Microsoft have been doing this for years but I received games 4 days early from shopto before and got away with it but for a game like GTA I can understand as I'm sure they send them out at the right time so they get there on release or maybe a day before at the earliest.
[QUOTE="Cheleman"]You should wait. Like the rest of us. Or ar the very least play it offline. As a sign of consideration to those of us that do have to wait.Pffrbt
Why would you even care if other people play it early. Do you vicariously live through other people's enjoyment of a game? Why should they care if you cant play it?
First of all, stop making up words.
Second, whats the point in keeping everyone else waiting when the streetdate's already been broken?
And third, they should because if MS or Sony found out they've been playing the game early, then its bye bye console for them :(
Wow MS is really the most anti-consumer company in the gaming industry. In America it is normal for companies to treat people like shit, but everywhere else people expect better treatment.
53% complete after 2 days of play about 30 ish hours total gameplay playing on PS3 I have not been banned yet maybe just Microsoft doing it. Legit copys of the game have been out for about 4 days now, Mine is legit and I got it from a small computer shop in Cambridge run by a guy that would diss out a copy for 100 quid.Â
53% complete after 2 days of play about 30 ish hours total gameplay playing on PS3 I have not been banned yet maybe just Microsoft doing it. Legit copys of the game have been out for about 4 days now, Mine is legit and I got it from a small computer shop in Cambridge run by a guy that would diss out a copy for 100 quid.Â
Tidemoo
you don't get it do you. getting teh game before the release date is not legit. its not meant to happen.
I think this is disgusting. Banning people because they are playing on a legit console with a legit copy of the game. If they got it early don't blame them and then ban them it's not their fault they got it in the post early...What are they ment to do have it sitting by their TV until tuesday.
I am getting the 360 version of the game but microsoft latley has been annoying me with all of their choices they have made and hey silly actions they have taken.Â
Probably mistake them with pirated copies since those always leak,legaly they can't ban some one who play a game early if the game is legal,so i think they will unban the poor souls after it is confirmed that the game are legit.
53% complete after 2 days of play about 30 ish hours total gameplay playing on PS3 I have not been banned yet maybe just Microsoft doing it. Legit copys of the game have been out for about 4 days now, Mine is legit and I got it from a small computer shop in Cambridge run by a guy that would diss out a copy for 100 quid.Â
MBirdy88
you don't get it do you. getting teh game before the release date is not legit. its not meant to happen. Someone call the cops!
53% complete after 2 days of play about 30 ish hours total gameplay playing on PS3 I have not been banned yet maybe just Microsoft doing it. Legit copys of the game have been out for about 4 days now, Mine is legit and I got it from a small computer shop in Cambridge run by a guy that would diss out a copy for 100 quid.Â
MBirdy88
you don't get it do you. getting teh game before the release date is not legit. its not meant to happen. Boo hoo.
53% complete after 2 days of play about 30 ish hours total gameplay playing on PS3 I have not been banned yet maybe just Microsoft doing it. Legit copys of the game have been out for about 4 days now, Mine is legit and I got it from a small computer shop in Cambridge run by a guy that would diss out a copy for 100 quid.Â
KungfuKitten
you don't get it do you. getting teh game before the release date is not legit. its not meant to happen. Boo hoo. So quick to judge other forms of illegal activity... yet ok with this, typical self-entitlement.
you don't get it do you. getting teh game before the release date is not legit. its not meant to happen.MBirdy88
Â
It hapen all the time and more with games that you get by mail,they tend to send a few days early so that you get your copy on time,and many times it arrives 1 or 2 days before streeet date and there is nothing ilegal about that you bought that game legaly,it was the store fault not yours.
[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"][QUOTE="MBirdy88"] you don't get it do you. getting teh game before the release date is not legit. its not meant to happen.MBirdy88
Boo hoo. So quick to judge other forms of illegal activity... yet ok with this, typical self-entitlement. WTF is wrong with you...
Watch out reviewers, your console just might be accidentally banned. Kjranu
negative, they get dispsation on the situation and connect to the developer version of XBL or on a list of gamertags that are allowed to use it.Pretty sure Jim Sterling posted on twitter the other night that a load of settings got changed so he can review it im under the assumption this means he's on the dev version and would make sense in this case. The moral of the story is, you have it before its officialy released its illegal and breaking the agreement between you and the company providing the product AND the distributor and the manufacturer.Release dates are kinda there for a reason and in this case rockstar dont wany any stram to be let out of the hype train before tuesday.
