If you wii haters are 'real gamers', here are some 'real games' (no 56k)

[QUOTE="tree-branch"]

That list just isnt good.

most of them look like kids game.

nintendo is ruining gaming.

kman3002

:o Tree-branch returns! Man I thought you were dead.Oh well better cancel that celebration party.

Nice try TC but somethings i've learned from my time atsystem wars are

The Wiiwill always be "teh kidday" system

The PS3 will always be "only a blu-ray player with no games" :roll:

and the 360 will always be "filled with mediocre shooters".

None of these are true but trying to convince fanboys otherwise is impossible.

why does everyone know this guy lol oh well i think of tree branch as the xbox 360's KeyWii lol

[QUOTE="TrueReligion_"]Good list for Wii fans; but only three games in that list intrigue me: and you all probably know which three they are. chutup

OK, one of them has to be Dragon Blade so...

no but seriously this is just the kind of reaction I was hoping to get. I don't mind people who say those games don't interest them, but if they argue that those games are bad or casual then they are just plain wrong.

This thread lacks Dragon Quest Swords.:|

The game I'm keeping an eye out for is Dragonblade. After seeing a vid of it in action it looked pretty good.

Although Gaming4_Life is right I can't say this will end anytime soon considering the ground this thread exists on. :?

The game I'm keeping an eye out for is Dragonblade. After seeing a vid of it in action it looked pretty good.

Although Gaming4_Life is right I can't say this will end anytime soon considering the ground this thread exists on. :?

Teh_Stevz

Gamespot makes Pisa seem like solid bedrock.

Gamespot makes Pisa seem like solid bedrock.Runningflame570

Forgive me. I'm unfamiliar with this analogy. :oops:Teh_Stevz

The Tower of Pisa, they constructed it but the ground was too soft and so it started tipping, they sunk it around 15 feet some years ago to keep it from actually falling over but its still leaning more and more.

[QUOTE="Teh_Stevz"]Forgive me. I'm unfamiliar with this analogy. :oops:Runningflame570

Why are games like De Blob andDewy's adventure on this list? Plus Zack and Wiki and Crystal Chronicles are casual games. Soul Calibre Legends and Dragon Blade seem mediocre (not to mention the real Final Fantasy and Soul Calibre games are coming to PS3). Meanwhile, don't expect to see disaster and project hammer soon, as they are not casual enough and resources have been shifted for more "casual" games.

Enjoy the casual experience, only on Wii.

Why are games like De Blob andDewy's adventure on this list? Plus Zack and Wiki and Crystal Chronicles are casual games. Soul Calibre Legends and Dragon Blade seem mediocre (not to mention the real Final Fantasy and Soul Calibre games are coming to PS3). Meanwhile, don't expect to see disaster and project hammer soon, as they are not casual enough and resources have been shifted for more "casual" games.

Enjoy the casual experience, only on Wii.

hamidious

de Blob and Dewy's are on there because they both look great. I'm guessing you don't like them because they don't have gritty and realistic graphics, and also involve no shooting whatsoever. Zack and Wiki and Crystal Chronicles are casual? Come on, you people will call anything casual nowadays. And there is nothing but positive feedback from critics on Dragon Blade. Soul Calibur Legends has gotten a bit of bad press from Joystiq or so I hear but it is Soul Calibur.

Why are games like De Blob andDewy's adventure on this list? Plus Zack and Wiki and Crystal Chronicles are casual games. Soul Calibre Legends and Dragon Blade seem mediocre (not to mention the real Final Fantasy and Soul Calibre games are coming to PS3). Meanwhile, don't expect to see disaster and project hammer soon, as they are not casual enough and resources have been shifted for more "casual" games.

Enjoy the casual experience, only on Wii.

hamidious

I LOL'd at this post.

Haha, those are real games huh? The only ones that hold promise there are the Mario titles, and even then those are simple re-hashes. You were even desperate enough to post artwork?! Haha, the sheep really are in denial if they think the Wii has games that can compare to Lair, Halo 3, Mass Effect, Bio-Shock, Fable 2, and so much more it's not even funny. Only thing the Wii has are ports of good games, and good sales, and that's it. The rest is mini-game crap, and most of the hyped exclusives will either end up A: Flopping B: Getting delayed into obscurity or just being flat out cancelled C: turning out to be yet another Mario re-hash.

Oh, and did you just hype a Sega game? Is there something...wrong with you?

[QUOTE="hamidious"]

Why are games like De Blob andDewy's adventure on this list? Plus Zack and Wiki and Crystal Chronicles are casual games. Soul Calibre Legends and Dragon Blade seem mediocre (not to mention the real Final Fantasy and Soul Calibre games are coming to PS3). Meanwhile, don't expect to see disaster and project hammer soon, as they are not casual enough and resources have been shifted for more "casual" games.

