Liberal Democracy is not compatible with Islam

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#101 Posted by MannyDelgado (1250 posts) -
Any real move to democracy in the ME is always smashed by the West, particularly the US. They fund and give arms to coups, terrorist, and puppet governments so that they can work in the US interests. There's plenty of credible investigative and scholarly work that can confirm this and with the internet, the info can be easily accessed. So anyone who talks this "ME is non democratic" rubbish is completely unwilling to do basic research on the matter.thebest31406
In what sense is it rubbish? The fact that the West has in the past intervened to ensure that middle-eastern countries remain non-democratic doesn't make it any less true
#102 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

ghoklebutter

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

Your elitism is so charming.

Elitism... LOL.

I'm trying to detach him before he and his loved ones get blown up in one way or the other. So elitist.

#103 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

Victorious_Fize

Your elitism is so charming.

Elitism... LOL.

I'm trying to detach him before he and his loved ones get blown up in one way or the other. So elitist.

That pretty much only proves my point, but okay.

#104 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

Your elitism is so charming.

ghoklebutter

Elitism... LOL.

I'm trying to detach him before he and his loved ones get blown up in one way or the other. So elitist.

That pretty much only proves my point, but okay.

What? People get killed here if they renounce their religion or spew heretical crap, a Paki would know... It's for his own safety to disassociate himself with Muslim/Saudi people if he's an atheist/secular/liberal. So how am I an elitist here? You think it's normal for an atheist to loiter proudly in Saudi Arabia or something?
#105 Posted by thebest31406 (3323 posts) -
[QUOTE="thebest31406"]Any real move to democracy in the ME is always smashed by the West, particularly the US. They fund and give arms to coups, terrorist, and puppet governments so that they can work in the US interests. There's plenty of credible investigative and scholarly work that can confirm this and with the internet, the info can be easily accessed. So anyone who talks this "ME is non democratic" rubbish is completely unwilling to do basic research on the matter.MannyDelgado
In what sense is it rubbish? The fact that the West has in the past intervened to ensure that middle-eastern countries remain non-democratic doesn't make it any less true

Not just the past, they do it till this day; Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq.
#106 Posted by MannyDelgado (1250 posts) -
[QUOTE="MannyDelgado"][QUOTE="thebest31406"]Any real move to democracy in the ME is always smashed by the West, particularly the US. They fund and give arms to coups, terrorist, and puppet governments so that they can work in the US interests. There's plenty of credible investigative and scholarly work that can confirm this and with the internet, the info can be easily accessed. So anyone who talks this "ME is non democratic" rubbish is completely unwilling to do basic research on the matter.thebest31406
In what sense is it rubbish? The fact that the West has in the past intervened to ensure that middle-eastern countries remain non-democratic doesn't make it any less true

Not just the past, they do it till this day; Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq.

I reiterate: how does that make the assertion that the Middle East is non-democratic any less true? You're completely missing the point, which is that it remains the case irrespective of its causes.
#107 Posted by SaudiFury (8707 posts) -

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] Elitism... LOL.

I'm trying to detach him before he and his loved ones get blown up in one way or the other. So elitist.

Victorious_Fize

That pretty much only proves my point, but okay.

What? People get killed here if they renounce their religion or spew heretical crap, a Paki would know... It's for his own safety to disassociate himself with Muslim/Saudi people if he's an atheist/secular/liberal. So how am I an elitist here? You think it's normal for an atheist to loiter proudly in Saudi Arabia or something?

the thing is there are Saudi liberals in Saudi, which you obviously dispise, and i promise you this much, there are more of us, we may not be the majority but we exist and a lot of us silenced outright because their head could indeed roll for having an opinion. if you can't see the problem.....

I have to ask the question for a third time to you after your PM. why is tribalism (still) so important? important enough for you to have to ask me what my tribe is (as in that other thread) when i had an opinion you didn't like? you say you do not endorse or support it, yet you spend quite a lot of your time talking about it. I'd also like to ask what's your beef is with liberalism?

what is it that you don't find at all disturbing about a guy who writes some offensive comments on a Twitter account and a guy who starts to weep and call for said person's death?

and please don't make the mistake that because i am a liberal that your gonna lump me in with people like the Assads, the Saud's, Mubarak's and the Saddam Hussiens of the Middle East. I can just as easily and childishly lump you in with every Islamic terrorist (and there are a lot sorry to point that out) that's bombed government buildings, killed innocent civilians (most of the time other Muslims, or Muslims who grew up with the wrong sect) or have run incredibly oppressive governments (Taliban, Al Shabab).

and to answer your question, if i was allowed to write an opinion piece in a newspaper, yes i would, not for Al Walid, not for Al Saud, none of those people, but rather just for my own belief, and i'd probably write it a whole lot more conciliatory and eloquently then i usually do on this forum. If that still bothers you, then sorry 'fvck you' i'm not buttoning up my lip simply because you don't like what i have to say, meanwhile you can continue to harp on who owned what land and what tribe and who'se important because of relationship to the Prophet 1400 yada yada yada.

