Zelda: Overrated of Time.

It was overrated then as it is now. Way way better games came out before and after.

This game is like a rumor that grows wilder after every generation. It is an average game at best.

Its still a pretty good game by today's standards, but what really made it great was how it shaped adventure games during its generation. Really its something you had to play at the time to truly understand why it is so good.

The game is perfect, i dont think its possible to overrate it, i dont think you could even give the game the praise it deserves. All games should bow to the great LoZ:OoT. Ive still been trying to find me a copy of the 3DS one.

@tiny_rick: I did play it at its time, but I still fail to see how it remains relevant today.

I think it's just nostalgia speaking personally

@johntrollvolta: heres a video that might interest you

The game is rated highly because there was no competition that could compare the game to other series. There were some Zelda clones on the NES and SNES that would try to be like Zelda, but in the transition to 3D, no one could have possibly match the mechanics Ocarina of Time had, plus it also utilize the N64 controller better than any other 3D game for its time.

I will concede your point and for the sake of argument, lets assume it's the single best game ever made, the most fun, the most ground breaking, revolutionary, influential, etc.

Does that still justify an adult in university obsessing over it for 20 years ? How can that not be nostalgia ?

Despite all the great things, and let me tell you i personally loved this game as a kid, however it remains a game, but its graphics AND mechanics AND story are both outplayed, outdated, and even clicheed at this point .

The fact it was so revolutionary cannot change that, so the only reason I can see for people refusing to get over it and enjoy new and better games, is nostalgia.

@johntrollvolta: Cause the game is just as fun today as it was yesterday. Nintendo games age like fine wine. You can taste their quality.

It's not the best game ever. New games have improved on the mechanics Ocarina introduced. OoT was mind blowing in its day.

If folks want to play it over and over again, so what? They get their money's worth.

I agree.

It was a great game for about 15 minutes, then things like poor story, bland dungeons, and broken controls started to overpower everything because it was all done so much better elsewhere.

It's still a pretty great game. I don't think it's best ever, but it holds up pretty well and it still a lot of fun.

It is a great game. Would agree that it is slightly overrated though. Still, it undoubtedly passes the test of time with flying colors. I could play it one every year and never grow bored with it, but yes, better games are out there.

If people love it still, let them love it. What's it to you?

Ah, just looked at your username again. I see.

Its still fun to play.

Coming from someone who didn't play it until early 2013, it's definitely my favorite Zelda game. I love it. Yeah, some parts are dated, but I completely understand all the praise it gets. I can't imagine what it was like playing this back when it first came out in 98. It must have been magical. It's one of the few high profile games I've played that I wouldn't say is overrated.

I don't think the game is the best game ever, and I don't think it's overrated. Is it my favorite Zelda game? No, I guess that would still be one of the Gameboy ones. But it was and is still a great game.

I get that some games don't withstand the test of time very well, but how doesn't OOT? Because you have to control the camera? Because there are no microtransactions? Because it doesnt have 1080p UHD graphics?

Why would anyone even complain about it, when games today are total shit pretty much?

I'm having more trouble answering this than I thought I would. It's impact on gaming was so huge that it just can't be overrated, but there are definitely some dated game mechanics present. Every subsequent Zelda has better controls and storytelling. The stealth portions were not great and some of the bosses were more frustrating than fun. However, OoT has the most creative and well designed dungeons in the whole series. And even if some of the bosses got frustrating, they were all very unique and each had a different gimmick to defeat it.

It's not the best game ever, but is still very fun and playable today. Plus, you figure it's main competition at the time was Mid Evil. There is a game that has not aged well.

it was amazing for its time, just as Goldeneye was. Now it's just antiquated, slow and clunky. It's aged badly.

@halvedlife: Must be why when they brought it to 3DS they barely had to change anything. Makes sense mate.

Won't say its overratted just not the best Zelda game.