Enjoy the casual experience, only on Wii.

Eponique

I LOL'd at this post.

There's a certain degree of validity to that. If you're trying to take on my viewpoint on the Wii, you need to do it with games that cater to my taste - not games that cater to the taste you're telling me I should have. You can't say "we're showing the hardcore gamer how great we are" by showcasing games only Wii fans are into - study the audience you're trying to impress.

When I want to show a Wii fan why the PC is great, I'll show them a game like Psychonauts - at the very least have the courtesy to pretend to understand the hardcore audience enough not to try and shove Dewy's Adventure, de Blob, Dragon Quest: Swords, or Project HAMMER down our throats - these *aren't* titles hardcore gamers consider to be hardcore - if Nintendo fans do, fine, but consider who you're marketing to.

What you've done here TC is create a post that's a rallying cry for people who are *already* fans of the Wii, and completely failed to capitalize on your goal of showing people who are "Wii haters" that they're wrong. If anything, the poor choice of using screenshots for a system that's strengths *do not* lie in graphics will reinforce the idea that the Wii is weak, which, combined with your selection of games results in something that says to the "haters" - "hey, you were right."
subrosian

So Dewy's Adventure, DQ Swords and de Blob aren't 'hardcore' enough for you? By this logic you could trash on any game. I could say that Half-Life 2 is not 'hardcore'. Don't agree? Well, obviously, you're also not hardcore, therefore your opinion is invalid. Your argument is unbreakable because you define the key group as those who share your opinion, therefore as soon as someone disagrees with you they are out of the group.

Rather than putting words into your mouth, I'd like to hear from you. What makes DQ Swords, Dewy's, de Blob and Project HAMMER not 'hardcore' enough for your tastes?

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

There's a certain degree of validity to that. If you're trying to take on my viewpoint on the Wii, you need to do it with games that cater to my taste - not games that cater to the taste you're telling me I should have. You can't say "we're showing the hardcore gamer how great we are" by showcasing games only Wii fans are into - study the audience you're trying to impress.

When I want to show a Wii fan why the PC is great, I'll show them a game like Psychonauts - at the very least have the courtesy to pretend to understand the hardcore audience enough not to try and shove Dewy's Adventure, de Blob, Dragon Quest: Swords, or Project HAMMER down our throats - these *aren't* titles hardcore gamers consider to be hardcore - if Nintendo fans do, fine, but consider who you're marketing to.

What you've done here TC is create a post that's a rallying cry for people who are *already* fans of the Wii, and completely failed to capitalize on your goal of showing people who are "Wii haters" that they're wrong. If anything, the poor choice of using screenshots for a system that's strengths *do not* lie in graphics will reinforce the idea that the Wii is weak, which, combined with your selection of games results in something that says to the "haters" - "hey, you were right."
chutup

So Dewy's Adventure, DQ Swords and de Blob aren't 'hardcore' enough for you? By this logic you could trash on any game. I could say that Half-Life 2 is not 'hardcore'. Don't agree? Well, obviously, you're also not hardcore, therefore your opinion is invalid. Your argument is unbreakable because you define the key group as those who share your opinion, therefore as soon as someone disagrees with you they are out of the group.

Rather than putting words into your mouth, I'd like to hear from you. What makes DQ Swords, Dewy's, de Blob and Project HAMMER not 'hardcore' enough for your tastes?

There's a certain degree of validity to that. If you're trying to take on my viewpoint on the Wii, you need to do it with games that cater to my taste - not games that cater to the taste you're telling me I should have. You can't say "we're showing the hardcore gamer how great we are" by showcasing games only Wii fans are into - study the audience you're trying to impress.

When I want to show a Wii fan why the PC is great, I'll show them a game like Psychonauts - at the very least have the courtesy to pretend to understand the hardcore audience enough not to try and shove Dewy's Adventure, de Blob, Dragon Quest: Swords, or Project HAMMER down our throats - these *aren't* titles hardcore gamers consider to be hardcore - if Nintendo fans do, fine, but consider who you're marketing to.

What you've done here TC is create a post that's a rallying cry for people who are *already* fans of the Wii, and completely failed to capitalize on your goal of showing people who are "Wii haters" that they're wrong. If anything, the poor choice of using screenshots for a system that's strengths *do not* lie in graphics will reinforce the idea that the Wii is weak, which, combined with your selection of games results in something that says to the "haters" - "hey, you were right."
subrosian

Subrosian: eloquent and concise; I expect no less from you.

Chutup: remember when I told you this would happen?