The article says MS are banning people playing leaked copies and uploading videos, where does it say legitimate early players are being banned? If you have a legit copy and you aren't putting shit up all over Youtube I'm sure you will be fine.
So quick to judge other forms of illegal activity... yet ok with this, typical self-entitlement. WTF is wrong with you... I'm wondering that myself. So your telling me that I have brought a legit console and a legit copy of the game but because the store has decided to send out that game early I am doing something Illegal. Don't be such a teachers pet.
So quick to judge other forms of illegal activity... yet ok with this, typical self-entitlement. WTF is wrong with you... Just pointing out hypocrisy. "Its ok if developers don't get money because i got it from a store, its ok if I have access to a game early even though its illegal to retail before official release date because the store did it" all is fine in entitlement land. that "little man" afterall.
[QUOTE="Kjranu"]Watch out reviewers, your console just might be accidentally banned. razgriz_101
negative, they get dispsation on the situation and connect to the developer version of XBL or on a list of gamertags that are allowed to use it.Pretty sure Jim Sterling posted on twitter the other night that a load of settings got changed so he can review it im under the assumption this means he's on the dev version and would make sense in this case. The moral of the story is, you have it before its officialy released its illegal and breaking the agreement between you and the company providing the product AND the distributor and the manufacturer.Release dates are kinda there for a reason and in this case rockstar dont wany any stram to be let out of the hype train before tuesday. And this is only taken seriously and is only a problem with the Microsoft corporate. I take offence. They shouldn't be taking money from their customers so eagerly. If the consumer would pay attention to all laws and regulations, then these companies would not be able to function. Many of their advertising is false and deceptive, not all required steps and requirements are clear and upfront, etc. If MS wants to play that game, then they will lose out on a lot of money and influence.
[QUOTE="MBirdy88"] So quick to judge other forms of illegal activity... yet ok with this, typical self-entitlement.MBirdy88
WTF is wrong with you... Just pointing out hypocrisy. "Its ok if developers don't get money because i got it from a store, its ok if I have access to a game early even though its illegal to retail before official release date because the store did it" all is fine in entitlement land. that "little man" afterall. You're one to talk. Self entitlement? I don't mind people playing games early if they put down their money. You do. Does it hurt that bad? It never used to. You and MS are the exception here. You two are the real issue here, the problem makers. Causing problems for people who paid **** money for their **** games. Because what? Because they can play a videogame earlier than you do? MS is treating their customer as if they're some kind of dictators and you talk about entitlement? This kind of treatment is not normal where I live. I hope they lose so much money to the other companies that actually give a **** about what they are doing that they will avoid gaming like the plague. What good is this gonna do Birdy? The parents and children getting these games early of course they are going to play it. They are not going to look up a lawbook with dad and say Oh gosh according to this paragraph on page 112 this is not legal. It's not going to help anyone. Punish the retailers not the people who get these games early. Withold their shipments or whatever. This is just not gonna work, like ever. There's nothing positive about this. MS are being total dicks again, like they never learn. They made that '180' but they haven't changed one bit. Just a hoax. It's a horrible company I want them out of gaming.
[QUOTE="razgriz_101"][QUOTE="Kjranu"]Watch out reviewers, your console just might be accidentally banned. KungfuKitten
negative, they get dispsation on the situation and connect to the developer version of XBL or on a list of gamertags that are allowed to use it.Pretty sure Jim Sterling posted on twitter the other night that a load of settings got changed so he can review it im under the assumption this means he's on the dev version and would make sense in this case. The moral of the story is, you have it before its officialy released its illegal and breaking the agreement between you and the company providing the product AND the distributor and the manufacturer.Release dates are kinda there for a reason and in this case rockstar dont wany any stram to be let out of the hype train before tuesday. And this is only taken seriously and is only a problem with the Microsoft corporate. I take offence. They shouldn't be taking money from their customers so eagerly. If the consumer would pay attention to all laws and regulations, then these companies would not be able to function. Many of their advertising is false and deceptive, not all required steps and requirements are clear and upfront, etc. If MS wants to play that game, then they will lose out on a lot of money and influence. No doubt Sony will start bans aswell, Rockstar are the ones calling the shot with the product not MS, MS are only keeping themselves right as to not incite a lawsuite by Rockstar etc. They wont bother you if you go and disconnect from live and play it, its a sensible option to be fair the only people getting caught are the ones who are moronic enough to plaster their gamertag on youtube and upload footage, MS is only doing their part in keeping leaks down to be fair. Literally a video can get posted and 10min later it will be gone due to copyright infringement claims by take 2.
