Until a DEVELOPER counters Insomniac's TECHNICAL claims, their word is law!

1. So Gears is better and on 360, i hardly see anything PS3 positive here

2. 50GB are good, 2-3 DVD's are as good !!!

3. 360 HAS a HDD, and Oblivion USE it to the max, especially with he latest patch, so PS3 has no real advantage here

4. Again .... 360 wins, but it has more USUABLE ram too, since those 256 more MB on PS3 have to be accessed by one hell of a slow proccess, when on 360 they are accessed by CPU or GPU immediately

5. Major i would not call it, let aside that it can never be fully utilised, but having ONE core is barely a better thing for games, for HD movies maybe, NOT for game codeconceru3

I am not here to support/defend/bash either console. I'm the type of person who just likes to get real quantifiable information from a knowledgeable source. Since this is the first time any definitive comparison has been done openly by an actual developer (that I know of), I saying that UNTIL another Dev disputes any of Mr. Hastings' technical findings, then here in SW saying something contrary (for example saying that RFOM looks better than GEARS, or that the 360 has a more powerful CPU), is basically just talking out of your butt.

Also, the only problem I have with your #5 is that you aren't a game developer that I know of (if you are please correct me). So I can't take your opinion over Mr. Hastings.

[QUOTE="klactose"][QUOTE="Tylendal"]In response to reason five, as far as I know, the Cells that actually have as many as eight working processors aren't used in the PS3. They're used for military and medical. I think the PS3 cell processors only have 5 or 6 working cells, but this is really old, so it might have changed, or they might have found a more effecient way to manufacture the processors.useLOGIC

the point of all these new ps3 dev tools is to make it easier for devs to realize this power without having ot wait until the end of the lifecycle to see results... expect good stuff over the next year.

This is how it works:

The Cell processor has 8 SPUS and a PPU all working at 4 Ghz. BUT in the PS3 case they all work at 3.2 Ghz, only 7 of those 8 SPUS actually works, one of them is dedicated to redundancy calculations (don't ask me what is that), and the PPU coordenates the work of the SPUs.

I got a head ache from reading Jazreal's posts, he seems really angry with all those caps. I pictured a small boy screaming in my face.Spag1091

[QUOTE="LiquidMetal14"][QUOTE="MrGrimFandango"]Didnt he say that Xbox Live was $70 a year? his credibility was lost when he said that.MrGrimFandango

UH, how bout this. I don't recall spening $70, ever on XBL and I live in Canada where its higher priced.

"Among all the talk about the price of Sony's console, I almost never see anyone mention the significance of Sony's free online service. Xbox Live Gold costs $70 to sign up for 1 year, or $20 for three months."

Didnt he say that Xbox Live was $70 a year? his credibility was lost when he said that.MrGrimFandango

Two stupid things he said: [QUOTE="klactose"]As games get bigger, more advanced and more complex, they necessarily take up more space. If developers were filling up DVDs last generation, there are clearly going to be some sacrifices made to fit current generation games in the same amount of space. ... There's no question that you can always cut more levels, compress the audio more, compress the textures more, down-res the mpeg movies, and eventually get any game to fit on a DVD. But you paid for a high-def experience, right? You want the highest resolution, best audio, most cinematic experience a developer can offer, right? That's why Blu-Ray is important for games, and why it will become more important each year of this hardware cycle.magus-21

The problem with including a hard drive in one version of the 360 and not in the other is that developers can't use it for the games. Or, at least, they can't use it for any required features. When you are guaranteed to have at least a 20 GB hard drive in the console, you can write your load caching routines around it, or use it for your application's storage needs. To a developer, an optional hard drive is roughly equivalent to no hard drive at all.klactose

Firstly, you do realize that I didn't say any of that... so your quotes are misleading.But to address your issues. I agree with you that you won't necessarily need to have Blu-Ray, and that's why the technical bullet I included wasn't saying that Blu-Ray will make games better. It was saying that 50GB can make games better, be it on multiple DVDs or some other way. But I included it because many people on SW say that we will never need more than 9GBs. Until a Dev counters his claims concerning the benefits of having more than 9GBs, I'll have to take his word.

About the HD, it makes sense what he said, even on a practical level. Having 2 SKUs (one with and one without) will cause devs to focus on the developmental aspects that BOTH have. If one doesn't have it, it's likely that a dev will make the main game in a way that it doesn't need it.

