel is foolish. Its an earth is flat thought. So you are basically saying an ensemble cast member is deeper and complex than a protagonist whose world and gameplay revolve around her? That has no logic. That is simply pure fanboyism.

I have played Persona 5, they have two stand out palaces, Kamoshida's castle and Futaba's pyramid, where the height of the story quality is. But than P5 undermines its themes and messages with idiotic scenes, like Yusuke's unchecked harassment of Ann, while its confused narrative collapses because it doesn't know what it wants to be about.

@texasgoldrush: That argument doesnt work because it assumes a. you dont have enough time to spend with everyone and b. they need to be developing during the whole game.

Rachel is a dead girl that wanted to be famous, come on lol, she has no depth. She is a plot device. "The rest of the cast have their arcs though, and have multiple paths based on your choices.", just like Max who isnt complex.

ok now the next bit I really want to analyze her cause its so good;

Warren's may be the must subtle of the arcs actually, while he is very much a static character

Warren is static and not complex? Wow, are you high?

a character arc is not all about character development

No that is the entire purpose of a character arc and it boggles my mind that you even said that. Next youre going to tell me the earth is flat

Ummmm....I am talking Before The Storm where Rachel is the deuteragonist and three years before her death. Read what I said again. Rachel is an actual character in the prequel.

"No that is the entire purpose of a character arc and it boggles my mind that you even said that"

No it isn't. There are many different ways a character arc can be used. Because Warren is a static, not a dynamic character, his arc (which really is Max's arc in regards to him) is more about his actions in the story in regards to Max and about Max's complex relationship with him, which is the aspect that does transform in the story.

As for your first statement, limitations exist, they should always be assumed and the reality is that more characters tend to shrink the amount of characterization per character. You cannot make a limitless game or story. You have to pick and choose, especially with game development. And characters that do not develop with the full length of the story become more minor characters instead of major characters. Games with large ensemble casts have to choose between two things, make a character or two more important than everyone else and just have lots of characters but only a few important ones, like Suikoden games, which have 4 or 5 major characters and 100 minor ones OR try to even out the characterization which dilutes all the characters, which Persona games do, especially P5. While Persona characters all have arcs, they are not as complex as major characters in other story based games.

Ummm.... why are you talking about BTS when we arent talking about it and I have stated before I havent played it?

No it is a literal definition of a character arc, that it develops a character lol. THE LITERAL DEFINITION

What you are describing is not a character arc, its called just being a character in a story... Characters can be complex and relationships can be complex, but the two are not dependent on each other. Their relationship can be considered complex (even though that isnt either) while the characters themselves are not complex.

You choose who to spend time with and develop more, the large cast logic is a harsh generalization. And there is even tiering to the characters, not everyone is a phantom thief.

"And characters that do not develop with the full length of the story become more minor characters instead of major characters"

just because characters arent developing doesnt mean they arent present, just look at LiS

Because BTS matters and generally has the same format as the original, but with Chloe and Rachel instead of Max and Chloe. And it too, beats Persona 5's characters in complexity.

Which is why I said its actually Max's arc involving Warren, read what I said again. Notice how much of the game is guided by Max's character.

Once again, your argument falls apart because you are debating what isn't up for debate. The simple fact is that the Life is Strange franchise's main characters, Max, Chloe, and now Rachel are far more complex than Persona 5's characters. You keep trying to argue around this. Once again, how the game is structured, Persona 5 is at a disadvantage when it comes to matching LIS and BTS, which fleshes out their main characters in many different ways while P5 has limitations (and actual no real main character but an avatar). Nevermind the fact that LIS is protagonist centric and P5 is ensemble cast. The large cast logic isn't harsh, its the truth.

I said I dont know anything about it though, im only judging LiS. So anything in that is moot to me.

I will quote you:

you cant backpedal after saying nonsense stuff like that. You said Warren had an arc, then said character arcs arent about development, and are now saying there is no arc? Keep a straight story dude, its hard to keep up with so much bs.

