This topic is locked from further discussion.
Even without the housing bubble your economy was in the negative and the cost of war increased your debt by the trillions. That ain't pocket change.m25105
You seem to conflate the economy with the Federal Gov't deficit, (as economic growth was well in the black) which only cements my previous suspicions regarding your knowledgeability pertaining to economics in general. And a few trillion, while a tad more than pocket change, is still quite easily manageable.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="m25105"] And how do you know that? Got a crystal ball that can show you an alternative world without religion?m25105That is kind of what the entire OP goes into detail about. But yes - historically speaking, most atrocities are the result of dogmatic ideology. Religion is one of the oldest dogmatic ideologies around. Moreover, religion is something that needlessly divides humanity, which creates unneeded conflicts and disputes. Really? What atrocities? No wait let me guess. The Crusades or the Inquisition, right? The only cause of the worlds problem has is and always will be, greed. Sure, that might be the ultimate cause. But the crusades and the inquisition don't happen without the catholic church and Islam. Religion is what divided the two parties in both of these cases (and in the case of the inquisition the Jews as well). At the end of the day we are all human, but throughout the course of history we have developed these social constructs that needlessly create divisions. Religion is one of those social constructs. Not only that, but because of the dogmatism that is inherent with religion, it gives an incredible amount of unchecked authority to certain institutions.
Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
let me know what you think when you grow up. I want to see how much it's changed.
I am curious as well.let me know what you think when you grow up. I want to see how much it's changed.
StRaItJaCkEt36
Really? What atrocities? No wait let me guess. The Crusades or the Inquisition, right? The only cause of the worlds problem has is and always will be, greed. Sure, that might be the ultimate cause. But the crusades and the inquisition don't happen without the catholic church and Islam. Religion is what divided the two parties in both of these cases (and in the case of the inquisition the Jews as well). At the end of the day we are all human, but throughout the course of history we have developed these social constructs that needlessly create divisions. Religion is one of those social constructs. Not only that, but because of the dogmatism that is inherent with religion, it gives an incredible amount of unchecked authority to certain institutions.[QUOTE="m25105"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] That is kind of what the entire OP goes into detail about. But yes - historically speaking, most atrocities are the result of dogmatic ideology. Religion is one of the oldest dogmatic ideologies around. Moreover, religion is something that needlessly divides humanity, which creates unneeded conflicts and disputes. -Sun_Tzu-
Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
Youre knowledge of these important events is really shallow if thats how you think those things happened. But offcourse, hipster atheists know all.:roll:Youre knowledge of these important events is really shallow if thats how you think those things happened. But offcourse, hipster atheists know all.:roll:GulliversTravel
What is the phrase that means a person is trying to discredit a claim made by someone by pointing out a negative quality/characteristic of the person claiming it.
how fast did this thread catch fire?
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Sure, that might be the ultimate cause. But the crusades and the inquisition don't happen without the catholic church and Islam. Religion is what divided the two parties in both of these cases (and in the case of the inquisition the Jews as well). At the end of the day we are all human, but throughout the course of history we have developed these social constructs that needlessly create divisions. Religion is one of those social constructs. Not only that, but because of the dogmatism that is inherent with religion, it gives an incredible amount of unchecked authority to certain institutions.[QUOTE="m25105"] Really? What atrocities? No wait let me guess. The Crusades or the Inquisition, right? The only cause of the worlds problem has is and always will be, greed.GulliversTravel
Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
Youre knowledge of these important events is really shallow if thats how you think those things happened. But offcourse, hipster atheists know all.:roll: Really now? So the centuries of antisemitism prior to the Third Reich had nothing to do with the holocaust? Did all of that antisemitism just come out of nowhere once Hitler got into power?Really now? So the centuries of antisemitism prior to the Third Reich had nothing to do with the holocaust? Did all of that antisemitism just come out of nowhere once Hitler got into power? -Sun_Tzu-See how much you can learn by coming to OT? Hitler invented antisemitism!