As far as finding a quote from someone who's check isn't written by Sony, that would be hard as most devs have made games for Sony. But I do get your point and I agree, that his alliance would likely be towards Sony seeing as Insomniac makes games primarily exclusively for Sony. However, he isn't a Sony employee per se, and until another Dev produces some quotes concerning the technical issues that Mr. Hasting's has broached who would you rather we listen too? Random fanboys? My preference would actually be for an independant computer science engineering firm to do a full technical analysis of each console. However until that happens, I will take the word of Developers (when speaking about technical issues) over those of random people on system wars, or blogs, or other forums. I figure Devs won't lie about technical issues, seeing as they have to uphold their professionalism. And if they start telling outright lies about technical issues, then someone will make it known and pretty quickly. Hope that makes sense to you.

I don't think Insomniac word gets to be LAW until the come out with a game that can beat Gears of War. until then i'll take Epics word. Nugtoka

his company is owned by sony. im sorry but he only makes games for a sony console. i think capcom being mad at the fact that its hard to develop for the PS3 holds more wieght. thats a dev that makes games for all 3 consoles and has showed its distaste for how hard the PS3 is to develop for. this guys word isnt law lets get real. cause miyamoto(a legend as far as game developers are concerned) can talk about how the wii will win. and MS could get somebody from rare or bungie to talk about how the 360 will win. jg4xchamp

He is a Chief Creative Officer, this has nothing to do with programing, and just as many devs have called the 360 more powerfull than the PS3 as have called the PS3 more powerfull. I guess that is word wasn't law even before he spoke huh?SuperVegeta518

Also if you can give me a link of another Dev that has compared the technical attributes of the PS3 with the 360 that would be helpful. Because right now you are just talking with no proof. This is SW, links talk and BS walks. ;)

Who the hell is Insomniac,

billing

LOL. The TC say it is "LAW"....omg If a Developer say the Wii is the most powerful system..it becomes LAW:roll:

Wow, and also coming from a guy who's company makes game for Sony and saying his own games is one of the most beautiful game. Hardly ....... 

I don't think Insomniac word gets to be LAW until the come out with a game that can beat Gears of War. until then i'll take Epics word. Nugtoka

*snip*WilliamRLBaker

Didnt he say that Xbox Live was $70 a year? his credibility was lost when he said that.MrGrimFandango

He prob doesn't even own a 360 and he's knocking on it...

I would think developers are true gamers and own all system, so they know what they're up agenst.

But then again,

He's from Insomniac....

billing

[QUOTE="Nugtoka"]I don't think Insomniac word gets to be LAW until the come out with a game that can beat Gears of War. until then i'll take Epics word. Medic_B

 LOL. OWNED!!!!!! This sure throw's the Tc logic on One guy's so called "LAW"

His paycheck is signed by Sony. We cant take his word on the PS3 just as you cows said we couldn't take Sakaguchi's word on the 360. Unless it comes from a 3rd party dev, its probably propaganda.

/thread 

*snip*air0123

 

[QUOTE="Medic_B"][QUOTE="Nugtoka"]I don't think Insomniac word gets to be LAW until the come out with a game that can beat Gears of War. until then i'll take Epics word. hoankiemdinh

 LOL. OWNED!!!!!! This sure throw's the Tc logic on One guy's so called "LAW"

I completely agree with his wii is a fad point of view.palaric8

kind of like the ds right? Ds is still going strong and people tought it wouldnt last, the wii is going to sell great in it's life cycle and will get great games. 

His paycheck is signed by Sony. We cant take his word on the PS3 just as you cows said we couldn't take Sakaguchi's word on the 360. Unless it comes from a 3rd party dev, its probably propaganda.

 

/thread 

bloodychimp

Ok, by now everyone is aware of the "10 Reasons Sony Wins" article the Chief Creative Officer at Insomniac, Brian Hastings, wrote. Well this post ISN'T about his forecast for the future, half of his article is speculative and he isn't a fortune teller (I'll ask Cleo if I want to know the future).

What he is, however, is a Game developer with intimate knowledge of software and hardware. So the specific items he touched on regarding the technical attributes shall be considered true by me until another developer claims differently. I don't want to see any crappy posts in here from "anonymous devs". If they have something to say the should be willing to speak openly. I respect Brian for having the guts to put his professional opinion on the line. With that said, let's get busy and explore the technical issues he discussed.

1: Gears is the best looking game to date, including RFOM.[QUOTE="Brian Hastings"]Gears of War is a beautiful game and shows off the highest resolution textures of anything yet released, partly because of the Unreal Engine's ability to stream textures. This means that you can have much higher resolution textures than you could normally fit in your 512 MB of RAM.

...

Sometimes people ask us, "If Resistance takes 14 gigabytes, why doesn't it look better than Gears?" Well, for one, Resistance didn't support texture streaming, so we had to make choices about where we spent our high-res textures.klactose

2: 50GB of data WILL make games better.

As games get bigger, more advanced and more complex, they necessarily take up more space. If developers were filling up DVDs last generation, there are clearly going to be some sacrifices made to fit current generation games in the same amount of space.