That fact still remains that you never talk about why Max is a complex character. Here let me show you how its done:

This is Himiko Yumeno from Danganronpa V3 that just came out last month. She is a very talent magician, but when you meet her she claims that all her tricks are real magic. At first glance it would appear that she is just a kid creating a fiction and she acts very lazy throughout the story, commonly describing things as "a pain". These things make up her personality, this does not make her a complex character.

What does make her complex then?

For that there is two things we can examine. First being the narrative of her magic being real. At first glance you think she believes she is magical as she makes references to using her powers all the time, but this is not true upon further examination. Himiko does not believe she is magical, but she wants everyone to believe she is. Why is this? When she performs in front of people, she wants them to believe in magic and smile when they see her, just like her master had done for her when she first started. Everything is an act to make people happy.

Second part is her character arc. Her lazy attitude made her cold towards other people as she didnt want to put the effort in to be engaged with others. One person was really interested in being her friend, but was very upbeat causing Himiko to ignore them until that person was killed. Himiko had lost the person who cared about her the most in the group, but she had only been cold to her. She then realized that she cannot act they way anymore because now that her friend wasnt there, all she wanted to do was talk to them. From then on she wouldnt say that anything was a pain and would face life the way her friend did, with upbeat attitude.

Himiko grew as a character and had more to her than what you first saw when you met her. These things make her a complex character. Your turn.

@aigis said:

I said I dont know anything about it though, im only judging LiS. So anything in that is moot to me.

I will quote you:

@texasgoldrush said:

Warren doesn't have an arc? Wow, are you high?

@texasgoldrush said:

a character arc is not all about character development.

@texasgoldrush said:

its actually Max's arc involving Warren

you cant backpedal after saying nonsense stuff like that. You said Warren had an arc, then said character arcs arent about development, and are now saying there is no arc? Keep a straight story dude, its hard to keep up with so much bs.

That fact still remains that you never talk about why Max is a complex character. Here let me show you how its done:

This is Himiko Yumeno from Danganronpa V3 that just came out last month. She is a very talent magician, but when you meet her she claims that all her tricks are real magic. At first glance it would appear that she is just a kid creating a fiction and she acts very lazy throughout the story, commonly describing things as "a pain". These things make up her personality, this does not make her a complex character.

What does make her complex then?

For that there is two things we can examine. First being the narrative of her magic being real. At first glance you think she believes she is magical as she makes references to using her powers all the time, but this is not true upon further examination. Himiko does not believe she is magical, but she wants everyone to believe she is. Why is this? When she performs in front of people, she wants them to believe in magic and smile when they see her, just like her master had done for her when she first started. Everything is an act to make people happy.

Second part is her character arc. Her lazy attitude made her cold towards other people as she didnt want to put the effort in to be engaged with others. One person was really interested in being her friend, but was very upbeat causing Himiko to ignore them until that person was killed. Himiko had lost the person who cared about her the most in the group, but she had only been cold to her. She then realized that she cannot act they way anymore because now that her friend wasnt there, all she wanted to do was talk to them. From then on she wouldnt say that anything was a pain and would face life the way her friend did, with upbeat attitude.

Himiko grew as a character and had more to her than what you first saw when you met her. These things make her a complex character. Your turn.

Did not backpedal. I can still say that Warren does subtly change (or at least is influenced) through Max, he just is more static than the rest of the cast (as his personality is intensified, instead of changed) and that his character does much more for Max's arc.

Also, not all character arcs mean a change in character.....Warren may very well be an example of "non-transformable growth" as his personality is intensified, not changed, through the encouragement of Max.

https://narrativefirst.com/vault/what-character-arc-really-means

Second over and over I did talk about how Max is a complex character, you simply weren't paying attention.

Yes you did backpedal I even quoted all of it for so it would be easy for you.

Firstly, yes it does

Secondly, "non-transformable growth" is a contradiction and doesnt exist. You cannot grow by staying the same.

Thirdly, his personality is not intensified

Fourthly, Max doesnt really encourage him, if anything she ignores him for a large portion of the game

Fifth, that site means nothing to me. Here is a quote from wiki

A character arc is the transformation or inner journey of a character over the course of a story. If a story has a character arc, the character begins as one sort of person and gradually transforms into a different sort of person in response to changing developments in the story.