[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"][QUOTE="razgriz_101"] negative, they get dispsation on the situation and connect to the developer version of XBL or on a list of gamertags that are allowed to use it.Pretty sure Jim Sterling posted on twitter the other night that a load of settings got changed so he can review it im under the assumption this means he's on the dev version and would make sense in this case. The moral of the story is, you have it before its officialy released its illegal and breaking the agreement between you and the company providing the product AND the distributor and the manufacturer.Release dates are kinda there for a reason and in this case rockstar dont wany any stram to be let out of the hype train before tuesday.razgriz_101
And this is only taken seriously and is only a problem with the Microsoft corporate. I take offence. They shouldn't be taking money from their customers so eagerly. If the consumer would pay attention to all laws and regulations, then these companies would not be able to function. Many of their advertising is false and deceptive, not all required steps and requirements are clear and upfront, etc. If MS wants to play that game, then they will lose out on a lot of money and influence. No doubt Sony will start bans aswell, Rockstar are the ones calling the shot with the product not MS, MS are only keeping themselves right as to not incite a lawsuite by Rockstar etc. They wont bother you if you go and disconnect from live and play it, its a sensible option to be fair the only people getting caught are the ones who are moronic enough to plaster their gamertag on youtube and upload footage, MS is only doing their part in keeping leaks down to be fair. Literally a video can get posted and 10min later it will be gone due to copyright infringement claims by take 2. I'm sorry Birdy he doesn't deserve that either but since when do videogames have to be more about the law than about buying something and playing it? It's just crazy how low videogames have fallen in such a short amount of time due to companies like MS. You need to study the law before you play a game or you might get fined or your house searched or you lose your stuff. And if that happens don't count on anybody's sympathy because you should have known everything. It's all there somewhere on the internet for us all to know, so we should. I'm concerned that all these bad business tactics are making the value of a videogame drop like a rock. Convenience and reliability matter a lot to the gaming customers. It's like these companies don't want to sell. Like they just don't know what on Earth they are doing with this industry. It pisses me off to no end.
Their own fault for being stupid enough to play the same while connected to Live. MS cannot "know" they are legitimate copies. They assume, since the game is being played before street date, that it is a pirated copy, and ban accordingly. Again, see my first point.
[QUOTE="Cheleman"]You should wait. Like the rest of us. Or ar the very least play it offline. As a sign of consideration to those of us that do have to wait.Pffrbt
Why would you even care if other people play it early. Do you vicariously live through other people's enjoyment of a game? Why should they care if you cant play it?
we don't care about people playing it early, it's the inevitible spoilers that usually come with something like this
I think this is disgusting. Banning people because they are playing on a legit console with a legit copy of the game. If they got it early don't blame them and then ban them it's not their fault they got it in the post early...What are they ment to do have it sitting by their TV until tuesday.
I am getting the 360 version of the game but microsoft latley has been annoying me with all of their choices they have made and hey silly actions they have taken.Â
Theres a simple solution, dont buy anythin xbox. Speak with yo wallet and MS will listen, moaning on an internet forum MS doesnt give a dam about will make no difference at all.
