Is turn-based combat really dead?

@Maroxad said:

@darkangel115 said:

Or you don't ave enough info to see the logic? It's more then just an idea of this or that. It's literally the whole system is flawed and outdated. Not only that but how can you say i'm not concerned with "fun and challenging" gameplay. You say I don't want to think ot be forced to make decisions, yet you choose jade empire a game that is a bioware RPG and hence is highly focused around story and making decisions. You would know that if you went off of more then a review. Also difficulty is highly subjective. people think dark souls are hard games, I don't think they are personally. No jade empire wasn't difficult, but it was challenging in its own way. Also i guarantee if I sat still for 5 mins in the middle of combat, I'd die. Unlike a turn based game where i could walk away from the game and come back and still the enemy would be waiting for my input. Also headshots as critical, is much different then random critical.

I've played tabletop RPGs in my younger days. hell if you want to break it down to basics, games like life, monopoly, risk etc are really RPGs which rely on some luck and some skill, Sure they have their place and people might enjoy them, but they are still old and outdated. record players are old and outdated but still have a charm and are used my some DJs still. There is nothing wrong with liking them, they fill a nice audience, but they are no longer needed as games can now have deeper combat systems without having to pause the action

No, you didnt make any real decisions in Jade Empire. At most that game gave you the illusion of choice. Which is what BioWare has done since even Baldur's Gate 2.

While you would die in an ARPG if you stood around like that. Making a mistake can be a lot more consequential in a Turn Based game, especially in a roguelike. And sometimes, due to the high number of variables. Mistakes can be a lot easier to make in turn based games as well. These games are designed around you really having to think your actions through. At least the good ones are.

You see this thing above? That is an enemy that gained a large ammount of notoriety among gamers. As inexperienced players could have their entire party fall to a single one of these, for a multitude of reasons, such as not accounting for them when positioning, facing and moving your party. And then the game might make you face 6 of these guys at the same time. Wanna know the best part though, these were hardly the only enemies like this, and the sequel introduced an enemy even worse, not only did it have higher stats, but it could also fly.

As for the random argument. You do realize there is some degree of skill involved with probability manipulation, particulary risk assessments. Also, it forces the player to use backup plans, in case their plans dont work out as they had hoped.

And no, I would hardly call them outdated considering that some of the most popular RPGs around are turn based. Pokemon (ORAS sold over 10 million copies iirc), Fire Emblem (Awakening Sold around 2 million), NuXCOM (3 million owners according to steam spy), Divinity: Original Sin (1 million owners). Are just some of the Turn Based RPGs that come up in my mind.

Popular mostly for children and mobile gamers. Lets be honest, children like terrible things.

@darkangel115: Pokemon being popular mostly among children I can agree with, but FIre Emblem, XCOM and Divinity? Also, the likes of Persona and SMT? Not fucking likely.

Your arguments (if they can even be called that) have no legs, man. Just give up. You're making a fool of yourself.

kids and teens. Except maybe xcom might have more of an adult audience, But highly doubtful many 25+ year olds are playing persona

Actually, I wouldnt be surprised if a lot of Persona fans are 25+ or nearing the age of 25.

Persona 3 would be released when 25 year olds would be 16 and Persona 4 when they were 18. From what I have seen of a lot of Persona fans, including Charizard, it is that Persona 4 is a particulary important game for them to this, because this was the game that defined their transition from a child to adulthood.

Also while I am at it. Have you even seen the older RPG communities? Most of those guys tend to condemn ARPGs for being shallow, missing the point of RPGs, Doing Poorly with Parties, and being a poor man's action game. Turn Based games are much more popular with older people. Especially as once one gets older, reflexes tend to go down.

And I agree, in general, I dont think the aRPG genre as a whole has been great.

Now, dont get me wrong. The likes of Nox, Mount and Blade, Dark Souls and Dragons Dogma are great games. But for every one of those, you get way more Mass Effects, Dragon Age Inquisitions, Guild Wars 2s, Jade Empires, The Elder Scrolls, NeoFallouts, that have really uninspiring combat.