I want you to do it coherently in a nice and summarized way like I have for the amazing Himiko. Pls I am waiting

Wrong and wrong and wrong and wrong.

First, a character whose qualities are intensified through events is character development. Its the most subtle from of it, but it is character development and it is a character arc. That takes out your first two points. There is a difference between a change arc and a growth/shift arc.

Second, Warren's personality is indeed intensified, he clings on to Max more and more as the game goes along, especially when they call eachother heroes.

Next, Max does encourage him. I guess you didn't pay attention to the dialogue or her SMS messages. She DOES not ignore him, and she actually can egg him on.

And lastly, its no use debating, because your position is basically "the world is flat" and wrong on any level. Once again, saying Max isn't complex and comparing persona characters to her is just foolish. Max as a character got the acclaim she gets because she is complex and realistic.

one hundred percent exactamundo

Cause there is a change, but Warren exhibits no changes. Change growth and shift are all things where you are one thing and become another.

He is always clinging from chapter 1, he gets beaten up for her. There is no change from that

Max does not go ape. Warren even goes into a drunk depression

That sounds like the argument of someone who cant explain themselves in a eloquent manner. Honestly it probably took more effort to dodge the question than to do it

Change =/= growth. In fact they are completely different character arcs. A growth arc can even be of a character that has a trait, difficulties cause him to struggle in keeping that trait, overcomes the struggle, and in the end, keep the trait.

Yes, Warren is clingy to her before episode 1, but there relationship and friendship is strengthened throughout the game. Nevermind he gathered the strength to kick the crap out of Nathan in Episode 4. Once again, subtle character development. His development doesn't pop out like other characters in the game, but its there. Max's relationship with him also develops no matter your choices. Warren's arc can be called a flat or steadfast arc, which is in general, part of the growth arc. He doesn't change, but he clearly grows.

Warren doesn't go into a drunk depression, and he, when drunk, was reacting to the fights with Nathan, not Max rejecting her. Once again, you are wrong.

If you are actually going to debate, why don't you actually state factual things about the storytelling. It just proves to me you just don't get it. Its not about elegance, its about being right.

Change =/= growth inherently, but change can == growth. Thats not growth either, thats staying exactly the same and not developing while facing story beats.

Chapter 1, fights Nathan. Chapter 4, fights Nathan. oooooooo. "He doesn't change, but he clearly grows." a contradiction.

I give you that one, my bad. Still, go ape!

eloquent, google it. State your facts then, I just want your argument. Just give me a paragraph of why Max is complex. Describe her character arc and we can be done

Several experts of literature prove you wrong. The aspect of character not wavering when trouble befalls him or her has always been part of character development and character arc writing. The character development basically is how he or she didn't change (usually for the worse), but still he or she becomes wiser or shifts his or her views.

http://thanetwriters.com/essay/characters/the-four-different-types-of-character-arc/

Warren is an example of #2.

In Episode 4, Nathan pulls a gun on Warren, which raises the stakes far past the fight in Episode 1. It wasn't just a simple fight. Once again, you are missed the point, which is a clear escalation of tension. The difference of outcomes in both the first episode scuffle and the fourth episode show how Warren got stronger as a character in his development.

I just gave you several posts on how I explained Max's complexity, and how the entire game is based around her complexity and how it requires it. Sorry, but I am not going to repeat myself, because you on and on do not get the facts right about the game.

@texasgoldrush:

1. Transformation

Essentially, the ‘hero’s journey’ utilises an often-mystical ‘transformation’ arc to follow a protagonist who undergoes a significant change in their personality from an unlikely underdog into a lauded and successful individual.

2. Maturity

A ‘maturity’ arc is ultimately defined by personal growth in the face of external factors

3. Alteration

An ‘alteration’ arc is perhaps the most subtle of character arcs, similar to a ‘maturity’ arc in the sense that it focuses on telling a story where a protagonist undergoes only a modest shift in their attitudes by the novel’s closure.