Really? What atrocities? No wait let me guess. The Crusades or the Inquisition, right? The only cause of the worlds problem has is and always will be, greed. Sure, that might be the ultimate cause. But the crusades and the inquisition don't happen without the catholic church and Islam. Religion is what divided the two parties in both of these cases (and in the case of the inquisition the Jews as well). At the end of the day we are all human, but throughout the course of history we have developed these social constructs that needlessly create divisions. Religion is one of those social constructs. Not only that, but because of the dogmatism that is inherent with religion, it gives an incredible amount of unchecked authority to certain institutions.[QUOTE="m25105"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] That is kind of what the entire OP goes into detail about. But yes - historically speaking, most atrocities are the result of dogmatic ideology. Religion is one of the oldest dogmatic ideologies around. Moreover, religion is something that needlessly divides humanity, which creates unneeded conflicts and disputes. -Sun_Tzu-
Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
That's kind of a stretch. You could make a similar argument about anti-semitism saying that it wouldnt exist if judaism didnt exist. The jewish people were peresecuted by the romans long before the romans ever adopted christianity. And I dont think they went after the jewish people because of some perceived threat to the sun god apollo. People are naturally divisive. If it's not one perceive difference, it will be another. Wars can be fought over religion, but in the end, I still think they are more about power and wealth than any particular religous ideal. Even the crusades was more of an economic and geopolitcal conflict than a purely religous war. I think the church was a powerful institution back in that day. Spreading "christianity" basically meant spreading their power and influence.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Sure, that might be the ultimate cause. But the crusades and the inquisition don't happen without the catholic church and Islam. Religion is what divided the two parties in both of these cases (and in the case of the inquisition the Jews as well). At the end of the day we are all human, but throughout the course of history we have developed these social constructs that needlessly create divisions. Religion is one of those social constructs. Not only that, but because of the dogmatism that is inherent with religion, it gives an incredible amount of unchecked authority to certain institutions.[QUOTE="m25105"] Really? What atrocities? No wait let me guess. The Crusades or the Inquisition, right? The only cause of the worlds problem has is and always will be, greed.sonicare
Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
That's kind of a stretch. You could make a similar argument about anti-semitism saying that it wouldnt exist if judaism didnt exist. The jewish people were peresecuted by the romans long before the romans ever adopted christianity. And I dont think they went after the jewish people because of some perceived threat to the sun god apollo. People are naturally divisive. If it's not one perceive difference, it will be another. Wars can be fought over religion, but in the end, I still think they are more about power and wealth than any particular religous ideal. Even the crusades was more of an economic and geopolitcal conflict than a purely religous war. I think the church was a powerful institution back in that day. Spreading "christianity" basically meant spreading their power and influence. Well sure, antisemitism wouldn't exist if judaism didn't exist. And yes Jewish people weren't persecuted because they were viewed as a perceived threat to the sun god apollo. They were persecuted because they were "different." They weren't different in any biological way *queue Shylock monologue*, but they were simply of a foreign culture. Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.I would never argue that without religion the world would be perfect - but it would make things so much easier. Sure there would still be social constructs that would arbitrarily divide up the human race, but it's much easier for two parties to settle - say - a land dispute, if each party doesn't believe that the other party is the spawn of Satan and that an omnimax deity is on their side.
That's kind of a stretch. You could make a similar argument about anti-semitism saying that it wouldnt exist if judaism didnt exist. The jewish people were peresecuted by the romans long before the romans ever adopted christianity. And I dont think they went after the jewish people because of some perceived threat to the sun god apollo. People are naturally divisive. If it's not one perceive difference, it will be another. Wars can be fought over religion, but in the end, I still think they are more about power and wealth than any particular religous ideal. Even the crusades was more of an economic and geopolitcal conflict than a purely religous war. I think the church was a powerful institution back in that day. Spreading "christianity" basically meant spreading their power and influence. Well sure, antisemitism wouldn't exist if judaism didn't exist. And yes Jewish people weren't persecuted because they were viewed as a perceived threat to the sun god apollo. They were persecuted because they were "different." They weren't different in any biological way *queue Shylock monologue*, but they were simply of a foreign culture. Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Sure, that might be the ultimate cause. But the crusades and the inquisition don't happen without the catholic church and Islam. Religion is what divided the two parties in both of these cases (and in the case of the inquisition the Jews as well). At the end of the day we are all human, but throughout the course of history we have developed these social constructs that needlessly create divisions. Religion is one of those social constructs. Not only that, but because of the dogmatism that is inherent with religion, it gives an incredible amount of unchecked authority to certain institutions.
Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
-Sun_Tzu-
I would never argue that without religion the world would be perfect - but it would make things so much easier. Sure there would still be social constructs that would arbitrarily divide up the human race, but it's much easier for two parties to settle - say - a land dispute, if each party doesn't believe that the other party is the spawn of Satan and that an omnimax deity is on their side.
Meh, the whole idea that atheism = logic is proven wrong by your post. We are all human and no one is capable of being perfectly cognitive. For example, you keep on referring to anti-semitism and the church. Yet anti-semitism is the discrimination of Jews based on their race. The catholic church, when it did discriminate against jews, it is anti-judaism, based on their religion. So, if jews convert, there will not be any discrimination against them. In contrast, anti-semitism is based on race, so it does not matter if the jewish person is a practicing christian, it is all about genetic links. So, say having a jewish father, but not mother, would make one jewish, a belief Orthodox Jews do not share.
Thus, nazi anti-semitism, while I am sure has links to anti-judaism of the church, can't be explained by justreligion. It is a simiplification of nazi ideology. After all, the nazi's hated a ton of other ethnic groups; the gypsies were nearly wiped out, the urban slavic population was supposed to be starved to death, the rural slavs were to become slaves for the Germans etc. It was more of a modern concept tied to race, not religion. In fact, the Catholic church position was never to wipe out the Jews. According to St. Augustine, there were supposed to be kept around as "living proof of Christianity", only to be converted in the end (the apocalypse).
So, I am not saying that atheism is wrong, but the idea that atheists are so smart, logical and critical is just a load of **** Its just a belief/ideology, most atheists, like the topic creator, don't even know the modern synthesis of evolution. I mean really, all the TP can say is "natural selection".
PS. Also the Inquisition had no authority over Jews, it was charged with rooting out heresy among Christians.
