Will the drug wars ever stop?

[QUOTE="pis3rch"] I don't really see your point.....I know it's a choice. A heroin addict damages their own body and wastes their own money by making that choice. As a society, should we add on to that damage by imprisoning them and making it more difficult to clean up and become productive citizens? Personally, if my tax dollars are going to be spent on "solving" the drug problem I'd choose to finance rehab and therapy over imprisonment and the DEA. We're wasting billions on this, it's time to accept the fact that it doesn't work and, like Europe, move towards a different approach to the drug problem. LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="pis3rch"][QUOTE="Strider_91"] But the people becoming addicts are making that choice, i know not always but they're always exceptions.. There's no way to be fair to both groups though.. and for the most part they're doing it to themselves..Strider_91

And i'm talking about changing those consequences. Detriments to health are a given, but jail doesn't have to be. Why should only some be the "lucky ones" who get rehab? Why not just send them all there instead of sending them to prison?

[QUOTE="Strider_91"][QUOTE="pis3rch"] I don't really see your point.....I know it's a choice. A heroin addict damages their own body and wastes their own money by making that choice. As a society, should we add on to that damage by imprisoning them and making it more difficult to clean up and become productive citizens? Personally, if my tax dollars are going to be spent on "solving" the drug problem I'd choose to finance rehab and therapy over imprisonment and the DEA. We're wasting billions on this, it's time to accept the fact that it doesn't work and, like Europe, move towards a different approach to the drug problem. pis3rch

And i'm talking about changing those consequences. Detriments to health are a given, but jail doesn't have to be. Why should only some be the "lucky ones" who get rehab? Why not just send them all there instead of sending them to prison?

In some cases it may be a waste...some people can't/won't be rehabilitated..

[QUOTE="Strider_91"][QUOTE="pis3rch"] I don't really see your point.....I know it's a choice. A heroin addict damages their own body and wastes their own money by making that choice. As a society, should we add on to that damage by imprisoning them and making it more difficult to clean up and become productive citizens? Personally, if my tax dollars are going to be spent on "solving" the drug problem I'd choose to finance rehab and therapy over imprisonment and the DEA. We're wasting billions on this, it's time to accept the fact that it doesn't work and, like Europe, move towards a different approach to the drug problem. pis3rch

And i'm talking about changing those consequences. Detriments to health are a given, but jail doesn't have to be. Why should only some be the "lucky ones" who get rehab? Why not just send them all there instead of sending them to prison?

[QUOTE="Strider_91"][QUOTE="pis3rch"] I don't really see your point.....I know it's a choice. A heroin addict damages their own body and wastes their own money by making that choice. As a society, should we add on to that damage by imprisoning them and making it more difficult to clean up and become productive citizens? Personally, if my tax dollars are going to be spent on "solving" the drug problem I'd choose to finance rehab and therapy over imprisonment and the DEA. We're wasting billions on this, it's time to accept the fact that it doesn't work and, like Europe, move towards a different approach to the drug problem. pis3rch

And i'm talking about changing those consequences. Detriments to health are a given, but jail doesn't have to be. Why should only some be the "lucky ones" who get rehab? Why not just send them all there instead of sending them to prison?

[QUOTE="sonicare"]

Opium was legal for decades and it nearly destroyed China and several other countries. Simply legalizing drugs is not a sensible solution.

Pirate700

[QUOTE="Pirate700"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"]

Opium was legal for decades and it nearly destroyed China and several other countries. Simply legalizing drugs is not a sensible solution.

jalexbrown

All of you are claiming that it won't work, yet the only country to actually try it (Portugal) is showing that it does. Our system is a failure that has cost billions and has left us with overcrowded prisons and high usage rates. Their method is showing lower usage rates, even among teens, and is actually helping people. pis3rch

All of you are claiming that it won't work, yet the only country to actually try it (Portugal) is showing that it does. Our system is a failure that has cost billions and has left us with overcrowded prisons and high usage rates. Their method is showing lower usage rates, even among teens, and is actually helping people. pis3rch

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="Pirate700"]Yeah I hate that legalize everything crap. Why don't we legalize robberies, B&Es, pirating, speeding, etc. so we don't have to spend money on that either. Calling it a 'war' was the worst move law enforcement ever made on the matter.