4. Decline

A ‘decline’ arc does exactly what it says on the tin – it follows a character (who may or may not possess flaws and/or personal failings) who makes poor choices which ultimately dooms them, jeopardising either themselves or others in due process. Stories like this tend to be tragedies, following a character as they fall from grace, either by way of madness, or death.

All of those say the character has to change... Each one. Youre last one was not an expert, "Non-transformable growth" is a contradiction and does not exist.

Warren does not grow in maturity. He is the same maturity the whole time, he is as you said "static".

Warren sucker punched him with a headbutt, thats not growing in maturity, nor does it show escalation. It just shows that warren wasnt on the receiving end this time (most in part due to him getting the first hit). Mostly its just mirror of chapter 1 with the roles reversed, if anything its not warren's growth as he engages with fighting in both cases (this time he just learns to not get sucker punched by sucker punching, thats not growth, thats called not being a moron if your character is not a moron), but nathan turning into a bitch.

again, sounds like someone who doesnt know what they are talking about. All your posts are scattered, a lot of them are wrong, a lot of them contradict each other. I just want a concise explanation on why Max is complex like what I had shown you. It didnt take me that long to make, it was really easy because I knew what I had to cover. So you refusing to do it while still writing so much just shows to me you cant make a eloquent argument because you dont know how to convey that Max is a complex character. Ill take that as a win I guess

?

Wow, did you just selectively copy and paste from the source and try to prove your point? Lets get to the part you missed shall we.

2. Maturity

A ‘maturity’ arc is ultimately defined by personal growth in the face of external factors, as opposed to the radical transformative change stemming from inner qualities in the previous arc. A novel which uses a ‘maturity’ arc will depict a protagonist facing challenges in their environment which force them to overcome their demons/disadvantages to, ultimately, become a better person.

By addressing personal faults or hang-ups, for example, a protagonist in a ‘maturity’ arc will not tend to evolve into a significantly different character whatsoever. In fact, they’ll more or less remain the same by the end of story, albeit benefiting from a realization that they’ve learned from their earlier challenges and grown and matured as a result.

-------------------------

Once again, you are playing with the facts to try and prove a point, when the facts as a whole are clearly against your point. You are cherry picking. You didn't copy the whole thing because it proves I am right.

You are no longer worth debating or listening to, you have clearly shown to play with the facts and have clearly shown that you got the story wrong and also simply put, do not understand it (like Warren's subtle character development). And you still ignore that I have already explained how Max is complex before her development, you choose to ignore this.

It's an amazing game. I you like a good story and don't mind minimal gameplay, yes, you should try it.

then play the prequel. So far its just as good.

@texasgoldrush: Nice, i will, but...too many games.

Bought SOMA and Wolfenstein 2 this week. So far both are fantastic.

The last episode and the Max bonus episode isn't out yet, so waiting is legit. I think many fans are waiting until its complete anyway. They really do not like the episodic format and hopefully DONTNODs followup ditches it.

grown and matured is change... Dont bold what proves me right...

I was trying to be concise, something you could learn to do. As well as read, reading is a useful skill too

Explain it again to me in a concise manner is all im asking for? Is it that hard? Are you really incapable of doing a simple task? You have shown that you cannot hold a simple argument and have backpedaled from your lunacy numerous times, so ya I need a summery. Warren does not develop, you yourself have called him static. I started out liking LiS, but you are really making me dislike it now because your acting like a maniac

No, you are willfully ignoring any fact that disproves your argument.

Static characters can have character arcs too, but once again, they are growth or shift arcs. Dynamic characters have change or fall arcs.

pot calling kettle.

the only who is ignorant of facts is you if you believe that. Static characters dont grow, hence why they are static. This is getting sad. At least I accept when I made a mistake (ex: warren being drunk), you just dig that hole deeper

@aigis said:

@texasgoldrush said:

No, you are willfully ignoring any fact that disproves your argument.