Well sure, antisemitism wouldn't exist if judaism didn't exist. And yes Jewish people weren't persecuted because they were viewed as a perceived threat to the sun god apollo. They were persecuted because they were "different." They weren't different in any biological way *queue Shylock monologue*, but they were simply of a foreign culture. Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
[QUOTE="sonicare"] That's kind of a stretch. You could make a similar argument about anti-semitism saying that it wouldnt exist if judaism didnt exist. The jewish people were peresecuted by the romans long before the romans ever adopted christianity. And I dont think they went after the jewish people because of some perceived threat to the sun god apollo. People are naturally divisive. If it's not one perceive difference, it will be another. Wars can be fought over religion, but in the end, I still think they are more about power and wealth than any particular religous ideal. Even the crusades was more of an economic and geopolitcal conflict than a purely religous war. I think the church was a powerful institution back in that day. Spreading "christianity" basically meant spreading their power and influence.Nikalai_88
I would never argue that without religion the world would be perfect - but it would make things so much easier. Sure there would still be social constructs that would arbitrarily divide up the human race, but it's much easier for two parties to settle - say - a land dispute, if each party doesn't believe that the other party is the spawn of Satan and that an omnimax deity is on their side.
Meh, the whole idea that atheism = logic is proven wrong by your post. We are all human and no one is capable of being perfectly cognitive. For example, you keep on referring to anti-semitism and the church. Yet anti-semitism is the discrimination of Jews based on their race. The catholic church, when it did discriminate against jews, it is anti-judaism, based on their religion. So, if jews convert, there will not be any discrimination against them. In contrast, anti-semitism is based on race, so it does not matter if the jewish person is a practicing christian, it is all about genetic links. So, say having a jewish father, but not mother, would make one jewish, a belief Orthodox Jews do not share.
Thus, nazi anti-semitism, while I am sure has links to anti-judaism of the church, can't be explained by justreligion. It is a simiplification of nazi ideology. After all, the nazi's hated a ton of other ethnic groups; the gypsies were nearly wiped out, the urban slavic population was supposed to be starved to death, the rural slavs were to become slaves for the Germans etc. It was more of a modern concept tied to race, not religion. In fact, the Catholic church position was never to wipe out the Jews. According to St. Augustine, there were supposed to be kept around as "living proof of Christianity", only to be converted in the end (the apocalypse).
So, I am not saying that atheism is wrong, but the idea that atheists are so smart, logical and critical is just a load of **** Its just a belief/ideology, most atheists, like the topic creator, don't even know the modern synthesis of evolution. I mean really, all the TP can say is "natural selection".
PS. Also the Inquisition had no authority over Jews, it was charged with rooting out heresy among Christians.
The definition of antisemitism does encompass the Jewish faith as well.Now to be honest, I really don't see what your post has to do with mine. The only point I'm making about the holocaust is that it was a culmination of centuries of antisemitism in Europe, which was largely propagated by religious leaders. You can't kill 6 million people without anyone else noticing. Everyone in Europe knew that something was up. One day there'd be a Jewish family living next door and the next day the house would be vacant. Large scale genocide can only happen within a particular cultural context. In this case, that particular context was an antisemitic Europe. Here you have the Jews, who before Hitler had already been charged with usury, deicide, and everything in between.
Not many Europeans had much love for the Jewish people. And the Jewish people knew this as well. Zionism - the wanting to escape Europe and establish a nation for Jews, was not a concept that was created after the holocaust happened. Modern zionism was created decades before Fascism even existed, let alone Nazism. The writing was already on the wall for some time. Hitler was in many ways the climax of antisemitism in Europe; he wasn't its origin.
And you brought up the gypsies - everything I've said about antisemitism can be said in some capacity about the gypsies as well.
Really? What atrocities? No wait let me guess. The Crusades or the Inquisition, right? The only cause of the worlds problem has is and always will be, greed.m25105Sure, that might be the ultimate cause. But the crusades and the inquisition don't happen without the catholic church and Islam. Religion is what divided the two parties in both of these cases (and in the case of the inquisition the Jews as well). At the end of the day we are all human, but throughout the course of history we have developed these social constructs that needlessly create divisions. Religion is one of those social constructs. Not only that, but because of the dogmatism that is inherent with religion, it gives an incredible amount of unchecked authority to certain institutions.
Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
Youre knowledge of these important events is really shallow if thats how you think those things happened. But offcourse, hipster atheists know all.:roll: The high road has already been taken here, so I'm just going to posit that you're a dumb c*nt, and a waste of oxygen. It would be very nice if an angry mob fed you into a wood-chipper, feet first.This is just as anti-semetic as what many misguided religious leaders have said. According to your logic, Jewish people are responsible for their own persecution. That is, unless you're selectively choosing to remove Judaism as a religion, focusing instead on the Christian menace as the cause. Which in either case, is potentially an offensive stance to Jews. Either Judaism isn't a religion, or it's their own fault -- your implications, not mine.Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
-Sun_Tzu-
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]This is just as anti-semetic as what many misguided religious leaders have said. According to your logic, Jewish people are responsible for their own persecution. That is, unless you're selectively choosing to remove Judaism as a religion, focusing instead on the Christian menace as the cause. Which in either case, is potentially an offensive stance to Jews. Either Judaism isn't a religion, or it's their own fault -- your implications, not mine. Yeah, I'm sure a completely neutral reading of Sun's post would come up with that interpretation. Or whatever.Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
musicalmac
Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
This is just as anti-semetic as what many misguided religious leaders have said. According to your logic, Jewish people are responsible for their own persecution. That is, unless you're selectively choosing to remove Judaism as a religion, focusing instead on the Christian menace as the cause. Which in either case, is potentially an offensive stance to Jews. Either Judaism isn't a religion, or it's their own fault -- your implications, not mine. Speaking as a jew, I disagree, and wonder if you're on drugs right now.Yeah, I'm sure a completely neutral reading of Sun's post would come up with that interpretation. Or whatever.xaosThat's very insightful.
