MS: Please support the ESRAM even though we are abandoning it. . . (Scorpio white papers reveal the sad truth)

@Shewgenja said:

@Pedro said:

@oflow said:

All you need to know is cows will be like this when Scorpio comes out.

@kvally said:

http://gametransfers.com/xbox-chief-reiterates-that-project-scorpio-will-not-have-exclusive-games/

Xbox Chief reiterates that Project Scorpio will not have exclusive games

We all know ya'll will be hyping 360 games being added to BC after this thing comes out. Ya'll thought you were getting something. It's actually kinda funny.

The difference between Scorpio and XBO is like R9-390X OC at 1070 Mhz vs R7-360 at 853 Mhz.

R7-360 will run the same games as R9-390X OC but with significantly reduced resolution and graphics details.

XBO's Bonaire based GPU has DirectX12 Feature Level 12_0 which is the minimum for incoming Shader Model 6 support.

@Shewgenja said:

@Pedro said:

@oflow said:

All you need to know is cows will be like this when Scorpio comes out.

@kvally said:

http://gametransfers.com/xbox-chief-reiterates-that-project-scorpio-will-not-have-exclusive-games/

Xbox Chief reiterates that Project Scorpio will not have exclusive games

We all know ya'll will be hyping 360 games being added to BC after this thing comes out. Ya'll thought you were getting something. It's actually kinda funny.

I applaud any BC we can get with Nintendo, PlayStation and Xbox. If it has it, sweet. If it doesn't, no big deal. I kept my Xbox 360 for my 360 games, but then when my games were made BC with my Xbox One, I just sold my 360. If my PS3 hadn't died, and if Sony added BC to the PS4, I would have done the same and sold off my PS3 when those games were made BC on the PS4. If they never made it to the PS4, I would have just retained my PS3. No matter, I ended up buying the Journey on my PS4, and The Last of Us for my PS4 (which I never got to finish on my PS3 because it had died). So I bought The Last of Us two times, but meh...it's worth it. I enjoy gaming, so I don't care if I spend extra money on the hobby.

@ronvalencia said:

@Shewgenja said:

@Pedro said:

@oflow said:

All you need to know is cows will be like this when Scorpio comes out.

@kvally said:

http://gametransfers.com/xbox-chief-reiterates-that-project-scorpio-will-not-have-exclusive-games/

Xbox Chief reiterates that Project Scorpio will not have exclusive games

We all know ya'll will be hyping 360 games being added to BC after this thing comes out. Ya'll thought you were getting something. It's actually kinda funny.

The difference between Scorpio and XBO is like R9-390X OC at 1070 Mhz vs R7-360 at 853 Mhz.

R7-360 will run the same games as R9-390X OC but with significantly reduced resolution and graphics details.

XBO's Bonaire based GPU has DirectX12 Feature Level 12_0 which is the minimum for incoming Shader Model 6 support.

What on earth does that have to do with what Shewjenga said? It's like Shewjenga said "I love brown rice with soy sauce", and you replied with "paper cuts can be annoying when salted just right"

Da fuq?

Again, Scorpio's first party games was stated to render at native 4K just like R9-390X's results.

3 first party games established a reference GPU i.e. Scorpio being R9-390X like solution.

@kvally said:

@ronvalencia said:

@Shewgenja said:

@Pedro said:

@kvally said:

http://gametransfers.com/xbox-chief-reiterates-that-project-scorpio-will-not-have-exclusive-games/

Xbox Chief reiterates that Project Scorpio will not have exclusive games

We all know ya'll will be hyping 360 games being added to BC after this thing comes out. Ya'll thought you were getting something. It's actually kinda funny.

The difference between Scorpio and XBO is like R9-390X OC at 1070 Mhz vs R7-360 at 853 Mhz.

R7-360 will run the same games as R9-390X OC but with significantly reduced resolution and graphics details.

XBO's Bonaire based GPU has DirectX12 Feature Level 12_0 which is the minimum for incoming Shader Model 6 support.