Goes to show you know **** all about the likes of Persona, Divinity and XCOM.

@darkangel115 said:

@Maroxad said:

@darkangel115 said:

Or you don't ave enough info to see the logic? It's more then just an idea of this or that. It's literally the whole system is flawed and outdated. Not only that but how can you say i'm not concerned with "fun and challenging" gameplay. You say I don't want to think ot be forced to make decisions, yet you choose jade empire a game that is a bioware RPG and hence is highly focused around story and making decisions. You would know that if you went off of more then a review. Also difficulty is highly subjective. people think dark souls are hard games, I don't think they are personally. No jade empire wasn't difficult, but it was challenging in its own way. Also i guarantee if I sat still for 5 mins in the middle of combat, I'd die. Unlike a turn based game where i could walk away from the game and come back and still the enemy would be waiting for my input. Also headshots as critical, is much different then random critical.

I've played tabletop RPGs in my younger days. hell if you want to break it down to basics, games like life, monopoly, risk etc are really RPGs which rely on some luck and some skill, Sure they have their place and people might enjoy them, but they are still old and outdated. record players are old and outdated but still have a charm and are used my some DJs still. There is nothing wrong with liking them, they fill a nice audience, but they are no longer needed as games can now have deeper combat systems without having to pause the action

No, you didnt make any real decisions in Jade Empire. At most that game gave you the illusion of choice. Which is what BioWare has done since even Baldur's Gate 2.

While you would die in an ARPG if you stood around like that. Making a mistake can be a lot more consequential in a Turn Based game, especially in a roguelike. And sometimes, due to the high number of variables. Mistakes can be a lot easier to make in turn based games as well. These games are designed around you really having to think your actions through. At least the good ones are.

You see this thing above? That is an enemy that gained a large ammount of notoriety among gamers. As inexperienced players could have their entire party fall to a single one of these, for a multitude of reasons, such as not accounting for them when positioning, facing and moving your party. And then the game might make you face 6 of these guys at the same time. Wanna know the best part though, these were hardly the only enemies like this, and the sequel introduced an enemy even worse, not only did it have higher stats, but it could also fly.

As for the random argument. You do realize there is some degree of skill involved with probability manipulation, particulary risk assessments. Also, it forces the player to use backup plans, in case their plans dont work out as they had hoped.

And no, I would hardly call them outdated considering that some of the most popular RPGs around are turn based. Pokemon (ORAS sold over 10 million copies iirc), Fire Emblem (Awakening Sold around 2 million), NuXCOM (3 million owners according to steam spy), Divinity: Original Sin (1 million owners). Are just some of the Turn Based RPGs that come up in my mind.

Popular mostly for children and mobile gamers. Lets be honest, children like terrible things.

It's weird that you would so readily admit to having bad taste, but thanks for being honest.

@GreySeal9 said:

@darkangel115 said:

@Maroxad said:

@darkangel115 said:

Or you don't ave enough info to see the logic? It's more then just an idea of this or that. It's literally the whole system is flawed and outdated. Not only that but how can you say i'm not concerned with "fun and challenging" gameplay. You say I don't want to think ot be forced to make decisions, yet you choose jade empire a game that is a bioware RPG and hence is highly focused around story and making decisions. You would know that if you went off of more then a review. Also difficulty is highly subjective. people think dark souls are hard games, I don't think they are personally. No jade empire wasn't difficult, but it was challenging in its own way. Also i guarantee if I sat still for 5 mins in the middle of combat, I'd die. Unlike a turn based game where i could walk away from the game and come back and still the enemy would be waiting for my input. Also headshots as critical, is much different then random critical.