Speaking as a jew, I disagree, and wonder if you're on drugs right now.Frame_DraggerI find that interesting. It seems to me you may not understand the deeper implications behind Sun's post. And no, I am not on drugs.
[QUOTE="xaos"] Yeah, I'm sure a completely neutral reading of Sun's post would come up with that interpretation. Or whatever.musicalmacThat's very insightful. Well, I don't see how you drew those implications from the text you quoted, like at all; can you elaborate on how you came up with that based upon the quoted text?
[QUOTE="xaos"] That's very insightful.musicalmacIt's highly accurate, and a fine riposte to your blithering idiocy.
[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] Speaking as a jew, I disagree, and wonder if you're on drugs right now.musicalmacI find that interesting. It seems to me you may not understand the deeper implications behind Sun's post. And no, I am not on drugs.
That's a pity... have you ever considered that you're unfit to be a regular user, never mind a mod? In fact, I wouldn't let you cross a single lane of traffic without assistahnce if I didn't have so little regard for your life.
Well, I don't see how you drew those implications from the text you quoted, like at all; can you elaborate on how you came up with that based upon the quoted text?xaosThere is a liberal intermingling of the terms associated with Christianity, Judaism, and religion as a whole. Based on the text I quoted, this is the key phrase --
Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.Text_In_Question
[QUOTE="xaos"] Well, I don't see how you drew those implications from the text you quoted, like at all; can you elaborate on how you came up with that based upon the quoted text?musicalmacThere is a liberal intermingling of the terms associated with Christianity, Judaism, and religion as a whole. Based on the text I quoted, this is the key phrase --
Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.Text_In_Question
Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.Your-BetterAnd more which acts to clarify what you've taken utterly out of context.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]This is just as anti-semetic as what many misguided religious leaders have said. According to your logic, Jewish people are responsible for their own persecution. That is, unless you're selectively choosing to remove Judaism as a religion, focusing instead on the Christian menace as the cause. Which in either case, is potentially an offensive stance to Jews. Either Judaism isn't a religion, or it's their own fault -- your implications, not mine. :? I don't see how you can get that impression from my post. First of all, I am Jewish (and not of the self-hating variety). And I haven't even remotely implied that Jewish people are responsible for their own persecution, nor am I attributing the cause of all Jewish persecution to Christianity. All I am saying is that if Europe wasn't the antisemitic cesspool that it was when Hitler came into power chances are the holocaust wouldn't have happened. That's not to say that Christianity is guilty of causing the holocaust, but Christian leaders were partially responsible for creating a culture in Europe where something like a holocaust was possible.Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
musicalmac
That's kind of a stretch. You could make a similar argument about anti-semitism saying that it wouldnt exist if judaism didnt exist. The jewish people were peresecuted by the romans long before the romans ever adopted christianity. And I dont think they went after the jewish people because of some perceived threat to the sun god apollo. People are naturally divisive. If it's not one perceive difference, it will be another. Wars can be fought over religion, but in the end, I still think they are more about power and wealth than any particular religous ideal. Even the crusades was more of an economic and geopolitcal conflict than a purely religous war. I think the church was a powerful institution back in that day. Spreading "christianity" basically meant spreading their power and influence. Well sure, antisemitism wouldn't exist if judaism didn't exist. And yes Jewish people weren't persecuted because they were viewed as a perceived threat to the sun god apollo. They were persecuted because they were "different." They weren't different in any biological way *queue Shylock monologue*, but they were simply of a foreign culture. Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Sure, that might be the ultimate cause. But the crusades and the inquisition don't happen without the catholic church and Islam. Religion is what divided the two parties in both of these cases (and in the case of the inquisition the Jews as well). At the end of the day we are all human, but throughout the course of history we have developed these social constructs that needlessly create divisions. Religion is one of those social constructs. Not only that, but because of the dogmatism that is inherent with religion, it gives an incredible amount of unchecked authority to certain institutions.
Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand. It's much less likely that gays would be persecuted if people didn't think that God hated them. Even slave owners in America would use the bible to justify slavery. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous tool that can be used to create despise and hatred for certain aspects of society that religious leaders don't approve of.
-Sun_Tzu-
I would never argue that without religion the world would be perfect - but it would make things so much easier. Sure there would still be social constructs that would arbitrarily divide up the human race, but it's much easier for two parties to settle - say - a land dispute, if each party doesn't believe that the other party is the spawn of Satan and that an omnimax deity is on their side.
The Jews were not persecuted by the Romans simply because they were a foreign culture. It was because the Roman emperor was considered a God and had to be acknowledged as one. The Jews did not acknowledge the emperor as such and on top of that, one appeared claiming to be the literal son of God. Hopefully, you understand the implications, there.Just to clarify.
The total energy of the universe is probably zero; therefore, piss offThe big bang is simply an event, like a reaction. It needed mass/energy to take place. Scientists will never know where this mass/energy originated from. We can't look back far enough.
I'll say religion in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing. As a whole, at least the religion I follow has nothing but good intent for people. If you don't want to accept God that's fine. I'm not here to force you.
PS2_ROCKS
The big bang is simply an event, like a reaction. It needed mass/energy to take place. Scientists will never know where this mass/energy originated from. We can't look back far enough.
I'll say religion in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing. As a whole, at least the religion I follow has nothing but good intent for people. If you don't want to accept God that's fine. I'm not here to force you.
