Abortion ****

[QUOTE="lettuceman44"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="lettuceman44"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Stumpt25"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]TC, are you complaining about late abortion or all abortion? It's not clear, and you only really give an argument against late abortion.Funky_Llama

I am against both. But there are a lot of people who say "it's not REALLY killing a BABY, cause it's only a bunch of Cells. Quite clearly, this isn't true.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]TC, are you complaining about late abortion or all abortion? It's not clear, and you only really give an argument against late abortion.Stumpt25

I am against both. But there are a lot of people who say "it's not REALLY killing a BABY, cause it's only a bunch of Cells. Quite clearly, this isn't true.

Why isn't it true?

I can kill you right now, and say "oh, it is only a bunch of cells", and it would be true.

but a person can feel pain not all featuses can

You never gave it a chance to feel pain, nor the joys of life.

That would apply to sperm cells too, which would make sex mass murder.

[QUOTE="lettuceman44"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="lettuceman44"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Stumpt25"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]TC, are you complaining about late abortion or all abortion? It's not clear, and you only really give an argument against late abortion.Funky_Llama

I am against both. But there are a lot of people who say "it's not REALLY killing a BABY, cause it's only a bunch of Cells. Quite clearly, this isn't true.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]TC, are you complaining about late abortion or all abortion? It's not clear, and you only really give an argument against late abortion.Stumpt25

I am against both. But there are a lot of people who say "it's not REALLY killing a BABY, cause it's only a bunch of Cells. Quite clearly, this isn't true.

Why isn't it true?

I can kill you right now, and say "oh, it is only a bunch of cells", and it would be true.

but a person can feel pain not all featuses can

You never gave it a chance to feel pain, nor the joys of life.

That would apply to sperm cells too, which would make sex mass murder.

Not to mention masturbation

[QUOTE="legend26"]

i find it funny how people go crazy about abortion, but when a baby is actually born they stop careing and forget about it, almost as if "well there goes another one, lets move on to the next one"

besides the world is allready overpopulated enough, so if a woman desides to get an abortion well yeah its sad but hey, thats one less human to consume the world.

*puts on flame shield*

lettuceman44

Disgusting.

i watched it....diddnt really effect me, sorry, look at a dead chickan fetus and they look pretty much alike, ive probably been so "desensitized" :roll: by all the violence in the media. look at pics of dead soldiers, hundreds of them die everyday andyet little people take as much time to recognize it as much as a dead fetus...

Yea, your so funny....lettuceman44

I wasn't trying to be. It's a reductio ad absurdum.

Not to mention masturbation

Vfanek

Yes, that too.

[QUOTE="lettuceman44"][QUOTE="legend26"]

i find it funny how people go crazy about abortion, but when a baby is actually born they stop careing and forget about it, almost as if "well there goes another one, lets move on to the next one"

besides the world is allready overpopulated enough, so if a woman desides to get an abortion well yeah its sad but hey, thats one less human to consume the world.

*puts on flame shield*

legend26

Disgusting.

i watched it....diddnt really effect me, sorry, look at a dead chickan fetus and they look pretty much alike, ive probably been so "desensitized" :roll: by all the violence in the media. look at pics of dead soldiers, hundreds of them die everyday andyet little people take as much time to recognize it as much as a dead fetus...

Soldiers knew what they were up for when they signed up for the army. I am not saying we shouldn't mourn soldiers, I am just saying there's a difference here.

[QUOTE="lettuceman44"]Yea, your so funny....Funky_Llama

I wasn't trying to be. It's a reductio ad absurdum.

Wow, Funky_Llama. This time you've gone too far, pal.

It's not the same a spermatozoid (just a living cell, nothing more) than a human life in formation.