LJS9502_basic

I'd rather than fight over it than legalize it, because legalizing drugs says... it's okay to be a junkie, it's okay to an unnecessaryburden upon society, it's okay to be wreckless and irresponsible andit's okay to abuse substances.

Junkies and junky wannabes always want legalized narcotics.

I proposejunkie island. An island where there is nothing but drugs wherejunkies can behigh until the either starve because they are too busy being high to procure food or they just run out of drugs. Any drug abuser we get fed up with is shipped to junkie island. No escape and once you are sent there there is no coming back.You know it would fail. They would have no economy, no supplies and they would run out of drugs. They wouldn't be working on anything because they would be high the entire time. It would be great. They would have their own community to **** and ruin far from therest of us. And when dying of drug overdose it would no longer be our problem. **** them. I'm getting excited just thinking about it. It's the perfect resolution but bleeding heart liberals (Drug addict hippies) would say it'swrong.

[QUOTE="pis3rch"]All of you are claiming that it won't work, yet the only country to actually try it (Portugal) is showing that it does. Our system is a failure that has cost billions and has left us with overcrowded prisons and high usage rates. Their method is showing lower usage rates, even among teens, and is actually helping people. Strider_91

What purpose does jail serve?

I mean, literally every single country that has tried out the decriminalization of drugs has shown improvements in the statistics of the use of that drug. Yet, people seem to still insist on denying that very basic fact and insisting that the criminalization of drugs is the best option. What evidence is there in support of that claim?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="jalexbrown"] Just like the "war on terror". But seriously, we can't say that every thing legal should be legal and everything illegal should be illegal. "Just because the lawmakers say so" doesn't sit as a very good reason. Why is pot illegal? And likewise, why is alcohol not illegal? Is there a logically line that splits the two?jalexbrown

I'd rather than fight over it than legalize it, because legalizing drugs says... it's okay to be a junkie, it's okay to an unnecessaryburden upon society, it's okay to be wreckless and irresponsible andit's okay to abuse substances.

Junkies and junky wannabes always want legalized narcotics.

I proposejunkie island. An island where there is nothing but drugs wherejunkies can behigh until the either starve because they are too busy being high to procure food or they just run out of drugs. Any drug abuser we get fed up with is shipped to junkie island. No escape and once you are sent there there is no coming back.You know it would fail. They would have no economy, no supplies and they would run out of drugs. They wouldn't be working on anything because they would be high the entire time. It would be great. They would have their own community to **** and ruin far from therest of us. And when dying of drug overdose it would no longer be our problem. **** them. I'm getting excited just thinking about it. It's the perfect resolution but bleeding heart liberals (Drug addict hippies) would say it'swrong.

MagnumPI

[QUOTE="pis3rch"]All of you are claiming that it won't work, yet the only country to actually try it (Portugal) is showing that it does. Our system is a failure that has cost billions and has left us with overcrowded prisons and high usage rates. Their method is showing lower usage rates, even among teens, and is actually helping people. LJS9502_basic

Outstanding logic.

The solution won't work for everyone. Therefore it shouldn't be offeredto anyone.

Brilliant.

[QUOTE="Strider_91"][QUOTE="pis3rch"]All of you are claiming that it won't work, yet the only country to actually try it (Portugal) is showing that it does. Our system is a failure that has cost billions and has left us with overcrowded prisons and high usage rates. Their method is showing lower usage rates, even among teens, and is actually helping people. GabuEx

What purpose does jail serve?

I mean, literally every single country that has tried out the decriminalization of drugs has shown improvements in the statistics of the use of that drug. Yet, people seem to still insist on denying that very basic fact and insisting that the criminalization of drugs is the best option. What evidence is there in support of that claim?

