Do You Believe Jesus Christ Rose From The Dead? (Poll)

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#1451 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

No. Do you believe that everything was created by nothing and that life sprang forth from non-life?

blackregiment

The big bang theory does not state that everything was created from nothing and the theory of evolution doesn't state that life sprang forth from non-life.

The big ban theory speculates that a singularity that occupied no place in space or time, therefore relative to our universe nothing since space and time did not exist, expanded into everything that exists. You can call it anything you want but nothing is the best description.

The theory of evolution conveniently avoids the origin of life because it has no answer how life allegedly sprang forth from non-life in violation of natural laws. The fast of the matter is, no life, not life to evolve.

No, nothing is not the best description, because nothing=/=something, and there was something before the big bang occurred. If anything, a very simple explanation of the big bang is, for all intents and purposes, congruent with how the bible proposes how God created the universe. Before the universe was created according to the bible, it is implied that God still existed, but it was only until he brought order to chaos that the universe was created. Before the universe when there was no order, did God equate nothing?

And you do not need to know how life originated to understand how life evolves. That is like saying because we aren't 100% sure how the Earth's moon originated we can't understand its orbit.

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greenleaflink

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#1452 greenleaflink
Member since 2006 • 3686 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

I know we have been through this before but you mentioned it again. The authors of the New Testament wrote the books of the Bible under th inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Maybe your definition of god precludes the all-powerful Creator of the universe and everything in it from using fallible man to record His Word infallibly under divine inspiration, but that is not the God of the Bible, the one true God. The entire Bible records how God has used fallible man to work His perfect plan, here on earth.

blackregiment

Why would the bible constatly contradict itself then? If you are going to give full authorship of the bible to God, then why would God allow for his word to contradict itself?

The Bible does not contradict itself. A valid contradiction exists only when there is no reasonable explanation for an alleged contradiction. I realize that there are athesit web sites that publish lists of alleged contradictions. They have all been answered, If you research the issue you will find the answers to the llegec contradictions. Let me state in advaqnce, if you now choose to visit these sites, and start poting these alleged contradictions, I am not going to take the time to write out long answers for each one. They have all been answered.

In fact, the consistency of the message of Christ in the Bible is evidence of its divine inspiration.

The Bible is composed of 66 separate books, written over approximately 1,600 years, by at least 40 distinct authors, from all walks of life, written in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, on three different continents, all in perfect agreement and revealing a consistent message, the path to salvation in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament contains 39 books written from approximately 1500 to 400 BC, and the New Testament contains 27 books written from approximately 40 to 65 AD.

There is no other book that has ever come close to this remarkable achievement and wisdom. Anyone that reads and studies it and cannot see the inspiration and work of God in the Bible just doesn't want to. Try getting 40 people in the same room or on the same internet thread to agree on something and it will be clear that the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant, and preserved Word. Anyone can pick a verse out of the Bible and try to discredit it but when one openly and honestly looks at all of the evidence for the truth of the Bible in its entirety, only one that chooses to remain in rebellion to the Lord will reject it. It has been said, even by secular psychologists, that if one studies the Sermon on the Mount, in the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Matthew, the excellence of the wisdom, guidance, and life lessons of the words and teachings of Jesus in just those verses, surpasses the totality of all advice ever written in the history of man by all psychologists and sociologists that ever lived.Many concede that if all the advice ever written by those experts were condensed down, into one document, the wisdom for living in Jesus' teachings would dwarf them in significance. This is overwhelming evidence for the divine inspiration and truth of the Bible as well as the divinity of Christ.

In the Old Testament

The books of Law reveal the foundation for Christ the Messiah

The historical books reveal the preparation for Christ the Messiah

The poetic books aspire to Christ the Messiah

The books of prophecy reveal the expectation of Christ the Messiah

In the New Testament

The Gospels reveal the historical manifestation of Christ the Messiah

The Acts reveal the propagation of Christ the messiah

The Epistles reveal the interpretation of Christ the Messiah

Revelation reveals the consummation of all things in Christ the Messiah

God has not revealed His entire plan and everything regarding the natural world to man. Man could not possibly comprehend it with our finite mind. He has revealed what He, as our Creator, wants us to know.

All that is why I am Atheist. You are not gonna convert anyone here.
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blackregiment

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#1453 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

I know we have been through this before but you mentioned it again. The authors of the New Testament wrote the books of the Bible under th inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Maybe your definition of god precludes the all-powerful Creator of the universe and everything in it from using fallible man to record His Word infallibly under divine inspiration, but that is not the God of the Bible, the one true God. The entire Bible records how God has used fallible man to work His perfect plan, here on earth.

greenleaflink

Why would the bible constatly contradict itself then? If you are going to give full authorship of the bible to God, then why would God allow for his word to contradict itself?

Would people stop quoting the Bible as if it was 100% the word, the truth, it was written how many years ago? by how many people? translated by how many languages? and how much was removed and added to suits its user/submissions needs? Shesh, I get annoyed with all the quotes of things being taken out of context, and hooked up with other passages to make it sound like they are written together.

I smile when people make comments like that. It suggests that they have not done much research on the massive amout of manuscript evidence, the lectionaries, the early Bible versions, or the writings of the early Church fathers.

The massive amout of existent manuscript evidence, over 25000 manuscripts and fragments of the New Testament alone, confirms the accurracy of the Bible we have today to 99.5%. The .5% differences are mainly spelling and punctuation and affect no critical Christian doctrine of belief.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#1454 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

I know we have been through this before but you mentioned it again. The authors of the New Testament wrote the books of the Bible under th inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Maybe your definition of god precludes the all-powerful Creator of the universe and everything in it from using fallible man to record His Word infallibly under divine inspiration, but that is not the God of the Bible, the one true God. The entire Bible records how God has used fallible man to work His perfect plan, here on earth.

blackregiment

Why would the bible constatly contradict itself then? If you are going to give full authorship of the bible to God, then why would God allow for his word to contradict itself?

The Bible does not contradict itself. A valid contradiction exists only when there is no reasonable explanation for an alleged contradiction. I realize that there are athesit web sites that publish lists of alleged contradictions. They have all been answered, If you research the issue you will find the answers to the llegec contradictions. Let me state in advaqnce, if you now choose to visit these sites, and start poting these alleged contradictions, I am not going to take the time to write out long answers for each one. They have all been answered.

In fact, the consistency of the message of Christ in the Bible is evidence of its divine inspiration.

The Bible is composed of 66 separate books, written over approximately 1,600 years, by at least 40 distinct authors, from all walks of life, written in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, on three different continents, all in perfect agreement and revealing a consistent message, the path to salvation in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament contains 39 books written from approximately 1500 to 400 BC, and the New Testament contains 27 books written from approximately 40 to 65 AD.

There is no other book that has ever come close to this remarkable achievement and wisdom. Anyone that reads and studies it and cannot see the inspiration and work of God in the Bible just doesn't want to. Try getting 40 people in the same room or on the same internet thread to agree on something and it will be clear that the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant, and preserved Word. Anyone can pick a verse out of the Bible and try to discredit it but when one openly and honestly looks at all of the evidence for the truth of the Bible in its entirety, only one that chooses to remain in rebellion to the Lord will reject it. It has been said, even by secular psychologists, that if one studies the Sermon on the Mount, in the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Matthew, the excellence of the wisdom, guidance, and life lessons of the words and teachings of Jesus in just those verses, surpasses the totality of all advice ever written in the history of man by all psychologists and sociologists that ever lived.Many concede that if all the advice ever written by those experts were condensed down, into one document, the wisdom for living in Jesus' teachings would dwarf them in significance. This is overwhelming evidence for the divine inspiration and truth of the Bible as well as the divinity of Christ.

In the Old Testament

The books of Law reveal the foundation for Christ the Messiah

The historical books reveal the preparation for Christ the Messiah

The poetic books aspire to Christ the Messiah

The books of prophecy reveal the expectation of Christ the Messiah

In the New Testament

The Gospels reveal the historical manifestation of Christ the Messiah

The Acts reveal the propagation of Christ the messiah

The Epistles reveal the interpretation of Christ the Messiah

Revelation reveals the consummation of all things in Christ the Messiah

God has not revealed His entire plan and everything regarding the natural world to man. Man could not possibly comprehend it with our finite mind. He has revealed what He, as our Creator, wants us to know.

So instead of refuting my claim, you ask me to "look it up", and then you talk about how accurate the bible is. Perhaps you could be so kind and actually show me something that affirms the bible's accuracy and debunks apparent contradictions.