[QUOTE="lettuceman44"]Yea, your so funny....Funky_Llama

I wasn't trying to be. It's a reductio ad absurdum.

dosn't the sperm give its genetic matierial to the egg though? Then the egg multiplies..... if anything we should mourn periods

I agree to an extent, in the fact that I think it's wrong for people who casually have sex and will abort a child so they can carry on thier immature, unresponsible and selfish lifestyles. That I am opposed to. However, if you aren't able to support or give a baby a good life, or you're at a time in your life where it just wouldn't be possible for you, then i have no opposition to abortion. You have to try and be a bit understanding and compassionate with people. Me and my girlfriend are having bit of a pregnancy scare at the moment. I'll be the first to admit that we are responsible as we rather foolishly didn't use protection, thinking she was on the pill when she had come off to go on something else. Neither of us are blaming eachother, and we have both already spoken about it. As stated here, I told her my views on abortion and she told me mine, and i supported her in her decision. We're both 17, she is studying at college and wants to go on to be a firefighter. A baby is not what she, nor I, want right now in our lives and due to us making the decision, its our right to put that decision into action. I don't think anyone should have the right to make abortion illegal or tell others what to do with their lives (not saying anyone here has done that), because everybody's situation is different; everybody's lives and opinions are different. That's why i think it's good people have the choice, people who believe its wrong don't have to have them and people who are ok with it can, safely. It's better having legal abortions with anaesthetics and proper procedures than using a coat hanger on your self.

anyway...

[QUOTE="legend26"][QUOTE="lettuceman44"][QUOTE="legend26"]

i find it funny how people go crazy about abortion, but when a baby is actually born they stop careing and forget about it, almost as if "well there goes another one, lets move on to the next one"

besides the world is allready overpopulated enough, so if a woman desides to get an abortion well yeah its sad but hey, thats one less human to consume the world.

*puts on flame shield*

Vfanek

Disgusting.

i watched it....diddnt really effect me, sorry, look at a dead chickan fetus and they look pretty much alike, ive probably been so "desensitized" :roll: by all the violence in the media. look at pics of dead soldiers, hundreds of them die everyday andyet little people take as much time to recognize it as much as a dead fetus...

Soldiers knew what they were up for when they signed up for the army. I am not saying we shouldn't mourn soldiers, I am just saying there's a difference here.

If you don't use protection, i'm sorry, i don't care about your "rights". The only time when i think abortion is good is when a woman is raped. She couldn't help getting pregnant and she has to live with the constant reminder of what happened to her.

Stumpt25

Those two statements contradict each other. We're off to a great start! :D

Think about it this way. A baby can be aborted at 24 weeks old. BABIES CAN BE BORN AND SURVIVE AT 24 WEEKS. Let's say a woman, prematurely gives birth to a baby at 24 weeks, and then murders it on the same day. That woman would be ARRESTED. It makes no difference, however, if she coulda just killed it by aborting it.

Stumpt25

Except they don't allow late term abortions in most states.

Then people commonly approach my views with the whole: "What if the baby is deformed, or is going to be born very ill?". Abortion isn't the answer though! You can't just say "that baby is DEFINATELY not going to enjoy life". How do you know? you aren't giving it a chance. Doesn't it deserve to do all the little things that we take for granted, like seeing the colours of the sky, or listening to it's favourite song, or falling in love or thinking about something?

Stumpt25

Not if it can't appreciate those things, or be capable of apprecating those things in the first place.

Let me ask YOU something. Do you know how many women die through unsafe abortions each year? 68,000. That's a disgrace. Not only might the baby die, but the women will too.

Stumpt25

Let me as you something. Where do you get your sources? Because that is a BS statistic, since people don't disclose their criminal acts so easily. :|

Michael Jay Tucker once said:

"If the anti-abortion movement took a tenth of the energy they put into noisy theatrics and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence, and neglect, they could make a world shine."

I would respond to this by saying that if liberals took a tenth of the energy they put into trying to save violent criminals from facing death row, and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence and neglect, they could make the world shine.

Stumpt25

And if we all stopped posting, we could instead be doing something else! What an incredibly worthless point and disgraceful jab at his opponents. He seems like a swell guy. :D

What are your thoughts on abortion? do you agree with anything i'm saying?