I've played tabletop RPGs in my younger days. hell if you want to break it down to basics, games like life, monopoly, risk etc are really RPGs which rely on some luck and some skill, Sure they have their place and people might enjoy them, but they are still old and outdated. record players are old and outdated but still have a charm and are used my some DJs still. There is nothing wrong with liking them, they fill a nice audience, but they are no longer needed as games can now have deeper combat systems without having to pause the action

No, you didnt make any real decisions in Jade Empire. At most that game gave you the illusion of choice. Which is what BioWare has done since even Baldur's Gate 2.

While you would die in an ARPG if you stood around like that. Making a mistake can be a lot more consequential in a Turn Based game, especially in a roguelike. And sometimes, due to the high number of variables. Mistakes can be a lot easier to make in turn based games as well. These games are designed around you really having to think your actions through. At least the good ones are.

You see this thing above? That is an enemy that gained a large ammount of notoriety among gamers. As inexperienced players could have their entire party fall to a single one of these, for a multitude of reasons, such as not accounting for them when positioning, facing and moving your party. And then the game might make you face 6 of these guys at the same time. Wanna know the best part though, these were hardly the only enemies like this, and the sequel introduced an enemy even worse, not only did it have higher stats, but it could also fly.

As for the random argument. You do realize there is some degree of skill involved with probability manipulation, particulary risk assessments. Also, it forces the player to use backup plans, in case their plans dont work out as they had hoped.

And no, I would hardly call them outdated considering that some of the most popular RPGs around are turn based. Pokemon (ORAS sold over 10 million copies iirc), Fire Emblem (Awakening Sold around 2 million), NuXCOM (3 million owners according to steam spy), Divinity: Original Sin (1 million owners). Are just some of the Turn Based RPGs that come up in my mind.

Popular mostly for children and mobile gamers. Lets be honest, children like terrible things.

It's weird that you would so readily admit to having bad taste, but thanks for being honest.

lol nice :P

I've played xcom, I know all about persona, divinty i don't know about

@GreySeal9 said:

@darkangel115 said:

@Maroxad said:

@darkangel115 said:

Or you don't ave enough info to see the logic? It's more then just an idea of this or that. It's literally the whole system is flawed and outdated. Not only that but how can you say i'm not concerned with "fun and challenging" gameplay. You say I don't want to think ot be forced to make decisions, yet you choose jade empire a game that is a bioware RPG and hence is highly focused around story and making decisions. You would know that if you went off of more then a review. Also difficulty is highly subjective. people think dark souls are hard games, I don't think they are personally. No jade empire wasn't difficult, but it was challenging in its own way. Also i guarantee if I sat still for 5 mins in the middle of combat, I'd die. Unlike a turn based game where i could walk away from the game and come back and still the enemy would be waiting for my input. Also headshots as critical, is much different then random critical.

I've played tabletop RPGs in my younger days. hell if you want to break it down to basics, games like life, monopoly, risk etc are really RPGs which rely on some luck and some skill, Sure they have their place and people might enjoy them, but they are still old and outdated. record players are old and outdated but still have a charm and are used my some DJs still. There is nothing wrong with liking them, they fill a nice audience, but they are no longer needed as games can now have deeper combat systems without having to pause the action

No, you didnt make any real decisions in Jade Empire. At most that game gave you the illusion of choice. Which is what BioWare has done since even Baldur's Gate 2.

While you would die in an ARPG if you stood around like that. Making a mistake can be a lot more consequential in a Turn Based game, especially in a roguelike. And sometimes, due to the high number of variables. Mistakes can be a lot easier to make in turn based games as well. These games are designed around you really having to think your actions through. At least the good ones are.

You see this thing above? That is an enemy that gained a large ammount of notoriety among gamers. As inexperienced players could have their entire party fall to a single one of these, for a multitude of reasons, such as not accounting for them when positioning, facing and moving your party. And then the game might make you face 6 of these guys at the same time. Wanna know the best part though, these were hardly the only enemies like this, and the sequel introduced an enemy even worse, not only did it have higher stats, but it could also fly.