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blackregiment

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#1455 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Why would the bible constatly contradict itself then? If you are going to give full authorship of the bible to God, then why would God allow for his word to contradict itself?

greenleaflink

The Bible does not contradict itself. A valid contradiction exists only when there is no reasonable explanation for an alleged contradiction. I realize that there are athesit web sites that publish lists of alleged contradictions. They have all been answered, If you research the issue you will find the answers to the llegec contradictions. Let me state in advaqnce, if you now choose to visit these sites, and start poting these alleged contradictions, I am not going to take the time to write out long answers for each one. They have all been answered.

In fact, the consistency of the message of Christ in the Bible is evidence of its divine inspiration.

The Bible is composed of 66 separate books, written over approximately 1,600 years, by at least 40 distinct authors, from all walks of life, written in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, on three different continents, all in perfect agreement and revealing a consistent message, the path to salvation in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament contains 39 books written from approximately 1500 to 400 BC, and the New Testament contains 27 books written from approximately 40 to 65 AD.

There is no other book that has ever come close to this remarkable achievement and wisdom. Anyone that reads and studies it and cannot see the inspiration and work of God in the Bible just doesn't want to. Try getting 40 people in the same room or on the same internet thread to agree on something and it will be clear that the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant, and preserved Word. Anyone can pick a verse out of the Bible and try to discredit it but when one openly and honestly looks at all of the evidence for the truth of the Bible in its entirety, only one that chooses to remain in rebellion to the Lord will reject it. It has been said, even by secular psychologists, that if one studies the Sermon on the Mount, in the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Matthew, the excellence of the wisdom, guidance, and life lessons of the words and teachings of Jesus in just those verses, surpasses the totality of all advice ever written in the history of man by all psychologists and sociologists that ever lived.Many concede that if all the advice ever written by those experts were condensed down, into one document, the wisdom for living in Jesus' teachings would dwarf them in significance. This is overwhelming evidence for the divine inspiration and truth of the Bible as well as the divinity of Christ.

In the Old Testament

The books of Law reveal the foundation for Christ the Messiah

The historical books reveal the preparation for Christ the Messiah

The poetic books aspire to Christ the Messiah

The books of prophecy reveal the expectation of Christ the Messiah

In the New Testament

The Gospels reveal the historical manifestation of Christ the Messiah

The Acts reveal the propagation of Christ the messiah

The Epistles reveal the interpretation of Christ the Messiah

Revelation reveals the consummation of all things in Christ the Messiah

God has not revealed His entire plan and everything regarding the natural world to man. Man could not possibly comprehend it with our finite mind. He has revealed what He, as our Creator, wants us to know.

All that is why I am Atheist. You are not gonna convert anyone here.

People don't "convert" anyone, only God, through the power of the Holy Spirit can draw one near to Him and only if a person chooses to seek the Lord in spirit and in truth.

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MFaraz_Hayat

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#1456 MFaraz_Hayat
Member since 2006 • 1794 Posts

[QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Here are three links that will help answer your question. I hope you find them useful.

http://www.gotquestions.org/correct-religion.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/so-many-religions.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christianity-unique.html

blackregiment

Those links merely used verses of Bible, and said that since Bible is the word of God and hence only contains truth the other religions must be false......... That is no proof.

That is an oversimplification of the content of those articles. There is far more material there than just Bible verses. Anyone that reads them will see that.

Yes, I know. There are references to historical accuracy of the Bible. However, in relation to Islam and Judaism verses of Bible have been used.......
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Invertedzero

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#1457 Invertedzero
Member since 2006 • 25 Posts
hence - heaven and hell... the seperation. The point in living here on this earth is that its an experience, a test to see if we can still believe in God despite everything that's going on and against it. It's to get us to think beyond this world/universe that we live in. When we die it is not the end - we will end up in heaven or hell. and to say these places are imaginary is the same as when people were witchunted etc for saying the earth was round or other similar scientific developments. Until we have this 'scientific knowledge' of a particular thing - it seems stupid to our common sense. To many of us just 50 years ago, or even today, quantum physics seems silly, it doesn't work by our conventional understanding, but its nevertheless real. Before we all die on Earth, im sure there'll be scientific and technological developments that back now we thought may be foolish or impossible. Back to the point, If we suffer here on earth, what's the worst that can happen? death, we die, then if we've lived as christians (this is what i believe), even if not 'good' christians (because to God's eyes we ALL have sinned - going against his will in whatever way at whatever point in life there is), but our hearts are in the right place wanting to follow and beliee in God and continually repent of our sins, then we continue to live in the structure called eternity with God. To us this seems quite abstract asnd we think how can it be measured whether someone is in a state of believing or repentance? but to us as humans before we couldn't figure out what it meant to have the square root of a negative number until someone invented the imaginary/complex numbers as a tool for doing this - then it seems obvious (if you've done maths). Remember that god would be able to measure all these attributes more accurately than we can measure a physical thing like an A4 sheet of paper. Furthermore, God's spritual son Jesus (the mechanics of being a 'son' in the spritiual realm are different to that in the biological/physical), DIED and SUFFERED here on Earth. So what makes us so special that we should be protected from it? JESUS WASN'T WEAK AND FEEBLE, he had the POWER to DESTROY THE EARTH if he so wished, but he suffered all this for us. When we create a computer program, or even when we're playing a simulation game - if something doesn't work properly - we delete it, even with real animals etc, now recognising that God is a superior being to us, why shouldn't he do the same, when seeing that we're not doing things as he wanted after giving us free will? Death is nothing to God, (as can be seen clearly by the ressurections in the Bible) and there are probably worse things that God knows about than death that we don't have a concept of... But as he loved us he went and changed the process so our salvation wsn't depending on OUR ability to follow God's rules, but believing in the death and ressurection of Jesus, and wanting to turn away from sin, hence truly repenting. The only reason we feel it should be based on our actions is because it is something we can measure ourselves, but God can just as easily measure out belief and intentions. after this God may do something different, so long as it doesn't clash with the previous promises made, but anyhow He is God so would be able to make a process that seems impossible to make something possible. Just start believing in things outside of this box that we live in (as physicists have to do), and you'll see that its entirely possible. If something doesn't make sense, don't just go 'pffh' make the effort to find out - there will be many christians that cant give answers themselves, and as humans we will never know everything, just as someone playing a computer game can't see the code behind it unless they use a tool to do so. But there are Christians and resources out there with many if the answers you and I have questions to, its just because some christians only have a basic understanding (i may say even i do), and some people labelled under 'christian' aren't actually very christian when it comes down to it at all, but just use it as a religious label.
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greenleaflink

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#1458 greenleaflink
Member since 2006 • 3686 Posts

[QUOTE="greenleaflink"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

The Bible does not contradict itself. A valid contradiction exists only when there is no reasonable explanation for an alleged contradiction. I realize that there are athesit web sites that publish lists of alleged contradictions. They have all been answered, If you research the issue you will find the answers to the llegec contradictions. Let me state in advaqnce, if you now choose to visit these sites, and start poting these alleged contradictions, I am not going to take the time to write out long answers for each one. They have all been answered.

In fact, the consistency of the message of Christ in the Bible is evidence of its divine inspiration.

The Bible is composed of 66 separate books, written over approximately 1,600 years, by at least 40 distinct authors, from all walks of life, written in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, on three different continents, all in perfect agreement and revealing a consistent message, the path to salvation in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament contains 39 books written from approximately 1500 to 400 BC, and the New Testament contains 27 books written from approximately 40 to 65 AD.

There is no other book that has ever come close to this remarkable achievement and wisdom. Anyone that reads and studies it and cannot see the inspiration and work of God in the Bible just doesn't want to. Try getting 40 people in the same room or on the same internet thread to agree on something and it will be clear that the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant, and preserved Word. Anyone can pick a verse out of the Bible and try to discredit it but when one openly and honestly looks at all of the evidence for the truth of the Bible in its entirety, only one that chooses to remain in rebellion to the Lord will reject it. It has been said, even by secular psychologists, that if one studies the Sermon on the Mount, in the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Matthew, the excellence of the wisdom, guidance, and life lessons of the words and teachings of Jesus in just those verses, surpasses the totality of all advice ever written in the history of man by all psychologists and sociologists that ever lived.Many concede that if all the advice ever written by those experts were condensed down, into one document, the wisdom for living in Jesus' teachings would dwarf them in significance. This is overwhelming evidence for the divine inspiration and truth of the Bible as well as the divinity of Christ.

