I do, but I do not really have a lot of time to invest in them anymore. That goes for all rpg's though.
Do you like JRPG's?
@Ant_17 said:
@cainetao11 said:
@Ant_17 said:
@cainetao11 said:
Nah just want whether I die in combat to be because of real time skill and strategizing on the fly like in a real fight. Not babyback bitch turn based weaboo shyte
Huh, so Xcom is a weeab game to you?
I believe I have clarified many times its the art style and turn based combat of some JRPGs that qualify them as weab games. You do yo thang tho
And you enjoy brown like a toilet.
I guess I do, I'm engaging in a dialogue with someone that likes shit like weaboo Jrpgs
@texasgoldrush said:
@Jag85 said:
@texasgoldrush:
Whether the interface shows or hides the damage numbers, that's not what defines the combat system. There have been countless J‑action-RPGs that don't show the numbers, from Hydlide and Ys to Alundra and Dragon's Valor. And again, the "JRPG template" you described applies to Monster Hunter, Soulsborne, and Dragon's Dogma, since they follow that same combat-oriented game design philosophy.
Some Mana games don't show damage numbers, like FF Adventure and Legend of Mana. Secret of Mana's combat has far more in common with Zelda and Souls than it does with DQ/FF. UU doesn't have a stamina gauge (separate from health and mana) like Mana and Souls do. Nor does UU, or most WRPGs, have things like an emphasis on hitboxes, or mechanics like active frames and i-frames, which are combat elements common among J-ARPGs, from Mana and Ys to Monster Hunter and Soulsborne.
In Japan, the DQ-like template has traditionally been called the "light RPG". This is just one of several major JRPG styles, along with action-RPGs and strategy-RPGs which have their own separate templates. There's no reason why the "JRPG" label should be exclusively limited to the DQ-like "light RPG" template.
Early action RPGs made in Japan didn't have numbers game template but they now do, especially by the SNES era and definitely in the PSX era. Alundra didn't have numbers game, but the sequel did. Secret of Mana is simply put an action RPG that uses the JRPG template. And no, it doesn't have combat in common with Souls and Zelda. In fact, you cannot dodge magic or special attacks and neither can the enemy. Its basically a turned based action RPG hybrid.
Monster Hunter doesn't follow the JRPG template due to its huge focus on gear over stats and how it handles quests, Soulsborne doesn't follow the JRPG template because its an immersive sim, and Dragons Dogma is a Japanese made WRPG with immersive sim style gameplay to a point. Soulsborne is simply put J-ARPG combat in an Ultima Underworld/System Shock style game that its spiritual predecessors, King's Field and Shadow Tower were. Dragon's Dogma has quests that do not even revolve around combat but are actually cRPG style quests with choices.
And really the template should be called "RPG lite" or "not RPGs" because simply put, they do not grasp what RPGs can be. And really, their action RPGs and strategy RPGs fall into this template as well.
Your argument essentially boils down to whether or not the interface displays damage numbers, which is a frivolous argument. Some J-ARPGs show damage numbers, and others don't. Some Mana games show damage numbers, and others don't. Some Ys games show damage numbers, and others don't. It's a meaningless distinction. Mana's combat system is based on Zelda, but modified with a stamina gauge, like King's Field and Souls. It's only the magic system that's turn-based, whereas the melee combat is real-time action. Besides, there are countless J-ARPGs where you dodge magic/special attacks.
Now you're just shifting the goal-post. There are countless J-ARPGs that focus on gear over stats. There are also plenty of horror-themed JRPGs with "immersive sim" elements. Dragon's Dogma is basically Monster Hunter meets Souls, with elements of other Capcom games like Breath of Fire and Devil May Cry. Soulsborne are basically hardcore Zelda-style games with Metroidvania and survival horror elements.
As I said before, there is no singular "JRPG template" that is logically consistent in anyway. The "light RPG" template (or what some erroneously call the "JRPG template") only applies to DQ-likes, and has very little to do with J-ARPGs or SRPGs.