[quote="chutup"]

6. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

Another big hitter which I don't need to explain. One thing though: If one more person tells me that stacking beams and transforming into a super form is 'casual', I won't be responsible for my actions.0rin

Have you EVER played Metroid Prime?

[QUOTE="chutup"]

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

There's a certain degree of validity to that. If you're trying to take on my viewpoint on the Wii, you need to do it with games that cater to my taste - not games that cater to the taste you're telling me I should have. You can't say "we're showing the hardcore gamer how great we are" by showcasing games only Wii fans are into - study the audience you're trying to impress.

When I want to show a Wii fan why the PC is great, I'll show them a game like Psychonauts - at the very least have the courtesy to pretend to understand the hardcore audience enough not to try and shove Dewy's Adventure, de Blob, Dragon Quest: Swords, or Project HAMMER down our throats - these *aren't* titles hardcore gamers consider to be hardcore - if Nintendo fans do, fine, but consider who you're marketing to.

What you've done here TC is create a post that's a rallying cry for people who are *already* fans of the Wii, and completely failed to capitalize on your goal of showing people who are "Wii haters" that they're wrong. If anything, the poor choice of using screenshots for a system that's strengths *do not* lie in graphics will reinforce the idea that the Wii is weak, which, combined with your selection of games results in something that says to the "haters" - "hey, you were right."
subrosian

So Dewy's Adventure, DQ Swords and de Blob aren't 'hardcore' enough for you? By this logic you could trash on any game. I could say that Half-Life 2 is not 'hardcore'. Don't agree? Well, obviously, you're also not hardcore, therefore your opinion is invalid. Your argument is unbreakable because you define the key group as those who share your opinion, therefore as soon as someone disagrees with you they are out of the group.

Rather than putting words into your mouth, I'd like to hear from you. What makes DQ Swords, Dewy's, de Blob and Project HAMMER not 'hardcore' enough for your tastes?

YOU'RE STILL DOING IT!! You say 'our taste' but you mean 'my taste'. Unless you're an account run by a conglomerate then you are only speaking for yourself. But somehow you go from YOUR taste in games to the tastes of ALL CORE GAMERS, thus excluding me from the core gamers because I do not agree with you. Which is exactly what I was talking about in the first place.

As for DQ Swords, you couldn't be more wrong about it. The individual levels may be on rails but there are still multiple paths to choose from, and furthermore you can move freely in towns and on the world map. The fact that it is cartoonish has nothing to do with whether it is aimed at core gamers. Perhaps you don't like cartoonish games, but believe it or not, that doesn't automatically make them casual. Hack-and-slash? So now you're consigning an entire genre of games to being casual? Just because a game is hack and slash it's not hardcore enough for you? What the hell do you like to play, Microsoft Excel?

As for the last paragraph of your post, my intention was never to convince your wannabe hardcore bunch to buy a wii. What kind of goldfish would you be to shell out $250 over a single forum topic? The point of the thread is to show that the wii still offers a huge amount to a non-casual gamer. I say non-casual because the definition of the word hardcore is slipping all over the place.

You have created this elite group of 'core' or 'hardcore' gamers, who for some reason are better than everyone else. With your powers of hardcore-ness, you have the ability to decide whether a game is 'casual' (bad) or 'hardcore' (good). But in actual fact you are no better than any other gamer. 'Hardcore' gamers who trash on nintendo for being casual are no better than 'cool' gamers who trash on nintendo for being kiddy. You're just a little more subtle about it, and use longer sentences.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

There's a certain degree of validity to that. If you're trying to take on my viewpoint on the Wii, you need to do it with games that cater to my taste - not games that cater to the taste you're telling me I should have. You can't say "we're showing the hardcore gamer how great we are" by showcasing games only Wii fans are into - study the audience you're trying to impress.

When I want to show a Wii fan why the PC is great, I'll show them a game like Psychonauts - at the very least have the courtesy to pretend to understand the hardcore audience enough not to try and shove Dewy's Adventure, de Blob, Dragon Quest: Swords, or Project HAMMER down our throats - these *aren't* titles hardcore gamers consider to be hardcore - if Nintendo fans do, fine, but consider who you're marketing to.

What you've done here TC is create a post that's a rallying cry for people who are *already* fans of the Wii, and completely failed to capitalize on your goal of showing people who are "Wii haters" that they're wrong. If anything, the poor choice of using screenshots for a system that's strengths *do not* lie in graphics will reinforce the idea that the Wii is weak, which, combined with your selection of games results in something that says to the "haters" - "hey, you were right."
WeeWeeJumbo

Subrosian: eloquent and concise; I expect no less from you.

Chutup: remember when I told you this would happen?

no actually I logged off before you posted that, but your 'warning' was just as smug and elitist as all your other posts.