...

There's no question that you can always cut more levels, compress the audio more, compress the textures more, down-res the mpeg movies, and eventually get any game to fit on a DVD. But you paid for a high-def experience, right? You want the highest resolution, best audio, most cinematic experience a developer can offer, right? That's why Blu-Ray is important for games, and why it will become more important each year of this hardware cycle.Brian Hastings

3: The Hard Drive MATTERS.

The problem with including a hard drive in one version of the 360 and not in the other is that developers can't use it for the games. Or, at least, they can't use it for any required features. When you are guaranteed to have at least a 20 GB hard drive in the console, you can write your load caching routines around it, or use it for your application's storage needs. To a developer, an optional hard drive is roughly equivalent to no hard drive at all.Brian Hastings

4: 360's GPU has slight edge over PS3's.

The GPUs on the Xbox 360 and PS3 are roughly equivalent, with the Xbox 360 arguably having a slight edge.Brian Hastings

5: PS3 has major CPU advantage over 360.

The difference in CPU power, however, is far greater with the PS3 enjoying the advantage. The PS3's eight parallel CPUs (one primary "PPU" and seven Cell processors) give it potentially far more computing power than the three parallel CPUs in the Xbox 360. Just about any tech programmer will tell you that the PS3's CPUs are significantly more powerful.Brian Hastings

So there you have it. Anything that disputes these points that doesn't come from another developer will be ignored, or proclaimed as bunk. However if another dev disputes this then we will finally have a real discussion in the gaming world about the real limitations of both of these consoles.

[QUOTE="bloodychimp"]

His paycheck is signed by Sony. We cant take his word on the PS3 just as you cows said we couldn't take Sakaguchi's word on the 360. Unless it comes from a 3rd party dev, its probably propaganda.

 

/thread

klactose

I never said anything about technical merits, just that he argued that the 360 was a better system. However, you missed the point of my post - that we cant take the word of a second party developer as law, as their paychecks are signed by the console companies that they develop for. Were you really expecting the head of a Sony owned studio to say that the Xbox 360 was the better console?

He is a Chief Creative Officer, this has nothing to do with programing, and just as many devs have called the 360 more powerfull than the PS3 as have called the PS3 more powerfull.SuperVegeta518

with regard to the last comment, is that so? Well lets see here.... ever hear of dev kits? Ever hear about the mind blowing cost of next gen game development? Burst a bubble time with regard to the bold statement about disputing. I will take a shot at that right now. If the 360 has the easiest dev kit to get on with and the largest user base of the 2 consoles, then it becomes the machine to develop on and the PS3 gets the 'port'. This is basic economics, no software co makes games on the least selling console with the hardest dev tools first if they want to stay in business. What does this mean? The super cancer curing, chuck norris bashing cell never gets used to its full potential. Note the word 'potentially' in his last comment and get used to it until the PS3 matches the 360 on price.orangeonxbox

Yes, I've heard of Dev kits. What has that got to do with anything I've brought up in this topic? Yes, I've heard about astronomical costs associated with game development as well. Again, what does that have to do with this topic?

I don't really disagree with too much of what you said, but do you realize that you haven't addressed one issue that this topic discusses other than realizing that Hastings' stated that the PS3's CPU has more "potential" than the 360's? You don't have to bother posting if you aren't even going to address the issues.

im betting that true hardcore gamers will get sick of wii's lack of depth. minigame-type games only go so faruseLOGIC

I completely agree with his wii is a fad point of view.palaric8

[QUOTE="klactose"][QUOTE="bloodychimp"]

His paycheck is signed by Sony. We cant take his word on the PS3 just as you cows said we couldn't take Sakaguchi's word on the 360. Unless it comes from a 3rd party dev, its probably propaganda.

 

/thread

bloodychimp

I never said anything about technical merits, just that he argued that the 360 was a better system. However, you missed the point of my post - that we cant take the word of a second party developer as law, as their paychecks are signed by the console companies that they develop for. Were you really expecting the head of a Sony owned studio to say that the Xbox 360 was the better console?

[QUOTE="palaric8"]I completely agree with his wii is a fad point of view.Japanese_Monk

[QUOTE="palaric8"]I completely agree with his wii is a fad point of view.Japanese_Monk

[QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"]He is a Chief Creative Officer, this has nothing to do with programing, and just as many devs have called the 360 more powerfull than the PS3 as have called the PS3 more powerfull.fuzzysquash

[QUOTE="billing"]

Who the hell is Insomniac,

Runningflame570

[QUOTE="billing"]

Who the hell is Insomniac,

Runningflame570

very nice explanation of this claim
very nice read
I also agree with everything Insomniac is saying. 
Best thread of 2007 so farm0rphl1ng

very nice explanation of this claim
very nice read
I also agree with everything Insomniac is saying.
Best thread of 2007 so farm0rphl1ng

So the TC is just going to ignore all the negative flack that devs have said about PS3 development now that this guy chimed in?

