Zelda combat system is very 1998. Will it finally improve by 2030?

With fromsoft bangers, Dragon's Dogma II, Ragnarok and the MH series, its pretty clear that a good combat system doesn't need 60sec air juggles and a sheet of 50 combos. Zelda's combat system was excellent for its time (from the release of link to the past until about twilight princess), but as we've seen in totk, its incredibly mobile-like experience for today standards. Its simple to the point of me thinking that its primary focus is 5-13 year olds. Does Nintendo has a skill set needed to improve its mobile combat system, or will it be considered as a simpleton system forever?

Due to player expression. TOTK combat can be quite fun when you play with the game's mechanics. The basic swordfighting is really basic, but the interactions from the tools can make it fun when played at a high level.

Then again, you are making a thread about a game you havent even played. Which is just sad.

Games are more about dungeons and puzzles than combat

There's nothing wrong with old or simple combat styles.

I like Callisto Protocol.

BOTW should have ripped off DMC.

Guarantee you the game would be 10 times better.

That is what it used to be. Now its just an open world sandbox like the other 292983 open world games.

Disgusting take.

Nothing wrong with simple gameplay provided it's done well. That's the catch: it has to be done well. Like a nice vanilla ice cream.

Old chef saying is "the quality of the cook is determined by the quality of their simplest dish". It's why the test of a good chef is often for them to make a plain three-egg omelet.

Do you consider it as well done in the last few zelda games?

No because Nintendo already said BOTW and TOTK are the format moving forward. So the core combat will stay dumbed down in favor of wacky shenanigans with whatever the new game's exploration and sandbox gimmicks are.

Lol at comparing God Of Wars shitty Ryse Son Of Rome combat to TOTKs

I really enjoy the combat and gameplay in the Zelda games myself. 🤷‍♂️

@sargentd: @Archangel3371: <- These guys get it.

Zelda's combat is simple but fun. It wouldn't carry a combat focused game, but Zelda has a lot of other things going on; dungeons, puzzles, exploration, and messing around with all the stuff you can build.

It's like complaining about the combat in Minecraft. Yeah, you'll find better elsewhere, but if that's your main focus, you're kinda missing the point of the game.

Nice joke. Your combat system in Zelda is equal to phone games such as Genshin Impact lmao. GoW combat shits all over Zelda's combat, and any other melee based combat systems Nintendo has ever made.

I'm disappointed. When I took a dump on Arkham's combat system in my thread, I went into exhaustive detail, but this reads like someone who doesn't know Zelda. Where is the substance of your criticism?

Bro said Zelda total control combat is no good then named the games that copy Zelda’s total control combat. Talk about a failed thread.

And replaces Z-targeting with shit button R3.

Nintendo has been doing proper analog control since Mario 64. Meanwhile, FromSoftware still can't figure out more than two degrees of movement, walk and run. They can't get up to 1996, lol.

There's a reason why the whole industry is copying fromsoft, and nobody even looks at zelda systems.

Ocarina of Time was the foundation for modern 3D melee combat though. Others have since improved on it in various ways, but Zelda was the foundation that they built on.

Sure, but that doesn't explain the fact that over 20 years later, Nintendo has barely done anything to it while everyone around them surpassed them by so much, its ridiculous to even compare elden ring's combat system to totk's. The combat system in zelda is like their online infrastructure... still in late 90's to early 2000's.

@hardwenzen: Link can run backwards and sideways without a target while FromSoftware's protagonists can't. They haven't surpassed anything and are limited in other ways because they make combat-heavy RPGs, which have to specialize. So no room for other features, like climbing and environmental manipulation. RPG is basically shittier action-adventure, if action-adventure reached its potential. They can't balance multiple aspects well like action-adventure because the players would complain about having to learn the complex environmental navigation, puzzles, etc. on top of the try-hard combat.

And what does running backwards or sideways do to the actual gameplay? Nothing. Nothing but looking goofy af. That's why its not in fromsoft titles, nor is it in most games in general, its stupid, and nobody wants to see it.

Climbing is a chore for asscreed lovers, so again, its not in fromsoft titles, and they better never bring that waste of time feature to their games.

Environmental manipulation is fine, but all you're manipulating in zelda is rocks. Not very creative if you ask me.

And puzzles in the newer zeldas (botw and totk) are beyond repetitive, so while i do enjoy puzzles in rpgs, if they were on par with totk, no thanks, i don't want to see em.

If you're going to do lock-on in an exploration game, then you might as well put in lockless strafing and retreating as well, for when you need to see where you are going as you ward off the danger coming from another direction. It's a free function. But you can't do that with the R3 shit button.