[QUOTE="razgriz_101"][QUOTE="KungfuKitten"][QUOTE="razgriz_101"] negative, they get dispsation on the situation and connect to the developer version of XBL or on a list of gamertags that are allowed to use it.Pretty sure Jim Sterling posted on twitter the other night that a load of settings got changed so he can review it im under the assumption this means he's on the dev version and would make sense in this case. The moral of the story is, you have it before its officialy released its illegal and breaking the agreement between you and the company providing the product AND the distributor and the manufacturer.Release dates are kinda there for a reason and in this case rockstar dont wany any stram to be let out of the hype train before tuesday.KungfuKitten
And this is only taken seriously and is only a problem with the Microsoft corporate. I take offence. They shouldn't be taking money from their customers so eagerly. If the consumer would pay attention to all laws and regulations, then these companies would not be able to function. Many of their advertising is false and deceptive, not all required steps and requirements are clear and upfront, etc. If MS wants to play that game, then they will lose out on a lot of money and influence. No doubt Sony will start bans aswell, Rockstar are the ones calling the shot with the product not MS, MS are only keeping themselves right as to not incite a lawsuite by Rockstar etc. They wont bother you if you go and disconnect from live and play it, its a sensible option to be fair the only people getting caught are the ones who are moronic enough to plaster their gamertag on youtube and upload footage, MS is only doing their part in keeping leaks down to be fair. Literally a video can get posted and 10min later it will be gone due to copyright infringement claims by take 2. I'm sorry Birdy he doesn't deserve that either but since when do videogames have to be more about the law than about buying something and playing it? It's just crazy how low videogames have fallen in such a short amount of time due to companies like MS. You need to study the law before you play a game or you might get fined or your house searched or you lose your stuff. And if that happens don't count on anybody's sympathy because you should have known everything. It's all there somewhere on the internet for us all to know, so we should. I'm concerned that all these bad business tactics are making the value of a videogame drop like a rock. Convenience and reliability matter a lot to the gaming customers. It's like these companies don't want to sell. Like they just don't know what on Earth they are doing with this industry. It pisses me off to no end.[/QUOTE you break the release date you are opening yourself up to lawsuits, playing it before the release without permission is also opening yourself up to lawsuits cause in theoretical terms it can be classified as breaking an NDA type agreement. theres a release date for a reason. stop trying to turn this into another topic where people rag on MS, this isnt the only industry this happens in i remember there being a big fallout with peavey and the british distro of the 6505 being released early in our territiories.Not to mention it comes down to makign sure that everyone has the stock and the levels are right thus release dates are there to ensure the product will be readily available. I work in the food industry sure a different ball game but the release strategy holds the same you ship out and ensure the stock is at a level thats good enough to meet demand. so im gonna say MS is in the right here, sure that will piss you off but what they did was right NOT to mentino the article states no point about these actually being legal copies and not some torrented stuff off PB that silly people got caught with. I personally think its fair to ban them if they are going to leak the game for people makes them all think twice some of us want to open the game on tuesday and not be spoiled 3 days before it by some jackoff who thinks he's doing us all a favour.
[QUOTE="razgriz_101"][QUOTE="KungfuKitten"] And this is only taken seriously and is only a problem with the Microsoft corporate. I take offence. They shouldn't be taking money from their customers so eagerly. If the consumer would pay attention to all laws and regulations, then these companies would not be able to function. Many of their advertising is false and deceptive, not all required steps and requirements are clear and upfront, etc. If MS wants to play that game, then they will lose out on a lot of money and influence.KungfuKitten
No doubt Sony will start bans aswell, Rockstar are the ones calling the shot with the product not MS, MS are only keeping themselves right as to not incite a lawsuite by Rockstar etc. They wont bother you if you go and disconnect from live and play it, its a sensible option to be fair the only people getting caught are the ones who are moronic enough to plaster their gamertag on youtube and upload footage, MS is only doing their part in keeping leaks down to be fair. Literally a video can get posted and 10min later it will be gone due to copyright infringement claims by take 2. I'm sorry Birdy he doesn't deserve that either but since when do videogames have to be more about the law than about buying something and playing it? It's just crazy how low videogames have fallen in such a short amount of time due to companies like MS. You need to study the law before you play a game or you might get fined or your house searched or you lose your stuff. And if that happens don't count on anybody's sympathy because you should have known everything. It's all there somewhere on the internet for us all to know, so we should. I'm concerned that all these bad business tactics are making the value of a videogame drop like a rock. Convenience and reliability matter a lot to the gaming customers. It's like these companies don't want to sell. Like they just don't know what on Earth they are doing with this industry. It pisses me off to no end.i get what you are saying but it's not really MS fault,the rule was there Before the original xbox even released over here shops would refuse to sell games before there release date, it's only in the last couple of years that shops have decided to flout that rule. as somebody else posted, MS have no real well to tell whether they are legitimate or pirated copies so they have to assume that anybody playing it before the street date is playing a pirated copy, better to be safe than Sorry so to speak. It's Piracy thats to blame for the way things are with street release dates. i do feel however that the release date should be the Date the game is actually in store, you know like 'hey guys , we got it to stores a week earlier so we are moving the release date closer'. they need to be more flexible and fluid with there release dates instead of having there mind set on a set release date, if the game releases early they should allow EVERY store to sell it early.