When was the last time Insomniac worked on the 360 platform? 

Trying to use verbiage that sounds like legal jargon does not make this any more convincing.

Anyone who thinks the words of the Chi Creative Officer for a developer that does nothing but put out games for Sony needs to get a clue.  You take this mans word as unbiased and you are a fool. 

These guys made Ratchet and Clank and FOM and Spyro.  The first idiot to say Oh but but but but they aren't owned by Sony gets shot.  They may not be owned but since they have chosen to put allllll their eggs in the Sony basket they have a vested interest in making that succeed especially the idiots at imsomniac which aparantly arent' as bright as the good folks at CapCom that enough sense to take their show on the road and not devel exclusively for Sony.

Thi "Chief Creative Officer for Imsomniac's word is crap"  Oh what a coincidence we finally found that one developer that still believes the PS3 is the **** and they aren't developing a single game for the competition.

You people that take this article to heart are noobs and gullible a frankly stupid..

Anyone who thinks the words of the Chi Creative Officer for a developer that does nothing but put out games for Sony needs to get a clue.  You take this mans word as unbiased and you are a fool. 

These guys made Ratchet and Clank and FOM and Spyro.  The first idiot to say Oh but but but but they aren't owned by Sony gets shot.  They may not be owned but since they have chosen to put allllll their eggs in the Sony basket they have a vested interest in making that succeed especially the idiots at imsomniac which aparantly arent' as bright as the good folks at CapCom that enough sense to take their show on the road and not devel exclusively for Sony.

 

Thi "Chief Creative Officer for Imsomniac's word is crap"  Oh what a coincidence we finally found that one developer that still believes the PS3 is the **** and they aren't developing a single game for the competition.

You people that take this article to heart are noobs and gullible a frankly stupid..

 

-CMG-

[QUOTE="klactose"] And while I agree with much of that... You haven't addressed the topic of THIS post which addressed the technical issues he brought up. Those technical issues shouldn't be dismissed so quickly. And until another developer discounts them, this is the most authoritative comparison of the technical issues I've pointed out.MaTT2011

Do you realize that you STILL haven't addressed what this post is talking about? And the LOGIC behind holding this dev's PROFESSIONAL opinion concerning the TECHNICAL merits of the PS3 and the 360, above that of simple fanboys to me seems quite apparent. But to spell it out AGAIN. In the professional world, MOST people in SCIENTIFIC and TECHNICAL fields will NOT tell outright lies due to the simple fact that TECHNICAL and SCIENTIFIC analysis can be VERIFIED by peers.

With that said, I am simply stating that UNTIL one of his peers presents evidence that contradicts his own analysis then it should be accepted as fact. If he is mistaken, then we should hear pretty soon from another dev. And it is THIS conversation and in-depth exploration on the technical merits of these two systems that actually interest me, NOT the small minded "I want my favorite console to win" conversation that the majority of posts here have presented.

If you read what I've written you would realize that I have no particular allegiance to either console. So, now please explain to me, what part of "logic" am I missing?

[QUOTE="-CMG-"]

Anyone who thinks the words of the Chi Creative Officer for a developer that does nothing but put out games for Sony needs to get a clue. You take this mans word as unbiased and you are a fool.

These guys made Ratchet and Clank and FOM and Spyro. The first idiot to say Oh but but but but they aren't owned by Sony gets shot. They may not be owned but since they have chosen to put allllll their eggs in the Sony basket they have a vested interest in making that succeed especially the idiots at imsomniac which aparantly arent' as bright as the good folks at CapCom that enough sense to take their show on the road and not devel exclusively for Sony.

Thi "Chief Creative Officer for Imsomniac's word is crap" Oh what a coincidence we finally found that one developer that still believes the PS3 is the **** and they aren't developing a single game for the competition.

You people that take this article to heart are noobs and gullible a frankly stupid..

klactose

[QUOTE="klactose"]First question I would have to ask after reading your rant is: Did you actually READ my post? It seems that a LOT of fanboys are jumping to conclusions about what this topic is about. Now, if you have read the post and aren't jumping to conclusions, then please, please, PLEASE, provide me some link to all the Devs that discredit the technical issues brought up by Mr. Hastings.BlackDianWei

Hahaha! :lol: That is true... it is very hard to get a logical conversation going here. Sometimes I don't even know why I try! :P But anyway, that "DEE DEE DEE's" comment sounds like something we'd say here in Chicago, and I never expected to see it used on this website! :lol: Where are you from?