Not just talking about Zelda; I am asking you to use your imagination. Think of the best combination of environmental navigation and action that could be designed. Can't do that in an action-RPG because it has to specialize, use up almost all buttons for combat. I find it rather monotonous after five Souls games. Only combat, combat, combat.

If From Software was a real man, Hardwenzen would **** it.

Lock on in souls titles is mostly used against bosses or single enemies. What is the point of a strafe, when a dodge to the sides is faster and you cover more distance? Yea, you didn't think that one through. Being able to run backwards and sideways is what we used to have in old ass titles with poor N64 controls. Games in the 21st century aren't using this, its pointless.

And i am not against an addition of difficult/interesting puzzles and environmental navigation in souls games, but when they're already delivering the best possible level design in the whole industry, while also offer the best art/easthetic, i mean, you can't really ask much more. But sure, puzzles in a exploration based title is perfectly fitting, so if they begin by introducing them (and i am not talking about the trash that's in ER. That's nowhere near good enough), it would only make their games more interesting.

Without a shadow of a doubt.

Dodge is limited by stamina, while lockless strafing is a free function when mapped to the correct button. Looks stupid too, dodging non-stop because you can't keep your guard up. The hold feels better than the toggle too. Ocarina and its sequels had a toggle option for Z-targeting, and it always felt gross, always made you feel more locked down.

FromSoftware's level design is good for an RPG. RPGs are inferior by nature. They can't do anything really cool with the levels because the controls are almost totally built around combat and item management/consumables. They didn't have a proper jump until Sekiro because of it. That double-tap Circle/B felt awful. The best you got before in terms of verticality was dropping down from a higher platform. Now they do have a proper jump but switching from single to dual wield or power stance/whatever is more complicated because of it, needing two buttons.

It doesn't matter because you are not permanently strafing. The game is about learning boss move sets, and iframe dodging them, not running in circles like zelda because there isn't much going on during combat.

If their level design is only good for rpg standards, i want you to name non rpg's with better level design than what's in something like Dark Souls 1 or Bloodoborne. Go on, and try to name a few recent titles, not something that came out three decades ago just cuz you had trouble finding something recent.

That's a loaded ask. We all know how much the cinematic adventure with the forced walking and canned animations of squeezing between walls and such has infested the industry and how much the open worlds where the same care is not taken in each space have taken over. Point is that action-adventure can do better level design because of the balance of mechanics.

It is what it is, Fromsoft level design is 10/10, and has been 10/10 since the original Demon's Souls.

Nintendo leading the industry as always. One day these devs will innovate instead of just coping Nintendo.

The guy hasn't played TOTK. Hence the lack of substance in his thread.

He complains about games he hasn't played all the time. Most notably his baseless hate on Halo Infinite and Starfield.

I played botw🤡Combat system is 98.872% the same because Nintendo doesn't have the skillset needed to evolve it. But good try, sticking to "haven't played it" is a decent way of coping with the combat system being inferior to most action titles.

The latest two Zeldas have very basic combat. I think it's because they had many different weapons that basically acted as different attacks, coupled with using the abilities in combat. The overall package made it have fun, albeit simple combat.

While I don't think advanced combat is of great importance in a Zelda, some more depth would be nice for the next one. It was great in Wind Waker.. And instead of throwing a million weapons in my face, I think I'd prefer something like Skyward Sword, where you have some equipment to choose from, and you can upgrade them (basically the only thing I like from that game).

Speaking of FromSoftware, I really hope they improve their combat as well. It's starting to get old. Playing Nioh 2 right now where you have many different weapons, while all of them have many different attacks, and three different stances for all weapons, all coming with different attacks. It's awesome. Then you get back into a Souls game, and it just feels like slice, slice, dodge on infinite repeat.

Other than the basic attacks, your entire toolkit is different... try actually playing games before criticizing them.

Beats the combat of Bo Ring. But I digress. Having better combat, level design than Bo Ring isn't something to brag about. Considering that Bo Ring's combat was only really servicable back in 2009.

Either way, you have been called out for this behaviour before by multiple people. Stop bashing games you havent played.

Lets say that it does beat it, why is nobody trying to copy its combat system if its so good?😅Even the climbing part, the only ones who copied are Chinese gasha games lmao.

Again, i played botw, nintendo has no talent at writing stories, or creating quality combat systems, so even if i didn't play botw, i wouldn't need to play totk to know that its story is cringe af and its combat system is on par with a student project created in a couple of months.

I don't care dude. I've finished Callisto Protocol 2 times now.

Have you even finished Elden Ring 2 times? Stop claiming it's your favourite game.