What on earth does that have to do with what Shewjenga said? It's like Shewjenga said "I love brown rice with soy sauce", and you replied with "paper cuts can be annoying when salted just right"

Da fuq?

My point was for "Xbox Chief reiterates that Project Scorpio will not have exclusive games".

During an interview with Windows Central, the head of Xbox platform, Mike Ybarra, gave some comments on Project Scorpio, mentioning again that the console will be “100% backwards compatible” with the Xbox One and that the system will not be exclusive.

just bringing up the what if another jaguar cpu rendition

STFU resolution is a fu**ing job of the GPU the CPU has shit to do with it,if you are CPU bottleneck rising or lowering resolution will not fix the problem,the reduce CPU show in higher resolution is do to the GPU being more taxed by the higher pixel count and having less resources.

1080p vs 4k.

1080p has nothing to do with a CPU bound scenario buffoon,nothing at all the load the CPU is handling does,60FPS,many enemies on screen at once and many things at once as well.

That link in nothing proves DF wrong,is an old link from last year DF article is from this year and quote MS own internal documents.

Even the pro can render native 4k it just depend on what game it is dude.

By the way any benchmark using an i7 and R390X invalidated your argument,there is no intel CPU inside scorpio.

Scorpio will use checkerboard rendering just like the pro so again it is just as half assed as the Pro is.... Deal with it.

Wrong... As the xbox one doesn't support VR and Scorpio does so any VR game out for Scorpio will not be on XBO and if the game is not on PC surely is an exclusive.

Hmmm. I bough two PS2 games to play on my PS4 Pro. I guess I should yell at Sony for having PS2 games instead of PS3 games. Ok, noted.

VR is a massive flop anyways, if SONYs VR is any indication, so I'd be glad not to have that trash.

That dude is a whiny punk, he claims to be a gamer but bitches at BC (no self respecting real gamer would complain about BC)

Not to mention, PS5 will most likely have BC and he'll be blowing SONY on his knees.

@FLOPPAGE_50: I'm "bitching" because BC is all ya'll got for the past couple of years. I'm also sure as sunshine that you didn't give a flying damn when the PS3 had BC.

But hey, if Scorpio shows up with new game anmouncements, I'll gladly eat crow.

You are so not good at this, you're not educated about anything you're discussing and as such you post stupid ass videos like this...

The CPU usage is staying the same because the framerate is locked at 60 FPS for both 4K and 1080p... If you removed the cap the CPU usage at 1080p would skyrocket far beyond the uncapped 4K CPU usage, there's even a guy in the Youtube comments saying the same thing... "The FPS seems to be capped at 60"

Holy hell man, you are just so terrible at all of this, you should just deactivate your forum account and save us all the embarrassment...

Are you sweating yet? You should be.

P.S. Stop trying to warp this argument into something else you think you can win, you stated that Ultra settings compared to lower settings has a negative affect on the CPU, it doesn't, it doesn't do anything, changing the graphics settings does absolutely nothing, you're done, this conversation is over. I'm not going to further entertain this extended idiocy because you're wrong and have to change the topic to something else.

Remember this?

This was our "argument", and you got shut down with inarguable evidence, multiple times and decided to go on a shit posting fit to bring this conversation so off course it has nothing to do with the beginning point, take a walk.

uh, I still have my PS3 with BC, it's a fantastic feature.

and BC is still relatively "new".. not the past couple of years.

I know you're a huge Xbox hater, but don't call yourself a "true" gamer if you are a BC hater, BC is nothing but good.

I still have my BC PlayStation 3 as well, just wondering when it's going to brick itself, it seems like an eventuality for all of them, I've been lucky I guess.

Taking the disc out of mine is a pain, I need to spam the eject button about 5 times for the disc to come out.

But I love my george foreman grill PS3, I've had it for a long ass time and it's been reliable.

@ronvalencia: So what are the odds that the Xbox Scorpio is using 12 gigs of GDDR5x Ram, Puma CPU using some tech from Ryzen, and the GPU some form of Vega chip?