The total energy of the universe is probably zero; therefore, piss off LOL... this is a good answer.Well sure, antisemitism wouldn't exist if judaism didn't exist. And yes Jewish people weren't persecuted because they were viewed as a perceived threat to the sun god apollo. They were persecuted because they were "different." They weren't different in any biological way *queue Shylock monologue*, but they were simply of a foreign culture. Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
[QUOTE="sonicare"] That's kind of a stretch. You could make a similar argument about anti-semitism saying that it wouldnt exist if judaism didnt exist. The jewish people were peresecuted by the romans long before the romans ever adopted christianity. And I dont think they went after the jewish people because of some perceived threat to the sun god apollo. People are naturally divisive. If it's not one perceive difference, it will be another. Wars can be fought over religion, but in the end, I still think they are more about power and wealth than any particular religous ideal. Even the crusades was more of an economic and geopolitcal conflict than a purely religous war. I think the church was a powerful institution back in that day. Spreading "christianity" basically meant spreading their power and influence.BranKetra
I would never argue that without religion the world would be perfect - but it would make things so much easier. Sure there would still be social constructs that would arbitrarily divide up the human race, but it's much easier for two parties to settle - say - a land dispute, if each party doesn't believe that the other party is the spawn of Satan and that an omnimax deity is on their side.
The Jews were not persecuted by the Romans simply because they were a foreign culture. It was because the Roman emperor was considered a God and had to be acknowledged as one. The Jews did not acknowledge the emperor as such and on top of that, one appeared claiming to be the literal son of God. Hopefully, you understand the implications, there.Just to clarify.
Absolutely. The allegiances of the Jews were not necessarily aligned with those of the Romans. No disagreement from me there.I don't hate, I just think that your observation was half-apologia and all-non sequitir, at least in the absence of examples of what you mean. To help out, I'd say that the religious basis of the claims to territory in Israel show how Judaism can cause similar problems, but I don't think that this would be seen as particularly anti-Semitic except by particularly zealous folk.xaosI never defended Judaism, nor did I defend Christianity. In fact, I would agree that there are individuals from every religion have at one time caused others harm in some sense. Though I do appreciate your admission that some would see the post as anti-semetic.
Well sure, antisemitism wouldn't exist if judaism didn't exist. And yes Jewish people weren't persecuted because they were viewed as a perceived threat to the sun god apollo. They were persecuted because they were "different." They weren't different in any biological way *queue Shylock monologue*, but they were simply of a foreign culture. Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.[QUOTE="sonicare"]That's kind of a stretch. You could make a similar argument about anti-semitism saying that it wouldnt exist if judaism didnt exist. The jewish people were peresecuted by the romans long before the romans ever adopted christianity. And I dont think they went after the jewish people because of some perceived threat to the sun god apollo. People are naturally divisive. If it's not one perceive difference, it will be another. Wars can be fought over religion, but in the end, I still think they are more about power and wealth than any particular religous ideal. Even the crusades was more of an economic and geopolitcal conflict than a purely religous war. I think the church was a powerful institution back in that day. Spreading "christianity" basically meant spreading their power and influence.-Sun_Tzu-
I would never argue that without religion the world would be perfect - but it would make things so much easier. Sure there would still be social constructs that would arbitrarily divide up the human race, but it's much easier for two parties to settle - say - a land dispute, if each party doesn't believe that the other party is the spawn of Satan and that an omnimax deity is on their side.
But I think mankind is divisive by nature. Whether or not you have religion, man will simply find some other reason to dispute over perceived differences - cue nationalism, race, etc. Certainly religion can be problematic when you have extremists or literalists who tend to be anti-science, but that can happen with a wide variety of things. One aspect of religion that I do enjoy is a cultural aspect. While I dont believe in any tenets of any religion, I still like some of the traditions and such. Religion and culture are inseparable as religion is a part of culture. Probably a large aspect of most modern cultures derives from some religous aspect. We could eliminate a lot of perceived differences by having just one culture in the world, but would that be an enjoyable world to live in?
In fact, I would agree that there are individuals from every religion have at one time caused others harm in some sense.musicalmacwhat a silly thing to say
Though I do appreciate your admission that some would see the post as anti-semetic.musicalmacr u trollin
[QUOTE="xaos"] I don't hate, I just think that your observation was half-apologia and all-non sequitir, at least in the absence of examples of what you mean. To help out, I'd say that the religious basis of the claims to territory in Israel show how Judaism can cause similar problems, but I don't think that this would be seen as particularly anti-Semitic except by particularly zealous folk.musicalmacI never defended Judaism, nor did I defend Christianity. In fact, I would agree that there are individuals from every religion have at one time caused others harm in some sense. Though I do appreciate your admission that some would see the post as anti-semetic. Well, qualified by the fact that those people are irrational, I'm not sure why you'd be pleased by that. Some people would probably read this conversation as coded CIA communications, but I wouldn't really consider pointing them out to be useful in any way. Anyway, seems like you are more interested in semantic games, so I'll bow out here and you can have the final word.
[QUOTE="xaos"] I don't hate, I just think that your observation was half-apologia and all-non sequitir, at least in the absence of examples of what you mean. To help out, I'd say that the religious basis of the claims to territory in Israel show how Judaism can cause similar problems, but I don't think that this would be seen as particularly anti-Semitic except by particularly zealous folk.musicalmacI never defended Judaism, nor did I defend Christianity. In fact, I would agree that there are individuals from every religion have at one time caused others harm in some sense. Though I do appreciate your admission that some would see the post as anti-semetic. So in other words, "half apologia", plenty of as$hole, with a dash of ignorant reactionary to round out the flavor... with some snark that sounds as unforced coming from you as a come-on from a nun.