Didn't feel over rated to me. It does feel dated this day and age, no doubt. But for its time and generation, it was definitely the best IMO. Back then, it was the first title that genuinely made me feel immersed in its atmosphere and wanted to explore every inch of its world. Besides the very start, there wasn't a dull moment but it had plenty of memorable elements in its overall world. I've played many game that "wowed" me to a certain extent, but OoT has pretty much set the bar. From my initial play through back in 98, OoT never had me wishing for any major changes or had me feeling that something was missing. It simply felt "perfect". Probably the reason why I'd consider it my personal favorite game....

Choppiest control, emptiest fields and overworld, blocky environment, worst map in the series, and least flowing mission structure. It's not a bad game by any stretch, but it's not in my top 3 Zeldas.

Why do you care what other people enjoy? furthermore how can you judge anybody as immature when you write out posts containing nao, gaem and evur...? I just got through replaying SMB2 (lost levels) and while it's dated in every aspect, I still had a blast regardless.

Nah, the praise is justified. Game's a masterpiece. Not my favourite Zelda, though.

I've never liked OoT. I've always wondered if it's because I had a PS1 instead of an N64, and because my first 3D Zelda was Wind Waker, so going backwards into OoT made it feel too dated. But the truth is it can't be that. The only Zelda games I played before Wind Waker where Link's Awakening, and the Oracle Duo. I've been back to LoZ, AoL and ALttP and loved all three of them, I also went back to Majora's Mask and enjoyed that too, but OoT, I just can't stand, I even bought the 3DS version thinking a fresh coating might make me like it more, but I didn't even get to the Master Sword before getting sick of the game.

I don't feel right saying it's a bad game because so many love it, but personally, playing though OoT was one of the worst gaming experiences I've had.

It is a great game, not the best Zelda or game ever but still its a classic.

OT - Saw the Zelda Symphony the other day, it was awesome.

It's a great, influential game still felt to this day.

No, it's not overrated in the slightest. A single dungeon has more thought put into it than all of Bethesda's combined.

@mesome713: Yeah because Z targeting and the repetition of 1. wait for enemy to attack. 2. block. 3. swing sword. 4. ???? 5. PROFIT is totally a perfect combat system.

What I hate most about OoT is the fans that refuse to acknowledge it's flaws. OoT is a great game.. but not a perfect one. I don't think there truly exists a perfect game regardless.

@mand0n: They dont call it the greatest game of all time for nothing.

@mesome713: People call it that because they have nostalgic hard ons for it. When people are hardwired to love a game because they grew up with it, it makes them less inclined to analyze it critically. I recommend watching Egoraptor's sequelitis video about OoT and ALTTP. Very informative

So because you were too stupid to figure out the puzzle or inept to control Link it was bad? It was masterful. Great graphics, beautiful music, top notch level design, simple and easy to understand mechanics, decent combat, hours upon hours of content, tons of unlockable, more exploration and discovery you could shake a stick at. Idiots who think it's overrated were probably not even born when it was setting the world on fire. This game was rightfully praised. **** off if you think otherwise.

That said Majora's Mask was superior in every way save for innovation.

Also, nothing can be overrated.

Such a shame to see a child's rose colored glasses destroy their ability to see the world when they grow up.

The game is flawed, live with it.

Nobody denied it was flawed but your post was plain stupid. You could have mentioned the choppy frame rate that dropped in the teens at times or the endless menu/exit menu swapping but instead you attack some of its strongest points(except story). The dungeons were masterfully crafted and to this day it features some of the most intricate and well thought out levels seen in the industry. The controls were perfect for the N64, context sensitive inputs way before it became mainstream, z-targeting, complete use of the c-buttons, responsive inputs and great use of an otherwise terrible joystick.

Bland dungeons? GTFO. You'll be hard pressed to name many games not in the Zelda series with better designed levels.

@Juub1990: You have to understand, to @Jaysonguy, one flaw = flawed game. One moment of wonky controls = broken controls. One underwhelming bit of design = bland dungeons.