In the Old Testament

The books of Law reveal the foundation for Christ the Messiah

The historical books reveal the preparation for Christ the Messiah

The poetic books aspire to Christ the Messiah

The books of prophecy reveal the expectation of Christ the Messiah

In the New Testament

The Gospels reveal the historical manifestation of Christ the Messiah

The Acts reveal the propagation of Christ the messiah

The Epistles reveal the interpretation of Christ the Messiah

Revelation reveals the consummation of all things in Christ the Messiah

God has not revealed His entire plan and everything regarding the natural world to man. Man could not possibly comprehend it with our finite mind. He has revealed what He, as our Creator, wants us to know.

blackregiment

All that is why I am Atheist. You are not gonna convert anyone here.

Peolple don't "convert" anyone, only God, through the power of the Holy Spirit can draw one near to Him and only if a person chooses to seek the Lord in spirit and in truth.

WoW, you thoroughly convinced yourself eh. Answer me these three questions: 1. How old do YOU think the Earth is? [give me a est. number] 2. Explain to me what God had intended with the Dinosaurs, and well if you can't explain, what does your Holy Book say about it. 3. Do you take the entire Bible Literal, I mean Literal, Do you just pick and choose the nice sounding verses and leave out the ones that don't flow with your ideology?
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blackregiment

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#1459 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Why would the bible constatly contradict itself then? If you are going to give full authorship of the bible to God, then why would God allow for his word to contradict itself?

-Sun_Tzu-

The Bible does not contradict itself. A valid contradiction exists only when there is no reasonable explanation for an alleged contradiction. I realize that there are athesit web sites that publish lists of alleged contradictions. They have all been answered, If you research the issue you will find the answers to the llegec contradictions. Let me state in advaqnce, if you now choose to visit these sites, and start poting these alleged contradictions, I am not going to take the time to write out long answers for each one. They have all been answered.

In fact, the consistency of the message of Christ in the Bible is evidence of its divine inspiration.

The Bible is composed of 66 separate books, written over approximately 1,600 years, by at least 40 distinct authors, from all walks of life, written in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, on three different continents, all in perfect agreement and revealing a consistent message, the path to salvation in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament contains 39 books written from approximately 1500 to 400 BC, and the New Testament contains 27 books written from approximately 40 to 65 AD.

There is no other book that has ever come close to this remarkable achievement and wisdom. Anyone that reads and studies it and cannot see the inspiration and work of God in the Bible just doesn't want to. Try getting 40 people in the same room or on the same internet thread to agree on something and it will be clear that the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant, and preserved Word. Anyone can pick a verse out of the Bible and try to discredit it but when one openly and honestly looks at all of the evidence for the truth of the Bible in its entirety, only one that chooses to remain in rebellion to the Lord will reject it. It has been said, even by secular psychologists, that if one studies the Sermon on the Mount, in the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Matthew, the excellence of the wisdom, guidance, and life lessons of the words and teachings of Jesus in just those verses, surpasses the totality of all advice ever written in the history of man by all psychologists and sociologists that ever lived.Many concede that if all the advice ever written by those experts were condensed down, into one document, the wisdom for living in Jesus' teachings would dwarf them in significance. This is overwhelming evidence for the divine inspiration and truth of the Bible as well as the divinity of Christ.

In the Old Testament

The books of Law reveal the foundation for Christ the Messiah

The historical books reveal the preparation for Christ the Messiah

The poetic books aspire to Christ the Messiah

The books of prophecy reveal the expectation of Christ the Messiah

In the New Testament

The Gospels reveal the historical manifestation of Christ the Messiah

The Acts reveal the propagation of Christ the messiah

The Epistles reveal the interpretation of Christ the Messiah

Revelation reveals the consummation of all things in Christ the Messiah

God has not revealed His entire plan and everything regarding the natural world to man. Man could not possibly comprehend it with our finite mind. He has revealed what He, as our Creator, wants us to know.

So instead of refuting my claim, you ask me to "look it up", and then you talk about how accurate the bible is. Perhaps you could be so kind and actually show me something that affirms the bible's accuracy and debunks apparent contradictions.

I am not going to do your research for you. One must do that on their own. You asked for evidence that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Here is some information that will answer that.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html

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Invertedzero

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#1460 Invertedzero
Member since 2006 • 25 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

chessmaster1989,

You need to fix your post, You have things attributed to me that I did not write. That being said, I will try to explain it again. You brought up the pain and suffering in the world and seem to expect God to "fix it", make it "go away". I stated that in order for that to happen, God would have to remove our free will to choose to disobey Him. Sin is caused by disobedience to God's moral law. God won't do that because He wants us to obey and love Him of our own free will. True love can only exist if we have a free will to choose not to love. As long as man has a free will, there will be those that choose to disobey God and therefore there will be sin, pain, and suffering in the world. You may want that but there are those that don't as evidenced by those that choose right now to live in disobedience to His moral law.

God has already provided a way to reduce sin, pain, and suffering in this world, it is called coming to Christ, serving Him, and living in obedience to Him.

chessmaster1989

I fixed that post. Just accidentally attributed your quote to me and my quote to you ;).

But, anyway, you missed my point. I argued that there is no reason for God to allow a group of people that is suffering from persecution, to continue suffering. The problem, say, of a dictator systematically murdering a group of people can be solved by moving members of that group (with their permission) to another location. This in no way affects the dictator's free will, since he has not altered the dictator's willingness to inflict harms upon the group.

And, if God exists and thinks that allowing a person to do what he wants by killing thousands of innocents, is more important than preventing the murder of those thousands, then I have absolutely no respect for that God.

hence - heaven and hell... the seperation. The point in living here on this earth is that its an experience, a test to see if we can still believe in God despite everything that's going on and against it. It's to get us to think beyond this world/universe that we live in. When we die it is not the end - we will end up in heaven or hell. and to say these places are imaginary is the same as when people were witchunted etc for saying the earth was round or other similar scientific developments. Until we have this 'scientific knowledge' of a particular thing - it seems stupid to our common sense. To many of us just 50 years ago, or even today, quantum physics seems silly, it doesn't work by our conventional understanding, but its nevertheless real. Before we all die on Earth, im sure there'll be scientific and technological developments that back now we thought may be foolish or impossible. Back to the point, If we suffer here on earth, what's the worst that can happen? death, we die, then if we've lived as christians (this is what i believe), even if not 'good' christians (because to God's eyes we ALL have sinned - going against his will in whatever way at whatever point in life there is), but our hearts are in the right place wanting to follow and beliee in God and continually repent of our sins, then we continue to live in the structure called eternity with God. To us this seems quite abstract asnd we think how can it be measured whether someone is in a state of believing or repentance? but to us as humans before we couldn't figure out what it meant to have the square root of a negative number until someone invented the imaginary/complex numbers as a tool for doing this - then it seems obvious (if you've done maths). Remember that god would be able to measure all these attributes more accurately than we can measure a physical thing like an A4 sheet of paper. Furthermore, God's spritual son Jesus (the mechanics of being a 'son' in the spritiual realm are different to that in the biological/physical), DIED and SUFFERED here on Earth. So what makes us so special that we should be protected from it? JESUS WASN'T WEAK AND FEEBLE, he had the POWER to DESTROY THE EARTH if he so wished, but he suffered all this for us. When we create a computer program, or even when we're playing a simulation game - if something doesn't work properly - we delete it, even with real animals etc, now recognising that God is a superior being to us, why shouldn't he do the same, when seeing that we're not doing things as he wanted after giving us free will? Death is nothing to God, (as can be seen clearly by the ressurections in the Bible) and there are probably worse things that God knows about than death that we don't have a concept of... But as he loved us he went and changed the process so our salvation wsn't depending on OUR ability to follow God's rules, but believing in the death and ressurection of Jesus, and wanting to turn away from sin, hence truly repenting. The only reason we feel it should be based on our actions is because it is something we can measure ourselves, but God can just as easily measure out belief and intentions. after this God may do something different, so long as it doesn't clash with the previous promises made, but anyhow He is God so would be able to make a process that seems impossible to make something possible. Just start believing in things outside of this box that we live in (as physicists have to do), and you'll see that its entirely possible. If something doesn't make sense, don't just go 'pffh' make the effort to find out - there will be many christians that cant give answers themselves, and as humans we will never know everything, just as someone playing a computer game can't see the code behind it unless they use a tool to do so. But there are Christians and resources out there with many if the answers you and I have questions to, its just because some christians only have a basic understanding (i may say even i do), and some people labelled under 'christian' aren't actually very christian when it comes down to it at all, but just use it as a religious label. sorry i meant to quote this
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#1461 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

The Bible does not contradict itself. A valid contradiction exists only when there is no reasonable explanation for an alleged contradiction. I realize that there are athesit web sites that publish lists of alleged contradictions. They have all been answered, If you research the issue you will find the answers to the llegec contradictions. Let me state in advaqnce, if you now choose to visit these sites, and start poting these alleged contradictions, I am not going to take the time to write out long answers for each one. They have all been answered.