As for the random argument. You do realize there is some degree of skill involved with probability manipulation, particulary risk assessments. Also, it forces the player to use backup plans, in case their plans dont work out as they had hoped.

And no, I would hardly call them outdated considering that some of the most popular RPGs around are turn based. Pokemon (ORAS sold over 10 million copies iirc), Fire Emblem (Awakening Sold around 2 million), NuXCOM (3 million owners according to steam spy), Divinity: Original Sin (1 million owners). Are just some of the Turn Based RPGs that come up in my mind.

Popular mostly for children and mobile gamers. Lets be honest, children like terrible things.

It's weird that you would so readily admit to having bad taste, but thanks for being honest.

I did like terrible things when i was a child like 25 years ago. I'm sure you still like them as you act like a child so i assume you are one and your comment calling me one kinda proves it.

If you knew all about Persona, you wouldn't be saying stupid shit like that.

It's a game based on an anime thats basically a high school dating sim. But people will come up with OMG the story is so good and the sim stuff is optional defenses. Same people who would play DOAX becuase the "gameplay" is good then spend 100 dollars on pervy bikinis

Persona 5, ni no Kuni II - moh my gawd

LOL. Persona is not based on an anime. Persona's anime is based on it. What the hell is wrong you?

And the high school dating sim is an oversimplification. That's only a fraction of what the game is. Persona is a high school dating sim if The Witcher is a horse riding game. And no Persona fan would come up with the defense that it is "optional." They would, however, come up with the defense that it's not dating as much as it is character development, the same way the loyalty missions in Mass Effect 2 are, and the Social Links- or the dating sim missions to a pleb like you- are extremely well written.

As I said before, you're making a fool of yourself.

@darkangel115 said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@darkangel115 said:

@Maroxad said:

@darkangel115 said:

Or you don't ave enough info to see the logic? It's more then just an idea of this or that. It's literally the whole system is flawed and outdated. Not only that but how can you say i'm not concerned with "fun and challenging" gameplay. You say I don't want to think ot be forced to make decisions, yet you choose jade empire a game that is a bioware RPG and hence is highly focused around story and making decisions. You would know that if you went off of more then a review. Also difficulty is highly subjective. people think dark souls are hard games, I don't think they are personally. No jade empire wasn't difficult, but it was challenging in its own way. Also i guarantee if I sat still for 5 mins in the middle of combat, I'd die. Unlike a turn based game where i could walk away from the game and come back and still the enemy would be waiting for my input. Also headshots as critical, is much different then random critical.

I've played tabletop RPGs in my younger days. hell if you want to break it down to basics, games like life, monopoly, risk etc are really RPGs which rely on some luck and some skill, Sure they have their place and people might enjoy them, but they are still old and outdated. record players are old and outdated but still have a charm and are used my some DJs still. There is nothing wrong with liking them, they fill a nice audience, but they are no longer needed as games can now have deeper combat systems without having to pause the action

No, you didnt make any real decisions in Jade Empire. At most that game gave you the illusion of choice. Which is what BioWare has done since even Baldur's Gate 2.

While you would die in an ARPG if you stood around like that. Making a mistake can be a lot more consequential in a Turn Based game, especially in a roguelike. And sometimes, due to the high number of variables. Mistakes can be a lot easier to make in turn based games as well. These games are designed around you really having to think your actions through. At least the good ones are.

You see this thing above? That is an enemy that gained a large ammount of notoriety among gamers. As inexperienced players could have their entire party fall to a single one of these, for a multitude of reasons, such as not accounting for them when positioning, facing and moving your party. And then the game might make you face 6 of these guys at the same time. Wanna know the best part though, these were hardly the only enemies like this, and the sequel introduced an enemy even worse, not only did it have higher stats, but it could also fly.

As for the random argument. You do realize there is some degree of skill involved with probability manipulation, particulary risk assessments. Also, it forces the player to use backup plans, in case their plans dont work out as they had hoped.

