Confederate flag on South Carolina capitol

Mitt Romney, the Republican nominee for president in 2012, called for the immediate removal of the Confederate battle flag from outside the South Carolina Statehouse, scrambling the 2016 GOP presidential contenders into staking a position on a contentious cultural issue.

Many see the Confederate flag as "a symbol of racial hatred," Romney tweeted on Saturday. "Remove it now to honor #Charleston victims."

The former Massachusetts governor joins President Barack Obama and civil rights leaders in calling for the flag to come down as the nation grapples with Wednesday's murders. The man charged with the crimes, Dylann Storm Roof, held the Confederate flag in a photograph on a website and displayed the flags of defeated white-supremacist governments in Africa on his Facebook page.

Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said Saturday his position is clear: "In Florida we acted, moving the flag from the state grounds to a museum where it belonged," he said in a statement provided to The Associated Press, referring to his 2001 order to remove the Confederate battle flag from the grounds of the historic Old Capitol building.

"Following a period of mourning there will rightly be a discussion among leaders in the state about how South Carolina should move forward, and I'm confident they will do the right thing," Bush said.

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker declined to offer his position. "I think they're going to have a good, healthy debate — and should have a healthy debate in South Carolina amongst officials at the state level," he told reporters after a speech Saturday night in Washington. "I think out of deference, before we have that discussion, we should allow the families of the loved ones to bury their dead."

The debate holds political risks for Republicans eager to win over South Carolina conservatives who support the display of the battle flag on public grounds. The state will host the nation's third presidential primary contest in February, a critical contest in the 2016 race.

South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham, one of four Republican senators running for president, told CNN he's open to revisiting the decision to use the flag, but it "is a part of who we are."

Former technology executive Carly Fiorina said Saturday she agrees the flag is a "symbol of racial hatred" yet declined to call for its removal, saying her "personal opinion is not what's relevant here."

Texas Sen. Ted Cruz said the last thing the people of South Carolina need is "people from outside of the state coming in and dictating how they should resolve it," Cruz said in a statement provided to The Associated Press.

He said he understands both sides of the debate — including those who see the flag as a symbol of "racial oppression and a history of slavery" and "those who want to remember the sacrifices of their ancestors and the traditions of their states — not the racial oppression, but the historical traditions."

Ohio Gov. John Kasich said it's ultimately "up to the people of South Carolina to decide, but if I were a citizen of South Carolina I'd be for taking it down."

Spokesmen for most of the other Republican presidential contenders also either ignored such questions or formally declined to comment. They include Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, businessman Donald Trump and Sens. Rand Paul and Marco Rubio.

http://news.yahoo.com/confederate-flag-sets-off-debate-gop-2016-class-190435917--election.html

lol at Scott Walker's non answer and bigger lol to Cruz. Gotta keep that white supremacist money flowing.

I don't know how you can claim to love America but be okay with flying that flag on government property.

Far be it for me to pretend what different people see in different objects such as a flag. It may very well be that a lot of people do view it as a symbol of sacrifice and tradition rather than a symbol of racism. With that said, I'm sure the same could be said about the Nazi flag and symbolism, and we can't escape the other connotations the Rebel flag has associated it. It's good this debate is happening, and I hope the end result is that it is taken down from the capital and other government buildings. I think the flag is divisive enough and carries enough hurt behind it that it simply does not have a place flying on government property.

If private citizens want to continue flying it on their own property for whatever personal reasons I think that's fine too.

That flag should have stayed off the pole ever since the South lost the civil war. It is the flag of traitors and belongs in a museum or on fire.

Yeah, I think it's a good idea to get rid of the flag on government property. It symbolizes racism, oppression, and slavery to many African Americans. I'm surprised there haven't been massive protests by blacks to take down Confederate flags on government properties in the South. Or if there have been, I just haven't heard about it. Regardless, the flag is 150 years outdated. Time for a new flag, South Carolina.

I agree the Stars and Bars should not be allowed to fly on government property. It's okay to fly it in historical locations though such as the C.S.S. Hunley museum.

But it's their freedom of speech and they have the right to use it to promote intolerance.

And also to cause chaos and more deaths in the society.

Still better than living in any ME/Muslim dominated country (except of course Israel):

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

The flag symbolizes treason. Get rid of it. You don't see us flying the fucking UK flag do you?

This is a poor trolling attempt. You can do better than this.