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Because alcohol is too mainstream to remove....see failure of prohibition. Marijuana has never been big in much of society. So it's easier to illegalize it. LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="pis3rch"]All of you are claiming that it won't work, yet the only country to actually try it (Portugal) is showing that it does. Our system is a failure that has cost billions and has left us with overcrowded prisons and high usage rates. Their method is showing lower usage rates, even among teens, and is actually helping people. SUD123456

Outstanding logic.

The solution won't work for everyone. Therefore it shouldn't be offeredto anyone.

Brilliant.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="jalexbrown"] I just don't see why marijuana should be illegal - and I'm not a pot smoker trying to defend my own hobbies, because I don't smoke anymore. If you look at the countries where marijuana has been legalized, has the legalization done much harm to those countries? Or better yet, can we really justify slowing down our entire legal system over pot smokers who do nothing worse than sit around eating bags of potato chips and listening to music?

jalexbrown

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Strider_91"] I didn't say it wouldn't work.. But for them not willing.. jail is the only way it should end..Strider_91

What purpose does jail serve?

I mean, literally every single country that has tried out the decriminalization of drugs has shown improvements in the statistics of the use of that drug. Yet, people seem to still insist on denying that very basic fact and insisting that the criminalization of drugs is the best option. What evidence is there in support of that claim?

If someone has been given the option of being helped and offered rehab and refuse it.. I don't see them as someone with much concern for there well being or others.. and presume these to be more dangerous in the country and would be better suited for jail.. That's just my opinion..Strider_91

Whoa, whoa, whoa, are you telling me that you support the jailing of someone purely on the basis of your subjective determination that they are dangerous, despite them having not done anything to harm another person?

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Can't say but didn't they recently report one country in Europe that legalized it was thinking of going back to illegal due to problems? I could be wrong...since I read it here.:PLJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Strider_91"][QUOTE="pis3rch"]All of you are claiming that it won't work, yet the only country to actually try it (Portugal) is showing that it does. Our system is a failure that has cost billions and has left us with overcrowded prisons and high usage rates. Their method is showing lower usage rates, even among teens, and is actually helping people. GabuEx

What purpose does jail serve?

I mean, literally every single country that has tried out the decriminalization of drugs has shown improvements in the statistics of the use of that drug. Yet, people seem to still insist on denying that very basic fact and insisting that the criminalization of drugs is the best option. What evidence is there in support of that claim?

[QUOTE="Strider_91"]If someone has been given the option of being helped and offered rehab and refuse it.. I don't see them as someone with much concern for there well being or others.. and presume these to be more dangerous in the country and would be better suited for jail.. That's just my opinion..GabuEx

Whoa, whoa, whoa, are you telling me that you support the jailing of someone purely on the basis of your subjective determination that they are dangerous, despite them having not done anything to harm another person?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] The thing about marijuana in particular is that people have been spreading things for years that just aren't true. For one, marijuana isn't physically addictive; it's mentally habit-forming, but it can be broken without withdrawal symptoms. Also you cannot overdose on marijuana; it's just not possible, period. I sometimes wonder if society would still look down on marijuana if they knew the facts instead of drivel spread by people pushing their own anti-marijuana agenda.jalexbrown

I completely dodged that question.. my apologises.. Are you saying the decriminalisation of all drugs? Or marijuana?Strider_91

Any drugs, really. You can smoke pot in the Netherlands. They prescribe heroin in Switzerland. They've decriminalized everything in Portugal. None of these places has seen an increase in drug use. All of these places have seen an improvement among the health of users. None of these places have become a drug haven. The number of new addicts has declined. The cases of drug-related HIV infection have dropped like a rock. The fact of the matter is that all available evidence points to only positive effects from drug decriminalization.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Interesting you say that because I've seen medical arguments....not legal one's against marijuana. Which side to believe?