That's based on DF's remarks who didn't publically leak the original documentation for independent verification. Refer to Wikileak's original documentation disclosure methods.

https://www.vg247.com/2016/09/19/microsofts-project-scorpio-will-run-first-party-games-at-native-4k/

In an interview with USA Today, Shannon Loftis, Microsoft Studios Publishing general manager, confirmed that the company’s first-party titles made for the Xbox One Project Scorpio will run at native 4K.

“Any games we’re making that we’re launching in the Scorpio time frame, we’re making sure they can natively render at 4K,” she said.

My posted MS first party 4K R9-390X benchmarks supports Shannon Loftis claims.

http://digiworthy.com/2016/10/10/phil-spencer-xbox-scorpio-not-use-amd-jaguar/

About two and a half years ago we started to look at a hardware refresh that we might want to do, which in the end led to the Xbox One S and Scorpio in terms of designs. We’d looked at doing something that was higher performance this year, and I’d say the [PS4] Pro is about what we thought–with the GPU, CPU, memory that was here this year–that you could go do, and we decided that we wanted to do something different.

So we looked at Scorpio and 4K and what I thought was a bigger step in terms of performance. It was something that we wanted to focus on.

At 4K resolution, it's mostly GPU bound.

Game consoles has an official method to bypass the driver's JIT-re-complier layer i.e. GCN "hit-the-metal" Intrinsic Functions which further reduces DX12/Vulkan's already low CPU overheads.

A programmer can increase shader complexity without incurring higher CPU driver re-complier overheads via GCN "hit-the-metal" Intrinsic Functions. The same CPU still delivers the same 3D dot product rate.

Monthly AMD update drivers includes shader replacement programs for targeted games i.e. moving shader program from API side to the driver side. AMD's shader replacement programs could be already complied for their supported GPUs.

Athlon 5350 (quad core Puma) at 2.3 Ghz bottlenecks Doom Vulkan + R9-290 OC (~5.1 TFLOPS) which includes hit-the-metal GCN "hit-the-metal" Intrinsic Functions.

Athlon 5350 needs to further overclock to around 2.6 to 2.9 Ghz.

AMD CPUs in semi-custom business are mostly copy-and-paste engineering job. XBO S already has updated TSMC 16 nm FinFET Puma CPU which is the 3rd improvement version over the original Jaguar. TSMC 16 nm FinFET boost for Puma was disappointing i.e. small 30 percent boost in clock speed.

RYZEN is almost a straight 2X scale over Jaguar's design on most functional unit count with store unit still being single.

RYZEN has 4 ALU, 2 FMUL, 2 FADD, 2 load, 4 X86 instructions per cycle decode with 6 Ops dispatch rate and Op-Cache(cache for converted RISC instructions). Ops instructions are RISC type instruction after being converted from X86 instruction.

Jaguar has 2 ALU, 1 FMUL, 1 FADD, 1 load, 2 X86 instructions per cycle decode.

RYZEN has 512 KB L2 cache per core, hence 8 core version 4 MB L2 cache with 16 MB L3 cache.

8 core Jaguar has 4 MB L2 cache.

Cut-down RYZEN.... remove or reduce L3 cache. 8 core RYZEN's 4 MB L2 cache is enough for games.

Examples from Global Foundries' FinFET may not reflect TSMC's 16 nm FinFET version e.g. the lowest Poaris 10 SKU from GF is RX-470D with 4.5 TFLOPS while TSMC's 16 nm FinFET version has 4.2 TFLOPS GPU for PS4 Pro.

RX-470D has reached 2.45X perf/watt while PS4 Pro has reached 2.3X perf/watt while AMD's road map has paper Polaris at 2.5X perf/watt. My point, there are differences between GF and TSMC worst case working clock speed yields.

Vega is AMD's second attempt on 14/16 nm FinFET process node with 4X perf/watt targets.

Perhaps AMD's second attempt with Puma FinFET would yield higher clock speeds.

that article makes it seem even less likely that xbone and xbone s will get all the games (not talking about VR). The way he talks about it, it's like he's making an argument that third parties will choose to make every game work on all three platforms. There's no edict that forces them to. He said there will not be exclusive software, and if there is a year or even just half a year of that being true, he can say that's all he meant by it. This is totally in line when they said they will "ask" developers to make Scorpio games compatible with xbone.