i know you said you don't believe in tribalism, you say "fvck tribalism", back when i said i don't care about tribalism (i do have to BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE EVIDENTLY GIVE SO MUCH S*IT ABOUT IT) I get a half sarcastic supposedly good natured joke about how i'm speaking like a black nosed dosari. Yet you opted to spend a paragraph in a PM about the Azdi tribe, then talk about Qahtanites and Adnanites are the sons of Ishmael, therefore they own all the land. uh no, for one if that is 100% all that proves that you are the original inhabitants of the region, but it's been pretty evident for almost of Arab/Muslim history that were more mixed then that, to point that out to me and say "well were special", no you are not.

I thought this was a Shiite thing, and Arab dictator thing, where having blood of the Prophet in your veins was holy blood and you were given special - i dunno - privileges over everyone else. Or that having your tribe dealing with or helping the Prophet Muhammed PBUH (even if proven 100% true) somehow makes your group anymore special 1400 years later.

It should be something that makes you proud of your past, not something that is used to bully others because your somehow privileged for just being born in the right tribe.

and by the way, continuing to point out the different tribes (and it's almost always lower then themselves - see ethnocentrism) serves only to denigrate and divide the people even more so then they do now. So now it's not just divided along religious sect, but also along with whichever tribe you were born under. but again, you don't endorse tribalism, just needed to point that to me along and stress how important it is.

if you can't find the incoherence in that, i can't help you.

But you will know what i WILL do as a smelly evil secular liberal? I'll let you keep talking up until you threaten hurting or killing someone.

and that's the difference.

#108 Posted by thebest31406 (3323 posts) -
[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="MannyDelgado"]In what sense is it rubbish? The fact that the West has in the past intervened to ensure that middle-eastern countries remain non-democratic doesn't make it any less trueMannyDelgado
Not just the past, they do it till this day; Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq.

I reiterate: how does that make the assertion that the Middle East is non-democratic any less true? You're completely missing the point, which is that it remains the case irrespective of its causes.

Yeah but that can't be your central point; the ME is non-democratic; you wanna discuss all the ways they lack democracy but conveniently, you don't wanna discuss how or why.
#109 Posted by MannyDelgado (1250 posts) -
[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="MannyDelgado"][QUOTE="thebest31406"] Not just the past, they do it till this day; Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq.

I reiterate: how does that make the assertion that the Middle East is non-democratic any less true? You're completely missing the point, which is that it remains the case irrespective of its causes.

Yeah but that can't be your central point; the ME is non-democratic; you wanna discuss all the ways they lack democracy but conveniently, you don't wanna discuss how or why.

Oh, piss off, f*ckface. I just saw that your post made no sense and pointed this out, and now you're clumsily trying to wriggle out of it.
#110 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

That pretty much only proves my point, but okay.

SaudiFury

What? People get killed here if they renounce their religion or spew heretical crap, a Paki would know... It's for his own safety to disassociate himself with Muslim/Saudi people if he's an atheist/secular/liberal. So how am I an elitist here? You think it's normal for an atheist to loiter proudly in Saudi Arabia or something?

the thing is there are Saudi liberals in Saudi, which you obviously dispise, and i promise you this much, there are more of us, we may not be the majority but we exist and a lot of us silenced outright because their head could indeed roll for having an opinion. if you can't see the problem.....

I have to ask the question for a third time to you after your PM. why is tribalism (still) so important? important enough for you to have to ask me what my tribe is (as in that other thread) when i had an opinion you didn't like? you say you do not endorse or support it, yet you spend quite a lot of your time talking about it. I'd also like to ask what's your beef is with liberalism?

what is it that you don't find at all disturbing about a guy who writes some offensive comments on a Twitter account and a guy who starts to weep and call for said person's death?

and please don't make the mistake that because i am a liberal that your gonna lump me in with people like the Assads, the Saud's, Mubarak's and the Saddam Hussiens of the Middle East. I can just as easily and childishly lump you in with every Islamic terrorist (and there are a lot sorry to point that out) that's bombed government buildings, killed innocent civilians (most of the time other Muslims, or Muslims who grew up with the wrong sect) or have run incredibly oppressive governments (Taliban, Al Shabab).

and to answer your question, if i was allowed to write an opinion piece in a newspaper, yes i would, not for Al Walid, not for Al Saud, none of those people, but rather just for my own belief, and i'd probably write it a whole lot more conciliatory and eloquently then i usually do on this forum. If that still bothers you, then sorry 'fvck you' i'm not buttoning up my lip simply because you don't like what i have to say, meanwhile you can continue to harp on who owned what land and what tribe and who'se important because of relationship to the Prophet 1400 yada yada yada.

i know you said you don't believe in tribalism, you say "fvck tribalism", back when i said i don't care about tribalism (i do have to BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE EVIDENTLY GIVE SO MUCH S*IT ABOUT IT) I get a half sarcastic supposedly good natured joke about how i'm speaking like a black nosed dosari. Yet you opted to spend a paragraph in a PM about the Azdi tribe, then talk about Qahtanites and Adnanites are the sons of Ishmael, therefore they own all the land. uh no, for one if that is 100% all that proves that you are the original inhabitants of the region, but it's been pretty evident for almost of Arab/Muslim history that were more mixed then that, to point that out to me and say "well were special", no you are not.