In fact, the consistency of the message of Christ in the Bible is evidence of its divine inspiration.

The Bible is composed of 66 separate books, written over approximately 1,600 years, by at least 40 distinct authors, from all walks of life, written in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, on three different continents, all in perfect agreement and revealing a consistent message, the path to salvation in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament contains 39 books written from approximately 1500 to 400 BC, and the New Testament contains 27 books written from approximately 40 to 65 AD.

There is no other book that has ever come close to this remarkable achievement and wisdom. Anyone that reads and studies it and cannot see the inspiration and work of God in the Bible just doesn't want to. Try getting 40 people in the same room or on the same internet thread to agree on something and it will be clear that the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant, and preserved Word. Anyone can pick a verse out of the Bible and try to discredit it but when one openly and honestly looks at all of the evidence for the truth of the Bible in its entirety, only one that chooses to remain in rebellion to the Lord will reject it. It has been said, even by secular psychologists, that if one studies the Sermon on the Mount, in the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Matthew, the excellence of the wisdom, guidance, and life lessons of the words and teachings of Jesus in just those verses, surpasses the totality of all advice ever written in the history of man by all psychologists and sociologists that ever lived.Many concede that if all the advice ever written by those experts were condensed down, into one document, the wisdom for living in Jesus' teachings would dwarf them in significance. This is overwhelming evidence for the divine inspiration and truth of the Bible as well as the divinity of Christ.

In the Old Testament

The books of Law reveal the foundation for Christ the Messiah

The historical books reveal the preparation for Christ the Messiah

The poetic books aspire to Christ the Messiah

The books of prophecy reveal the expectation of Christ the Messiah

In the New Testament

The Gospels reveal the historical manifestation of Christ the Messiah

The Acts reveal the propagation of Christ the messiah

The Epistles reveal the interpretation of Christ the Messiah

Revelation reveals the consummation of all things in Christ the Messiah

God has not revealed His entire plan and everything regarding the natural world to man. Man could not possibly comprehend it with our finite mind. He has revealed what He, as our Creator, wants us to know.

blackregiment

So instead of refuting my claim, you ask me to "look it up", and then you talk about how accurate the bible is. Perhaps you could be so kind and actually show me something that affirms the bible's accuracy and debunks apparent contradictions.

I am not going to do your research for you. One must do that on their own. You asked for evidence that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Here is some information that will answer that.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html

From your own link, "After looking at the evidence one can say without a doubt that yes, the Bible is truly God's Word." This is the biggest of many problems I have with that statement; some of the events that the bible depicts are inherently improbable and incredibly irrational. Why would God promote irrational thought and behavior? Everywhere else in the natural world, irrational thought and behavior is punished. If you are stranded on a desert island and are extremely thirsty, you can irrationally drink sea water (it IS water after all) but you will die a miserable death by drinking it. If the president of the U.S. were to think and behave irrationally the well being of the country would be at stake. So why would God punish irrational thought and behavior everywhere else in the natural world that he created yet promote it vis-a-vis his own word and a belief in his existence. Such a promotion could inadvertently lead to irrational and unreasonable thought and behavior elsewhere in the natural world.

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#1462 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="greenleaflink"] All that is why I am Atheist. You are not gonna convert anyone here.greenleaflink

Peolple don't "convert" anyone, only God, through the power of the Holy Spirit can draw one near to Him and only if a person chooses to seek the Lord in spirit and in truth.

WoW, you thoroughly convinced yourself eh. Answer me these three questions: 1. How old do YOU think the Earth is? [give me a est. number] 2. Explain to me what God had intended with the Dinosaurs, and well if you can't explain, what does your Holy Book say about it. 3. Do you take the entire Bible Literal, I mean Literal, Do you just pick and choose the nice sounding verses and leave out the ones that don't flow with your ideology?

No, the testimony of the Holy Spirit led me to the truth, kicking and screaming all the way. :)

Your questions are irrelevant to the discussion and the thread topic so I will address them briefly.

1. The Word of God does Bible does not give an age for the earth. It is not a detailed science book. It is a book of redemptive history and God plan of redemption in Christ. That being said, I believe in a young earth.

2. I do not know God's mind relative to His purpose for creating dinosaurs. The Bible is not a detailed science book however there are references to behemoths in it. If you have an interest in this, I suggest you read the Bible and you will find them.

3. I accept the Bible as the literal Word of God. The Bible uses many different literary methods and is quite clear when something is to be taken literally or metaphorically. The Holy Spirit leads born again Christians to the truth of God's Word and helps us to understand it. Without the Holy Spirit as one's guide, they will have difficulty understanding God's Word from a spiritual perspective.

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#1463 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

So instead of refuting my claim, you ask me to "look it up", and then you talk about how accurate the bible is. Perhaps you could be so kind and actually show me something that affirms the bible's accuracy and debunks apparent contradictions.

-Sun_Tzu-

I am not going to do your research for you. One must do that on their own. You asked for evidence that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Here is some information that will answer that.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html

From your own link, "After looking at the evidence one can say without a doubt that yes, the Bible is truly God's Word." This is the biggest of many problems I have with that statement; some of the events that the bible depicts are inherently improbable and incredibly irrational. Why would God promote irrational thought and behavior? Everywhere else in the natural world, irrational thought and behavior is punished. If you are stranded on a desert island and are extremely thirsty, you can irrationally drink sea water (it IS water after all) but you will die a miserable death by drinking it. If the president of the U.S. were to think and behave irrationally the well being of the country would be at stake. So why would God punish irrational thought and behavior everywhere else in the natural world that he created yet promote it vis-a-vis his own word and a belief in his existence. Such a promotion could inadvertently lead to irrational and unreasonable thought and behavior elsewhere in the natural world.

Just because finite man's understanding of the power of our supernatural God leads them to consider events such as miracles "improbable and incredibly irrational" does not make it so. God is supernatural. He exists outside of our natural world. He is not limited by the laws of the natural world.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

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#1464 greenleaflink
Member since 2006 • 3686 Posts

[QUOTE="greenleaflink"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Peolple don't "convert" anyone, only God, through the power of the Holy Spirit can draw one near to Him and only if a person chooses to seek the Lord in spirit and in truth.

blackregiment

WoW, you thoroughly convinced yourself eh. Answer me these three questions: 1. How old do YOU think the Earth is? [give me a est. number] 2. Explain to me what God had intended with the Dinosaurs, and well if you can't explain, what does your Holy Book say about it. 3. Do you take the entire Bible Literal, I mean Literal, Do you just pick and choose the nice sounding verses and leave out the ones that don't flow with your ideology?

No, the testimony of the Holy Spirit led me to the truth, kicking and screaming all the way. :)

Your questions are irrelevant to the discussion and the thread topic so I will address them briefly.

1. The Word of God does Bible does not give an age for the earth. It is not a detailed science book. It is a book of redemptive history and God plan of redemption in Christ. That being said, I believe in a young earth.

2. I do not know God's mind relative to His purpose for creating dinosaurs. The Bible is not a detailed science book however there are references to behemoths in it. If you have an interest in this, I suggest you read the Bible and you will find them.

3. I accept the Bible as the literal Word of God. The Bible uses many different literary methods and is quite clear when something is to be taken literally or metaphorically. The Holy Spirit leads born again Christians to the truth of God's Word and helps us to understand it. Without the Holy Spirit as one's guide, they will have difficulty understanding God's Word from a spiritual perspective.

Okay, your bed you make it, sleep in it. I have my own. I find it funny that your are a Christian being born into it. Had you been born in the Middle East you would be the same with your conviction with Islam. I don't believe in a God, I've always asked questions and found no answers...why are there different languages? Tower of BABEL...really the sky is how high? The Earth is not a young Earth. Dinosaurs are real. Evolution is where we came from, and that sealed the deal. I believe in facts, reason and science, and no blind faith or false hope makes me a less of person or a morally lacking human. When we die, take our last breath, that is it, there is no spending 80 years on this earth to worry about a eternity in hell or heaven, via Muhammad or Jesus, or any future rapture. This our only dance and what we do on earth matters, how we take care of it and each other.
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#1465 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

chessmaster1989,

You need to fix your post, You have things attributed to me that I did not write. That being said, I will try to explain it again. You brought up the pain and suffering in the world and seem to expect God to "fix it", make it "go away". I stated that in order for that to happen, God would have to remove our free will to choose to disobey Him. Sin is caused by disobedience to God's moral law. God won't do that because He wants us to obey and love Him of our own free will. True love can only exist if we have a free will to choose not to love. As long as man has a free will, there will be those that choose to disobey God and therefore there will be sin, pain, and suffering in the world. You may want that but there are those that don't as evidenced by those that choose right now to live in disobedience to His moral law.