@Jag85 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@Jag85 said:
@texasgoldrush:
Whether the interface shows or hides the damage numbers, that's not what defines the combat system. There have been countless J‑action-RPGs that don't show the numbers, from Hydlide and Ys to Alundra and Dragon's Valor. And again, the "JRPG template" you described applies to Monster Hunter, Soulsborne, and Dragon's Dogma, since they follow that same combat-oriented game design philosophy.
Some Mana games don't show damage numbers, like FF Adventure and Legend of Mana. Secret of Mana's combat has far more in common with Zelda and Souls than it does with DQ/FF. UU doesn't have a stamina gauge (separate from health and mana) like Mana and Souls do. Nor does UU, or most WRPGs, have things like an emphasis on hitboxes, or mechanics like active frames and i-frames, which are combat elements common among J-ARPGs, from Mana and Ys to Monster Hunter and Soulsborne.
In Japan, the DQ-like template has traditionally been called the "light RPG". This is just one of several major JRPG styles, along with action-RPGs and strategy-RPGs which have their own separate templates. There's no reason why the "JRPG" label should be exclusively limited to the DQ-like "light RPG" template.
Early action RPGs made in Japan didn't have numbers game template but they now do, especially by the SNES era and definitely in the PSX era. Alundra didn't have numbers game, but the sequel did. Secret of Mana is simply put an action RPG that uses the JRPG template. And no, it doesn't have combat in common with Souls and Zelda. In fact, you cannot dodge magic or special attacks and neither can the enemy. Its basically a turned based action RPG hybrid.
Monster Hunter doesn't follow the JRPG template due to its huge focus on gear over stats and how it handles quests, Soulsborne doesn't follow the JRPG template because its an immersive sim, and Dragons Dogma is a Japanese made WRPG with immersive sim style gameplay to a point. Soulsborne is simply put J-ARPG combat in an Ultima Underworld/System Shock style game that its spiritual predecessors, King's Field and Shadow Tower were. Dragon's Dogma has quests that do not even revolve around combat but are actually cRPG style quests with choices.
And really the template should be called "RPG lite" or "not RPGs" because simply put, they do not grasp what RPGs can be. And really, their action RPGs and strategy RPGs fall into this template as well.
Your argument essentially boils down to whether or not the interface displays damage numbers, which is a frivolous argument. Some J-ARPGs show damage numbers, and others don't. Some Mana games show damage numbers, and others don't. Some Ys games show damage numbers, and others don't. It's a meaningless distinction. Mana's combat system is based on Zelda, but modified with a stamina gauge, like King's Field and Souls. It's only the magic system that's turn-based, whereas the melee combat is real-time action. Besides, there are countless J-ARPGs where you dodge magic/special attacks.
Now you're just shifting the goal-post. There are countless J-ARPGs that focus on gear over stats. There are also plenty of horror-themed JRPGs with "immersive sim" elements. Dragon's Dogma is basically Monster Hunter meets Souls, with elements of other Capcom games like Breath of Fire and Devil May Cry. Soulsborne are basically hardcore Zelda-style games with Metroidvania and survival horror elements.
As I said before, there is no singular "JRPG template" that is logically consistent in anyway. The "light RPG" template (or what some erroneously call the "JRPG template") only applies to DQ-likes, and has very little to do with J-ARPGs or SRPGs.
J-ARPGs increasingly show damage numbers, its the early ones that didn't. Only one Mana game didn't show damage numbers and that was the one that Square wants to toss away. J-ARPGs usually have the template, but in action form. So are SRPGs like Ogre Battle.
No I am not shifting the goalposts. Monster Hunter's quest design isn't typical JRPG fare. Dragon's Dogma also draws from Oblivion and Fable, and has WRPG style quest design and exploration. Soulsbrone once again has roots in Wizardry, Dungeon Master, and Ultima Underworld being the spiritual successor of the King's Field and Shadow Tower series.
You are not getting it. Most J-ARPGs and J-SRPGs use this "RPG lite" template and fit it in their style of game. Most of the J-ARPGs that don't have heavy western RPG influence.