I'm from the south (grew up in Texas which claims the Confederate flag as one of the six flags) and I'm black and I personally could care less about the confederate flag.

It's just something SJWs latched on to to make a political issue. There are far worse things to worry about that are real injustices than an old flag that many feel represents southern heritage.

The 'stars and bars' isn't even the real CSA flag it's a battle standard.

The only confederate flag that matters is the white one they waved when the South surrendered.

Well look at you being all easy going ;)

Oh I'm not even going to start a discussion about freedom of speech in this thread. I already am convinced that it's an obstacle in the way of secularism and no matter how you look at it, it's holding your nations back in many cases just like Islam allegedly is holding back the ME nations. It won't solely bring about the downfall of your civilizations but it will play its part.

Anyways yeah let's get rid of that flag.

Well, you got 2 things right in that post at least.

You say that while it waves on government buildings and the homes of civilians, remains on license plates, and people wear it on shirts.

It matters.

Yeah, unfortunately it does matter for people who wave it on government building, on their homes, have it on license plates, and t-shirts.

Southern pride is a joke.

The Confederacy ended their rebellion against the Union, but they did not end their inhumane treatment towards African Americans. It might seem like stating the obvious, but that being what this flag represents needs clarification, so people know exactly what is honored, here.

I grew up in the south as a teenager. It's just "southern pride".

Similar issue happened when I was middle school. The kids weren't allowed to make confederate flags in art class and had a big fit about it.

@plageus900: it's not about being easy going it's about being realistic. I was born in 1970, segregation was still pretty prominent when I was a kid. I saw Klan meetings hoods and all in the town square as late as the 80s growing up. There's still a colored water fountain in the park down the street from the house I grew up in. If they haven't bothered to change that I really doubt things like a flag that many southerners actually take pride in I s going to change.

Flags don't make people racist. If anything id rather you wear your true feelings on the outside than be like people out here in LA where I live now and smile in my face while hating me.

And people saying southern pride doesn't matter aren't from the south. It's part of the culture and unless you are from there you probably don't get it.

I grew up in the South, too. I encountered racism.

When I hear or read "southern pride," I recognize that it is pride about heritage. All I am saying is what that heritage is.

Fair enough, sir.

Without free speech there can be no secularism. It's not holding our nation back. It's enhancing our nation. I sincerely doubt free speech will in any way bring about the downfall of this country.

I have no idea why you hate the fact that people can speak freely so much yet you exercise that very same right on these forums.

Its kinda sad that a cool flag design is stuck with the "Racist" label.

Neither did the northerners. You realize that emancipation proclamation only applied to the slaves in the southern states not the slaves in the north right? North states had slaves until slavery officially ended by the 13th amendment several months after civil war ended. And racism continued to exist everywhere in the US, not just the south. The civil war wasn't fought over slavery, the issue was exploited by Lincoln to isolate the confederacy. So saying that the confederate flag honor slavery or racism is a misrepresentation.

Granted I'm not defending racism or groups with racist ideology, but there will always be those who twist or distort symbols or flags to advance their agenda. Would you say that the cross is racist because klan use it or the crescent is violent because there are Muslim terrorists?

Reminds me of this article I read yesterday.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/12/02/black-college-student-wins-fight-to-display-confederate-flag-in-dorm-room/

The flag definitely has a different meaning for some Southerners, and the fact that a few Black people proudly display this flag proves at least to me that the symbol isn't inherently about racism and hatred. By people here in the States wanting all Confederate flags taken down and burned, it's similar to people outside our country burning the US flag because they view us as an oppressive and hate filled country. Obviously, anyone who knows the true meaning of the US flag knows that isn't true, which is pretty much the same with the Southerners and their Confederate Flag. Of course, the easier thing to do is just close your mind and get behind an outraged mob.

Hey. Y'know what would be awesome? If a pile of people exploited a tragedy to get a political gain they have wanted for the last 20 years.

Seriously folks, can you at least let these poor folks get their loved ones in the ground before you use them for your personal gain? Thanks.

The bolded is particularly interesting. I have studied U.S. history at two different colleges. They were American History to 1865 and United States History II (The end of the Civil War to modern era). In the first course and first college, my professor emphasized that the U.S. Civil War was not about slavery. In the second course and second college, my professor emphasized that the U.S. Civil War was about slavery. Both are regionally accredited colleges.