Stumpt25

I'll let you figure that one out. :)

I'm adopted, so there is no way I could ever be for abortions.

Now I'm about to post a video, and it is graphic. It shows actual video of aborted babies. Now you can say I'm just trying to play to people's emotions, but I'm just giving you the TRUTH.

Now I'm being serious, if you have a squeamish stomach, do NOT watch the video. But hey, the people for abortions should be able to watch it easily because it is just a bunch of cells anyway. LINK

I think Mother Teresa said it best.

"It's a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."

peaceful_anger

Ah yes, shock tactics and one liners.

More rights vs. Less rights. More rights wins.supercubedude64

But the question is... who or what has the most rights?

You are contradicting yourself TC. On one had you say abortion is horrible and "What about the baby? Doesn't it deserve the right to enjoy the things we take for granted?", but then on the other hand you are fine with a woman who has been raped aborting the fetus. So in this instance, you are siding with the woman's civil rights and not with the fetus. How do you explain that? In your eyes isn't a unborn fetus as innocent as any other unborn fetus? The only difference is the circumstances of it's conception?There are a lot of people like you that claim to be pro-life, if you are, then pick a side. You can't have it both ways, either you are pro-life or you aren't.

I personally am pro-choice. I am for a woman's right to choose to have an abortion or not to have an abortion. A fetus to me isn't a human life, it's just a clump of under-developed human cells with the potential to become a human being.

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"]

If you don't use protection, i'm sorry, i don't care about your "rights". The only time when i think abortion is good is when a woman is raped. She couldn't help getting pregnant and she has to live with the constant reminder of what happened to her.

The_Ish

Those two statements contradict each other. We're off to a great start! :D

Think about it this way. A baby can be aborted at 24 weeks old. BABIES CAN BE BORN AND SURVIVE AT 24 WEEKS. Let's say a woman, prematurely gives birth to a baby at 24 weeks, and then murders it on the same day. That woman would be ARRESTED. It makes no difference, however, if she coulda just killed it by aborting it.

Stumpt25

Except they don't allow late term abortions in most states.

Then people commonly approach my views with the whole: "What if the baby is deformed, or is going to be born very ill?". Abortion isn't the answer though! You can't just say "that baby is DEFINATELY not going to enjoy life". How do you know? you aren't giving it a chance. Doesn't it deserve to do all the little things that we take for granted, like seeing the colours of the sky, or listening to it's favourite song, or falling in love or thinking about something?

Stumpt25

Not if it can't appreciate those things, or be capable of apprecating those things in the first place.

Let me ask YOU something. Do you know how many women die through unsafe abortions each year? 68,000. That's a disgrace. Not only might the baby die, but the women will too.

Stumpt25

Let me as you something. Where do you get your sources? Because that is a BS statistic, since people don't disclose their criminal acts so easily. :|

Michael Jay Tucker once said:

"If the anti-abortion movement took a tenth of the energy they put into noisy theatrics and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence, and neglect, they could make a world shine."

I would respond to this by saying that if liberals took a tenth of the energy they put into trying to save violent criminals from facing death row, and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence and neglect, they could make the world shine.

Stumpt25

And if we all stopped posting, we could instead be doing something else! What an incredibly worthless point and disgraceful jab at his opponents. He seems like a swell guy. :D

What are your thoughts on abortion? do you agree with anything i'm saying?

Stumpt25

I'll let you figure that one out. :)

Ugh, i hate ignorance. If you are going to debate me, fine, but don't use lame ass tactics in order to do so.

1. When a woman get's raped. She is entering sexual intercourse TOTALLY unvolentarily. If she doesn't use protection in consentual sex, then it's totally her fault if she gets pregnant. I didn't contradict myself.

2. the "states" isn't the whole world. In the UK and many other european countries, 24 weeks is right.