I thought this was a Shiite thing, and Arab dictator thing, where having blood of the Prophet in your veins was holy blood and you were given special - i dunno - privileges over everyone else. Or that having your tribe dealing with or helping the Prophet Muhammed PBUH (even if proven 100% true) somehow makes your group anymore special 1400 years later.

It should be something that makes you proud of your past, not something that is used to bully others because your somehow privileged for just being born in the right tribe.

and by the way, continuing to point out the different tribes (and it's almost always lower then themselves - see ethnocentrism) serves only to denigrate and divide the people even more so then they do now. So now it's not just divided along religious sect, but also along with whichever tribe you were born under. but again, you don't endorse tribalism, just needed to point that to me along and stress how important it is.

if you can't find the incoherence in that, i can't help you.

But you will know what i WILL do as a smelly evil secular liberal? I'll let you keep talking up until you threaten hurting or killing someone.

and that's the difference.

Well gee, someone got under your skin... I used to talk to you on the basis of you being a Saudi. Clearly you're nowhere near this place. o.O

You don't even understand what tribes are about, you think I will kill/hurt you for being a liberal... Erta7 shoi wa ana akhouk. xD

El fareg been al qabael wa al soloob ho eselob al tahadoth elee tisaweeh wa ana asawih :3

Al 3ajm elee yojoon hina ma3a el qabael ma yoboon yi3ishon mthlhm, wa yob3'oon al qabael tisir methlhm (wahe al 3olmaniyah wa al liberalliyah tab3aan) fooq kitha

Let me explain the whole thing about tribalism:

It doesn't matter if you belong or a tribe or not, given that you are a Muslim man that strives for the Ummah, most Jawa and Arabized nations are a true attestament of this. That's what matters.

One doesn't need to look far to notice that most secular/liberal people are foreigners, ajam, or salayeeb, as they're locally known. I recieve their opposition to Islam in Saudi Arabia as much as Europeans recieve Shariah law. It's our soil, just like it's Europeans' soil.So it is outlandish and outright outrageous for your type to spew kufr under the aegis of nationalism (aka riding royal family's dick, something most secular figures being famous for) as much as it is outlandish and outright outrageous for immigrant Muslims to form emirates in Europe.

That's where tribalism stems from. Being an Azdi, Asir is my homeland, you really think I will let you implement secularism and liberalism on it by sucking up to your dictators? Tribes unite for the sheer goal of quelling that, a coherent hegemony where people know their origins and homelands prevent foreign tides from getting afoot. The days where people are ignorant dictatorial "civilizing" (read: colonialism) are long gone.

So there you go, when tribes you unite, we preserve our ancient homelands, religion, and culture, from westernization and Iranianization (the latter coming more from Shia/Eastern Khalijis more than Iranians themselves).

#111 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

And yes Saudi, I know all about liberals in Saudi Arabia. I used to be on Twitter you know. =P

#112 Posted by BossPerson (9445 posts) -

And yes Saudi, I know all about liberals in Saudi Arabia. I used to be on Twitter you know. =P

Victorious_Fize

And all the homosexuals who are so because they can't get any with women? You know that "other" product of Wahhabism?

#113 Posted by Brosephus_Rex (507 posts) -

If saudifury is Saudi, then I'm Irish.That's fvcking awesome!

#114 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

And yes Saudi, I know all about liberals in Saudi Arabia. I used to be on Twitter you know. =P

BossPerson

And all the homosexuals who are so because they can't get any with women? You know that "other" product of Wahhabism?

Oh man, jaliyaat are still sad as fvck. xD
#115 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

If saudifury is Saudi, then I'm Irish.That's fvcking awesome!

Brosephus_Rex
I'm confused, doesn't he have a citizenship? I thought he visits Lahsa quite often.
#116 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -
There's no "Saudi" ethnicity too... sooo... o.O
#117 Posted by Brosephus_Rex (507 posts) -

[QUOTE="Brosephus_Rex"]

If saudifury is Saudi, then I'm Irish.That's fvcking awesome!

Victorious_Fize

I'm confused, doesn't he have a citizenship? I thought he visits Lahsa quite often.

Sh!t, I don't have citizenship.

Fvck me, I'm a piss poor plastic paddy.

I don't even have the plastic.

#118 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Brosephus_Rex"]

If saudifury is Saudi, then I'm Irish.That's fvcking awesome!

Brosephus_Rex

I'm confused, doesn't he have a citizenship? I thought he visits Lahsa quite often.