You probably missed all the BOTW clones a while back. And for the record, recreating BotW and TotK's combat is going to be difficult. Because of all the damn physics and interconnected parts.

Several Nintendo games have been kept alive for decades now, simply because of the combat mechanics. Same with Halo. Games like Smash, Splatoon and Pokemon have active competitive scenes even to this day. Souls PvP however?

F***S*** wishes they could have combat as expressive and dynamimc as this.

But alas, last time they tried adding something new and flashy, we got those poorly designed. Combat art skills. Maybe one day we will see things like mutliple interconnected parts, verticality, modes of defense that extend beyond quick time event dodge rolls. But alas, the entire combat system is built around a stamina gauge which only exists to punish you if you overextend. Not even a feature that can be played around with like you can in other games.

But I will leave this at that, this thread is about TotK's battle system, which people are still finding new ways to look cool in. Not a combat system that was barely serviceable back in 2009.

@Maroxad said:

@hardwenzen said:

Lets say that it does beat it, why is nobody trying to copy its combat system if its so good?😅Even the climbing part, the only ones who copied are Chinese gasha games lmao.

Again, i played botw, nintendo has no talent at writing stories, or creating quality combat systems, so even if i didn't play botw, i wouldn't need to play totk to know that its story is cringe af and its combat system is on par with a student project created in a couple of months.

You probably missed all the BOTW clones a while back. And for the record, recreating BotW and TotK's combat is going to be difficult. Because of all the damn physics and interconnected parts.

Several Nintendo games have been kept alive for decades now, simply because of the combat mechanics. Same with Halo. Games like Smash, Splatoon and Pokemon have active competitive scenes even to this day. Souls PvP however?

I didn't miss em. Ubishit made a pathetic clone, and Chinese gosha games like Genshin copied it. No good companies have copied it because its nothing special. On the other hand, the whole gaming industry has been copying Fromsoft since Dark Souls came out.

And who are you trying to fool? There isn't a single game from nintendo that is kept alive because of its combat system. The ones that survive for very long, survive for that long only because they're good at speed running. That's all Nintendo games are good for. Like sorry bro, but Nintendo's combat system is jumping on mushrooms for the last 40 years. You can't take em seriously. They've been crushed by Fromsoft for way over a decade now.

@R4gn4r0k: Well Callisto Protocol has a very nice dodge mechanic ;) I think TCP was a great game. Not just graphically (its facial animation / detail / quality is the best in the business, by far) but it was also well made and underrated imo.

@Maroxad: Literally the worst opinion on combat mechanics ever.

Sekiro has the best combat system ever created. Zelda: BOTW's combat is utterly mediocre.

Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2 are quite dated (they are all quite a bit older than BOTW) but are in my opinion at least as good as BOTW/TOTK if not better.

Dark Souls 3, Elden Ring and Bloodborne are miles better. Sekiro on top.

@clockworkbanana: Jesus christ you guys just do anything in your power to hate Sony lol.

GOW/GOWR's combat is vastly superior to anything Nintendo has ever done.

@Mozelleple112: yeah not just great graphics and animations. But I also liked the combat relying on a mix of melee, the GRIP and ranged.

The DLC starts out great but unfortunately gets worse as the game goes along.

No, it was a good take on combat mechanics and well explained as to why. Way better explanation than "Sekiro has the best combat ever created" and "Zelda is utterly mediocre". Those aren't explanations at all, and just sounds dumb.

Regarding the combat of Sekiro, I've finished the game 3 times as I really liked it. But 90% of the skills (arts) you unlock are useless. Same with the tools. It's always better to just use the sword the whole game through, and the game becomes quite the cakewalk as soon as you learn to parry and counter properly. The combat is far from the best.

Playing Nioh 2 right now. It has much deeper (better) combat than Sekiro or any Souls game.

We need more rolls, lots of rolls, just rolls. You shouldn't even be able to walk. No walking, no powers, no actions. Roll, roll, roll. And level up every 15 minutes.

Nah, its current one button combat system in 22fps is enough.

@hardwenzen: 22fps just makes it more challenging and cinematic. And you obviously never built a giant rotating dick that cums fire to destroy your foes. You want every game to be that other game.

Couldn't agree more tbh.

@Litchie: Sekiro has decent enough combat imo. Of all the FS games it was easily the most solid. Probably because of the lack of RPG elements, which makes things easier to tune.

And yeah, I do find the lack of actual arguments from some users pretty disappointing. Stating an opinion, but don't back it up with anything. This is what I was talking about with a lack of critical thinking skills some gamers possess in other threads :)

You are intelligent and rational though :)

Did you not see the competitive PvP games I mentioned?