3. How can YOU decide that they won't appreciate the simple things in life? Furthermore, where the heck do you draw the line. "hmmm his arm hasn't fully developed but the rest of his body is normal...". It's so unfair, and it totally demeans the people who ARE disabled but still lead fulfilling lives.

4. This is a double edged sword. Where do YOU get your sources. Regardless whether either of us are right, MANY WOMEN die each year through unsafe abortion.

5. Your last comment is a total contradiction (which is ironic because you accused me of contradictory). "Go do something else. but that guy who made the statement is awesome."

I think that for a man to tell a woman that she is obligated to bear and raise a child because he deems her behavior "slutty" is pretty remarkable.xaos

whoah! putting words in my mouth. I never called anyone "slutty". I am merely saying that if a woman engages in sex without any protection, she should be ready to accept the consequences.

Stumpt25

Dude I agree with everything you said. Abortion is one of the most stupidest things to have happened to this planet. We should all work together to make a better world for each other.

[QUOTE="xaos"]I think that for a man to tell a woman that she is obligated to bear and raise a child because he deems her behavior "slutty" is pretty remarkable.Stumpt25

whoah! putting words in my mouth. I never called anyone "slutty". I am merely saying that if a woman engages in sex without any protection, she should be ready to accept the consequences.

When the situation arrives, it is rarely as black & white as you think it to be.

I am kinda on the fence here. As much as I think it is wrong that abortions are performed, I think they should definitely be allowed for women who have been raped and when the birth poses health risks to the mother. Also, being realistic here, it is better to have the women who get pregnant for stupid reasons going into clinics and getting a cleaner abortion than having them sitting on their kitchen counter with a coat hanger.

Morally, I am opposed to and would never encourage an abortion except for in special cases, but realistically, having clinics is better than not.

[QUOTE="legend26"]

i find it funny how people go crazy about abortion, but when a baby is actually born they stop careing and forget about it, almost as if "well there goes another one, lets move on to the next one"

besides the world is allready overpopulated enough, so if a woman desides to get an abortion well yeah its sad but hey, thats one less human to consume the world.

*puts on flame shield*

lettuceman44

Disgusting.

Most videos like that are terribly over-exaggerated and I still stand for pro-choice. I'd never abort after a certain amount of weeks though, it's too much like a baby then.

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"]

totalmachine

Dude I agree with everything you said. Abortion is one of the most stupidest things to have happened to this planet. We should all work together to make a better world for each other.

Oh yeh that sounds great - a world where women are told what they can and can't do with their own bodies. A world where an unborn fetus has rights over a fully grown woman. Sounds fantastic :roll:

However much I dislike the idea of killing a baby/fetus whatever, I think it's the woman's choice about what she wants to do.

[QUOTE="totalmachine"]

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"]

tofu-lion91

Dude I agree with everything you said. Abortion is one of the most stupidest things to have happened to this planet. We should all work together to make a better world for each other.

Oh yeh that sounds great - a world where women are told what they can and can't do with their own bodies. A world where an unborn fetus has rights over a fully grown woman. Sounds fantastic :roll:

However much I dislike the idea of killing a baby/fetus whatever, I think it's the woman's choice about what she wants to do.

To me, if the child has never seen the light of day, then it doesn't really matter, If you don't want a child than, you shouldn't have to have it, the world is already way too populated, if you want to be a parent than just adopt, I hear that they have Eastern Europeans and West-Africans on sale in the back aisle!MGSFan92

those are the top 2 reasons why i support abortion

you ever notice how some people who are anti-abortion dont even consider adoption of an african baby?

@ tofulion, as george carlin once said "pro-life is anti women"

I am kinda on the fence here. As much as I think it is wrong that abortions are performed, I think they should definitely be allowed for women who have been raped and when the birth poses health risks to the mother. Also, being realistic here, it is better to have the women who get pregnant for stupid reasons going into clinics and getting a cleaner abortion than having them sitting on their kitchen counter with a coat hanger.

Morally, I am opposed to and would never encourage an abortion except for in special cases, but realistically, having clinics is better than not.