[QUOTE="musicalmac"]In fact, I would agree that there are individuals from every religion have at one time caused others harm in some sense.Jandurinwhat a silly thing to say
Though I do appreciate your admission that some would see the post as anti-semetic.musicalmacr u trollin Humiliating himself is a kind of trolling?
There is absolutely no reason to believe in a supernatural creator or any religion and they in fact negatively affect us in society on a daily basis. Briefly, religion is divisive, dangerous, and it discourages independent thought. However it is never too late to change, for atheism is the brilliant alternative. It is a way of thought that encourages the belief in evidential truth, use of logic, and can take us one step further to world peace. iliatay
That's a pretty ignorant view. First, you claim that there is absolutely no reason for them to believe what they do - which implies you yourself are omniscient and therefore quite possibly a god.
Second, you claim that religion is "divisive, dangerous, and it discourages independent thought," which it is not. People often corrupt a religion or use it to they're advantage. That is not in and of itself the religion's fault. Think of the people kill people, not guns, argument. Guns help, sure, but that does not mean that we should outlaw all firearms. To claim we should is both paranoid and ignorant.
Third, you fail to realize you just proposed Atheism as a religion. "...encourages the belief in evidential truth..." By definition, religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion).
Atheism is like being a hipster. You call yourself different only to later realize everybody thinks you're an arrogant ass. You are... a religious nut ^_^
[QUOTE="iliatay"] There is absolutely no reason to believe in a supernatural creator or any religion and they in fact negatively affect us in society on a daily basis. Briefly, religion is divisive, dangerous, and it discourages independent thought. However it is never too late to change, for atheism is the brilliant alternative. It is a way of thought that encourages the belief in evidential truth, use of logic, and can take us one step further to world peace. JusticeFromSeed
That's a pretty ignorant view. First, you claim that there is absolutely no reason for them to believe what they do - which implies you yourself are omniscient and therefore quite possibly a god.
Second, you claim that religion is "divisive, dangerous, and it discourages independent thought," which it is not. People often corrupt a religion or use it to they're advantage. That is not in and of itself the religion's fault. Think of the people kill people, not guns, argument. Guns help, sure, but that does not mean that we should outlaw all firearms. To claim we should is both paranoid and ignorant.
Third, you fail to realize you just proposed Atheism as a religion. "...encourages the belief in evidential truth..." By definition, religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion).
Atheism is like being a hipster. You call yourself different only to later realize everybody thinks you're an arrogant ass. You are... a religious nut ^_^
No reason to belive =/= reason to believe in absence. Nice try though... from there (if possible) you go downhill.I don't see how you can get that impression from my post. First of all, I am Jewish (and not of the self-hating variety). And I haven't even remotely implied that Jewish people are responsible for their own persecution, nor am I attributing the cause of all Jewish persecution to Christianity. All I am saying is that if Europe wasn't the antisemitic cesspool that it was when Hitler came into power chances are the holocaust wouldn't have happened. That's not to say that Christianity is guilty of causing the holocaust, but Christian leaders were partially responsible for creating a culture in Europe where something like a holocaust was possible. -Sun_Tzu-But that's not all you said. You attibuted Christian leaders to the European anti-semitism, which means you're pegging Christianity as the cause of the holocaust. You've stepped back now, saying that Christianity played a role, but wasn't the lone cause of the atrocities. I'm simply trying to sort through your post to get at the heart of what it is you're saying, as it was not clear to me originally (which is why I questioned it to begin with).
Well sure, antisemitism wouldn't exist if judaism didn't exist. And yes Jewish people weren't persecuted because they were viewed as a perceived threat to the sun god apollo. They were persecuted because they were "different." They weren't different in any biological way *queue Shylock monologue*, but they were simply of a foreign culture. Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
[QUOTE="sonicare"]That's kind of a stretch. You could make a similar argument about anti-semitism saying that it wouldnt exist if judaism didnt exist. The jewish people were peresecuted by the romans long before the romans ever adopted christianity. And I dont think they went after the jewish people because of some perceived threat to the sun god apollo. People are naturally divisive. If it's not one perceive difference, it will be another. Wars can be fought over religion, but in the end, I still think they are more about power and wealth than any particular religous ideal. Even the crusades was more of an economic and geopolitcal conflict than a purely religous war. I think the church was a powerful institution back in that day. Spreading "christianity" basically meant spreading their power and influence.sonicare
I would never argue that without religion the world would be perfect - but it would make things so much easier. Sure there would still be social constructs that would arbitrarily divide up the human race, but it's much easier for two parties to settle - say - a land dispute, if each party doesn't believe that the other party is the spawn of Satan and that an omnimax deity is on their side.
But I think mankind is divisive by nature. Whether or not you have religion, man will simply find some other reason to dispute over perceived differences - cue nationalism, race, etc. Certainly religion can be problematic when you have extremists or literalists who tend to be anti-science, but that can happen with a wide variety of things. One aspect of religion that I do enjoy is a cultural aspect. While I dont believe in any tenets of any religion, I still like some of the traditions and such. Religion and culture are inseparable as religion is a part of culture. Probably a large aspect of most modern cultures derives from some religous aspect. We could eliminate a lot of perceived differences by having just one culture in the world, but would that be an enjoyable world to live in?