Sh!t, I don't have citizenship.

Fvck me, I'm a piss poor plastic paddy.

I don't even have the plastic.

What? Saudi is a nationality. You're either a citizen of Saudi Arabia (saudi) or not (not saudi...). If he's not Saudi, he's just an Arab.
#119 Posted by Brosephus_Rex (507 posts) -

[QUOTE="Brosephus_Rex"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] I'm confused, doesn't he have a citizenship? I thought he visits Lahsa quite often.Victorious_Fize

Sh!t, I don't have citizenship.

Fvck me, I'm a piss poor plastic paddy.

I don't even have the plastic.

What? Saudi is a nationality. You're either a citizen of Saudi Arabia (saudi) or not (not saudi...). If he's not Saudi, he's just an Arab.

Would you accept him as Saudi if he has the corresponding paperwork?

edit: I wonder if Arabs are classified as Caucasian/White in the U.S.

#120 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Brosephus_Rex"]

Sh!t, I don't have citizenship.

Fvck me, I'm a piss poor plastic paddy.

I don't even have the plastic.

Brosephus_Rex

What? Saudi is a nationality. You're either a citizen of Saudi Arabia (saudi) or not (not saudi...). If he's not Saudi, he's just an Arab.

Would you accept him as Saudi if he has the corresponding paperwork?

Like I said, it's a nationality, has no bearing with me... o_o I was just confused because your post implied he didn't have citizenship.
#121 Posted by Brosephus_Rex (507 posts) -

[QUOTE="Brosephus_Rex"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] What? Saudi is a nationality. You're either a citizen of Saudi Arabia (saudi) or not (not saudi...). If he's not Saudi, he's just an Arab.Victorious_Fize

Would you accept him as Saudi if he has the corresponding paperwork?

Like I said, it's a nationality, has no bearing with me... o_o I was just confused because your post implied he didn't have citizenship.

wat

no

it explicitly that i dont later

i thought u were going after him for not being a "tru saudi" (reading comprehension)

so i made a catastrophic play on words

#122 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -
I would say I wouldn't waste time with him if he wasn't Saudi. Like BossPerson here, general jaliyaat are a time waster. 99% of the time they'll spew something an American would, although they'll often try to paint it as "insider intelligence". Also, I was under the impression census in America is based more on skin tone or something. Cause Arabs are a pan-ethnicity and racial census wouldn't be quite effective here...
#123 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Brosephus_Rex"]Would you accept him as Saudi if he has the corresponding paperwork?

Brosephus_Rex

Like I said, it's a nationality, has no bearing with me... o_o I was just confused because your post implied he didn't have citizenship.

wat

no

it explicitly that i dont later

i thought u were going after him for not being a "tru saudi" (reading comprehension)

so i made a catastrophic play on words

I see... well that's a confusion that we dealt with. =P
#124 Posted by Brosephus_Rex (507 posts) -

I think I said the prayer thingy five times and that is a conversion iirc

so i used to be a muslim (inb4 apostate)

this is wat i learned

remember, u heard it from an insider

"Allah says: blow sh!tup; fvck b!tches, get money (w/o interest)"

-Brohammed (PBUH)

you're welcome for my theological expertise

I would now drink a (dozen) beer(s) to celabrate, but I have work tomorrow.

#125 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -
Right.
#126 Posted by Brosephus_Rex (507 posts) -

its okay

we can still be friends

#127 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

Of course! :)

#128 Posted by Brosephus_Rex (507 posts) -

yay \o/

#129 Posted by dkdk999 (6738 posts) -
It wasn't compatible with christianity a few hundred years ago either.
#130 Posted by SaudiFury (8707 posts) -

Victorious_Fize

I didn't say you were gonna kill me, but i am saying it is you are attempting to silence me and others like me of having an opinion. it is indeed from your camp that goes out calling people kafir's - whether true or not - and even outright having them killed for things such as blasphemy. The fact that the someone like Anjem Choudry in the UK, as a UK citizen, can go around calling the 9/11 hijackers the Magneficient 19 and want to institute Shariah Law across Europe is protected (however unpopular his opinion is) in the UK, should stand for why they have a better way of ruling. and we should strive for that, to strive to have marketplace of ideas, not stifled down in order to not offend anyone and perserve ancient cultures on the sole basis that they're old, and that must mean that they're something right.

when i said to you, i didn't know my tribe, that even as i went to speak to my own father about this. he gave me this blank look on his face, my father the man who has been living in Saudi since the day he was born in 1962, didn't know. that my family didn't care for tribalism, we had religion, nation, and family. that's it. you seem to have found that odd. Even my own grandfather who died at the age of 72, before the modernization of the country, back when there was no electricity, no paved roads, no running water and you lived literally one what the oasis provided, had no strong tribal allegiance.

I don't care where you come from, i don't care that your from Asir, it should have no bearing on the ideas that your presenting to the table. and it certainly should not be used as a tool to sequester and isolate people for whom we don't like.