Feel free to share your opinion, but please understand that there are differing viewpoints. That said, Alexander H. Stephens, one of the founders of the Confederacy, stated something different from your opinion:

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth...

http://web.archive.org/web/20130822142313/http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/

If the Vice President of the Confederacy was saying this, I wonder what your contending source is.

As I recall, the Emancipation Proclamation was the abolition of slavery throughout all of the United States. I am not sure where you read otherwise. That said, Jim Crow laws were only in Southern states, so while racism persisted in the North, de facto segregation was in effect in places other than there in the United States.

That's bit of cherry picking since the quoted cornerstone speech also outlined other fundamental differences between north and south. Also Lincoln isn't an abolitionist, he believed in majority rule. Furthermore north didn't goto war to free the slave either.

Also you recalled incorrectly.

Despite this expansive wording, the Emancipation Proclamation was limited in many ways. It applied only to states that had seceded from the Union, leaving slavery untouched in the loyal border states. It also expressly exempted parts of the Confederacy that had already come under Northern control. Most important, the freedom it promised depended upon Union military victory.

sauce

shameful.

Depending on one's view of the flag....it may have zero to do with intolerance.

@bmanva: I am not sure how that is cherry picking when Stephens said "the great truth" about "slavery subordination to the superior race." The quoted great truth is singular, meaning that his speech focused on that as if it was the foundation of reasoning for confederate rebellion. Considering that the Civil War started because Southern leaders wanted more states with slaves for voting power while northern leaders (Republicans) were advocating for anti-slavery in new states, it seems difficult to utilize one or two pieces of information to summarize the entirety of the rebellion, the emancipation, and the eventual 13th Amendment. Regardless, I would not call it cherry picking to point out a fundamental attribute of the confederacy since corner-stone means: "An important quality or feature on which a particular thing depends or is based" (LINK). That is, unless you think he misspoke.

However, I would call saying that choosing certain parts of the confederacy to hold pride in while downplaying the significance of slavery cherry picking.

According to PBS, Lincoln said it was about preserving the Union and insisted it was not about slavery to keep the Union intact. However, black sailors acted to contrary.

There was an exception, however. African Americans had been working aboard naval vessels for years, and there was no reason that they should continue. Black sailors were therefore accepted into the U.S. Navy from the beginning of the war. Still, many African Americans wanted to join the fighting and continued to put pressure on federal authorities. Even if Lincoln was not ready to admit it, blacks knew that this was a war against slavery. Some, however, rejected the idea of fighting to preserve a Union that had rejected them and which did not give them the rights of citizens.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2967.html

Despite the debate, it is clear that in some capacity, the Civil War was, indeed, about slavery. Sure, not nationwide slavery at first, but eventually, for a reason that has not been clarified in this thread before this post, the Civil War resulted in the ending of slavery in the United States. You seem to have implied that the only reason African Americans are free in the United States, today, is because Lincoln used it to win the war which is why I wonder about the security of the liberty of African Americans, today. I am curious about what stopped the United States from simply enslaving Africans, again. After all, freeing them was simply a way to win the Civil War in a strategic, wartime capacity according to you and others.

That said, the flag represented the entire confederacy and not just the other differences between the Union and the South. Consider how some people insinuate that Christians are apologists of all of Christianity including the parts which promote slavery, the subjugation of women, and stoning. The difference is that the Confederacy ended before it had time to grow beyond war while Christianity has grown and changed for millennia. You mentioned the cross, so I felt like addressing that the two are quite different.

You are correct about the Emancipation Proclamation only applying to rebellious states. My mistake.

As someone who was born, raised, and currently lives in Columbia SC I am going to give my two cents on the issue, although I want to keep it quick because man has it been a debate filled week.

Ever since they took it off the top of the state house it is more prominent than ever. There was no compromise here, even though they love to call it one. You have to take one of three bridges into town if you live on the other side of the river. If you work in the capital or are a USC student, you will ride past this EVERYDAY. Keep in mind that this is part of a larger Civil War monument with statue "Pitchfork" Tillman present in it as well (he can be seen in many pictures with the flag). Every day I would ride past the state house on my way to class and they would have a police officer guarding this thing. Students would cut through the grounds to get to classes, but god forbid you get near the flag! The police officer would have your head. Every year at Christmas, they put a tree up...directly in front of the flag.

It is offensive because it does not feel like the war is over. In 2015.

Here is how this comes across: You feel that the flag is offensive? Well **** you! You or someone you love has been the victim of a hate crime? Double **** you!