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="SUD123456"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] It's a fact that not everyone wants rehab and thus doesn't work.LJS9502_basic

Outstanding logic.

The solution won't work for everyone. Therefore it shouldn't be offeredto anyone.

Brilliant.

Then you have missed the point of the thread. The notion is to greatly reduce the policing/criminal management costs to society and redirect a goodly portion of those funds to much greater education, outreach, addiction management, etc.

The facts are that 90%+ of the money and effort spent on the drug problem in the US are directed to the criminal justice system. With no positive effect. Continuation of the same failed policies guarantees continued failure. It isn't hard to figure out.

[QUOTE="Strider_91"]I completely dodged that question.. my apologises.. Are you saying the decriminalisation of all drugs? Or marijuana?GabuEx

Any drugs, really. You can smoke pot in the Netherlands. They prescribe heroin in Switzerland. They've decriminalized everything in Portugal. None of these places has seen an increase in drug use. All of these places have seen an improvement among the health of users. None of these places have become a drug haven. The number of new addicts has declined. The cases of drug-related HIV infection have dropped like a rock. The fact of the matter is that all available evidence points to only positive effects from drug decriminalization.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] This isn't an argument about health. Rather or not marijuana is a hazardous thing is irrelevant to the law - at least a law that allows me to smoke cigarettes and drink excessive amounts of alcohol.jalexbrown

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] This isn't an argument about health. Rather or not marijuana is a hazardous thing is irrelevant to the law - at least a law that allows me to smoke cigarettes and drink excessive amounts of alcohol.jalexbrown

That isn't necessarily true..it's more like...assuming no one cares, and that you have no responsibilities in regards to the affairs or well being of others..

[QUOTE="Strider_91"]I completely dodged that question.. my apologises.. Are you saying the decriminalisation of all drugs? Or marijuana?GabuEx

Any drugs, really. You can smoke pot in the Netherlands. They prescribe heroin in Switzerland. They've decriminalized everything in Portugal. None of these places has seen an increase in drug use. All of these places have seen an improvement among the health of users. None of these places have become a drug haven. The number of new addicts has declined. The cases of drug-related HIV infection have dropped like a rock. The fact of the matter is that all available evidence points to only positive effects from drug decriminalization.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Strider_91"]I completely dodged that question.. my apologises.. Are you saying the decriminalisation of all drugs? Or marijuana?jalexbrown

Any drugs, really. You can smoke pot in the Netherlands. They prescribe heroin in Switzerland. They've decriminalized everything in Portugal. None of these places has seen an increase in drug use. All of these places have seen an improvement among the health of users. None of these places have become a drug haven. The number of new addicts has declined. The cases of drug-related HIV infection have dropped like a rock. The fact of the matter is that all available evidence points to only positive effects from drug decriminalization.

Decriminalization, not legalization. People who are caught in possession of or using small amounts of a drug are brought before a small committee made up of a lawyer, a judge, and a health care or social services worker, and it arrives at one of three courses of action: a fine, treatment, or no action at all. Basically, the focus is on treatment and prevention rather than punishment. I don't believe it's legal to sell drugs at a corner store or anything like that.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Any drugs, really. You can smoke pot in the Netherlands. They prescribe heroin in Switzerland. They've decriminalized everything in Portugal. None of these places has seen an increase in drug use. All of these places have seen an improvement among the health of users. None of these places have become a drug haven. The number of new addicts has declined. The cases of drug-related HIV infection have dropped like a rock. The fact of the matter is that all available evidence points to only positive effects from drug decriminalization.

GabuEx

Decriminalization, not legalization. People who are caught in possession of or using small amounts of a drug are brought before a small committee made up of a lawyer, a judge, and a health care or social services worker, and it arrives at one of three courses of action: a fine, treatment, or no action at all. Basically, the focus is on treatment rather than punishment. I don't believe it's legal to sell drugs at a corner store or anything like that.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The dangers of tobacco were not known when it became a part of society. So that isn't relavent as to why one is legal and one is not. If we have dangerous substances legal already....what is the basis of an argument to add more then?

