How could MS miss judge what people wanted so bad.?

Really the PS4 also has netflix and guess what you don't have to pay a second fee to use it,and netflix on PS3 was actually superior quality wise to the xbox 360 version,and was free of a paywall.

Yeah that is why the PS4 is beating the xbox one in pre-orders because normal people can't make a good choice only forum dwellers can,what benefits.? weaker hardware more expensive everything locked away under a pay wall.?

If there is a console that should give all features free if the xbox one,is $100 more while been weaker,and live gold doesn't have games like PSN+ in any way,yet again it is the PS4 the one with all the features open,you can't even record your game if you don't pay for xbox live,i wonder if saving your game will also be behind a damn pay wall,MS outdated policies are a joke and is the reason why people complained.

Many big companies make bad decisions...

Luckily for MS they really have deep pockets that compensate their failures which cost them billions of $$$

Being on top sometimes makes a company become arrogant and they loose sight of trends and fail to identify what consumers want..

However MS has a history of failing with various products like the few examples below..

Microsoft Windows mobile / OS

Zune

Microsoft Kin

MS Ultra mobile PC

Windows ME / VIsta (and other versions depending on personal opinions)

MS Mira

Smartwatch

and so on.. But in here we should mainly discuss gaming and Microsoft surely managed to expand their market share with the Xbox360 and surely will work hard to continue with the XB1..

Pre-orders selling out without actual number mean little,MS had yield issues with the units and for months it has been know that they will have way less supply than sony,sony will release in 32 countries this year,while MS only in 13 is not even close,so yeah they sold out those 500,000 xbox one,while sony is way over 1 million units already.

Without actual numbers it means nothing,MS could have 300K for launch and that been the reason for the sold out,in fact sony claimed more than 1 million pre-orders where is MS claiming the same or close.?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/2013/videogames

Best selling of 2013 so far...

Look at the PS4 it has 4 different bundle on the top 100 best,including number 8 which is actually ahead of the xbox one only bundle at number 11,so not only the PS4 has a better placed sku,it has 3 more sku on that same top 100,while only 1 sku of the xbox one is on the top 100.

Is not even close apparently sales wise.

1) I didnt say people on forums make bad decisions did I? 2) I never said the PS4 wasnt leading in pre orders (lol @preorder wars) You seem to be repeating a lot of your points...I think we all understand your not going to buy an X1 buddy, but its not to say that other people will not. I just explained my own personal reasons for not purchasing a PS4. Its not an attack on your or SONY.

For me its a choice between a dull and uninspired console with a slight edge in specification which may or may not be utilised (see teh cell).

Or a console which meets the needs of my entire family unit. You can throw all the specifications and pay walls you like at me but the fact remains that for my own personal needs MS have created the better product. I will happily pay extra £££ for the kinect. I also appreciate why you wouldnt want to if you dont use it. I dont know why you get so wound up about it. The fact remains that personal preference dictates which product to buy, no amount of you spewing anti MS venom is going to miraculously change people minds.

Miss Judge is a sassy gal.

Sassy, but always grammatically correct.

Pre-orders wars.? Not really but pre-orders show intentions to buy something,far more on PS4 than on xbox one,so apparently that line up is not as dull and uninspired for many as you may think,or the xbox one look weak to some or basically they don't care about the xbox extra features like camera for $100 more.

Yeah that is probably why the PS4 is ahead more people prefer it over the xbox one,so maybe their choices are not very inline with yours..

I know mine aren't i don't plan to get an xbox one for a long time,there is no need to,the xbox 360 was powerful cheap,the xbox one is weak and over priced and to do anything you have to pay extra, no thanks.

They were busy pleasing their closest circle of demanding people: shareholders, the government, marketing companies to sell information to, bosses. Customers are assumed to fall in line because they are not very demanding. It's the same type of reasoning as phone companies have. I don't think that 'what the people want' was even a part of the design process anymore.

@TheKingIAm:

A men, on Zune. Still love mine. Now unlike the others here, I don't believe any company cares about "its fans". The notion that companies have fans is effin stupid imo. They have customers. Some like Davekeeh thinks Sony cares about him, and well I hope SOMEONE does. I think MS really saw where console gaming is going to go. There already has been a market for downloadable games this past gen. I own over 40 digital titles between my PS3 and 360. But forcing it on the consumer base was a bad move. It will slowly happen, but that will be the consumers choice. As for how will it effect the X1 launch? The MS store is sold out, the walmart and gamestop stores are sold out here by Ft. Sill, so I think this console will sell. They wont match Sony's world wide numbers, and don't think they care.

If they did not care about sales the policies would still remain intact,and they would not be money hatting DF to make article about how an 1.18TF console is = to one with 1.84 TF based on out of this world theories and wishful thinking.