[QUOTE="Kjranu"]Watch out reviewers, your console just might be accidentally banned. razgriz_101
negative, they get dispsation on the situation and connect to the developer version of XBL or on a list of gamertags that are allowed to use it.Pretty sure Jim Sterling posted on twitter the other night that a load of settings got changed so he can review it im under the assumption this means he's on the dev version and would make sense in this case. The moral of the story is, you have it before its officialy released its illegal and breaking the agreement between you and the company providing the product AND the distributor and the manufacturer.Release dates are kinda there for a reason and in this case rockstar dont wany any stram to be let out of the hype train before tuesday.
Â
Â
There is no moral to this story a store give you a game early which you legaly pay for it,there is no reason why MS should ban you or can even ban your console for it legaly,in fact it is the store the one that should face problems for giving you the game early,is the store the one that has to respect the launch agreement.
I think MS will unban them once they get to confirm the game is legal.
[QUOTE="delta3074"]we don't care about people playing it early, it's the inevitible spoilers that usually come with something like thisfoxhound_fox
Get off the internet if you want to avoid spoilers.why should i, it's up to other people to show consideration and not post spoilers, thats why there are rules on here about getting banned if you reveal spoilers about a game, why should i have to leave to avoid the inconsiderate attitudes of others, thats like saying it's my fault i got attacked in my own home because i was there and didn't leave.
you break the release date you are opening yourself up to lawsuits, playing it before the release without permission is also opening yourself up to lawsuits cause in theoretical terms it can be classified as breaking an NDA type agreement. theres a release date for a reason. stop trying to turn this into another topic where people rag on MS, this isnt the only industry this happens in i remember there being a big fallout with peavey and the british distro of the 6505 being released early in our territiories.Not to mention it comes down to makign sure that everyone has the stock and the levels are right thus release dates are there to ensure the product will be readily available. I work in the food industry sure a different ball game but the release strategy holds the same you ship out and ensure the stock is at a level thats good enough to meet demand. so im gonna say MS is in the right here, sure that will piss you off but what they did was right NOT to mentino the article states no point about these actually being legal copies and not some torrented stuff off PB that silly people got caught with. I personally think its fair to ban them if they are going to leak the game for people makes them all think twice some of us want to open the game on tuesday and not be spoiled 3 days before it by some jackoff who thinks he's doing us all a favour.razgriz_101
Did they go after the customers and give them fees? No I really disagree with their approach with the entirety of my being.
[QUOTE="razgriz_101"][QUOTE="Kjranu"]Watch out reviewers, your console just might be accidentally banned. tormentos
negative, they get dispsation on the situation and connect to the developer version of XBL or on a list of gamertags that are allowed to use it.Pretty sure Jim Sterling posted on twitter the other night that a load of settings got changed so he can review it im under the assumption this means he's on the dev version and would make sense in this case. The moral of the story is, you have it before its officialy released its illegal and breaking the agreement between you and the company providing the product AND the distributor and the manufacturer.Release dates are kinda there for a reason and in this case rockstar dont wany any stram to be let out of the hype train before tuesday.
Â
Â
There is no moral to this story a store give you a game early which you legaly pay for it,there is no reason why MS should ban you or can even ban your console for it legaly,in fact it is the store the one that should face problems for giving you the game early,is the store the one that has to respect the launch agreement.
I think MS will unban them once they get to confirm the game is legal.
MS has no way to tell if the game is a legitimate copy or a pirated copy so they would have to assume it's pirated, you also obviously didn't read the article, it's rockstar pulling the strings on this one, Not MS, MS are just sticking to Rockstars policy, which they Legally have too. 'Rockstar Games has a specific policy that mentions leaking content of a game before the release, and one of the videos leaked contained the individuals gamertag. As you can imagine, their system was banned by Microsoft which means theyll need to purchase a new one to play on Xbox Live again.'