When was it that people could call these kinds of games "hardcore"?

Starcraft, Counter-Strike, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Company of Heroes, Warcraft, Virtua Fighter, etc. These are hardcore games. You can't just pick them up and be as good as everyone else. There's more to them than just graphics or gameplay, there's strategy, skill, underlying and deeper mechanics and real competition.

I never thought there would be a day when someone would be able to put a list like this up and not have everyone laugh at them.

When was it that people could call these kinds of games "hardcore"?

Starcraft, Counter-Strike, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Company of Heroes, Warcraft, Virtua Fighter, etc. These are hardcore games. You can't just pick them up and be as good as everyone else. There's more to them than just graphics or gameplay, there's strategy, skill, underlying and deeper mechanics and real competition.

I never thought there would be a day when someone would be able to put a list like this up and not have everyone laugh at them.

Thompsonwhore

The problem here is that the word hardcore has come to have too many meanings. I too would have previously said that hardcore games are ones like those you listed. But since E3, to most people there is no gap between 'hardcore' and 'casual'. You are either hardcore or casual or non-gamer. There is no room to be just a normal gamer. So when I said hardcore in my first post, I was using the word the same way the wii haters use it.

[QUOTE="WeeWeeJumbo"]

Chutup: remember when I told you this would happen?

chutup

no actually I logged off before you posted that, but your 'warning' was just as smug and elitist as all your other posts.

If I didn't know better, I might wonder if maybe you don't like me :( But, as usual, I was right. Who's agreeing with you, in this thread? The Nintendo Wii faithful. Who's disagreeing with you? The hardcores. That's what I said would happen, and lo and behold, it's happening.

Now you attempt to disparage the tastes of the hardcores when they (predictably) find the list wholly unimpressive (Disaster: Day of Crisis? Project H.A.M.M.E.R.? Dewy's Adventure? It's rude to laugh in somebody's face, so I'll refrain--but that's the only reason why I'll refrain). Hey, it's not so bad: the hardcores are a minority in the gaming world, Wii is a smashing success, and as a result, it can expect to see better third-party support than Nintendo has seen in many moons. Given the kind of game Killer7 turned out to be (thematically at least), No More Heroes looks like it will sidestep the dreaded Nintendo "kiddy" template.

It still looks like Wii will never be the hardcore gamer's system of choice, and this thread only strengthens that argument.

The problem here is that the word hardcore has come to have too many meanings. I too would have previously said that hardcore games are ones like those you listed. But since E3, to most people there is no gap between 'hardcore' and 'casual'. You are either hardcore or casual or non-gamer. There is no room to be just a normal gamer. So when I said hardcore in my first post, I was using the word the same way the wii haters use it.

chutup

Nintendo deserves a good part of the blame for creating this divide, while other consoles had lots of these games those who sincerely enjoyed them were generally considered to have poor taste or to be kids and while that was awfully harsh on our point it worked. We laughed, we made some jokes and moved on.

Then Nintendo came up with the Wii and developed and marketed it seemingly entirely around this other subset of gamers who were EXACTLY THE SAME PEOPLE everyone had laughed at and mocked earlier. That created this entirely new black and white divide between the online gaming communities, those who liked Nintendo and wanted to defend them or actually liked some of the ideas coming out of Nintendo and those who considered the whole thing an elaborate joke or a sell-out on their part (such as me).

So now you have people regularly arguing over what exactly hardcore IS because Nintendo has wedged into this online hardcore gaming community and changed some people's ideas of what hardcore is or if you can even qualify it, when before it was mostly a non-issue.

[QUOTE="Thompsonwhore"]

When was it that people could call these kinds of games "hardcore"?

Starcraft, Counter-Strike, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Company of Heroes, Warcraft, Virtua Fighter, etc. These are hardcore games. You can't just pick them up and be as good as everyone else. There's more to them than just graphics or gameplay, there's strategy, skill, underlying and deeper mechanics and real competition.

I never thought there would be a day when someone would be able to put a list like this up and not have everyone laugh at them.

chutup

The problem here is that the word hardcore has come to have too many meanings. I too would have previously said that hardcore games are ones like those you listed. But since E3, to most people there is no gap between 'hardcore' and 'casual'. You are either hardcore or casual or non-gamer. There is no room to be just a normal gamer. So when I said hardcore in my first post, I was using the word the same way the wii haters use it.

Well then, those people are a casual gamer. Frankly, I think all this branding is rediculous. To me, there's only hardcore and everyone else is a "casual", for lack of a better word. Halo isn't all that much more hardcore of a game over whatever the Wii has to offer. It's probably the most casual shooter there is.