Pan-Islamism will never happen, just as Pan-Arabism will never happen. The only time we've ever been united under the same roof has been under a monarch or dictator or foreign empire. We have too many different ideas as to what exactly it means to have a Pan-Arab or Islamic state. and you clearly have no working knoweldge when it comes to political philosophy and how institutions are formed and supported. Read the American constitution and compare it to the Iraqi constitution and you'll quickly see what i mean. hell i'll write it right here the second article in the Iraqi constitution:

"Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

B. No law that contradicts the principles of democracy may be established.

C. No law that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms stipulated in this constitution may be established.

Second: This Constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and guarantees the full religious rights of all individuals to freedom of religious belief and practice such as Christians, Yazedis, and Mandi Sabeans."

I have to ask. which one takes precedence? Islam isn't democratic, not in the Western sense - it never has been. When it says full religious rights does it mean in the Western sense where a person on their will and faith can go from Muslim to Christian and they won't be killed? or does Islam take precedence? the Hadiths from Bukhari says "anyone who changes their religion, kill them". This is just one example and its a powderkeg waiting to happen.

Also, you seem to still have this weird hard on that being secular/liberal = in support of dictators..... Don't forget that the ulema, and the majority of religious conservatives are catered to every day in the country. Women can't work at Panda as a cashier, because it'll offend the religious conservatives is just ONE example of literally hundreds. Seriously put your head on straight, and take your blinders off. The only reason liberals appeal to the government, is because the religious conservatives can not only appeal, but sometimes threaten the state and still get their way every.single.time. Not to mention we are LEAD by social religious conservatives in Saudi, whether they're secretly hypocrites or not, they're all towing the same party line. We are dictated to all the time by our dictators, and far more often in support of religious conservatives and perptuating myths about the West and ourselves.

I'm really really sorry man that they sent Saudi girls to the Olympics, good thing that Saudi Equestrian team won the bronze, so we did not have to talk about the disgrace of women playing sports. I'm really sorry that Saudi king Faisel forced women education, the television, ended slavery, began modernizing and building our cities, provided the modernized government branches and the nanny state that every Saudi lives off of. I'm really sorry that the King Abdulaziz introduced the the automobile and the telephone.... I'm really sorry that liberals and 'kufirs' bring modernization and new ideas.

you answered my question about tribalism, but you failed to answer my other questions, what exactly do you have against liberalism? is it just because you think i'm riding dictator c0ck? is it because you think it fits the Saudi favorite past time "find the Kufir"?

and I must ask the question a 4th time again. Why did you feel the need to have to ask "what tribe do you belong to?" when i had an opinion you didn't like. Because it has no bearing on the ideas i'm supporting. I would never ask you the same question. You cannot tell me that you felt the need to ask that, then use it to put me in a box without taking into account my ideas, then say that you don't support tribalism. Because you almost immediately discount my opinion as being Western or something 'other' and outsider, rather then take on the idea itself.

There's a word for that it's called xenophobia. Something sadly with the exception of Jeddah, and the Dammam/Khobar area that Saudi has in spades. Though to be fair, virtually every country has it to some degree, it's just more so in the third world.

I am not saying abandon your faith, never did i say this once. secularism does not mean atheism. It is clear that the Arab world is going through great turmoil right now, what it doesn't need is more backward looking ideologies. Because before we know it, we'll be poor again, and we'll have developed no society to last beyond it because we valued tradition to such a point that it became a deteremint to our people.

The Arab/Muslim world is hopelessly reliant on technology most of which developed in 'kufir' territory by 'kufir' people to be able to function at all. Without it we starve, without the oil wealth we have virtually nothing. We cannot go back to bedu days when were 25 million Saudi's alone, never mind the 300 Million Arabs in the Arab world. we must move forward.

The west may have invented the idea of democracy, liberalism, and secularism, but they don't own those ideas. It is self-evident that they're governments work, hundreds of thousands of Arab Muslims leave our region for there. So why not provide it here? some of the best minds of our region leave because they're ideas run counter to ancient thinking. I cannot even begin to tell you the number of Saudi's, both men and women, who've gone to do their Bachelor, Master's, PhD in America, to return to Saudi to work, only to return to the West a decade or short later. the BEST minds are leaving Fize! and virtually all of them, men and women, have to play by your archaic cultural rules otherwise they risk being ostracized or worse. Imagine living with you your own beliefs and having to keep everything in because God forbid you might offend the backward and arrogantly ignorant (who go about their lives being unchallenged).

We were once the center of knowledge in the ENTIRE world, we had the best medicine, and standard of living, 2/3rds of the visible stars in the night sky have an Arabic name, this is all true and we should all be proud of this fact. But it didn't come because we had that much more blind faith, it did not come because we valued our tribes to such a xenophobic degree. we had it because we were open and cosmopolitan society. We lost that and since then we value revelation above all things, and we put investigation and being cosmopolitan to the side.