Thyeora

Thats how I feel too. I'm glad theres someone else on the fence about this.

I will ask people, out of interest, if a woman is pregnant and is shot and killed, and her baby dies as well, should it be a double homicide?

Now you can say I'm just trying to play to people's emotions, but I'm just giving you the TRUTH. peaceful_anger

It IS an appeal to emotion. It's an appeal to disgust. It's no different than what animal rights activists post about slaughterhouses. You are simply trying to convince people by grossing them out. >_>

[QUOTE="peaceful_anger"]Now you can say I'm just trying to play to people's emotions, but I'm just giving you the TRUTH. PannicAtack

It IS an appeal to emotion. It's an appeal to disgust. It's no different than what animal rights activists post about slaughterhouses. You are simply trying to convince people by grossing them out. >_>

this^

If you don't use protection, i'm sorry, i don't care about your "rights". The only time when i think abortion is good is when a woman is raped. She couldn't help getting pregnant and she has to live with the constant reminder of what happened to her.

Think about it this way. A baby can be aborted at 24 weeks old. BABIES CAN BE BORN AND SURVIVE AT 24 WEEKS. Let's say a woman, prematurely gives birth to a baby at 24 weeks, and then murders it on the same day. That woman would be ARRESTED. It makes no difference, however, if she coulda just killed it by aborting it.

Stumpt25

Way to leave yourself an out in case you ever accidentally "boot one through the uprights"

Abortion is unjust, and should only be allowed when the life of the mother is at stake. No man, no court with the title of "supreme" can restrict human life to "when you look like this." It's inhuman. Partial birth abortions are infanticide and the parties involved should be tried with murder.

Take the money we dump into abortion clinics and put it into orphanages and adoption centers.

[QUOTE="Thyeora"]

I am kinda on the fence here. As much as I think it is wrong that abortions are performed, I think they should definitely be allowed for women who have been raped and when the birth poses health risks to the mother. Also, being realistic here, it is better to have the women who get pregnant for stupid reasons going into clinics and getting a cleaner abortion than having them sitting on their kitchen counter with a coat hanger.

Morally, I am opposed to and would never encourage an abortion except for in special cases, but realistically, having clinics is better than not.

InterpolWilco

Thats how I feel too. I'm glad theres someone else on the fence about this.

I will ask people, out of interest, if a woman is pregnant and is shot and killed, and her baby dies as well, should it be a double homicide?

It already is. And yes, that's how it should be.

Abortion is unjust, and should only be allowed when the life of the mother is at stake. No man, no court with the title of "supreme" can restrict human life to "when you look like this." It's inhuman. Partial birth abortions are infanticide and the parties involved should be tried with murder.

Take the money we dump into abortion clinics and put it into orphanages and adoption centers.

Theokhoth

What about when the mother has been raped, or the baby is likely to have some debilitating problem?

I don't see anything wrong with abortion.Kuhu

Yeah, this world is overpopulated enough and there are so many ways that an unexpected pregnancy can happen. Rape, Broken condom, forgetting a condom,etc. Also what if the mother is poor, ill,can't take care of the child for some reason, orthe baby will have serious incorrectable birth defects. Don't get me wrong, I'm completely against late abortions because then you are actually killing something that might have feelings but until then it is a bunch of stem cells which can go to a very important research that could save and improve millions of lives if you do happen to choose abortion.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Abortion is unjust, and should only be allowed when the life of the mother is at stake. No man, no court with the title of "supreme" can restrict human life to "when you look like this." It's inhuman. Partial birth abortions are infanticide and the parties involved should be tried with murder.

Take the money we dump into abortion clinics and put it into orphanages and adoption centers.

Funky_Llama

What about when the mother has been raped, or the baby is likely to have some debilitating problem?

When the mother has been raped: Adoption. It is vicious to punish a baby for the crimes of a rapist.