Static characters can have character arcs too, but once again, they are growth or shift arcs. Dynamic characters have change or fall arcs.

pot calling kettle.

the only who is ignorant of facts is you if you believe that. Static characters dont grow, hence why they are static. This is getting sad. At least I accept when I made a mistake (ex: warren being drunk), you just dig that hole deeper

Yet you can make character arcs for them.

https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/flat-character-arc-1/

The key to flat or static character arcs is that they resist the conditions that can make them change, usually for the worse. These arcs are once again, growth arcs or shift arcs (which it seems Chloe in BTS undergoes).

Wrong again.

And no, you made far more false statements than being wrong as to why Warren is drunk. Remember you said that Max ignores Warren through most of the game. That's hugely wrong. Quite the opposite. The fact is while Warren's personality stays the same, he grows as a character through Max. Same with the rest of the cast.

yes, their personalities stay the same, but their resolve changes. There has to be a change. I can throw up way more websites that say I am correct than you can cherry pick from bloggers. And you dont even do a good job of that

In comparison to a positive change arc, the difference in a flat character arc’s Second Act is that the emphasis is not on the protagonist’s discovering and confronting his own inner misconceptions

There is a change in the protag, they cannot stay static. Just admit you made a mistake and move on, this is so sad.

Like I dont get why you were fighting me so hard on this point dude. I havent really been looking because it should be something so obvious to people, but here you go, check f**king mate straight from the dictionary, a credible source. Not something on a site nobody has ever heard of.

She leaves him for chloe when he gets pounded, never goes ape, and she does abandon drunk warren to go stop chloe from killing people. That is what im referring to. Thats not a lie, if im guilty of anything its exaggerating. But really Max only really calls upon Warren when she needs something, but you can never go ape, poor warren. Also Warren is static, no growth, youre words not mine.

@aigis said:

@texasgoldrush said:

Yet you can make character arcs for them.

https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/flat-character-arc-1/

The key to flat or static character arcs is that they resist the conditions that can make them change, usually for the worse. These arcs are once again, growth arcs or shift arcs (which it seems Chloe in BTS undergoes).

yes, their personalities stay the same, but their resolve changes. There has to be a change. I can throw up way more websites that say I am correct than you can cherry pick from bloggers. And you dont even do a good job of that

In comparison to a positive change arc, the difference in a flat character arc’s Second Act is that the emphasis is not on the protagonist’s discovering and confronting his own inner misconceptions

There is a change in the protag, they cannot stay static. Just admit you made a mistake and move on, this is so sad.

Like I dont get why you were fighting me so hard on this point dude. I havent really been looking because it should be something so obvious to people, but here you go, check f**king mate straight from the dictionary, a credible source. Not something on a site nobody has ever heard of.

@texasgoldrush said:

And no, you made far more false statements than being wrong as to why Warren is drunk. Remember you said that Max ignores Warren through most of the game. That's hugely wrong. Quite the opposite. The fact is while Warren's personality stays the same, he grows as a character through Max. Same with the rest of the cast.

She leaves him for chloe when he gets pounded, never goes ape, and she does abandon drunk warren to go stop chloe from killing people. That is what im referring to. Thats not a lie, if im guilty of anything its exaggerating. But really Max only really calls upon Warren when she needs something, but you can never go ape, poor warren. Also Warren is static, no growth, youre words not mine.

Sorry, but you have been proven wrong. Multiple sources of screenwriters and literary experts prove you wrong. Once again, flat character arcs deal with the development of the protagonist, its just deals with how they don't change when they could have (for usually the worst). That's still character development, but its far more subtle.

You seem to not grasp subtlety, it shows.

And your last statement really shows that you simply put, did not follow LIS's story well.

The ************* dictionary, the ************* dictionary. All your sources bow down to mine and all your sources corroborated me. They all talk about a change. The dictionary, the thing thats only job is to define things, is more credible than your blog, quit acting like a moron

... so development...

Youre thinking of tragedies, but in the wrong way. Usually its a fall from grace where they become sad sacks by the end (ex: oedipus rex). Warren is not of this category, he is a static character as you have said and it has nothing to do with subtlety.

I can, I even wrote you a whole thing on why Himiko is great which you dont seem to appreciate </3

hey, youre words not mine