Like it or not we live in a globalized world, a marketplace of economics, religions, ideas, ideologies of all stripes. the days of living like bedu and traveling the desert or living around an oasis (as in my families case) are long gone. and we can sit back and blame the West or the Al Saud's for tainting us all we want. It doesn't change the reality.

the good news though, is that your fear of the 'kufr' spewing people, will only get worse in the Arab world (not just Saudi), if we are to compete with the rest of the world we have to be more open, and with that comes the exchange of ideas. Which is why, and i'll reiterate it again, good luck using silence tactics of calling people kufir's, or stereotyping them into boxes (well he's American... well he's Azdi's.. etc etc). Because it's only going to get worse, if that's all you have in your arsenal to fire back with, your going to ineveitably lose the arguement every.time.

Cultures and tribes no longer live in bubbles of isolation, i'm sorry to burst this news to you.

your fear of the loss of the tribal culture is only going to grow, and not because of me. The environment itself is not designed to keep it sheltered.

that's it i'm done with this. I invite you Fize to travel the world when you can and read Western literature from it's source, not simply whatever your local guy tells you in al Hasa or Asir or wherever you get your ideas from.i strongly recommend Thomas Paine, John Locke, and Thomas Hobbe - don't simply discount them because they're Western that's what you'd called xenophobia and being tribal.

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.

Mark Twain

------------

To answer Brosepherous Rex, yes i am Saudi, it's a nationality, not a race. i'm half Arab Saudi and half White American. In America, Arab is considered white by the census.

I grew up in Saudi, went through the Saudi education system until just about finishing middle school, and i often travel back and forth between America and Saudi, visiting friends and family, both religious and non (in both).

I wasn't raised to think tribally, i was never taught to discount someone because of their tribe, their religion/lack of, their ethnciity, their sex, but only on their character and the merit of their ideas. When the Saudi kids would scream and yell and cus out the Hindi worker, my mother would never allow me to be that. so blame Western liberal junk thinking for that as well....

I was also never denied untampered-with knowledge of the world from either my Saudi extended family in Al Hasa, my American family in Minnesota, or my immediate family. I used to get encyclopedia's as a gifts for birthdays and Eid's. So i guess that makes even the more religious conservative members of my Saudi family as kufir spewers as well.

I excelled in religious education, at one point i could recite the Quran from front cover to the back, and i have a good knowledge of the Sunnah. so it's always humerous to hear people accuse me of ignorance whenever it suits their arguement.

---------------

EDIT: Fize you may have the final word, and you can call me whatever name you like, but you are very tribalistic just based on your words - even as you say you are not. it's clear when it comes to government and culture we value very different things. But you seem to have this weird conclusion that being liberal/secular means your automatically in cahoots with the dictators, and that only religious hypocrits could side with them as well.

#131 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -

How very thorough... you seem to be very thoughtful for your Eastern side, which is refreshing, but I would say it is for all the wrong reasons.

Why you care is absolutely beyond me, since your school of thought j!zz for the Western style of living, that which you have. You should stick to the US and leave this place behind is what I'd advice. Maybe you lived a sheltered lifestyle (hellooo Americanoooo) and that's why you don't wanna forget it. In the end I guess, it's all up to you.

You really don't know how Arab tribes work... now that's just... just stay in America dude. Why do you give two sh!ts about this place? I don't want to be mean but we don't really like you.sad.gif

Oh and BTW, you should care about tribes and their land, Asir is my hometown, you should care about what the people of the land think before you walk into it, don't you? Living in Asir as a liberal? That's a big no no...

Oh well, you have the jinsiyaah, 7asafah wallah lao ra7t le jawi can asraf but oh well indeed. Just another liberal I guess. Tried to reason with you.

edit: the above post is a pure skimming of your paragraphs (fast reading, cannot gauge & reply at current time, PM if you really want us to talk about KSA more)

I'll just adress this:

EDIT: Fize you may have the final word, and you can call me whatever name you like, but you are very tribalistic just based on your words - even as you say you are not. it's clear when it comes to government and culture we value very different things. But you seem to have this weird conclusion that being liberal/secular means your automatically in cahoots with the dictators, and that only religious hypocrits could side with them as well.

I am not tribalistic, LEARN HOW TRIBES WORK, YOU'RE A SAUDI DAMMIT. My tribes own Asir, as in native people, literally from the ancient days of Saba'a, Al Azd went there and grew and populated the land. While it is currently under the rule of a royal family, it is still my home and I will assert my status over it as it is with other tribes. The royal family knows best not to object this, it's called a bay2a (although we all know this one is forced as hell).

That's what tribalism is in this god forsaken country. Please understand. Salabah is no good my friend, absolutely no good. =-=

So if a liberal lives in Asir, I want to know who the heck he is and why he thinks that way, 98% of the time it is some Ajim espoused by the monarchy to go there and write and preach his liberal gospel. This is the current situation in Riyadh and (heavily) Jeddah. As tribes stick together, we call out on these ajam whenever we can to stem this "kufir/par-kufir/heretical" tide that is massively funded by the gov and their respective dictators. It's outright opression.