^NOTE: Sorry for the ramble...it is almost a stream of thoughts at this point. It has been rough. I grew up in Columbia, but have spent a great deal of time in Charleston. It is like a second home to me. The killer was apparently living within a 5-10 mile radius of my house...all of this hit very close to home and is rubbing some nerves raw.

The placement after the 2000 marches felt downright hateful. People who were pro flag were actually chanting "Off the dome and in your face!" in 2000. I remember it because I was there.

It is time to see this go. That is it, I will not be back to debate this. Just wanted to throw in a local viewpoint.

Treasonous flag for idiots. Take it off of public property, but let people fly it or wear it. Its a guaranteed stamp of stupidity.

I'm not American, so I ask permission to share my thoughts.

It's truly insane that it's been up this long.

This is basically my thoughts on the subject.

I don't know why people think it's ok to celebrate a time traitors tried to separate from the country to support slavery.

I've always thought: what are you even proud of, you lost a war that was fought over slavery. Why would somebody be proud of that?

I think it's just being proud of your lifestyle and where you're from.

Choosing a symbol associated with racism and losing an il-fought war is dumb though and isn't something to be proud of.

let south carolina decide

personally i think it's fucking stupid

Agreed. You lost the war, you were an enemy of the United States. If I were alive at the time I would have taken up arms against you. If you had it your way blacks may still be slaves to this day. No, your flag should not be flown in any way, shape, or form. Might as well be the Nazi flag as far as I am concerned. Not because of racism, but because you were an enemy and got your ass kicked.

Then there is that little fact that nutjobs like the last murderer use your flag as a symbol of their pride.

It is, but hey at the end of the day it's just whatever. It doesn't effect my life.

SC governor said she's going to work to take the flag down.

Meh, it's just a stupid piece of cloth

Good call, the flag belongs in a museum, not on a government building. It would also send a message to the people that (ab)use this flag for their racist ideas..

I'd say it's fine if people want to hang this flag on their personal properties. It's impossible to stop that anyway.

The Civil War was almost 100% about slavery. Even if you argue that it was about State's Rights, it was about State's Rights to keep and expand slavery. You had so many situations in the 19th century where the Federal Government clashed with State's Right's, multiple crises's occured (Nullification Crisis probably the most notable), and none lead to a Civil War.

Yet when Lincoln was to be elected with a Republican Majority, a party pretty hell-bent on abolitionist containment principles for Slavery, most of the Slave States immediately seceded.

Jefferson Davis actually said in 1861 that the cause of Secession were tariffs and slavery.

I hear Walmart is going to stop selling the confederate flag... don't know if this is a good thing or if I should be flabbergasted that they were even selling them in the first place.

Uh... permission... granted?

anyways, I am american, and I find it pitiful that a flag which, like it or not, has become a symbol of racism, is being hung on a capitol building.

You can argue the reasons for the civil war all you want, and you can argue what the flag represented at the time all you want, but at the end of the day, the south fought for the right to keep their slaves (amongst other things, sure). To this day, that flag has become the symbol of a region that wanted to continue using slavery as an institution, and has been linked to slavery and racism.

The swastika was originally a Buddhist symbol but GUESS THE **** WHAT??? It's now associated with Nazi Germany and with genocide, so NOBODY with two braincells rubbing together makes the fucking argument that it's fine to hang that flag on their town hall, because they recognize that it's a fucking racist sign.

Good for you if you know history and can articulate an argument over what the flag truly meant or represented or whatever, but when the great majority of the world associates your beloved flag with slavery and racism maybe you should just back the **** up and consider why you're really defending that flag.

@BranKetra: Thanks for the info. After some additional research I will concede that slavery was a central issue in state secession. But I'm still of the position that Lincoln was not an ardent supporter of putting an end to slavery even if he thought found it morally objectionable, because he placed a greater importance in the constitution which at the time protected the rights of slave owners. He was a former member of the Whig party and a political ally of Stephens. In fact, Lincoln specifically stated that sating the south was more important than the issue of slavery. He essentially was forced to confront issue when the war broke out. I believe slavery would have lasted longer than it had and Lincoln wouldn't have been the one to end it if the Confed states didn't tried to secede.

One flag that represents a bunch of assholes we don't like down now all we have to do is get rid of the rest of them and we can put this whole flag that represents assholes thing behind us for good.