I would disagree that it is human nature to be arbitrarily divisive, because certainly not everyone adopts that mode of thinking. In order for something to be of human nature it would have to be exhibited in the nature of all humans, by definition. And you're right that religion has a huge cultural aspect surrounding it. You can't even begin to understand western culture without familiarity with the bible. But going forward, I don't see a reason why you would need religion for culture to continue to thrive and diversify. It would just manifest itself in different ways.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]I don't see how you can get that impression from my post. First of all, I am Jewish (and not of the self-hating variety). And I haven't even remotely implied that Jewish people are responsible for their own persecution, nor am I attributing the cause of all Jewish persecution to Christianity. All I am saying is that if Europe wasn't the antisemitic cesspool that it was when Hitler came into power chances are the holocaust wouldn't have happened. That's not to say that Christianity is guilty of causing the holocaust, but Christian leaders were partially responsible for creating a culture in Europe where something like a holocaust was possible. musicalmacBut that's not all you said. You attibuted Christian leaders to the European anti-semitism, which means you're pegging Christianity as the cause of the holocaust. You've stepped back now, saying that Christianity played a role, but wasn't the lone cause of the atrocities. I'm simply trying to sort through your post to get at the heart of what it is you're saying, as it was not clear to me originally (which is why I questioned it to begin with). He would be pegging Christian LEADERS as creating an atmosphere which ALLOWED the holocaust to occur... you nitwit you.
Well sure, antisemitism wouldn't exist if judaism didn't exist. And yes Jewish people weren't persecuted because they were viewed as a perceived threat to the sun god apollo. They were persecuted because they were "different." They weren't different in any biological way *queue Shylock monologue*, but they were simply of a foreign culture. Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
[QUOTE="sonicare"]That's kind of a stretch. You could make a similar argument about anti-semitism saying that it wouldnt exist if judaism didnt exist. The jewish people were peresecuted by the romans long before the romans ever adopted christianity. And I dont think they went after the jewish people because of some perceived threat to the sun god apollo. People are naturally divisive. If it's not one perceive difference, it will be another. Wars can be fought over religion, but in the end, I still think they are more about power and wealth than any particular religous ideal. Even the crusades was more of an economic and geopolitcal conflict than a purely religous war. I think the church was a powerful institution back in that day. Spreading "christianity" basically meant spreading their power and influence.sonicare
I would never argue that without religion the world would be perfect - but it would make things so much easier. Sure there would still be social constructs that would arbitrarily divide up the human race, but it's much easier for two parties to settle - say - a land dispute, if each party doesn't believe that the other party is the spawn of Satan and that an omnimax deity is on their side.
But I think mankind is divisive by nature. Whether or not you have religion, man will simply find some other reason to dispute over perceived differences - cue nationalism, race, etc. Certainly religion can be problematic when you have extremists or literalists who tend to be anti-science, but that can happen with a wide variety of things. One aspect of religion that I do enjoy is a cultural aspect. While I dont believe in any tenets of any religion, I still like some of the traditions and such. Religion and culture are inseparable as religion is a part of culture. Probably a large aspect of most modern cultures derives from some religous aspect. We could eliminate a lot of perceived differences by having just one culture in the world, but would that be an enjoyable world to live in?
I would say you are more right than Sun is. Religion has historically been the main focus in a very small percentage of the wars/conflicts that have occurred. Most of the problems have been caused by greed for more or by need for more in regard to land, sustenance and resources. Then those are those conflicts fought for power. It's simply naive and simplistic to point a finger at religion and say it causes the problems. Even in those cases were religion is partially a cause there is usually something else underneath that contributes to or is the reason. People just can't get along well. Not one on one and certainly not in large societies. If this were possible then crime would be almost non-existent....[QUOTE="Nikalai_88"]
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Well sure, antisemitism wouldn't exist if judaism didn't exist. And yes Jewish people weren't persecuted because they were viewed as a perceived threat to the sun god apollo. They were persecuted because they were "different." They weren't different in any biological way *queue Shylock monologue*, but they were simply of a foreign culture. Religion isn't the only culprit of creating schisms in human society (this all applies to nationalism, racialism, sexism, ect), but it is one of the biggest offenders. Just imagine how much easier the Middle East crisis between Israel and Palestine would be if religion wasn't involved. People are blowing themselves up in Iraq because of a succession crisis that happened centuries ago after Muhammad died.
I would never argue that without religion the world would be perfect - but it would make things so much easier. Sure there would still be social constructs that would arbitrarily divide up the human race, but it's much easier for two parties to settle - say - a land dispute, if each party doesn't believe that the other party is the spawn of Satan and that an omnimax deity is on their side.
-Sun_Tzu-
Meh, the whole idea that atheism = logic is proven wrong by your post. We are all human and no one is capable of being perfectly cognitive. For example, you keep on referring to anti-semitism and the church. Yet anti-semitism is the discrimination of Jews based on their race. The catholic church, when it did discriminate against jews, it is anti-judaism, based on their religion. So, if jews convert, there will not be any discrimination against them. In contrast, anti-semitism is based on race, so it does not matter if the jewish person is a practicing christian, it is all about genetic links. So, say having a jewish father, but not mother, would make one jewish, a belief Orthodox Jews do not share.