And no, I would hardly call them outdated considering that some of the most popular RPGs around are turn based. Pokemon (ORAS sold over 10 million copies iirc), Fire Emblem (Awakening Sold around 2 million), NuXCOM (3 million owners according to steam spy), Divinity: Original Sin (1 million owners). Are just some of the Turn Based RPGs that come up in my mind.

Popular mostly for children and mobile gamers. Lets be honest, children like terrible things.

It's weird that you would so readily admit to having bad taste, but thanks for being honest.

I did like terrible things when i was a child like 25 years ago. I'm sure you still like them as you act like a child so i assume you are one and your comment calling me one kinda proves it.

Holy shit! You're an adult? That's pretty sad.

so your defense is exactly what i said it would be, you just tried to make it sound better. Also your instant attack at calling me a pleb, just goes to show your maturity on the subject, but then again persona isn't for a mature audience. those of us who actually dated in high school didn't need to play dating sims, so it's pretty much what i expected

@GreySeal9 said:

@darkangel115 said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@darkangel115 said:

@Maroxad said:

No, you didnt make any real decisions in Jade Empire. At most that game gave you the illusion of choice. Which is what BioWare has done since even Baldur's Gate 2.

While you would die in an ARPG if you stood around like that. Making a mistake can be a lot more consequential in a Turn Based game, especially in a roguelike. And sometimes, due to the high number of variables. Mistakes can be a lot easier to make in turn based games as well. These games are designed around you really having to think your actions through. At least the good ones are.

You see this thing above? That is an enemy that gained a large ammount of notoriety among gamers. As inexperienced players could have their entire party fall to a single one of these, for a multitude of reasons, such as not accounting for them when positioning, facing and moving your party. And then the game might make you face 6 of these guys at the same time. Wanna know the best part though, these were hardly the only enemies like this, and the sequel introduced an enemy even worse, not only did it have higher stats, but it could also fly.

As for the random argument. You do realize there is some degree of skill involved with probability manipulation, particulary risk assessments. Also, it forces the player to use backup plans, in case their plans dont work out as they had hoped.

And no, I would hardly call them outdated considering that some of the most popular RPGs around are turn based. Pokemon (ORAS sold over 10 million copies iirc), Fire Emblem (Awakening Sold around 2 million), NuXCOM (3 million owners according to steam spy), Divinity: Original Sin (1 million owners). Are just some of the Turn Based RPGs that come up in my mind.

Popular mostly for children and mobile gamers. Lets be honest, children like terrible things.

It's weird that you would so readily admit to having bad taste, but thanks for being honest.

I did like terrible things when i was a child like 25 years ago. I'm sure you still like them as you act like a child so i assume you are one and your comment calling me one kinda proves it.

Holy shit! You're an adult? That's pretty sad.

care to elaborate?

Persona is not based on an anime. If Persona is just a dating sim, then according to your logic, so are most BioWare games. If anything, dating sim elements are a common feature in modern RPGs. And finally, DOAX is a very silly comparison.

Holy crap. Dunning Kruger effect anyone?

I dont like Persona, in fact, I utterly despise Persona 4. But no, its not based on an anime. And the story is pretty good for what it is. Going far beyond a lot of its competition in the high school hijinks genre (that is what I like to call it) in terms of storytelling, dealing with the search for truth and denial of it... granted, I did think it did a poor job, but all things considered, it still went much further than most others would.

Actually, the dating sim stuff is pretty apt.

The slice of life stuff in general is extremely akin to several common themes among dating sims. Working, raising skills, time limits, schedule managements. And the social linking is more or less identical. The biggest difference between the two is that one actually puts some effort into the characterization and storytelling and the other one doesnt.

That makes half the game more or less, a dating sim for people who dont know they like dating sims. And since that is the only part I see people praising (the dungeon crawler half gets nothing but criticism).