God has already provided a way to reduce sin, pain, and suffering in this world, it is called coming to Christ, serving Him, and living in obedience to Him.

Invertedzero

I fixed that post. Just accidentally attributed your quote to me and my quote to you ;).

But, anyway, you missed my point. I argued that there is no reason for God to allow a group of people that is suffering from persecution, to continue suffering. The problem, say, of a dictator systematically murdering a group of people can be solved by moving members of that group (with their permission) to another location. This in no way affects the dictator's free will, since he has not altered the dictator's willingness to inflict harms upon the group.

And, if God exists and thinks that allowing a person to do what he wants by killing thousands of innocents, is more important than preventing the murder of those thousands, then I have absolutely no respect for that God.

hence - heaven and hell... the seperation. The point in living here on this earth is that its an experience, a test to see if we can still believe in God despite everything that's going on and against it. It's to get us to think beyond this world/universe that we live in. When we die it is not the end - we will end up in heaven or hell. and to say these places are imaginary is the same as when people were witchunted etc for saying the earth was round or other similar scientific developments. Until we have this 'scientific knowledge' of a particular thing - it seems stupid to our common sense. To many of us just 50 years ago, or even today, quantum physics seems silly, it doesn't work by our conventional understanding, but its nevertheless real. Before we all die on Earth, im sure there'll be scientific and technological developments that back now we thought may be foolish or impossible. Back to the point, If we suffer here on earth, what's the worst that can happen? death, we die, then if we've lived as christians (this is what i believe), even if not 'good' christians (because to God's eyes we ALL have sinned - going against his will in whatever way at whatever point in life there is), but our hearts are in the right place wanting to follow and beliee in God and continually repent of our sins, then we continue to live in the structure called eternity with God. To us this seems quite abstract asnd we think how can it be measured whether someone is in a state of believing or repentance? but to us as humans before we couldn't figure out what it meant to have the square root of a negative number until someone invented the imaginary/complex numbers as a tool for doing this - then it seems obvious (if you've done maths). Remember that god would be able to measure all these attributes more accurately than we can measure a physical thing like an A4 sheet of paper. Furthermore, God's spritual son Jesus (the mechanics of being a 'son' in the spritiual realm are different to that in the biological/physical), DIED and SUFFERED here on Earth. So what makes us so special that we should be protected from it? JESUS WASN'T WEAK AND FEEBLE, he had the POWER to DESTROY THE EARTH if he so wished, but he suffered all this for us. When we create a computer program, or even when we're playing a simulation game - if something doesn't work properly - we delete it, even with real animals etc, now recognising that God is a superior being to us, why shouldn't he do the same, when seeing that we're not doing things as he wanted after giving us free will? Death is nothing to God, (as can be seen clearly by the ressurections in the Bible) and there are probably worse things that God knows about than death that we don't have a concept of... But as he loved us he went and changed the process so our salvation wsn't depending on OUR ability to follow God's rules, but believing in the death and ressurection of Jesus, and wanting to turn away from sin, hence truly repenting. The only reason we feel it should be based on our actions is because it is something we can measure ourselves, but God can just as easily measure out belief and intentions. after this God may do something different, so long as it doesn't clash with the previous promises made, but anyhow He is God so would be able to make a process that seems impossible to make something possible. Just start believing in things outside of this box that we live in (as physicists have to do), and you'll see that its entirely possible. If something doesn't make sense, don't just go 'pffh' make the effort to find out - there will be many christians that cant give answers themselves, and as humans we will never know everything, just as someone playing a computer game can't see the code behind it unless they use a tool to do so. But there are Christians and resources out there with many if the answers you and I have questions to, its just because some christians only have a basic understanding (i may say even i do), and some people labelled under 'christian' aren't actually very christian when it comes down to it at all, but just use it as a religious label. sorry i meant to quote this

That is well said and well written.

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#1466 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

I am not going to do your research for you. One must do that on their own. You asked for evidence that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Here is some information that will answer that.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html

blackregiment

From your own link, "After looking at the evidence one can say without a doubt that yes, the Bible is truly God's Word." This is the biggest of many problems I have with that statement; some of the events that the bible depicts are inherently improbable and incredibly irrational. Why would God promote irrational thought and behavior? Everywhere else in the natural world, irrational thought and behavior is punished. If you are stranded on a desert island and are extremely thirsty, you can irrationally drink sea water (it IS water after all) but you will die a miserable death by drinking it. If the president of the U.S. were to think and behave irrationally the well being of the country would be at stake. So why would God punish irrational thought and behavior everywhere else in the natural world that he created yet promote it vis-a-vis his own word and a belief in his existence. Such a promotion could inadvertently lead to irrational and unreasonable thought and behavior elsewhere in the natural world.

Just because finite man's understanding of the power of our supernatural God leads them to consider events such as miracles "improbable and incredibly irrational" does not make it so. God is supernatural. He exists ourside of our natural world. He is not limited by the laws of the natural world.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Why would God create the laws of the natural world in the first place if he knew he would constantly break them whenever he pleases? God created man with a finite understanding of the power of God, so to man he appears to be endorsing irrational thought and behavior. Now God would obviously know that his acts would appear irrational and improbable to man with a finite understanding, so why give man a finite understanding?

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#1467 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

Okay, your bed you make it, sleep in it. I have my own. I find it funny that your are a Christian being born into it.

greenleaflink

That is a false asumption. I was not "born into", as in physical birth, Christianity. Apparently you are confusing born again, a spiritual rebirth in Christ with being physically born. Two different things.

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#1468 greenleaflink
Member since 2006 • 3686 Posts

[QUOTE="greenleaflink"]

Okay, your bed you make it, sleep in it. I have my own. I find it funny that your are a Christian being born into it.

blackregiment

That is a false asumption. I was not "born into", as in physical birth, Christianity. Apparently you are confusing born again, a spiritual rebirth in Christ with being physically born. Two different things.

Where were you born? What Religion is your parents?
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#1469 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] From your own link, "After looking at the evidence one can say without a doubt that yes, the Bible is truly God's Word." This is the biggest of many problems I have with that statement; some of the events that the bible depicts are inherently improbable and incredibly irrational. Why would God promote irrational thought and behavior? Everywhere else in the natural world, irrational thought and behavior is punished. If you are stranded on a desert island and are extremely thirsty, you can irrationally drink sea water (it IS water after all) but you will die a miserable death by drinking it. If the president of the U.S. were to think and behave irrationally the well being of the country would be at stake. So why would God punish irrational thought and behavior everywhere else in the natural world that he created yet promote it vis-a-vis his own word and a belief in his existence. Such a promotion could inadvertently lead to irrational and unreasonable thought and behavior elsewhere in the natural world.

-Sun_Tzu-

Just because finite man's understanding of the power of our supernatural God leads them to consider events such as miracles "improbable and incredibly irrational" does not make it so. God is supernatural. He exists outside of our natural world. He is not limited by the laws of the natural world.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Why would God create the laws of the natural world in the first place if he knew he would constantly break them whenever he pleases? God created man with a finite understanding of the power of God, so to man he appears to be endorsing irrational thought and behavior. Now God would obviously know that his acts would appear irrational and improbable to man with a finite understanding, so why give man a finite understanding?

God created the laws of nature to give order to His creation. They do not exclude Him form intervening in His creation. In regards to the rest of your post, it appears that you feel that God should have created man as omniscient, on a level as Him. God created us as He, not we chose. He gave us the ability to reason and know Him through His revelation in His creation, in His Word, in Jesus Christ, and in the Holy spirit. He has revealed what we need to know to be reunited with Him, in this world and in eternity, in Christ. He also gave us a free will to accept and act on that revelation or reject it.

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#1470 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="greenleaflink"]

Okay, your bed you make it, sleep in it. I have my own. I find it funny that your are a Christian being born into it.

greenleaflink

That is a false asumption. I was not "born into", as in physical birth, Christianity. Apparently you are confusing born again, a spiritual rebirth in Christ with being physically born. Two different things.

Where were you born? What Religion is your parents?

Sorry but our family rule is that we do not disclose personal information over the internet. It is also irrelevant to the thread topic of Christ's resurrection and God's redemptive plan in Christ.

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#1471 greenleaflink
Member since 2006 • 3686 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Just because finite man's understanding of the power of our supernatural God leads them to consider events such as miracles "improbable and incredibly irrational" does not make it so. God is supernatural. He exists outside of our natural world. He is not limited by the laws of the natural world.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

blackregiment

Why would God create the laws of the natural world in the first place if he knew he would constantly break them whenever he pleases? God created man with a finite understanding of the power of God, so to man he appears to be endorsing irrational thought and behavior. Now God would obviously know that his acts would appear irrational and improbable to man with a finite understanding, so why give man a finite understanding?