The rest, you're right. I supscribe to MB-style Islamism. Any sellout, stays a sellout. Liberal, Muslim, Shiekh, homo Wahhabi, Shi3i, or whatever.

#132 Posted by GazaAli (22540 posts) -

Religion is not compatible with democracy. It's a theocracy with "god" at the top.

It's not that christianity is more peaceful, it's that western christians are far less devoted to their religion. They have become more and more secular.

Blue-Sky
I love you, seriously. This is what I have been trying to say for the past few days. I like how Christians like to view themselves as progressive and how they fit well in today's world, while in fact they simply don't have the balls to follow their religion properly.
#133 Posted by GazaAli (22540 posts) -

How very thorough... you seem to be very thoughtful for your Eastern side, which is refreshing, but I would say it is for all the wrong reasons.

Why you care is absolutely beyond me, since your school of thought j!zz for the Western style of living, that which you have. You should stick to the US and leave this place behind is what I'd advice. Maybe you lived a sheltered lifestyle (hellooo Americanoooo) and that's why you don't wanna forget it. In the end I guess, it's all up to you.

You really don't know how Arab tribes work... now that's just... just stay in America dude. Why do you give two sh!ts about this place? I don't want to be mean but we don't really like you.sad.gif

Oh and BTW, you should care about tribes and their land, Asir is my hometown, you should care about what the people of the land think before you walk into it, don't you? Living in Asir as a liberal? That's a big no no...

Oh well, you have the jinsiyaah, 7asafah wallah lao ra7t le jawi can asraf but oh well indeed. Just another liberal I guess. Tried to reason with you.

Victorious_Fize
You know, I do not know what Saudifury said to make you made this post, but I do know his way of thinking. I say we as Muslims should not give up on people that easily. Being liberal does not equal blasphemy.
#134 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -
[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

How very thorough... you seem to be very thoughtful for your Eastern side, which is refreshing, but I would say it is for all the wrong reasons.

Why you care is absolutely beyond me, since your school of thought j!zz for the Western style of living, that which you have. You should stick to the US and leave this place behind is what I'd advice. Maybe you lived a sheltered lifestyle (hellooo Americanoooo) and that's why you don't wanna forget it. In the end I guess, it's all up to you.

You really don't know how Arab tribes work... now that's just... just stay in America dude. Why do you give two sh!ts about this place? I don't want to be mean but we don't really like you.sad.gif

Oh and BTW, you should care about tribes and their land, Asir is my hometown, you should care about what the people of the land think before you walk into it, don't you? Living in Asir as a liberal? That's a big no no...

Oh well, you have the jinsiyaah, 7asafah wallah lao ra7t le jawi can asraf but oh well indeed. Just another liberal I guess. Tried to reason with you.

GazaAli
You know, I do not know what Saudifury said to make you made this post, but I do know his way of thinking. I say we as Muslims should not give up on people that easily. Being liberal does not equal blasphemy.

Oh I stopped hoping a long time ago. Twitter can show very disgusting people. =-= I just thought I'd give him a piece of advice. I mean, liberalism, Saudi Arabia, pffffft. Just know, nationalism will ruin our brotherhood. If this country gets ruled by secular nationalist, it'll be just any other Eastern Khaliji country. Just look at Egypt with MB, I'm not saying heaven have happened on earth. But you know what the MB strives to do. And it's actually working its ass off day and night. I mean, gosh, you're a "real" Arab, you know how us Khalijis are like, don't you? CAN YOU IMAGINE IF WE DIDN'T HAVE ISLAM TO SET US RIGHT??? I cling to the hope where we all unite and prosper. Saudifury doesn't see it but I and many others do. ^_^
#135 Posted by thebest31406 (3323 posts) -
[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="MannyDelgado"]I reiterate: how does that make the assertion that the Middle East is non-democratic any less true? You're completely missing the point, which is that it remains the case irrespective of its causes.MannyDelgado
Yeah but that can't be your central point; the ME is non-democratic; you wanna discuss all the ways they lack democracy but conveniently, you don't wanna discuss how or why.

Oh, piss off, f*ckface. I just saw that your post made no sense and pointed this out, and now you're clumsily trying to wriggle out of it.

"piss off, f*ckface..." are you mad?
#136 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -
INB4 he used u mad so i win
#137 Posted by K0PaSk4 (15641 posts) -

Religion is not compatible with democracy. It's a theocracy with "god" at the top.

It's not that christianity is more peaceful, it's that western christians are far less devoted to their religion. They have become more and more secular.