There will be a game like Star Citizen, that's considered high end for PCs only, and they'll find a way to put it on the Scorpio, but won't bother with the xbone.

The rendering thread still has 60 hzupdate rate but with 30 hz CPU animation AI interpolation (faking 3D points between real calculated 3D points) to 60 hz. The context is for supporting XBO's 30 hz while supporting Scorpio's higher grade GPU. Scorpio's CPU render thread for the GPU still renders at 60 hz.

You have to split CPU AI 30 hz update rate from CPU rendering thread at 60 hz which feeds the GPU. Significant number of XBO games has 30 hz CPU AI and 30 hz GPU render update rate.

The bottleneck is supporting XBO's CPU 30 hz logic.

Bad game console port on PC has similar issues i.e. 30 hz AI update and 30 hz GPU render update (aka 30 fps cap limit). 3rd party hacks (e.g. direct3D API intercept) changes 30 hz/30 fps cap limit with 60 hz.

For Project Cars PS4 build, you have four Jaguar CPU cores allocated for rendering thread which is not even AI CPU threads.

---------------

R9-390X's frame rate different from RX-480 makes a difference between reaching native 4k with 30 fps threshold and failing native 4k with 30 fps threshold. R9-390X is a better native 4K handling GPU over RX-480.

MS didn't coupled their 6 TFLOPS GPU with RX-480's 256bit GDDR5-8000 memory bus nor PS4 Pro's 256bit GDDR5-7000 + at least 64bit DDR3-xxxx.

For PS4 Pro

DDR3 = at least 64bits wide

DDR3L = at least 32 bits wide

DDDR3-2100 x 64 bits = ~16.6 GB/s. PS4 Pro could have GDDR5 218 GB/s + DDR3 16.6 GB/s = 234 GB/s. GPU doesn't use DDR3 memory pool.

For Scorpio

GDDR5-7000 348 bit yield 328 GB/s physical memory bandwidth.

Effective memory bandwidth for Polaris 10's delta memory compression with GDDR5-7000 348 bit will exceed R9-390X's ~314 GB/s effective memory bandwidth. CPU AI's 30 hz update will cap it's CPU bandwidth usage.

RX-470 vs R9-390X.

4K (16:9) frame buffer has 8,294,400 pixels.

R9-390X: 35 fps x 8,294,400 pixels = 290,304,000 pixels rendered per second

RX-470: 23 fps x 8,294,400 pixels = 190,771,200 pixels rendered per second

At per second rate, that's 99,532,800 pixel difference. The difference would be larger for the lesser RX-470D SKU.

The pixel difference is less on 1920x1080p/~30 fps vs 1600x900p/~30 fps or 1920x1080/~60 fps vs 1920x1080/~40 fps.

For 1920x1080p/~60 fps vs 1920x1080/~40 fps example

For 1920x1080p/~30 fps vs 1600x900p/~30 fps example

Phil did say that they are not using Jaguar and second they said they wanted a console that has a balance between the GPU/CPU. Only a few more months before we know for sure.

http://wccftech.com/xbox-scorpio-wont-feature-jaguar-cpu-likely-might-features-planned-ryzen/

A few hours ago, Windows Central Senior Editor Jez Corden revealed on his Twitter profile that he did manage to get a look at the same document Digital Foundry obtained, and, in his opinion, the Xbox Scorpio is most likely not going to be powered by a Jaguar CPU.

DF's Richard Leadbetter doesn't know Direct3D and CPU AI software programming modeling.

Scorpio still has rendering thread at 60 hz update rate.