Thus, nazi anti-semitism, while I am sure has links to anti-judaism of the church, can't be explained by justreligion. It is a simiplification of nazi ideology. After all, the nazi's hated a ton of other ethnic groups; the gypsies were nearly wiped out, the urban slavic population was supposed to be starved to death, the rural slavs were to become slaves for the Germans etc. It was more of a modern concept tied to race, not religion. In fact, the Catholic church position was never to wipe out the Jews. According to St. Augustine, there were supposed to be kept around as "living proof of Christianity", only to be converted in the end (the apocalypse).
So, I am not saying that atheism is wrong, but the idea that atheists are so smart, logical and critical is just a load of **** Its just a belief/ideology, most atheists, like the topic creator, don't even know the modern synthesis of evolution. I mean really, all the TP can say is "natural selection".
PS. Also the Inquisition had no authority over Jews, it was charged with rooting out heresy among Christians.
The definition of antisemitism does encompass the Jewish faith as well.Now to be honest, I really don't see what your post has to do with mine. The only point I'm making about the holocaust is that it was a culmination of centuries of antisemitism in Europe, which was largely propagated by religious leaders. You can't kill 6 million people without anyone else noticing. Everyone in Europe knew that something was up. One day there'd be a Jewish family living next door and the next day the house would be vacant. Large scale genocide can only happen within a particular cultural context. In this case, that particular context was an antisemitic Europe. Here you have the Jews, who before Hitler had already been charged with usury, deicide, and everything in between.
Not many Europeans had much love for the Jewish people. And the Jewish people knew this as well. Zionism - the wanting to escape Europe and establish a nation for Jews, was not a concept that was created after the holocaust happened. Modern zionism was created decades before Fascism even existed, let alone Nazism. The writing was already on the wall for some time. Hitler was in many ways the climax of antisemitism in Europe; he wasn't its origin.
And you brought up the gypsies - everything I've said about antisemitism can be said in some capacity about the gypsies as well.
No, my point is that you are wrong and keep on harping about it. Which leads into my point that atheist aren't some sort of super logical beings.
Also, no, anti-semitism is divorced from the jewish religion. Its discrimination against semitic people, hence anti-semite. Please google the meaning.
So when you talk about centuries of anti-semitism you are way wrong.Anti-semitism, is amuch newer concept based on race.Thus, the cultural context that you are talking about, is in reality, different than your perception of it.
The rest of your post is useless, don't know why I should bother responsing to zionism or how the holocaust actually functioned as it has nothing to do with the debate on race vs. religion.
[QUOTE="musicalmac"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]I don't see how you can get that impression from my post. First of all, I am Jewish (and not of the self-hating variety). And I haven't even remotely implied that Jewish people are responsible for their own persecution, nor am I attributing the cause of all Jewish persecution to Christianity. All I am saying is that if Europe wasn't the antisemitic cesspool that it was when Hitler came into power chances are the holocaust wouldn't have happened. That's not to say that Christianity is guilty of causing the holocaust, but Christian leaders were partially responsible for creating a culture in Europe where something like a holocaust was possible. Frame_DraggerBut that's not all you said. You attibuted Christian leaders to the European anti-semitism, which means you're pegging Christianity as the cause of the holocaust. You've stepped back now, saying that Christianity played a role, but wasn't the lone cause of the atrocities. I'm simply trying to sort through your post to get at the heart of what it is you're saying, as it was not clear to me originally (which is why I questioned it to begin with). He would be pegging Christian LEADERS as creating an atmosphere which ALLOWED the holocaust to occur... you nitwit you.And they would be?
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]I don't see how you can get that impression from my post. First of all, I am Jewish (and not of the self-hating variety). And I haven't even remotely implied that Jewish people are responsible for their own persecution, nor am I attributing the cause of all Jewish persecution to Christianity. All I am saying is that if Europe wasn't the antisemitic cesspool that it was when Hitler came into power chances are the holocaust wouldn't have happened. That's not to say that Christianity is guilty of causing the holocaust, but Christian leaders were partially responsible for creating a culture in Europe where something like a holocaust was possible. musicalmacBut that's not all you said. You attibuted Christian leaders to the European anti-semitism, which means you're pegging Christianity as the cause of the holocaust. You've stepped back now, saying that Christianity played a role, but wasn't the lone cause of the atrocities. I'm simply trying to sort through your post to get at the heart of what it is you're saying, as it was not clear to me originally (which is why I questioned it to begin with). Here's what I said originally:
"Things like the holocaust don't happen if Christian leaders aren't constantly preaching anti-semitism for centuries beforehand."
I never pegged Christianity as the cause of the holocaust, nor did I say it was the lone cause of the atrocities. The only point I've been trying to make is that centuries of antisemitism (largely propagated by religious leaders) was a necessary condition for the holocaust to happen. If Christian leaders took their time praising the Jews at the pulpit for centuries beforehand instead of vilifying them, the public perception of Jews in Europe would be much different than what it actually was, and it would be hard to imagine that they would then go on to be slaughtered like cattle out of nowhere after being such cherished people in a loving environment for so many years.
Also, keep in mind that 13 million people died in the holocaust. Was Christianity also responsible for all the other groups? Don't remember the Catholics being anti-slavic.
And what you for some reason are incapable of understanding is that anti-semitism is different from anti-judaism of the Catholic church. Keep in mind that the holocaust shoked the western world, such things were not supposed to happen. Simply stating that Christian leaders created a negative image of jews is not enough, they created a negative image of jewish religion. The holocaust was based on race.
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