God created the laws of nature to give order to His creation. They do not exclude Him form intervening in His creation. In regards to the rest of your post, it appears that you feel that God should have created man as omniscient, on a level as Him. God created us as He, not we chose. He gave us the ability to reason and know Him through His revelation in His creation, in His Word, in Jesus Christ, and in the Holy spirit. He has revealed what we need to know to be reunited with Him, in this world and in eternity, in Christ. He also gave us a free will to accept and act on that revelation or reject it.

What about people who have no idea of the existence of God, Jesus. They live and die, where do they go? When you remove all the poetic language you talk with, it lacks alot of logical evidence.

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#1472 greenleaflink
Member since 2006 • 3686 Posts

[QUOTE="greenleaflink"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

That is a false asumption. I was not "born into", as in physical birth, Christianity. Apparently you are confusing born again, a spiritual rebirth in Christ with being physically born. Two different things.

blackregiment

Where were you born? What Religion is your parents?

Sorry but our family rule is that we do not disclose personal information over the internet.

Okay don't disclose where you were born. Is your parents Religion a matter of non disclosure as well?
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#1473 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="greenleaflink"] Where were you born? What Religion is your parents?greenleaflink

Sorry but our family rule is that we do not disclose personal information over the internet.

Okay don't disclose where you were born. Is your parents Religion a matter of non disclosure as well?

My parents were not Christians but praise God, He used me to help lead them to Christ. They are Christians now.

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#1474 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Why would God create the laws of the natural world in the first place if he knew he would constantly break them whenever he pleases? God created man with a finite understanding of the power of God, so to man he appears to be endorsing irrational thought and behavior. Now God would obviously know that his acts would appear irrational and improbable to man with a finite understanding, so why give man a finite understanding?

greenleaflink

God created the laws of nature to give order to His creation. They do not exclude Him form intervening in His creation. In regards to the rest of your post, it appears that you feel that God should have created man as omniscient, on a level as Him. God created us as He, not we chose. He gave us the ability to reason and know Him through His revelation in His creation, in His Word, in Jesus Christ, and in the Holy spirit. He has revealed what we need to know to be reunited with Him, in this world and in eternity, in Christ. He also gave us a free will to accept and act on that revelation or reject it.

What about people who have no idea of the existence of God, Jesus. They live and die, where do they go? When you remove all the poetic language you talk with, it lacks alot of logical evidence.

I will attempt to answer your question.I will begin by making a few general observations.They may or may not apply to you, I don't know, so please don't take them as directed at you.

Nonbelievers, often put forth the question regarding the eternal destiny of one that does not hear the Gospel.My opinion is that often, the motivation for posing this question is a desire to justify their disbelief by somehow painting God as unjust and therefore not worthy of belief and worship.This brings several questions to mind. For example, why would one that does not believe in God be concerned about the eternal destiny of another person that may not believe in God? Or why would they be more concerned about the eternal destiny of another who may have not heard of Christ, but not their own as one who has heard?Or why, if they are so concerned about the eternal destiny of those that have not heard the Gospel, are they sometimes the ones that are often complaining about Christians that are spreading the Gospel? Why are they often admonishing Christians to keep their faith to themselves rather than tell others about Christ? Why, if they are so concerned about the eternal destiny of those that have not heard about Christ, are they not busy spreading the Gospel themselves? When one considers these questions rationally, and in the context of the worldview of the nonbeliever, it becomes difficult to think that, this is truly an obstacle to their believing in God.It is difficult to see it as nothing more than an attempt to justify their disbelief by judging God's ways and plan against their own finite reasoning and understanding to paint Him as unfair and unjust.

The basis of this question is in hypothetical assumptions. One is that we, with our temporal and finite minds, can fully know and understand God's plan for His creation. Another is that our finite understanding and reasoning, exceeds that of an all-powerful, all knowing, loving creator God. Another is that God owes us, His creation, anything more that He has already given us. Another is that we, as the creation, can dictate and question how our creator God interacts with His creation. Another is that God's ways and plan can be inherently unjust. Another is that our all-powerful and all-knowing God is not capable of revealing Himself and imparting knowledge of Himself to a person anywhere in His creation, regardless of the situation.Another is that God created us to meet our demands and insure our pleasure, and not for His pleasure and to glorify Himself. Another is that there exists, anywhere in the world a sinless person that is seeking after God and that God will not reveal himself to that person.Another is that our knowledge and relationship with God depends on others, rather than on ourselves. Finally, one other is that we are justified in living our lives any way we choose, including disbelief, in disobedience to Him, even denying His existence, all the while demanding that God, our creator, meet our expectations and act and do as we demand. These assumptions lead to man's elevation of himself to a position higher that God, our creator, and the Bible reveals that God considers this heresy and idolatry.

Having said that, here are some things to consider. We, with our finite minds and sinful nature, cannot ever fully know all of God's ways or fully understand His plan until the Lord returns. We are not all knowing and therefore cannot fully know how God deals with His creation or the eternal destiny of anyone, other than ourselves, based on how we deal with His revelation and our personal response to it. All we can know is what God has chosen to reveal to us in His many forms of revelation. God has revealed himself to us in His creation, which is general revelation. God has revealed himself to us in His Word, the Bible, which is His written, special revelation. God has revealed Himself to us in Jesus Christ, His living Word, which is special revelation. God has revealed himself in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sin, be sorrowful for our sin against God, to repent and seek God's forgiveness, guide us to the truth, and help us to live more righteous lives in obedience to Him. Evidence of this life changing power can be seen in the changed lives of millions of people that have been lifted out of lives of despair, sin, addiction, perversion, crime, etc., to joyful and righteous lives serving Him.

The Bible tells us that all men are sinners.There is no one that is righteous. We are all sinners, have a sinful nature, and are separated from God..

The Bible tells us that the penalty for sin is death which is eternal separation from God.

The Bible also tells us that God has revealed himself in His creation.This is general revelation.

The Bible tell us that a knowledge of God is written in our hearts.

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in His revelation.

God's revelation of Himself to mankind is progressive in nature. Before His revelation in Christ, the Old Testament saints obtained salvation through their faith in God, based on His revelation to them at that point. God promised that a Messiah, would someday come and they had faith in what God told them.Though they died before the coming of Christ, they were justified by their faith in the promises of God. Hebrews 11 reveals this.

From this we see that faith in the Lord, based on His revelation, determines one's relationship with God and their eternal destiny. While we are not God, and as I mentioned can never hope to fully know or comprehend his plan, I believe that if one seeks God, He will reveal Himself to them. If they have faith, in a creator God, God will reveal Himself to them. He might lead a missionary to them.A friend that has learned of the Gospel may share it with them. The Lord may directly reveal the Gospel to them as He did with Saul, later know as Paul on the road to Damascus. We cannot know for sure How God will reveal Himself to those that don't know Him and how He will ultimately deal with anyone, should they exist, that has not heard the Gospel.We do know that the Lord is faithful in keeping His promises and He has revealed to us in His Word that He will reveal Himself to anyone that diligently seeks Him.I trust that He will be faithful to that promise and that He will be just in insuring that those that seek Him based on His revelation to them, will be dealt with in His perfect justice come judgment day.

The Lord loves us and does not wish that anyone should be separated from Him or perish. He is powerful and loving enough to create us and the entire universe, therefore, He is powerful and loving enough to insure that those that seek Him, find Him.

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lobodob

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#1475 lobodob
Member since 2004 • 2584 Posts
I do not believe that jesus rose from the dead, or that he was the son of god or any of that. But I respect other people's right to believe what they want, and if you believe he rose from the dead you can go ahead and believe that and I won't bother you about it. And just because, here's my favorite quote in regards to religion and humanism. "Faith in God means believing absolutely in something with no proof whatsoever. Faith in humanity means believing absolutely in something with a HUGE amount of proof to the contrary. WE are the true believers."
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Lansdowne5

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#1476 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

[QUOTE="Invertedzero"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

I fixed that post. Just accidentally attributed your quote to me and my quote to you ;).

But, anyway, you missed my point. I argued that there is no reason for God to allow a group of people that is suffering from persecution, to continue suffering. The problem, say, of a dictator systematically murdering a group of people can be solved by moving members of that group (with their permission) to another location. This in no way affects the dictator's free will, since he has not altered the dictator's willingness to inflict harms upon the group.