@texasgoldrush said:
@Jag85 said:
Your argument essentially boils down to whether or not the interface displays damage numbers, which is a frivolous argument. Some J-ARPGs show damage numbers, and others don't. Some Mana games show damage numbers, and others don't. Some Ys games show damage numbers, and others don't. It's a meaningless distinction. Mana's combat system is based on Zelda, but modified with a stamina gauge, like King's Field and Souls. It's only the magic system that's turn-based, whereas the melee combat is real-time action. Besides, there are countless J-ARPGs where you dodge magic/special attacks.
Now you're just shifting the goal-post. There are countless J-ARPGs that focus on gear over stats. There are also plenty of horror-themed JRPGs with "immersive sim" elements. Dragon's Dogma is basically Monster Hunter meets Souls, with elements of other Capcom games like Breath of Fire and Devil May Cry. Soulsborne are basically hardcore Zelda-style games with Metroidvania and survival horror elements.
As I said before, there is no singular "JRPG template" that is logically consistent in anyway. The "light RPG" template (or what some erroneously call the "JRPG template") only applies to DQ-likes, and has very little to do with J-ARPGs or SRPGs.
J-ARPGs increasingly show damage numbers, its the early ones that didn't. Only one Mana game didn't show damage numbers and that was the one that Square wants to toss away. J-ARPGs usually have the template, but in action form. So are SRPGs like Ogre Battle.
No I am not shifting the goalposts. Monster Hunter's quest design isn't typical JRPG fare. Dragon's Dogma also draws from Oblivion and Fable, and has WRPG style quest design and exploration. Soulsbrone once again has roots in Wizardry, Dungeon Master, and Ultima Underworld being the spiritual successor of the King's Field and Shadow Tower series.
You are not getting it. Most J-ARPGs and J-SRPGs use this "RPG lite" template and fit it in their style of game. Most of the J-ARPGs that don't have heavy western RPG influence.
Several Mana games don't show damage numbers, including Final Fantasy Adventure, Legend of Mana, and the recent Adventures of Mana. And on the flip side, there are plenty of non-Japanese RPGs that show damage numbers, especially MMO games like World of Warcraft. According to your logic, MMO games like WOW most be JRPGs. Damage numbers are just GUI presentation, not core gameplay.
There have been countless JRPGs with open-ended quest design, from the Dragon Slayer and Metal Max franchises to the SaGa series and some of the Mana games. As for your influence argument, Dragon Quest has roots in Wizardry, so that argument makes no sense at all. And regarding your weak claims about Ultima Underworld allegedly inspiring King's Field (which we've already debated before in other threads, so I won't bother repeating myself here), even if we assumed that to be the case, Deus Ex was inspired by Suikoden (according to Warren Spector himself), so that must make Deus Ex a "JRPG" according to your logic.
Let me break it down for you. ARPGs are essentially action-adventure games with RPG mechanics. And SRPGs are essentially strategy games with RPG mechanics. These are entirely different subgenres from turn-based "lite RPGs" (a.k.a. "turn-based JRPGs" or "DQ-likes"). Again, there is no singular, all-encompassing "JRPG template".
I don't think i've ever actually played a proper JRPG. I dislike the Anime art style and nothing about them appeals to me.
@Jag85 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@Jag85 said:
Your argument essentially boils down to whether or not the interface displays damage numbers, which is a frivolous argument. Some J-ARPGs show damage numbers, and others don't. Some Mana games show damage numbers, and others don't. Some Ys games show damage numbers, and others don't. It's a meaningless distinction. Mana's combat system is based on Zelda, but modified with a stamina gauge, like King's Field and Souls. It's only the magic system that's turn-based, whereas the melee combat is real-time action. Besides, there are countless J-ARPGs where you dodge magic/special attacks.
Now you're just shifting the goal-post. There are countless J-ARPGs that focus on gear over stats. There are also plenty of horror-themed JRPGs with "immersive sim" elements. Dragon's Dogma is basically Monster Hunter meets Souls, with elements of other Capcom games like Breath of Fire and Devil May Cry. Soulsborne are basically hardcore Zelda-style games with Metroidvania and survival horror elements.