@Maroxad said:

@darkangel115 said:

I've played xcom, I know all about persona, divinty i don't know about

@darkangel115 said:

It's a game based on an anime thats basically a high school dating sim. But people will come up with OMG the story is so good and the sim stuff is optional defenses. Same people who would play DOAX becuase the "gameplay" is good then spend 100 dollars on pervy bikinis

Holy crap. Dunning Kruger effect anyone?

I dont like Persona, in fact, I utterly despise Persona 4. But no, its not based on an anime. And the story is pretty good for what it is. Going far beyond a lot of its competition in the high school hijinks genre (that is what I like to call it) in terms of storytelling, dealing with the search for truth and denial of it... granted, I did think it did a poor job, but all things considered, it still went much further than most others would.

@khoofia_pika said:

LOL. Persona is not based on an anime. Persona's anime is based on it. What the hell is wrong you?

And the high school dating sim is an oversimplification. That's only a fraction of what the game is. Persona is a high school dating sim if The Witcher is a horse riding game. And no Persona fan would come up with the defense that it is "optional." They would, however, come up with the defense that it's not dating as much as it is character development, the same way the loyalty missions in Mass Effect 2 are, and the Social Links- or the dating sim missions to a pleb like you- are extremely well written.

As I said before, you're making a fool of yourself.

Actually, the dating sim stuff is pretty apt.

The slice of life stuff in general is extremely akin to several common themes among dating sims. Working, raising skills, time limits, schedule managements. And the social linking is more or less identical. The biggest difference between the two is that one actually puts some effort into the characterization and storytelling and the other one doesnt.

i never said expert. I said i knew what it was. anime style game RPG based on a kid in high school made by japanese devs. Thats all I need to know to know it won't appeal to me nor most adults. I also know about MLP (I have a 10 year old daughter) I wouldn't say I'm an expert but i know enough that I wouldn't want to play a game based on it. Lets be real, unless you live in japan or are under the age of 22-23 years old, anime doesn't really appeal to you. Of course there are exceptions, but that's out of the norm

Wouldn't Xcom 2 technically be turned based? I'm pretty sure that is one of the bigger PC titles coming out this year

Looks like you've pretty much already made up your mind regarding a game you haven't even played and obviously have no knowledge of. I didn't try to make it look better, having spent over 150 hours playing Persona in the last few months, I told you exactly what the game is. I called you a pleb because you're talking nonsensical shit about something you have zero knowledge of. The fact that you felt insecure enough to have to mention your high school dating, which is wildly off topic and not at all relevant here, shows how mature you are, but then again, that's pretty much what I expected from an absolute simpleminded moron like you.

The dating sim stuff is only a part of the overall lime simulation aspect of the game. If Persona is a dating sim, then by that logic, so is something like Mass Effect 2 (though obviously not to the same degree, just drawing an analogy here). The dating aspect is part of the Social Link mechanic, which, in turn, is part of the life simulation mechanic, which, again, in turn, is part of the broader game. I don't even think it's possible to be able to spend the majority of your time in Persona playing it as a dating sim. There's S.Links with a lot of characters, and only a few of them boil down to any romantic outcomes. And that's not even the point of the S.Links, the point is to develop the characters and/or move personal storylines forward.

A part of it is a dating sim, sure, but half of it? Not by a long shot. You're dividing the games into two halfs- dungeons and dating, whereas both those things are just two of the several pieces that come together to make up the entire game. Half is a wildly exaggerated figure. And it's not the only part people praise. In fact, people praise almost every single aspect of Persona other than its dungeon design.

So the discussion over real time vs turn based is still going on after over a week? LMAO.

It's more of a clean up job now

It is by far the biggest part, and again... the WHOLE simulation bit reeked it. Not just a bit.

What did you do in the simulation aspect of Persona 4?