And, if God exists and thinks that allowing a person to do what he wants by killing thousands of innocents, is more important than preventing the murder of those thousands, then I have absolutely no respect for that God.

blackregiment

hence - heaven and hell... the seperation. The point in living here on this earth is that its an experience, a test to see if we can still believe in God despite everything that's going on and against it. It's to get us to think beyond this world/universe that we live in. When we die it is not the end - we will end up in heaven or hell. and to say these places are imaginary is the same as when people were witchunted etc for saying the earth was round or other similar scientific developments. Until we have this 'scientific knowledge' of a particular thing - it seems stupid to our common sense. To many of us just 50 years ago, or even today, quantum physics seems silly, it doesn't work by our conventional understanding, but its nevertheless real. Before we all die on Earth, im sure there'll be scientific and technological developments that back now we thought may be foolish or impossible. Back to the point, If we suffer here on earth, what's the worst that can happen? death, we die, then if we've lived as christians (this is what i believe), even if not 'good' christians (because to God's eyes we ALL have sinned - going against his will in whatever way at whatever point in life there is), but our hearts are in the right place wanting to follow and beliee in God and continually repent of our sins, then we continue to live in the structure called eternity with God. To us this seems quite abstract asnd we think how can it be measured whether someone is in a state of believing or repentance? but to us as humans before we couldn't figure out what it meant to have the square root of a negative number until someone invented the imaginary/complex numbers as a tool for doing this - then it seems obvious (if you've done maths). Remember that god would be able to measure all these attributes more accurately than we can measure a physical thing like an A4 sheet of paper. Furthermore, God's spritual son Jesus (the mechanics of being a 'son' in the spritiual realm are different to that in the biological/physical), DIED and SUFFERED here on Earth. So what makes us so special that we should be protected from it? JESUS WASN'T WEAK AND FEEBLE, he had the POWER to DESTROY THE EARTH if he so wished, but he suffered all this for us. When we create a computer program, or even when we're playing a simulation game - if something doesn't work properly - we delete it, even with real animals etc, now recognising that God is a superior being to us, why shouldn't he do the same, when seeing that we're not doing things as he wanted after giving us free will? Death is nothing to God, (as can be seen clearly by the ressurections in the Bible) and there are probably worse things that God knows about than death that we don't have a concept of... But as he loved us he went and changed the process so our salvation wsn't depending on OUR ability to follow God's rules, but believing in the death and ressurection of Jesus, and wanting to turn away from sin, hence truly repenting. The only reason we feel it should be based on our actions is because it is something we can measure ourselves, but God can just as easily measure out belief and intentions. after this God may do something different, so long as it doesn't clash with the previous promises made, but anyhow He is God so would be able to make a process that seems impossible to make something possible. Just start believing in things outside of this box that we live in (as physicists have to do), and you'll see that its entirely possible. If something doesn't make sense, don't just go 'pffh' make the effort to find out - there will be many christians that cant give answers themselves, and as humans we will never know everything, just as someone playing a computer game can't see the code behind it unless they use a tool to do so. But there are Christians and resources out there with many if the answers you and I have questions to, its just because some christians only have a basic understanding (i may say even i do), and some people labelled under 'christian' aren't actually very christian when it comes down to it at all, but just use it as a religious label. sorry i meant to quote this

That is well said and well written.

Agreed. There are some good points in there.
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Lansdowne5

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#1480 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

I find it funny that your are a Christian being born into it.

greenleaflink

Becoming a Christian is a personal decision whereby you decide to give your life to, and follow Christ. You repent of your sins and take new life in him. While your parents might 'introduce' you to the Lord, making the 'committment' to actually follow him is another thing entirely.

Had you been born in the Middle East you would be the same with your conviction with Islam.

greenleaflink

Which begs the question, must your parents have been atheists?

I don't believe in a God, I've always asked questions and found no answers...why are there different languages? Tower of BABEL...really the sky is how high?

greenleaflink

Maybe it's because when you've asked the questions, you haven't been listening for the answers? Anyway, it's interesting that you bring up the point of languages. Because, as you probably know, language is a barrier which separates man from animals. No animal is capable of achieving anything like human speech, and all attempts to teach chimpanzees to talk have failed. Evolutionists have no explanation for the origin of human language. It's all good and well to say that the story of Babel is fiction, but do you have a better explanation? The Bible says that the first man, Adam, was created able to speak. The Bible also explains why we have different human languages, as God had to "confuse" the common language being used in Babel after the flood, in order to force people to spread out around the world as He wanted. Now I'm happy with God's explanation, but I'd love to hear your's as well.

The Earth is not a young Earth.

greenleaflink

There is much evidence to suggest that claim is false.

Dinosaurs are real.

greenleaflink

No-one is disputing this. They most certainly did live on the planet at some stage -- the conflict only arises when we try to work out how long ago that was. Blackregiment and I believe it was recently, you obviously believe it was not.

Evolution is where we came from, and that sealed the deal.

greenleaflink

Again, there is much evidence to suggest that claim is false. And I thought evolution was how we got here? Not where we came from?

I believe in facts, reason and science, and no blind faith or false hope makes me a less of person or a morally lacking human.

greenleaflink

Believe me, friend, we are anything 'but' blind. Our eyes have been opened to the Truth. :)

When we die, take our last breath, that is it, there is no spending 80 years on this earth to worry about a eternity in hell or heaven, via Muhammad or Jesus, or any future rapture.

This our only dance and what we do on earth matters, how we take care of it and each other.

greenleaflink

Why does it matter, though? If there is no real meaning to life -- if we are just the pinnacle of billions of years of evolutionary progression -- why does it matter at all?

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Funky_Llama

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#1481 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
Sorry but our family rule is that we do not disclose personal information over the internet.blackregiment
Don't worry. We can all guess.
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Funky_Llama

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#1482 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
You can call it anything you want but nothing is the best description.blackregiment
No it isn't. An infinitely dense point is not by any means 'nothing'. Or is a black hole 'nothing' now?
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chessmaster1989

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#1483 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts

[QUOTE="greenleaflink"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Sorry but our family rule is that we do not disclose personal information over the internet.

blackregiment

Okay don't disclose where you were born. Is your parents Religion a matter of non disclosure as well?

My parents were not Christians but praise God, He used me to help lead them to Christ. They are Christians now.

You just violated your family rule. >.>

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chessmaster1989

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#1484 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

No. Do you believe that everything was created by nothing and that life sprang forth from non-life?

blackregiment

The big bang theory does not state that everything was created from nothing and the theory of evolution doesn't state that life sprang forth from non-life.

The big ban theory speculates that a singularity that occupied no place in space or time, therefore relative to our universe nothing since space and time did not exist, expanded into everything that exists. You can call it anything you want but nothing is the best description.

The theory of evolution conveniently avoids the origin of life because it has no answer how life allegedly sprang forth from non-life in violation of natural laws. The fast of the matter is, no life, not life to evolve.

*sigh* How many times must we go over this?

The singularity nevertheless existed, hence it was something. It is not even fair to call it nothing in our universe since, at the time, our universe did not exist. However, it existed in some capacity, and, therefore, was not nothing.

The Theory of Evolution makes no suppositions about the origins of life. It is equally valid whether organic material formed from inorganic material, or whether organic material was initially created by a creator.

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blackregiment

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#1485 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]You can call it anything you want but nothing is the best description.Funky_Llama
No it isn't. An infinitely dense point is not by any means 'nothing'. Or is a black hole 'nothing' now?

An infinitely dense point, smaller than an atom that occupied no place in space or time is nothing. By the way, let me know when science can come close to "infinitely compressing" a peanut to less than the size of an atom, much less all the components of energy and matter in the universe.:P

Sounds like you believe in miracles.

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Funky_Llama

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#1486 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]You can call it anything you want but nothing is the best description.blackregiment

No it isn't. An infinitely dense point is not by any means 'nothing'. Or is a black hole 'nothing' now?

An infinitely dense point, smaller than an atom that occupied no place in space or time is nothing. By the way, let me know when science can come close to "infinitely compressing" a peanut to less than the size of an atom, much less all the components of energy and matter in the universe.:P

Sounds like you believe in miracles.

Something of infinitesimal size is not zero size. Different things. Also, anything that has an infinite graviational pull must have mass. Now, would you agree with something with mass is not 'nothing'?
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blackregiment

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#1487 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]No it isn't. An infinitely dense point is not by any means 'nothing'. Or is a black hole 'nothing' now?Funky_Llama

An infinitely dense point, smaller than an atom that occupied no place in space or time is nothing. By the way, let me know when science can come close to "infinitely compressing" a peanut to less than the size of an atom, much less all the components of energy and matter in the universe.:P

Sounds like you believe in miracles.

Something of infinitesimal size is not zero size. Different things. Also, anything that has an infinite graviational pull must have mass. Now, would you agree with something with mass is not 'nothing'?