How would Sony gain that smartness you speak of? Could it be from facing backlash for the $600 price of PS3? Or the DRE fiasco of PS2? You gotta fall down in order to learn and it was school's open for MS, where as Sony, being in this longer had the sense of experience. Better question: Who effin cares? Both consoles will have great games over the next few years and I'm playing them, not fanboy favorites. But, you go ahead and have at it.

The PS3 was $600 while been a damn Blu-ray player,the xbox was cheap DVD and was $400,blu-ray alone on 206 was $1,000 stand alone,so yeah for $600 the PS3 was a console and blu-ray player that else where was $1,400 so yeah even that the PS3 was expensive it was hardware that worth the price.

And the original xbox also had DRE dude where in hell were you on the PS2 generation,in fact thompsom drives on the xbox were the worse ones several millions of those were made,but every optical drive suffer from DRE,from PC to DC to PS,to GC to xbox 360 and PS3,the PS2 was so common because the damn PS2 sold like no other console ever sold,even so it was small compare to RROD and how much it cost MS.

This is not about learning from pass mistakes has MS blocked used games before.?

Has MS make an online only console that need checks every 24 hours.?

No they don't have,this is about MS taking some measures that were totally anti consumer,hearing about people complain of those things and ignoring them.

Apparently allot of people do care if we go by pre-orders and polls out there.

@tormentos: When you can dupe people into paying $60 a year just to access a feature on a disc they already paid for...you start to think they'll do whatever you say.

THIS!! Anything else anyone says is false. MS is about making as much money as they think they can get away with.

hmmm you mean how sony is now charging for online?

I think there were many factors. For one, I think they thought Sony would follow suit as I'm sure 3rd party companies had approached Sony on this as well. I think M$ had everything already in place, whereas Sony had everything in the background waiting to see if the public would accept these new policies. Also Microsoft probably looked at STEAM, XBL, PSN and saw how much gamers embraced the DD world without much negative feedback and felt everyone would accept this. Where they failed was having physical retail games. If they wanted to go the DRM DD route, then needed to scrap physical disks completely, put a 2TB HDD in their system, and release ALL their DD games for $30 or less. I'm sure publishers and developers didn't want this, especially with a launch just before Black Friday and knowing everyone would be in retail stores and with no physcal XB1 games on shelves, that wouldn't be good. So M$ went with the compromise, which was good for publishers/developers, but completely terrible for consumers. They tired to have their cake and eat it too with ice cream and everyone revolted.

As long as M$ continues to churn out exclusive after exclusive AAA games for the XB1, all of these policies issues will be mostly forgotten within a year or two. Only people who will be bringing it up are bias fanboys.

Pretty much this. Sony wanted to sell Blu Ray players and showcase the Cell processor and used the PS3 help fight HD-DVD. Had little to do with games.

If they had offered an offline mode and effectively conveyed how all-digital delivery results in rapid software price drops like the deals we see on Steam, things could have been really swell for Microsoft and Xbox One owners alike.

@tormentos:

TRUE

1: true the publisher has the control. ms blame who? MS put in the system. up to them use it. IF they use it then ya blame the publishers...

2: sony has the same system in place. up to the publisher. SORRY... They even filed for a patent that a console can link a disc to only play on that console

3: kinect came out late 2010. just about 5 years after release. 25 million sales is huge for a add on! How many games even get that amount of sales? This time kinect is built around the xbox from day one

4: lol ha sony blocked you from hulu on web browser? lol

Double standards much? You in this case justify the $600 which was for something that didn't have much to do with gaming. It was for TV, watching movies.

They didnt miss judge anything... They are marketing the xbox for just about anyone, even non gamers. They dont care who they sell the xbox to, as long as they get it in people's homes.

And burn. Well said.

@tormentos:

According to the report you are talking about, the XBOX ONE had around 800K preorders, while the PS4 had nearly 1.5 million. That was apparently a Gamestop report, that I believe was later denied by a GS rep. I do know that back in early July MS announced that the XBOX ONE had double the preorders of the XBOX360. The XBOX360 sold 1.5 million units in 2005 (a month and a week on the market and I believe half of those 1.5 million were preorders). This means the XBOX ONE back in July already had 1.5 million preorders and that was from the horses mouth so your 300K assumption makes me laugh. MS also announced that they expect to sell around 7 million units by end of June 2014 so I do believe MS has a little more knowledge about their own products than you.

There is no telling how many preorders the XBOX ONE has now. I would guesstimate that it has well over 3 million considering the amount of times MS has refilled their preorders (they just recently did it again for GS that lasted all of about 1 hour before it was sold out again).