You worked (which acted as a S.Link and gave you some money on the side), you raised your skills such as dilligence, understanding and knowledge, you hung out with people. These are the EXACT same activities you had in a dating sim, where you would work, raise skills, hang out... possibly even date. Furthermore, both tend to offer several interruptions from the daily activities as well with special events. In both P4 and dating sims, your actions of the day are also limited by the day and time of day. Both give you time limits, Persona 4 has one you keep extending, Dating Sims typically give you 100 days to 1 year (hmm). The socialization bit is just the same, you pick from 2-3 dialogue options, and all of them give you an X ammount of points. Of these options, one of them will usually give you more points. Social Links in Persona function in the exact same way.

And I was referring to the gameplay mostly, it is the gameplay that is identical. The writing in P4 and Dating Sims differ quite a bit ;) I will give you that. But I wouldnt call 8/24 possible Social Links a few. That is 1/3rd of all social links which have romantic possibilities.

By the way... I have seen quite a few gaming communities out there call Mass Effect an RPG. Just saying :P

It's ok, one day you'll look back and think "why did i like this, man that pleb was right"

@darkangel115: yeah, lol, sure, okay. Don't hold your breath

I'm going to take it you have never played any of them... In my opinion Persona 3 and 4 are a couple of the greatest games ever made

@aigis: which is exactly what I was saying. He hasn't even played the game and then goes on to make outrageous claims and backs them to the hilt with shitty arguments, refusing to accept the fact that having never even played it and knowing nothing about it, his opinion means less than squat on this matter.

@khoofia_pika: I think its a game you have to experience just to understand how great it actually is. If they haven't and think the social link aspects of the game makes up the entire game and mock it when the writing is amazing, I dont know what to say... I pity that they are shortsighted that they dont actually know what the game is about and are missing out on such a phenomenal experience.

and you are entitled to that. What I'm saying is most people that agree with you, probably aren't in their 30s with a family. they are probably teens or early 20s

I'll be holding my breathe for my kids to realize things for the next 10+ years, I think I'll be ok

Pre-conceived notions about what they think Persona is like sadly often come into play. Arguing with people like those is like banging your head against a wall. Why argue about something you have no knowledge of, if all you can fall back in is assumptions and outrageous claims? I don't know, seems pretty basic to me. Talking about it with someone who actually knows what they're talking about- like I'm doing with @Maroxad in this thread, for example- is entirely different. Maroxad is making many of the points this darkangel dude tried to make, but the difference is that one of them has actual knowledge about the subject matter and isn't just forcing an argument because they feel like they have to stick to what they said, no matter how ridiculous it may have been. Not to mention the fact that Maroxad actually knows how to make a point, whereas the other dude's rambling comes across as pathetic, unintelligible babble.

I guess we have to disagree on how much of the game boils down to being a dating sim. When I play Persona, the dating sim aspect doesn't play a massive role in the gameplay. It's a major factor, I won't deny that. But the biggest factor? No. Even if we do assume that 1/3rd of all S.Links have romantic possibilities, we have to keep in mind the fact that even in those S.Links, the romantic possibilities aren't the be-all and end-all. That's just one of the several strands that makes up that several S.Link thread, you know what I mean? There's much more to S.Links- even those with possible romantic outcomes. It's not like dating the person involved is the ultimate objective, it's not what you're working towards. The context is a major factor here. As I said before, the point of ALL the Social Links, even those that can be called "dating sim" S.Links is to build and develop the characters involved. Romantic storylines are often HOW the development is done, but that's a means, not an end.

Calling the life simulation aspect a dating sim- S.Links included- is an oversimplification. It's undeniable that that is a major part of the mechanic, but generalizing it like that is unfair to the game ignorant of what it actually tries to accomplish with those mechanics.

I would hardly call the writing of Persona 4 amazing... havent played Persona 3, so I will refrain too much from that.

It does its job well, and was definately entertaining for sure. But at the same time, it doeesnt even hold a candle compared to an average visual novel or adventure game. Something like Fate/Stay Night, Swan Song or Stein's Gate. I even found myself greatly more engrossed in the deteriorating world of Devil Survivor where everyone got pushed to the point of madness, over the mundane and disjointed storytelling Persona 4 offered.