Blue-Sky

This is a very good point, well said Mr. Blue-Sky. :)

#138 Posted by Sagem28 (10498 posts) -

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

:| Since when does the west adhere to one way of life? Christians' way of life is not compatible with liberalism either. If you want to go to the west you have to abide by the law. Other than that you can have whatever way of life you want.

Mike-uk

Christians don't blow up buildings.....

That is the most untrue statement I have ever read on this site.

You're gonna love System Wars than.

#139 Posted by Stevo_the_gamer (42636 posts) -

[QUOTE="MannyDelgado"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Now I realize he's just another "Arab" (by language and association more than blood) in KSA that embraces nationalistic liberal (think Turkish CHP) views, they usually do that. I hate those people because they oppose Islam.Victorious_Fize
Nice to see we have some Muslims here to show us that OP was right

I'm not one to contest otherwise as I don't particularly like liberalism, but you do realize CHP is a party majorly supported by Muslims/cultural Muslims/people of Muslim origin, don't you?

Wat.

#140 Posted by MannyDelgado (1250 posts) -
>mfw Saudi is answering at length and in depth, and Fize just responds to him with streams of cheap canards
#141 Posted by Sagem28 (10498 posts) -

>mfwMannyDelgado

Seriously ?

#142 Posted by BossPerson (9445 posts) -

I wonder what Frize thinks of Jamal Abdel Nasser....

#143 Posted by wis3boi (31118 posts) -

This thread is f*cking sad to read. SaudiFury gets +1000000 internets for being a voice of reason in an ocean of bronze age ideals

#144 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -

[@SaudiFury]

just stay in America dude. Why do you give two sh!ts about this place? I don't want to be mean but we don't really like you.sad.gif

Living in Asir as a liberal? That's a big no no...

Victorious_Fize

And you're telling me you're not elitist? That you can't even see your elitism is sad, but I suppose it's nothing to be surprised about. Moreover, who gives a damn about what you're saying about tribes? It's entirely irrelevant here. Your problem is that you keep pretending that an elitist us-versus-them attitude isn't tribalistic. Tribalism is a much more abstract idea than you think.

Also, you really need to stop equating social liberal views with the support of oppressive rulers. You're just like those people who equate socialism with making everyone poor.

#145 Posted by wis3boi (31118 posts) -

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[@SaudiFury]

just stay in America dude. Why do you give two sh!ts about this place? I don't want to be mean but we don't really like you.sad.gif

Living in Asir as a liberal? That's a big no no...

ghoklebutter

And you're telling me you're not elitist? That you can't even see your elitism is sad, but I suppose it's nothing to be surprised about. Moreover, who gives a damn about what you're saying about tribes? It's entirely irrelevant here. Your problem is that you keep pretending that an elitist us-versus-them attitude isn't tribalistic. Tribalism is a much more abstract idea than you think.

Also, you really need to stop equating social liberal views with the support of oppressive rulers. You're just like those people who equate socialism with making everyone poor.

I really hope he's trolling. If not, that is some of the worst brainwashing I've witnessed in my time

#146 Posted by Victorious_Fize (6118 posts) -
I just love how Americans, lament me, for being a Saudi, that tries to talk another Saudi out of liberalism. Brainwashing, elitism, and someone mentioned Nasserism? Haaa, gotta love OT.
>mfw Saudi is answering at length and in depth, and Fize just responds to him with streams of cheap canardsMannyDelgado
He brings nothing new for me. If wanted massive stream of liberal bull shoved at me, I'll read some column on al watan. I'm not really that attentive for liberals...
#147 Posted by LJS9502_basic (150374 posts) -

:| Since when does the west adhere to one way of life? Christians' way of life is not compatible with liberalism either. If you want to go to the west you have to abide by the law. Other than that you can have whatever way of life you want.

GazaAli
lol trolling much?
#148 Posted by Riverwolf007 (23537 posts) -

i don't think the religious will ever get what it is like to sit here and be in the middle of two giant groups of superstitious people that both have holy books that say there will be a preordained giant apocalyptic confrontation with the unbelievers.

do you understand where that might concern some of us?

can you see where there might be some of us that wish you would knock it off with all this crap?

does it make sense that we might wish you would get your wisdom from some other source than a bunch of ancient ill educated sheep shaggers?

#149 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -

I just love how Americans, lament me, for being a Saudi, that tries to talk another Saudi out of liberalism. Brainwashing, elitism, and someone mentioned Nasserism? Haaa, gotta love OT.Victorious_Fize

No, it's your childish, elitist nonsense that I loathe, not your disapproval of SaudiFury's espousal of social liberal views.

#150 Posted by MannyDelgado (1250 posts) -
[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] He brings nothing new for me. If wanted massive stream of liberal bull shoved at me, I'll read some column on al watan. I'm not really that attentive for liberals...

Well, obviously you're not going to percieve him as bringing anything new to you if you're 'not really that attentive for liberals'. Perhaps if you paid attention to anything other than theocratic horsesh*t, it might do you some good. Who knows? You might even drag yourself out of the dark ages. Anything is possible!