I know this must be killing MS and XBOX ONE haters. A $500 system selling so well. Goes to show the little bubble gamers lives in is just that. Small and means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things. I fingered they would have learned that already with the Wii and how great in sold. Of course the XBOX ONE is catering to every one, not just the casual.

maybe you don't know this but games were on blu-ray. PS3 doesn't has a single game on multiple discs nor it had games like Rage that suffered on the X360 due to so much texture compression. We enjoyed pre-rendered scenes at much higher quality than any Xbox game and way higher Audio quality too.

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/08/01/john-carmack-says-blu-ray-offers-better-graphics/

Every company has fail products, Microsoft being the biggest will have quite a few. You have listed some from ages ago. In the same period they have had plenty of success. Everyone gets it wrong at some point.

Xbox One was too far forward thinking with the original policies. The ability to share, trade and sell digital games online was awesome and had they done it properly would have been a game changer. The public wasnt ready, give it 5 years and everyone will be doing it and Disc's will be a thing of the past. They did the right thing and changed. arrogance would have been to carry on regardless.

They didn't misjudge anything. They just played their cards wrong because Sony was originally going to do the same thing. If they wanted this to go through they should have shut their mouths. That's basically all they screwed up on.

@WilliamRLBaker:

Only after 3 consoles without charging. MS has always charged. And that's nothing to the amount of crap MS has pulled on their consumers.

360 was a huge success for MS, Xbox got established as a powerful brand in the console world this gen, so they got arrogant.

Same thing as Sony after the PS2 success, really.

In what ways is it better than the PS4 tho??? what features, as far as i can tell they both have the same, Online??? this cannot be judged as they haven't come out yet, Games well you ain't been around long enough to know microsoft have a small first party companies, and mostly buy dlc's and timed exclusives, sony beat microsoft hands down when it comes to games so thats not one. Cloud well they both have cloud gaming and non of it is proven yet. at least back up what your saying with facts

@WilliamRLBaker:

MS doing really well with the 360 has caused Sony to figure out ways to get people in America to buy their console more. MS being successful in America makes them arrogant and is bad for gaming. Sony will be forced to do similar crappy policies to gamers in order to be competitive if MS continues to dominate in America. Sony finally started to charge for online gaming with PS4 in order to compete.

MS winning in America = bad for gaming. Sony winning in America = good for gaming.

If you want to innovate you have to take risk. Giving people what they want is usually the absence of innovation, since 'the people' normally want version 1.1 of what they already have. Therein lies the risk, since your vision of innovation may not resonate with enough of 'the people'.

Your comment is completely irrelevant because all these sales figures you are talking about are POST 180. MS pretty much changed all the major plans they had initially instated for their console, because of the major backlash, so yes, now they are on better terms but that doesn't change the fact that they some how made a major error (hence the 180s). Anyways, back to what the TC is saying, I don't think it was so much an issue of what people wanted, but a matter of arrogance and lack of communication. If MS had been more open and concise about their plan and let people understand their vision, they may have gotten a better reaction. Unfortunately all we got was a bunch of misinformation floating a round, and MS making it worse by different reps making contradictory statements without any form of clarification to be found. Then to top it off, MS got really unlucky when the entire NSA PRISM scheme was leaked. That pretty much made their always online, always connected, always watching Kinect a major NO NO.

Yay and the people of the internet continue to act like their opinion is fact...

MS didn't miss judge what I wanted. The Xbox One is the console I'm getting.

I like:

-Exclusives

-Xbox Live Online service (Azure powered cloud/full dedicated servers)

-Controller

-Kinect

MS made me, and a large amount of people quite happy with the XB1.

i just think they were totally out of touch with the user base and did not listen to anyone at all

I agree that to innovate, one must take a risk, but I disagree with the notion that somehow what people want and innovation are mutually exclusive. Sure, you can innovate by making what people don't want and you'll end up being broke. A modern example of "innovation" would be the Steambox controller. People always asked for more precision in console gaming, so that's something that people wanted. The innovation comes in how Valve went about getting that result. Now will it be successful or not? That all depends on ease of use and functionality, but the new Steambox controller is a perfect example of taking a risk while striving towards a features that people have shown interest in. MS, on the other hand, went completely in the wrong direction. They tried to innovate by enforcing features people completely hate and want none of (DRM). That's stupid innovation and a sure fire way to crash and burn as MS realized, hence the 180s.

They're a greedy douchebag corporation who care little for the people that fund them. They misjudged so horribly because they're only thinking of ways to make far more money than they did last gen. Luckily there are alternatives to their dickishness.