Do you mind if I inquire if you have played any of the games before?

Honestly, I like every character in 3 and 4 and thought they the character development is awesome. Each character was likable and had their own unique personality. I thought the humor is very good even though it may seem to be objectively not good. I think the real disconnect might just be the styles between Devil Survivor and Persona 4. You may enjoy 3 more because its darker than 4, 4 is the upbeat one out of the two. If you like visual novel games, I could suggest the zero escape series. The story and characters are really good in that too.

I didnt romance anyone ;) So yes, they can definately be played entirely ignoring the romances. Even 100%'ed.

And yeah, we will just have to agree to disagree.

I was just saying that mechanically, Persona 3+4 and Dating sims are the same. When it comes to the ends, things differed quite a bit, the purpose is to tell a "micro-story" with each S. Link... often dealing with problems that may come with the age group of said person (often dealing with the theme of acceptance in some form).

I said it before already, but i played xcom, know about persona, don't know a thing about divinity.

Which brings me back to the Dunning Kruger graph.

You claim to know about Persona, yet you clearly know very little about it. And your view is extremely distorted. What you could and maybe should have said is... I am vaguely familiar with persona/I have heard a few things about persona. Both of which would be much more honest.

I played through Persona and I cant really claim I know it,

1. I only played through Persona 4 one time. On the PS2 version... I do have the Vita version but I never got very far.
2. I played through Persona 4, to some meaningful extent years ago.
3. I am a skeptic, I am even skeptical of my own memories of today.
4. I never 100%ed it. I think I got through around 4/5ths of the social links.
5. I was genuinely bored playing through the game. The Social Linking and slice of life stuff did absolutely nothing for me. In fact, I was pleased when I could just skip it all during a certain point in the game. This boredom, naturally builds up certain biases, which in turn means I can not have been particulary fair to the game.
6. It is a 60 hour RPG... there is bound to be stuff I would forget here and there.

I actually got about 105 hours off of my first playthrough of 3, I forget what I got for 4 though

Clearly you don't know a thing about Persona either.

Where did you hear that?

I like turn-based combat.

Man, some of you really should know when to stop talking so you don't end up making complete fools of yourselves with egg on your face.

@darkangel115: You do realize the Persona games have M ratings, right? And yet you're trying to pass them off as kiddy games?

@Maroxad said:

@darkangel115 said:

I've played xcom, I know all about persona, divinty i don't know about

@darkangel115 said:

It's a game based on an anime thats basically a high school dating sim. But people will come up with OMG the story is so good and the sim stuff is optional defenses. Same people who would play DOAX becuase the "gameplay" is good then spend 100 dollars on pervy bikinis

Holy crap. Dunning Kruger effect anyone?

I dont like Persona, in fact, I utterly despise Persona 4. But no, its not based on an anime. And the story is pretty good for what it is. Going far beyond a lot of its competition in the high school hijinks genre (that is what I like to call it) in terms of storytelling, dealing with the search for truth and denial of it... granted, I did think it did a poor job, but all things considered, it still went much further than most others would.

Interesting graph. I didn't know about the Dunning-Kruger effect, but it's a pattern I've noticed for a very long time. There's definitely a correlation between ignorance and arrogance.

semantics? how is know about different from heard a few things or vageuly familiar. i never claimed to play it. I would never play anything anime related TBH. doesn't interest me and same goes for most adults.

since i said it was a JRPG in anime style, it'd say i clearly know something about it. Not like i said it was a FPS

Somehow, I don't believe you.

I didn't say kiddy games. I said teenagers and maybe young adults (like early 20s) But even then, I played M games when i was younger so whats the difference? movies also had nudity and were rated PG when I was kid. They would be rated R now. The rating is really irrelevant.

Yeah, it's pure idiocy.