"graphics at 60Hz but the CPU at 30Hz and interpolating animation"

http://wccftech.com/xbox-scorpio-full-blown-next-gen-machine-not-half-assed-upgrade-according-ori-developer/

Scorpio is a next-gen machine with the added benefit that all your old games will still be compatible. From this point on, similar to PCs, you’ll not lose your library when you buy a next-gen system. I guess since NeoGAF is confused, Microsoft will need to do a little work to make it clear to everyone that Scorpio isn’t just a half-assed upgrade (which the PS4 Pro kinda is…), but a full-blown next-gen machine that’s just backwards-compatible to your current library.

But tormentos is right , what does it matter the cpu benchmarks are from 1080p, cpu benchmarks are never made with 4k, why would they, 4k is completely gpu dependent and will make the differences between cpu's less prevalent since the comparison is measured in framerates. The fact that your i7 increases its usage could be due to a number of factors, driver related issues from your amd card for example (which have been observed in this benchmark)

The cpu isn't going to be able to dish out more frames because of the lower resolution, since it's completely gpu dependent, the cpu load is the same. Your cpu is showing less usage because of some other reason which is unrelated to a cpu bottleneck.

ultra requires a better cpu in some scenarios, it all depends how the game is developped, but nowadays you will be mostly right since gpgpu techniques will leave the cpu mostly alone. Like it is the case in the witcher 3 and rise of the tomb raider.

However, when you're cutting it short with a cpu like the jaguar. There isn't much room to move, as much as possible will have to be moved to the gpu, resulting in lower framerates/performance/quality. Ac unity is a great example of this, it took the ps4 months to optimize the game just because it had a cpu that was 10 percent slower than the xboxone. Still ac unity was a demanding game for the cpu, but even the witcher 3 needed patching and optimizations on the ps4 and that's a game that runs mostly on the gpu.

Devs will be and are already more accustomed to gpgpu tools but there's no denying that a jaguar in the scorpio will hold the scorpio back. Then again, 2 tflops of extra perfomance can go a long way compared to the ps4 pro. Devs can maintain better performance using gpgpu tools when cpu demand increases even at a higher resolution and higher graphic settings, it's obvious when you look at the differences between the ps4 and xboxone this gen.

When the scorpio is using the jaguar the difference in performance with the ps4 pro will still be much higher than it was with the xboxone and ps4. The ps4 pro doesn't have any esram to help out, not to mention the difference in tflops is much higher. Something tells me that microsoft would be able to run the cpu at higher clockrates as well.

and that is worst case scenario for the scorpio, the article from df proves nothing. Microsoft could have already changed direction since that paper but the mentioning of scorpio at the new horizon stand could be idd only about vega. So nobody knows, with all the info we have now it's all speculation.

@commander: while gpgpu is great you can't simply offload all cpu tasks to gpu nor is it profitable to do so either, stuff like shadow mapping, decal amounts, draw distance etc. all push the amount of draw calls the cpu issues.

of course not all but you're forgetting that the cpu in the scorpio, if it's a jag, will already be running at higher clock speeds.

https://developer.amd.com/wordpress/media/2012/10/Isidoro-ShadowMapping.pdf

GPU based shadow mapping via pixel shaders.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb975671(v=xnagamestudio.31).aspx

How To: Implement Shadow Mapping

To render shadows in HLSL with a shadow map

• Use per-pixel lighting to render shadows with a shadow map in HLSL.

  The vertex shader for this effect performs a normal world-view-projection transformation on the POSITION supplied by the video card. It also transforms the NORMAL. Both of these values are passed as output. The UV coordinate for the texture is passed through to the pixel shader, along with a copy of the untransformed POSITION value.

http://www.realtimeshadows.com/sites/default/files/Playing%20with%20Real-Time%20Shadows_0.pdf

For CryEngine 3.

Soft Shadows Approximation has Compute Shader option: fetch all taps to CS shared memory and reuse them for both distance estimation and shadow computation

http://wccftech.com/xbox-scorpio-wont-feature-jaguar-cpu-likely-might-features-planned-ryzen/

A few hours ago, Windows Central Senior Editor Jez Corden revealed on his Twitter profile that he did manage to get a look at the same document Digital Foundry obtained, and, in his opinion, the Xbox Scorpio is most likely not going to be powered by a Jaguar CPU.