@jer_1:

Still not as bad a the lying, backstabbing Sony.

actually the always online requirement came as a result of their damage control over the no used game thing, because gamers were to install on the HDD to make their experience discless with rights tied to a user account, just like a PC game, whereafter it could be played offline, there wasn't supposed to be a used game system, and games could be played remotely on other systems through the use of the owner XBL account (that would require always online, which pretty much is how it works now)

it's quite obvious that the always online requirement came about as a solution to allow for sale of games so that someone else couldn't play the game offline after the game had been sold to someone else

so, all that complaining about no used games is what drove always online, they took away always online but that means we have to constantly swap discs unless we go fully digital download next gen

when you "innovate" it needs to be something that people actually want and the things MS tried to call innovation with xbox 1 were not it.

Really doesn't the xbox 360 play movies.? Oh yeah you forgot about that,wait didn't the original xbox as well.?

How about HD-DVD $199 add on for the 360.? Wait so the 360 with the add on for movies was the same as the most expensive model of the PS3,but without..

60GB HDD

Wifi

Media card reader

Free online play

Rechargeable batteries on the controller.

HDMI port.

Hell Wifi on xbox 360 was $99 dollars on launch,HD-DVD $200,online $50..

The PS3 at $600 dollars was a steal,it was such a great deal it make the xbox one look like a damn arm robbery,even ignoring blu-ray Wifi,60GB hdd online free basically make for the difference and then some,a 20GB drive on xbox 360 was also $99 dollars.

So lets see sony give me for $600 what on the competition would cost.

$100 Wifi

$50 online play

$1,000 Blu-ray

$400 xbox 360

40 extra GB of which would cost $200 more on xbox 360.

That comes to $1750 you would need to spend to actually match what the PS3 gave you on 2006,and on 2007 you have to pay again another $50,value wise the PS3 destroyed the xbox 360.

Oh by the way Blu-ray was need it on 2006 MS had a game that spam, across 3 DVD,after that even FPS like rage can spam across 3 disc on xbox 360,not only that Blu-ray also gave the PS3 7.1 loss less uncompressed.

So yeah when you talk value the PS3 walked all over the xbox,mind you that the first model of the xbox 360 release did not even had HDMI if you wanted that you would have to wait like 3 years to get it.

Sony deliver since day 1 while many were stock with lag on gears on 2006,i was playing 20 vs 20 on Resistance smooth as butter,what is that servers for games what MS try now to say is great.

It's almost like you didn't read or didn't understand my post.

Simply put microshafts idea of "innovation" are complete bullshit, I was not surprised in the least that damn near everyone and their grandmas hated their ideas..

"miss judge..." loltormentos.

I never said what people want and innovation are mutually exclusive. I said usually. And it is usually because most people most of the time cannot and do not conceive of things much differently than what they are now. At best, people usually think of incremental improvements not really innovation, hence my comment about version 1.1

If you think about it this is an obvious truism. If we were all, or majority, or significant minority inclined towards innovation then we would all be innovators, inventors, etc. But how many people in your entire life have you met that are truly innovative?

The point is that you usually cannot poll or focus group your way to innovation because most people cannot really tell you anything useful. Indeed, most people cannot tell you whether they like the potential innovation until after they have actually tried it. Using your example, most people would not have been able to describe the steam box controller.

In any case, more attempts at innovation fail than succeed, which is evidenced by the way venture capitalism works. There are lots of reasons why MS has messed up which includes your points about DRM which is something people do not want. But that isn't the core of what they were trying to do; although I would agree that is a great example of poorly executing and shooting yourself.

No, period. Offline means offline, all the time. No check in, like we do now. The fact that you aren't bother by this doesn't speak well of you.

I don't think they've misjudged people. They simply need to market their product better. What I think confused Microsoft was the fact that people used the 360 for many more things other than games but they fail to realize that what brought them their wasn't Xbox Music or Netflix but the damn games. Why would I need a $500 machine for Skype or ESPN or Cable? The Xbox One is jack of all trades yet a master of none. If Microsoft wants to sell me their all in "One", then they'll need to prove to me that being able to Skype while playing COD is worth a $500 purchase. For non-gamers, it's an even harder sell.

Sony is currently marketing the PS4 as a gaming console. Period. Sure they'll have entertainment services but their message to the consumer has been clear and consistent. Cough up $400 so you can get a next gen gaming experience. Why will Sony beat out Microsoft this holiday season? Because their selling gamers a gaming console at a lower price. The thing is, that'll only work at launch and the next few years but Microsoft is playing long ball. It'll be interesting to see how these companies challenge each other throughout this generation.

Look at Windows 8. Ain't the first time.

ROFL!

I think all of the initial decisions for the Xbox One were made for a primary audience other than the gaming consumer. Otherwise, they would not have done so many things that were disliked. It was an odd set of decisions because it was abandoning the consumer base earned by the Xbox and Xbox 360's successes. For a big business to do such a thing, the profits must have been estimated to be worth the loss of that audience.

Microsoft is a disgusting company who only thought about their best interest. Sony on the other hands; always had gamers in mind.