And then you have a game like Quake III. I don't even think I need to explain.

Consoles have very few hardcore games. I mean, the system itself was made for ease of use and a wide audience, regardless of what system it is.

[QUOTE="chutup"][QUOTE="WeeWeeJumbo"]

Chutup: remember when I told you this would happen?

WeeWeeJumbo

no actually I logged off before you posted that, but your 'warning' was just as smug and elitist as all your other posts.

If I didn't know better, I might wonder if maybe you don't like me :( But, as usual, I was right. Who's agreeing with you, in this thread? The Nintendo Wii faithful. Who's disagreeing with you? The hardcores. That's what I said would happen, and lo and behold, it's happening.

Now you attempt to disparage the tastes of the hardcores when they (predictably) find the list wholly unimpressive (Disaster: Day of Crisis? Project H.A.M.M.E.R.? Dewy's Adventure? It's rude to laugh in somebody's face, so I'll refrain--but that's the only reason why I'll refrain). Hey, it's not so bad: the hardcores are a minority in the gaming world, Wii is a smashing success, and as a result, it can expect to see better third-party support than Nintendo has seen in many moons. Given the kind of game Killer7 turned out to be (thematically at least), No More Heroes looks like it will sidestep the dreaded Nintendo "kiddy" template.

It still looks like Wii will never be the hardcore gamer's system of choice, and this thread only strengthens that argument.

What do You mean with hardcore? The people who play games that only a small amount of people can play? Because that's basically the definition of bad games and i wouldn't care much about the gamers so willing to keep fun to themselves and focussed on beating everyone else and not open to having fun in other ways.
If so, it would release a lot of tension and i could proudly say i'm in no way hardcore.

Why MUST people automatically people assume that Zack & Wiki and Dewy's Adventure are casual shovelware? Sheesh, how narrowminded can you get? If Halo 3, CoD4, Killzone 2, Haze, Crysis is hardcore as it gets, then I'm proud to say that I'm not a hardcore gamer anymore.Eponique

I don't, I'm pleasantly intrigued by Zack & Wiki but unfortunately thats the exception, not the rule here.

What do You mean with hardcore? The people who play games that only a small amount of people can play? Because that's basically the definition of bad games and i wouldn't care much about the gamers so willing to keep fun to themselves and focussed on beating everyone else and not open to having fun in other ways.
If so, it would release a lot of tension and i could proudly say i'm in no way hardcore.

KungfuKitten

I'll certainly concede that the word "hardcore" is a contentious subject among gamers, because a lot of people use it when they are trying to condescend to the tastes of other gamers. But let me throw some examples at you, considering what you've said.

Ninja Gaiden 2, Mass Effect, and StarCraft 2 are guaranteed hardcore games on the way. Do you think they will be bad games? Do you argue that they won't be fun? They won't be accessible to non-gamers; does that mean you won't care about them? Do you see the difference between those games and, say, Dragon Quest Swords? Dewy's Adventure? I'll give you a hint, that difference is not really about DQS' and DA's colorful graphics. It's fine for you not to be hardcore, it doesn't say anything bad about you; it implies that Nintendo's Wii holds a lot of appeal for you, and I'm glad for you. However, it holds zero interest for me, and a lot of people who feel the way I do. That's all.

[QUOTE="chutup"][QUOTE="WeeWeeJumbo"]

Chutup: remember when I told you this would happen?

WeeWeeJumbo

no actually I logged off before you posted that, but your 'warning' was just as smug and elitist as all your other posts.

If I didn't know better, I might wonder if maybe you don't like me :( But, as usual, I was right. Who's agreeing with you, in this thread? The Nintendo Wii faithful. Who's disagreeing with you? The hardcores. That's what I said would happen, and lo and behold, it's happening.

Now you attempt to disparage the tastes of the hardcores when they (predictably) find the list wholly unimpressive (Disaster: Day of Crisis? Project H.A.M.M.E.R.? Dewy's Adventure? It's rude to laugh in somebody's face, so I'll refrain--but that's the only reason why I'll refrain). Hey, it's not so bad: the hardcores are a minority in the gaming world, Wii is a smashing success, and as a result, it can expect to see better third-party support than Nintendo has seen in many moons. Given the kind of game Killer7 turned out to be (thematically at least), No More Heroes looks like it will sidestep the dreaded Nintendo "kiddy" template.

It still looks like Wii will never be the hardcore gamer's system of choice, and this thread only strengthens that argument.

well, at least you haven't changed much since we last met, weeweejumbo. Who's disagreeing with me? The hardcores, you say? But you define hardcores as people who don't like the wii, so of course the 'hardcores' would disagree with me.