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The dangers of tobacco were not known when it became a part of society. So that isn't relavent as to why one is legal and one is not. If we have dangerous substances legal already....what is the basis of an argument to add more then?

LJS9502_basic

How do you know if a person sitting around home watching TV is a productive member of society or not? How do you know if anyone is a productive member of society or not? Moreover, why does it matter if someone is a productive member of society or not, by any definition?

If my father was a billionaire and left it all to me and I do nothing more than spend it outrageously on cars, houses, crack, women...whatever....by any capitalist definition of productivity, I will have been a far more productive member of society than 99.9% of other people.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Strider_91"]I completely dodged that question.. my apologises.. Are you saying the decriminalisation of all drugs? Or marijuana?jalexbrown

Any drugs, really. You can smoke pot in the Netherlands. They prescribe heroin in Switzerland. They've decriminalized everything in Portugal. None of these places has seen an increase in drug use. All of these places have seen an improvement among the health of users. None of these places have become a drug haven. The number of new addicts has declined. The cases of drug-related HIV infection have dropped like a rock. The fact of the matter is that all available evidence points to only positive effects from drug decriminalization.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The dangers of tobacco were not known when it became a part of society. So that isn't relavent as to why one is legal and one is not. If we have dangerous substances legal already....what is the basis of an argument to add more then?

Xx_Hopeless_xX

That isn't necessarily true..it's more like...assuming no one cares, and that you have no responsibilities in regards to the affairs or well being of others..

Can one not do both? You're a productive member of society I'm sure, but you still find plenty of time to post on Gamespot. Why would it be any worse if you did it while smoking marijuana?jalexbrown

Well i wasn't aware of ALL of that to be honest.. wow.. Fair point, but there isn't a guarantee that would work everywhere.. I just don't see a problem with the law at the minute enough to make a change like that.. But that's my life, probably not the best to judge the situation with the lack of drug situations surrounding me..Strider_91

Well the biggest problem with the war on drugs is the cost. Tens of billion of dollars are spent every year to enforce criminal laws against drug use... for what? In 1979, 31% of the population reported having used drugs in the past. In 2001, that number was up to 42%. The war on drugs has been one of the biggest failures in the history of US government policy, yet people still support it just because they're scared of the alternative.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] Does sitting home smoking pot and watching television infringe on the rights of others? No. So I'm only hurting myself. What's the problem with that if I'm old enough to understand that I'm doing so?jalexbrown

That isn't necessarily true..it's more like...assuming no one cares, and that you have no responsibilities in regards to the affairs or well being of others..

You stated that if you sat around watching TV and smoking pot it wouldn't hurt anyone...and i stated that..that is not necessarily the case...then proceeded to give an example of what one may think if one feels that doing nothing but sitting and smoking pot whilst watching television is not hurting anyone...

And what i said had nothing to do with contributing to society...it was more directed towards family obligations and such...

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Does sitting at home watching TV make one a productive member of society? And being in a society everyone should be productive for the good of the society.

LJS9502_basic

If someone refuses help what do you believe to be the correct action if jail is off the table? Strider_91

Well, I mean, if they're committing crimes to fuel their addiction then that's one thing, but if they're not, then I don't see what there is to do, really. We've seen ample evidence in the US that locking someone up in jail doesn't make them suddenly stop wanting to do drugs.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

That isn't necessarily true..it's more like...assuming no one cares, and that you have no responsibilities in regards to the affairs or well being of others..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

You stated that if you sat around watching TV and smoking pot it wouldn't hurt anyone...and i stated that..that is not necessarily the case...then proceeded to give an example of what one may think if one feels that doing nothing but sitting and smoking pot whilst watching television is not hurting anyone...

And what i said had nothing to do with contributing to society...it was more directed towards family obligations and such...