If the baby will have some disease: It can't be known before the baby is born that it will have a debilitating problem, at least not for certain. Killing for the "just in case" factor doesn't sound very reasonable to me.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="lettuceman44"]Yea, your so funny....eloyc

I wasn't trying to be. It's a reductio ad absurdum.

Wow, Funky_Llama. This time you've gone too far, pal.

It's not the same a spermatozoid (just a living cell, nothing more) than a human life in formation.

Not for an early-stage embryo. A sperm cell is a potential human life, just as an embryo is.

Not for an early-stage embryo. A sperm cell is a potential human life, just as an embryo is.

Funky_Llama

An embryo is a mixture of a sperm cell and an egg cell, making it a completely separate creature from the sperm cell. Your argument is a strawman.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Abortion is unjust, and should only be allowed when the life of the mother is at stake. No man, no court with the title of "supreme" can restrict human life to "when you look like this." It's inhuman. Partial birth abortions are infanticide and the parties involved should be tried with murder.

Take the money we dump into abortion clinics and put it into orphanages and adoption centers.

Theokhoth

What about when the mother has been raped, or the baby is likely to have some debilitating problem?

When the mother has been raped: Adoption. It is vicious to punish a baby for the crimes of a rapist.

If the baby will have some disease: It can't be known before the baby is born that it will have a debilitating problem, at least not for certain. Killing for the "just in case" factor doesn't sound very reasonable to me.

Abortion isn't the punishment of a baby. :|

There are instances when it can be known before the baby is born whether is will have a debilitating problem.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Not for an early-stage embryo. A sperm cell is a potential human life, just as an embryo is.

Theokhoth

An embryo is a mixture of a sperm cell and an egg cell, making it a completely separate creature from the sperm cell. Your argument is a strawman.

Completely different =/= greater right to life.

Abortion isn't the punishment of a baby. :|

There are instances when it can be known before the baby is born whether is will have a debilitating problem.

Funky_Llama

Oh, so what do you call beheading an unborn fetus, then? A reward? Or how about drowning it in salt water? Or how about scrambling it up with a metal rod and sucking out the remains through a vacuum? The baby dies: it's a punishment for existing.

Not for certain. Unless you have examples. Even if it will have a problem, it should still be allowed to live; people with problems live and prosper all the time. A man with no legs ran in the olympics, a girl with no eyes can see with her tongue, hell, a girl in India was born with eight limbs!

Completely different =/= greater right to life.

Funky_Llama

Yeah, it kinda does. An embryo grows into a baby; a lone sperm cell does not.

[QUOTE="Kuhu"]I don't see anything wrong with abortion.Jigsaw9798

Yeah, this world is overpopulated enough and there are so many ways that an unexpected pregnancy can happen. Rape, Broken condom, forgetting a condom,etc. Also what if the mother is poor, ill,can't take care of the child for some reason, orthe baby will have serious incorrectable birth defects. Don't get me wrong, I'm completely against late abortions because then you are actually killing something that might have feelings but until then it is a bunch of stem cells which can go to a very important research that could save and improve millions of lives if you do happen to choose abortion.

If my mother got raped, and I was the outcome; Or if I was some mistake, I would rather be aborted then live my life with such a label.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Abortion isn't the punishment of a baby. :|

There are instances when it can be known before the baby is born whether is will have a debilitating problem.

Theokhoth

Oh, so what do you call beheading an unborn fetus, then? A reward? Or how about drowning it in salt water? Or how about scrambling it up with a metal rod and sucking out the remains through a vaccuum? The baby dies: it's a punishment for existing.

Not for certain. Unless you have examples. Even if it will have a problem, it should still be allowed to live; people with problems live and prosper all the time. A man with no legs ran in the olympics, a girl with no eyes can see with her tongue, hell, a girl in India was born with eight limbs!

Death =/= punishment. And I hardly see how you can feel any sense of injustice over an unconcious, unthinking cluster of cells incapable of feeling pain.

Unless you were referring to late-stage abortions in which case I agree with you. :P

Foetuses can be confirmed to have these problems while still in the womb.