[QUOTE="razgriz_101"] No doubt Sony will start bans aswell, Rockstar are the ones calling the shot with the product not MS, MS are only keeping themselves right as to not incite a lawsuite by Rockstar etc. They wont bother you if you go and disconnect from live and play it, its a sensible option to be fair the only people getting caught are the ones who are moronic enough to plaster their gamertag on youtube and upload footage, MS is only doing their part in keeping leaks down to be fair. Literally a video can get posted and 10min later it will be gone due to copyright infringement claims by take 2.delta3074
I'm sorry Birdy he doesn't deserve that either but since when do videogames have to be more about the law than about buying something and playing it? It's just crazy how low videogames have fallen in such a short amount of time due to companies like MS. You need to study the law before you play a game or you might get fined or your house searched or you lose your stuff. And if that happens don't count on anybody's sympathy because you should have known everything. It's all there somewhere on the internet for us all to know, so we should. I'm concerned that all these bad business tactics are making the value of a videogame drop like a rock. Convenience and reliability matter a lot to the gaming customers. It's like these companies don't want to sell. Like they just don't know what on Earth they are doing with this industry. It pisses me off to no end.i get what you are saying but it's not really MS fault,the rule was there Before the original xbox even released over here shops would refuse to sell games before there release date, it's only in the last couple of years that shops have decided to flout that rule. as somebody else posted, MS have no real well to tell whether they are legitimate or pirated copies so they have to assume that anybody playing it before the street date is playing a pirated copy, better to be safe than Sorry so to speak. It's Piracy thats to blame for the way things are with street release dates. i do feel however that the release date should be the Date the game is actually in store, you know like 'hey guys , we got it to stores a week earlier so we are moving the release date closer'. they need to be more flexible and fluid with there release dates instead of having there mind set on a set release date, if the game releases early they should allow EVERY store to sell it early. But then everybody is guilty until proven innocent. No I stick to my stance. MS should count their losses and do better next time to prevent this from happening. This is like second hand trade a problem between publisher and retailer and yet again they go after the customer. Even then, why don't they ban everyone with a 360 from playing the game until release day? Why let it get this far and ruin these peoples day?
[QUOTE="delta3074"][QUOTE="KungfuKitten"] I'm sorry Birdy he doesn't deserve that either but since when do videogames have to be more about the law than about buying something and playing it? It's just crazy how low videogames have fallen in such a short amount of time due to companies like MS. You need to study the law before you play a game or you might get fined or your house searched or you lose your stuff. And if that happens don't count on anybody's sympathy because you should have known everything. It's all there somewhere on the internet for us all to know, so we should. I'm concerned that all these bad business tactics are making the value of a videogame drop like a rock. Convenience and reliability matter a lot to the gaming customers. It's like these companies don't want to sell. Like they just don't know what on Earth they are doing with this industry. It pisses me off to no end.KungfuKitten
i get what you are saying but it's not really MS fault,the rule was there Before the original xbox even released over here shops would refuse to sell games before there release date, it's only in the last couple of years that shops have decided to flout that rule. as somebody else posted, MS have no real well to tell whether they are legitimate or pirated copies so they have to assume that anybody playing it before the street date is playing a pirated copy, better to be safe than Sorry so to speak. It's Piracy thats to blame for the way things are with street release dates. i do feel however that the release date should be the Date the game is actually in store, you know like 'hey guys , we got it to stores a week earlier so we are moving the release date closer'. they need to be more flexible and fluid with there release dates instead of having there mind set on a set release date, if the game releases early they should allow EVERY store to sell it early. But then everybody is guilty until proven innocent. No I stick to my stance. MS should count their losses and do better next time to prevent this from happening. This is like second hand trade a problem between publisher and retailer and yet again they go after the customer. it was going on Before MS even entered the Console market dude, thats what i am saying, and it's NOT MS pulling the strings, they are legally obliged to follows rockstars policy. 'Rockstar Games has a specific policy that mentions leaking content of a game before the release, and one of the videos leaked contained the individuals gamertag. As you can imagine, their system was banned by Microsoft which means theyll need to purchase a new one to play on Xbox Live again.' What do you think would have happened if MS had not Enforced rockstars policys? I get what you are saying but you are levelling the Blame at the wrong company. MS can do some shitty things sometimes, like banning peoples consoles for using third party HDD's but they are not at fault this time, you should Rant at Rockstar for having such Draconian policies. And i completely agree with your policy on innocent until proven Guilty:) It's been a shit situation all round since release dates where set in stone.
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