As I said before, there is no singular "JRPG template" that is logically consistent in anyway. The "light RPG" template (or what some erroneously call the "JRPG template") only applies to DQ-likes, and has very little to do with J-ARPGs or SRPGs.
J-ARPGs increasingly show damage numbers, its the early ones that didn't. Only one Mana game didn't show damage numbers and that was the one that Square wants to toss away. J-ARPGs usually have the template, but in action form. So are SRPGs like Ogre Battle.
No I am not shifting the goalposts. Monster Hunter's quest design isn't typical JRPG fare. Dragon's Dogma also draws from Oblivion and Fable, and has WRPG style quest design and exploration. Soulsbrone once again has roots in Wizardry, Dungeon Master, and Ultima Underworld being the spiritual successor of the King's Field and Shadow Tower series.
You are not getting it. Most J-ARPGs and J-SRPGs use this "RPG lite" template and fit it in their style of game. Most of the J-ARPGs that don't have heavy western RPG influence.
Several Mana games don't show damage numbers, including Final Fantasy Adventure, Legend of Mana, and the recent Adventures of Mana. And on the flip side, there are plenty of non-Japanese RPGs that show damage numbers, especially MMO games like World of Warcraft. According to your logic, MMO games like WOW most be JRPGs. Damage numbers are just GUI presentation, not core gameplay.
There have been countless JRPGs with open-ended quest design, from the Dragon Slayer and Metal Max franchises to the SaGa series and some of the Mana games. As for your influence argument, Dragon Quest has roots in Wizardry, so that argument makes no sense at all. And regarding your weak claims about Ultima Underworld allegedly inspiring King's Field (which we've already debated before in other threads, so I won't bother repeating myself here), even if we assumed that to be the case, Deus Ex was inspired by Suikoden (according to Warren Spector himself), so that must make Deus Ex a "JRPG" according to your logic.
Let me break it down for you. ARPGs are essentially action-adventure games with RPG mechanics. And SRPGs are essentially strategy games with RPG mechanics. These are entirely different subgenres from turn-based "lite RPGs" (a.k.a. "turn-based JRPGs" or "DQ-likes"). Again, there is no singular, all-encompassing "JRPG template".
You are still not getting it. First off, Adventures of Mana is a faithful remake of FF Adventure. Second its not about just damage numbers, its about how these numbers mean in the core context of the game. Most Western RPGs that show damage numbers are just means to an end, but the JRPG, the numbers are a central part of the game's gameplay in a philosophical sense. Lastly, newer action JRPGs use the template more often than older ones.
Its Dragon Quest that is the originator of what is known as the JRPG and its template.
Early JRPG games and franchises, even ones using the template, were more open than JRPGs of today, which are more linear with less exploration. You keep citing them and ignoring the progression (or regression) of the genre. And Kings Field wasn't pulled out of their ass. There is no doubt that games like UW and Dungeon Master had to be an influence as it has uncanny similarities to them. Also Deus Ex isn't a homage or clone of Suikoden like Kings Field is to old school dungeon crawlers, especially real time ones.
Dragon's Dogma simply put, plays like a WRPG, this cannot be denied. Yes, it has Japanese influence, but the philosophy of the game is far closer to a WRPG than a JRPG. And Dragons Dogma has near CRPG like design it its quests, where quests have multiple outcomes, moral choices, and alternate solutions. Some quests once again, have no combat, such as the quests dealing with Fournivel, where you decisions decide the fate of him, his daughter, and the family he is trying to evict.
Coming down to it, JRPGs are defined by the philosophy it takes, which the Japanese built around, not by its origin. That means Soulsborne and Dragons Dogma are simply put, not JRPGs, while Child of Light, definitely is. And once again, J-ARPGs and J-SRPGs commonly use the JRPG template. Hell, western made Mario + Rabbids use this template.
@SolidGame_basic: Probably my favorite genre of all time.
Final fantasy 4-7 + tactics, as well as Chrono Trigger/Secret of Mana are some of the very few old games that I regularly go back and replay.