Then you go on to just pick games at random and 'laugh' at them, to make out that you actually know something about these games that makes them bad. Of course, even if you told me, I wouldn't understand, because I'm not a 'hardcore'.

"Hardcores are a minority in the gaming world". Damn right your 'hardcores' are a minority, since they include only the people who agree with you. So what, in the end, is so great about hardcores anyway? There aren't many of them, so they don't affect sales. They don't seem to know any better than any other gamer since they turn their noses up at amazing games like SSBB and No More Heroes. Oh yeah, and they're completely certain that they are the best c.lass of gamer, and everybody else's opinions are inferior.

If it's casual to enjoy a simple and innovative game like Dewy's Adventure or de Blob, then I'm a casual. If it's casual to find a game more immersive and enjoyable because you're actually mimicking the actions you want your character to perform, then I'm a casual. If it's casual to not want to invest hundreds of hours in a game getting good enough to beat people online who I don't even know or care about, I'm casual.

If you would get your head out of your own *ahem* nostril for a moment, you would see that by taking this elitist stance, all you're doing is missing out on a heap of fun games. Somewhere along the way, you forgot that gaming is about having fun, and now you play games for some other reason entirely.

Great list and good job, TC.

[QUOTE="chutup"][QUOTE="Thompsonwhore"]

When was it that people could call these kinds of games "hardcore"?

Starcraft, Counter-Strike, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Company of Heroes, Warcraft, Virtua Fighter, etc. These are hardcore games. You can't just pick them up and be as good as everyone else. There's more to them than just graphics or gameplay, there's strategy, skill, underlying and deeper mechanics and real competition.

I never thought there would be a day when someone would be able to put a list like this up and not have everyone laugh at them.

Thompsonwhore

The problem here is that the word hardcore has come to have too many meanings. I too would have previously said that hardcore games are ones like those you listed. But since E3, to most people there is no gap between 'hardcore' and 'casual'. You are either hardcore or casual or non-gamer. There is no room to be just a normal gamer. So when I said hardcore in my first post, I was using the word the same way the wii haters use it.

Well then, those people are a casual gamer. Frankly, I think all this branding is rediculous. To me, there's only hardcore and everyone else is a "casual", for lack of a better word. Halo isn't all that much more hardcore of a game over whatever the Wii has to offer. It's probably the most casual shooter there is.

And then you have a game like Quake III. I don't even think I need to explain.

Consoles have very few hardcore games. I mean, the system itself was made for ease of use and a wide audience, regardless of what system it is.

No, please do. Do you mean that Quake III is hardcore, or it isn't? And if so, why?

Great list and good job, TC.

DA_B0MB

Why thank you.

[QUOTE="Thompsonwhore"][QUOTE="chutup"][QUOTE="Thompsonwhore"]

When was it that people could call these kinds of games "hardcore"?

Starcraft, Counter-Strike, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Company of Heroes, Warcraft, Virtua Fighter, etc. These are hardcore games. You can't just pick them up and be as good as everyone else. There's more to them than just graphics or gameplay, there's strategy, skill, underlying and deeper mechanics and real competition.

I never thought there would be a day when someone would be able to put a list like this up and not have everyone laugh at them.

chutup

The problem here is that the word hardcore has come to have too many meanings. I too would have previously said that hardcore games are ones like those you listed. But since E3, to most people there is no gap between 'hardcore' and 'casual'. You are either hardcore or casual or non-gamer. There is no room to be just a normal gamer. So when I said hardcore in my first post, I was using the word the same way the wii haters use it.

Well then, those people are a casual gamer. Frankly, I think all this branding is rediculous. To me, there's only hardcore and everyone else is a "casual", for lack of a better word. Halo isn't all that much more hardcore of a game over whatever the Wii has to offer. It's probably the most casual shooter there is.

And then you have a game like Quake III. I don't even think I need to explain.

Consoles have very few hardcore games. I mean, the system itself was made for ease of use and a wide audience, regardless of what system it is.

No, please do. Do you mean that Quake III is hardcore, or it isn't? And if so, why?

I mean that Quake III is the hardest of the hardcore along with games like the ones I listed.

[QUOTE="chutup"][QUOTE="Thompsonwhore"][QUOTE="chutup"]

The problem here is that the word hardcore has come to have too many meanings. I too would have previously said that hardcore games are ones like those you listed. But since E3, to most people there is no gap between 'hardcore' and 'casual'. You are either hardcore or casual or non-gamer. There is no room to be just a normal gamer. So when I said hardcore in my first post, I was using the word the same way the wii haters use it.

Thompsonwhore

Well then, those people are a casual gamer. Frankly, I think all this branding is rediculous. To me, there's only hardcore and everyone else is a "casual", for lack of a better word. Halo isn't all that much more hardcore of a game over whatever the Wii has to offer. It's probably the most casual shooter there is.