You keep ignoring the part about "and did not occupy a place in space and time." Give me an example of anything that does not occupy a place in space and time and is something relative to our universe.

You also ignored my comment about the peanut.

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CVM_123

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#1488 CVM_123
Member since 2008 • 1265 Posts

i dont really know :?

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Funky_Llama

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#1489 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

An infinitely dense point, smaller than an atom that occupied no place in space or time is nothing. By the way, let me know when science can come close to "infinitely compressing" a peanut to less than the size of an atom, much less all the components of energy and matter in the universe.:P

Sounds like you believe in miracles.

blackregiment

Something of infinitesimal size is not zero size. Different things. Also, anything that has an infinite graviational pull must have mass. Now, would you agree with something with mass is not 'nothing'?

You keep ignoring the part about "and did not occupy a place in space and time." Give me an example of anything that does not occupy a place in space and time and is something relative to our universe.

You also ignored my comment about the peanut.

But it does occupy a point in space and time. And what was your point with the peanut thing, anyway? I ignored it because... well... there didn't seem to be one. Please don't tell me it was 'humans can't create singularities, therefore singularities don't exist', or something.

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Teenaged

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#1490 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]

[QUOTE="Rikardur"]And Frodo managed to stop Sauron (who did exist) by tossing the one ring into Mt. Doom (which he did).

FlyingArmbar


Mount Doom and Frodo do not exist. They were invented in the mind of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Jesus Christ's existenceis confirmed in the Bible, and even in secular historian's writings. He existed, and over five hundred people saw Him after He was resurrected.

BS, Mount Doom and Frodo WERE REAL. So were Gandalf and Saruman.

Their existences were confirmed in the Lord Of The Rings.

I have been waiting for so long for a response like this!

At last I see the good news have been spread!

Namarie! *flees to Lothlorien*

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Dariency

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#1491 Dariency
Member since 2003 • 9464 Posts

The Bible does not contradict itself. A valid contradiction exists only when there is no reasonable explanation for an alleged contradiction. I realize that there are athesit web sites that publish lists of alleged contradictions. They have all been answered, If you research the issue you will find the answers to the llegec contradictions. Let me state in advaqnce, if you now choose to visit these sites, and start poting these alleged contradictions, I am not going to take the time to write out long answers for each one. They have all been answered.

blackregiment

Can you provide a link to where all these alleged contradictions are answered?

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Teenaged

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#1492 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

The Bible does not contradict itself. A valid contradiction exists only when there is no reasonable explanation for an alleged contradiction. I realize that there are athesit web sites that publish lists of alleged contradictions. They have all been answered, If you research the issue you will find the answers to the llegec contradictions. Let me state in advaqnce, if you now choose to visit these sites, and start poting these alleged contradictions, I am not going to take the time to write out long answers for each one. They have all been answered.

blackregiment

Oh no no no! You have said yourself that the Bible does indeed have contradictions but when we find one we choose to judge by the whole gospel and to ommit the information that is not in harmony with the entirety of the message of the Bible (and herein lies the danger of what message one receives and to what message one wants to conform information he cannot accept).

Thus when we find a contradiction then we choose to "heal" it, not by being skeptical but by subduing all information to the presuppostitions we have and the already formed ideas in our minds. Does this sound like a safe and reliable course of thinking to you?

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BumFluff122

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#1493 BumFluff122
Member since 2004 • 14853 Posts

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]You can call it anything you want but nothing is the best description.blackregiment

No it isn't. An infinitely dense point is not by any means 'nothing'. Or is a black hole 'nothing' now?

An infinitely dense point, smaller than an atom that occupied no place in space or time is nothing. By the way, let me know when science can come close to "infinitely compressing" a peanut to less than the size of an atom, much less all the components of energy and matter in the universe.:P

Sounds like you believe in miracles.

IF it is nothing how can it be infinitely dense?

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milosbeli

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#1494 milosbeli
Member since 2007 • 1045 Posts

ofcourse not

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blackregiment

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#1495 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Something of infinitesimal size is not zero size. Different things. Also, anything that has an infinite graviational pull must have mass. Now, would you agree with something with mass is not 'nothing'?Funky_Llama

You keep ignoring the part about "and did not occupy a place in space and time." Give me an example of anything that does not occupy a place in space and time and is something relative to our universe.

You also ignored my comment about the peanut.

But it does occupy a point in space and time. And what was your point with the peanut thing, anyway? I ignored it because... well... there didn't seem to be one. Please don't tell me it was 'humans can't create singularities, therefore singularities don't exist', or something.

No it doesn't. Space and time are alleged to not have existed before the singularity event. Actually, it is thought that space and time were "inside" of the alleged singularity and expanded with it.

Read the peanut comment again and you will see what I meant regarding the compression of energy and the componets of matter.

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blackregiment

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#1496 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]No it isn't. An infinitely dense point is not by any means 'nothing'. Or is a black hole 'nothing' now?BumFluff122

An infinitely dense point, smaller than an atom that occupied no place in space or time is nothing. By the way, let me know when science can come close to "infinitely compressing" a peanut to less than the size of an atom, much less all the components of energy and matter in the universe.:P

Sounds like you believe in miracles.

IF it is nothing how can it be infinitely dense?

It can't and wasn't. If it did not occupy a place in space and time how can it be something relative to our universe? It can't.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#1497 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Just because finite man's understanding of the power of our supernatural God leads them to consider events such as miracles "improbable and incredibly irrational" does not make it so. God is supernatural. He exists outside of our natural world. He is not limited by the laws of the natural world.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

blackregiment

Why would God create the laws of the natural world in the first place if he knew he would constantly break them whenever he pleases? God created man with a finite understanding of the power of God, so to man he appears to be endorsing irrational thought and behavior. Now God would obviously know that his acts would appear irrational and improbable to man with a finite understanding, so why give man a finite understanding?

God created the laws of nature to give order to His creation. They do not exclude Him form intervening in His creation. In regards to the rest of your post, it appears that you feel that God should have created man as omniscient, on a level as Him. God created us as He, not we chose. He gave us the ability to reason and know Him through His revelation in His creation, in His Word, in Jesus Christ, and in the Holy spirit. He has revealed what we need to know to be reunited with Him, in this world and in eternity, in Christ. He also gave us a free will to accept and act on that revelation or reject it.

He gave us the ability to reason but he presents himself to man, finite understanding and all, as an unreasonable and irrational entity. Why would he present himself to us in such a way? Why would he endorse such unreasonable thought and behavior concerning his existence, yet punish all other unreasonable thought and behavior anywhere else in the natural world that he created?

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blackregiment

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#1498 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

The Bible does not contradict itself. A valid contradiction exists only when there is no reasonable explanation for an alleged contradiction. I realize that there are athesit web sites that publish lists of alleged contradictions. They have all been answered, If you research the issue you will find the answers to the llegec contradictions. Let me state in advaqnce, if you now choose to visit these sites, and start poting these alleged contradictions, I am not going to take the time to write out long answers for each one. They have all been answered.

Teenaged

Oh no no no! You have said yourself that the Bible does indeed have contradictions...

That is a false statement. I have not stated that the Bible has actual contradictions, I have said that it is alleged that there are contradiction in the Bible.

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chessmaster1989

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#1499 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]You can call it anything you want but nothing is the best description.blackregiment

No it isn't. An infinitely dense point is not by any means 'nothing'. Or is a black hole 'nothing' now?

An infinitely dense point, smaller than an atom that occupied no place in space or time is nothing. By the way, let me know when science can come close to "infinitely compressing" a peanut to less than the size of an atom, much less all the components of energy and matter in the universe.:P

Sounds like you believe in miracles.

By the way, let me know the next time God decides to resurrect someone. :P

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#1500 blackregiment
Member since 2007 • 11937 Posts

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Why would God create the laws of the natural world in the first place if he knew he would constantly break them whenever he pleases? God created man with a finite understanding of the power of God, so to man he appears to be endorsing irrational thought and behavior. Now God would obviously know that his acts would appear irrational and improbable to man with a finite understanding, so why give man a finite understanding?

-Sun_Tzu-

God created the laws of nature to give order to His creation. They do not exclude Him form intervening in His creation. In regards to the rest of your post, it appears that you feel that God should have created man as omniscient, on a level as Him. God created us as He, not we chose. He gave us the ability to reason and know Him through His revelation in His creation, in His Word, in Jesus Christ, and in the Holy spirit. He has revealed what we need to know to be reunited with Him, in this world and in eternity, in Christ. He also gave us a free will to accept and act on that revelation or reject it.

He gave us the ability to reason but he presents himself to man, finite understanding and all, as an unreasonable and irrational entity.

No, that is how you describe a god based on your understanding and worldview. That is not the God revealed in the Bible.