@cainetao11 said:
@Ant_17 said:
@cainetao11 said:
@Ant_17 said:
@cainetao11 said:
Nah just want whether I die in combat to be because of real time skill and strategizing on the fly like in a real fight. Not babyback bitch turn based weaboo shyte
Huh, so Xcom is a weeab game to you?
I believe I have clarified many times its the art style and turn based combat of some JRPGs that qualify them as weab games. You do yo thang tho
And you enjoy brown like a toilet.
I guess I do, I'm engaging in a dialogue with someone that likes shit like weaboo Jrpgs
Yes, your limited taste in RPG games is better than mine. Hope Halo Wars 3 rips off Disgaea so you can call it original.
@texasgoldrush:
You're missing the point. The Mana and Ys games don't suddenly became entirely different subgenres just because some of them display damage numbers and some don't. Mana and Ys are still J-ARPGs regardless of whether damage numbers are shown. As for modern J-ARPGs, a large bulk of them are Monster Hunter style games, which usually don't show damage numbers. As for MMOs like WOW, they show damage numbers the same way as JRPGs. Therefore WOW must be a JRPG according to your logic. Again, damage numbers are just for presentation.
Dragon Quest set the "lite RPG" (a.k.a. turn-based JRPG) template. It has very little connection to the J-ARPG and J-SRPG templates, which predate Dragon Quest.
Multiple outcomes, moral choices and alternate solutions are typical visual novel elements. And many JRPGs that take inspiration from VNs also have these elements, such as the SaGa series, Metal Max series, Drakengard, Nier, Radiant Historia, Ogre series, Langrisser series, Rance series, etc. And again, Dogma is mainly Monster Hunter meets Souls, with Devil May Cry and survival horror elements.
There were many Japanese dungeon crawlers in the '80s and '90s, and there still are to this day. King's Field has roots in earlier Japanese dungeon crawlers. As for Deus Ex, its moral choices were inspired by JRPGs like Suikoden. And BioWare also took inspiration from JRPGs like Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger.
That same Japanese game design philosophy are what define Soulsborne and Dogma. The combat system and punishing difficulty rooted in Japanese game design are what made them famous, and why Western developers have so far failed to make a decent Soulslike. Western developers who fail to grasp the Japanese game design philosophy underpinning the subgenre are unable to successfully replicate the Soulslike formula.
In summary, your argument essentially boils down to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, where any JRPGs that don't fit your narrow stereotypes of JRPGs cannot possibly be true JRPGs. It's a fallacious line of reasoning. The reality is that JRPGs are immensely diverse and varied, which cannot be squeezed into a reductive one-size-fits-all template.
@texasgoldrush said:
@Jag85 said:
@texasgoldrush:
Secret of Mana is a multiplayer open-world action RPG, has a hack & slash combat system with a stamina meter, and has quests with alternate solutions. This is the same core action-RPG template as Dragon's Dogma, Soulsborne and Monster Hunter.
You aren't getting it.
While Secret of Mana has those things (and really only the beginning has a quest with alternate routes), its got that number game combat template that the Final Fantasy games have, but in a more action form. SoM is a huge example of an action RPG that fits the template.
Dragon's Dogma hides the numbers game like most WRPGs. Dragon's Dogma also has multiple solutions to quests and moral choices, as well as some immersive sim gameplay. Soulsborne is a full on immersive sim along with it being an action RPG. Monster Hunter has no intrinsic attributes which is a break from the RPG norm.
If Soulsborne are immersive sims then pretty much any game is an immersive sim. I can see how it might have similarities or some elements that immersive sims also have but you're just skewing a word for the sake of complicating your little battle of wits here.
@Ant_17: Yes, your limited taste in RPG games is better than mine. Hope Halo Wars 3 rips off Disgaea so you can call it original.Yes, your limited taste in RPG games is better than mine. Hope Halo Wars 3 rips off Disgaea so you can call it original.
My taste comes from 40 years of gaming experience. There is no competition in taste or preference. I have tried those types of games aplenty and I don't like them. I post teasing jokes about them on a forum that I don't take very seriously. Maybe you do. Good talk.
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