And then you have a game like Quake III. I don't even think I need to explain.

Consoles have very few hardcore games. I mean, the system itself was made for ease of use and a wide audience, regardless of what system it is.

No, please do. Do you mean that Quake III is hardcore, or it isn't? And if so, why?

I mean that Quake III is the hardest of the hardcore along with games like the ones I listed.

So why is it hardcore? Is it just because it's difficult? Is there a lot of depth to the gameplay? (from what I hear of Quake series I would guess not) Is it just because it has online multiplayer with lots of good players?

So why is it hardcore? Is it just because it's difficult? Is there a lot of depth to the gameplay? (from what I hear of Quake series I would guess not) Is it just because it has online multiplayer with lots of good players?chutup

Well I don't know who you hear from that there isn't depth to the game, because they are tragically misinformed.

But the other examples you gave are exactly why. It has a relatively large learning curve, depth, great mulitplayer and competition (it's multiplayer only) and is one of the best shooters ever made. There's a reason why all the international gaming leagues have or had Quake III as one of their featured events.

[QUOTE="chutup"]

Chutup: remember when I told you this would happen?

WeeWeeJumbo

well, at least you haven't changed much since we last met, weeweejumbo. Who's disagreeing with me? The hardcores, you say? But you define hardcores as people who don't like the wii, so of course the 'hardcores' would disagree with me.

Then you go on to just pick games at random and 'laugh' at them, to make out that you actually know something about these games that makes them bad. Of course, even if you told me, I wouldn't understand, because I'm not a 'hardcore'.

"Hardcores are a minority in the gaming world". Damn right your 'hardcores' are a minority, since they include only the people who agree with you. So what, in the end, is so great about hardcores anyway? There aren't many of them, so they don't affect sales. They don't seem to know any better than any other gamer since they turn their noses up at amazing games like SSBB and No More Heroes. Oh yeah, and they're completely certain that they are the best c.lass of gamer, and everybody else's opinions are inferior.

If it's casual to enjoy a simple and innovative game like Dewy's Adventure or de Blob, then I'm a casual. If it's casual to find a game more immersive and enjoyable because you're actually mimicking the actions you want your character to perform, then I'm a casual. If it's casual to not want to invest hundreds of hours in a game getting good enough to beat people online who I don't even know or care about, I'm casual.

If you would get your head out of your own *ahem* nostril for a moment, you would see that by taking this elitist stance, all you're doing is missing out on a heap of fun games. Somewhere along the way, you forgot that gaming is about having fun, and now you play games for some other reason entirely.

So they are 'my' hardcores, now? OK, if you say so. Look, are you confusing me with somebody else? I never said that hardcores turn their noses up at Smash Brothers. In fact, in the last thread where we discussed this, linked in the post quoted at the top if this one, I agreed that there will be some games appealing to hardcores on the Wii. It's not an everything-or-nothing kind of choice. Which old-school Nintendo gamer can deny being excited about Mario Galaxy? It's a real Mario adventure, for chrissakes.

What I said, and have said before, and am saying now, is that Wii offers much less to hardcore gamers than the other consoles do. Wii fans are in general interested in a different kind of game than, say, 360, PS3, or PC fans. Is there some overlap? Of course. Lots of hardcores have Wii as a backup for when they want something a little less demanding, something that does a better job of relieving stress; you don't play a game like Bioshock to unwind. Nonetheless Wii's current library and its upcoming games appear, to most hardcores, to be a lot of filler and a tiny helping of deep, meaty, rich, rewarding games, of the type that these hardcores really like to play.

Nobody said that hardcores are the best sort of gamer; do you fear the judgment of hardcores, or something? I think that's called 'projecting.' Notice that I'm not saying that you need to stop being interested in Wii, although interestingly, you seem to be telling me what kind of games I should be interested in, which is presumptuous beyond belief. Go ahead and enjoy your casual-, non-gamer-focused games; in my way I'm glad to see Nintendo riding high in the saddle again, at last. They are finally beginning to undo the damage they did themselves by foolishly going with cartridges for the N64. Kudos to them, hooray for you. It's pointless though, for you to tell me that something is wrong with me because I am uninterested in the bulk of their offerings. What, do you think I don't do as much research as you? That I'm not as well-informed? Don't you see how high are the odds that you're completely wrong about that?

What's for sure is that the argument from sales is simply not related to quality. 50 Cent: Bulletproof is the perennial example. Big sales. Massive casual appeal, like most license-games. High quality? Negative.

Well I don't know who you hear from that there isn't depth to the game, because they are tragically misinformed.

But the other examples you gave are exactly why. It has a relatively large learning curve, depth, great mulitplayer and competition (it's multiplayer only) and is one of the best shooters ever made. There's a reason why all the international gaming leagues have or had Quake III as one of their featured events.

Thompsonwhore

Didn't you get the memo? Q3 is casual because it's a shooter, and by extension it's also shallow, uninspired and boring. Worse yet, it has no waggle! Pssh!

[QUOTE="WeeWeeJumbo"][QUOTE="chutup"]

Chutup: remember when I told you this would happen?

WeeWeeJumbo

well, at least you haven't changed much since we last met, weeweejumbo. Who's disagreeing with me? The hardcores, you say? But you define hardcores as people who don't like the wii, so of course the 'hardcores' would disagree with me.

Then you go on to just pick games at random and 'laugh' at them, to make out that you actually know something about these games that makes them bad. Of course, even if you told me, I wouldn't understand, because I'm not a 'hardcore'.

"Hardcores are a minority in the gaming world". Damn right your 'hardcores' are a minority, since they include only the people who agree with you. So what, in the end, is so great about hardcores anyway? There aren't many of them, so they don't affect sales. They don't seem to know any better than any other gamer since they turn their noses up at amazing games like SSBB and No More Heroes. Oh yeah, and they're completely certain that they are the best c.lass of gamer, and everybody else's opinions are inferior.

If it's casual to enjoy a simple and innovative game like Dewy's Adventure or de Blob, then I'm a casual. If it's casual to find a game more immersive and enjoyable because you're actually mimicking the actions you want your character to perform, then I'm a casual. If it's casual to not want to invest hundreds of hours in a game getting good enough to beat people online who I don't even know or care about, I'm casual.

If you would get your head out of your own *ahem* nostril for a moment, you would see that by taking this elitist stance, all you're doing is missing out on a heap of fun games. Somewhere along the way, you forgot that gaming is about having fun, and now you play games for some other reason entirely.

So they are 'my' hardcores, now? OK, if you say so. Look, are you confusing me with somebody else? I never said that hardcores turn their noses up at Smash Brothers. In fact, in the last thread where we discussed this, linked in the post quoted at the top if this one, I agreed that there will be some games appealing to hardcores on the Wii. It's not an everything-or-nothing kind of choice. Which old-school Nintendo gamer can deny being excited about Mario Galaxy? It's a real Mario adventure, for chrissakes.

What I said, and have said before, and am saying now, is that Wii offers much less to hardcore gamers than the other consoles do. Wii fans are in general interested in a different kind of game than, say, 360, PS3, or PC fans. Is there some overlap? Of course. Lots of hardcores have Wii as a backup for when they want something a little less demanding, something that does a better job of relieving stress; you don't play a game like Bioshock to unwind. Nonetheless Wii's current library and its upcoming games appear, to most hardcores, to be a lot of filler and a tiny helping of deep, meaty, rich, rewarding games, of the type that these hardcores really like to play.

Nobody said that hardcores are the best sort of gamer; do you fear the judgment of hardcores, or something? I think that's called 'projecting.' Notice that I'm not saying that you need to stop being interested in Wii, although interestingly, you seem to be telling me what kind of games I should be interested in, which is presumptuous beyond belief. Go ahead and enjoy your casual-, non-gamer-focused games; in my way I'm glad to see Nintendo riding high in the saddle again, at last. They are finally beginning to undo the damage they did themselves by foolishly going with cartridges for the N64. Kudos to them, hooray for you. It's pointless though, for you to tell me that something is wrong with me because I am uninterested in the bulk of their offerings. What, do you think I don't do as much research as you? That I'm not as well-informed? Don't you see how high are the odds that you're completely wrong about that?

What's for sure is that the argument from sales is simply not related to quality. 50 Cent: Bulletproof is the perennial example. Big sales. Massive casual appeal, like most license-games. High quality? Negative.

OK. You know what, peace. End argument. You have fun with hardcore games, I'll have fun with...er, casual games. As long as neither of us tells the other what we should enjoy, that's fine. I don't mind if a game isn't particularly deep or challenging. For example Okami is my favourite game of all time, and it was so easy I only died once through the whole game. If you prefer games that are like that, OK.

But I still have a beef with the many other posters who tell me that nintendo is ruining gaming, or that they don't care about true gamers. Ah well, that's the way with System Wars - for every truce, ten thousand battles.

5. Project HAMMER

10. Dewy's Adventure

13. Soul Calibur Legends

14.Dragon Blade: Wrath of Fire

15. de Blob

19. Dragon Quest Swords: The Masked Queen and the Tower of Mirrors

20. Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles

chutup