He probably hasn't played the game since 1998 (and probably only played it back then for 16 minutes), so he's looking at the game through his own turd-colored glasses that have destroyed his ability to see the world when he grew up.

In other words, just let him be. ;)

I would take him seriously if he wasn't so hyperbolic. The most critically acclaimed and highest rated game of all time good for 15 minutes? GTFO.

@Juub1990: Do you even realize how much of a fanboy you're being? Someone mentions OoT's flaws and you flip shit. Games can ABSOLUTELY be overrated - especially when they have nostalgic sentiment attached to them. For example - I grew up playing Mario 64 and it's one of my favourite games of all time, buuuuuuuuuut Galaxy is better. Objectively better. It improves upon every single thing 64 did, besides exploration [which in my opinion isn't the point of mario anyways so it's irrelevant. platforming is what counts] Ocarina of Time? Fantastic game, amazing soundtrack, it has a timeless feel that just makes me giddy inside every time I play it. It also has formulaic and repetitive puzzles, some of which have almost no thought put into them [look around the room, see an eye, shoot it], not enough freedom and exploration, despite what you said - the most exploration you get is in Hyrule Field. The game holds your hand and punishes you for branching off by having Navi scream in your face over what you're supposed to be doing, and the combat... the combat the combat the combat. It isn't "decent". it isn't even good. Z targeting was a great idea but it was horribly executed in OoT and the combat is just a repetitious pattern of waiting for the enemy to attack so you can attack it and kill it. Even the bosses follow a set pattern. > use item at right moment > cripple it > attack > repeat 2 more times.

You can love a game without pathologically being compelled to use words like "perfect" and "best game ever". OoT has serious flaws, therefore it's a flawed game. That doesn't take away from your nostalgia or love for the game.. at least it shouldn't.

There's no such thing as ''objectively better'' that phrase doesn't even make sense.

Nothing can be overrated. Overrated implies it gets more praise than it should but if the masses praise it, who are you to say it isn't as good as they think it is? Overrated is basically a catch-all term for ''I think people like X or Y too much while I don't''. It doesn't mean jack and cannot be used in the context of opinions.

I already pointed out OOT's flaws. Your posts also reeks of idiocy. See an eye shoot it? Yeah because that's all the puzzles are made of right? Hyrule Field to explore? How about Lake Hylia, Death Mountain, Gerudo's Valley, Gerudo's Fortress, Haunted Wasteland, the Graveyard? OOT was larger than 99% of the games in its time and featured far more exploration. How the hell did you think they hid the 100 Gold Skultulas and Pieces of Heart if everything was hiding in plain sight?

You're also full of shit for saying it punishes you for branching off. That's a complete lie. I completed the Fire Temple before the Forest Temple in my first play through specifically because I didn't know how to access the Forest Temple at the time. You're actually rewarded by branching off the beaten paths with upgrades, items or power-ups. How many optional items are there in the game again? Did you know Nayru's Love and the Biggoron's Sword are both optional? You can even cheat in that treasure game in Market by using the Lens of Truth. Navi screams in your face to give you a hint where to go because the game was large for its time and sometimes without the hints, some would get lost. Hell some people until recently were still searching for that famous Temple of Light. The world was huge for its time and still bigger than many games of today which is why there were so many myths about hidden dungeons and items.

Yes, the combat was decent for a 3D adventure game. Can you name many games with a better real-time combat system released in 1998 or before?

Your post is shit.

I know the games had flaws. I mentioned several above. Horrible frame rate. Blurry textures at times. Cliche and predictable story. Endless pause/game/pause. You guys are bashing it for things it was lauded. Seems you weren't even old enough to play it in 1998.

@Juub1990:

Oh there's absolutely such a thing as objective superiority between games, to a certain degree. Chrono Trigger is better than E.T, for example.

"See an eye shoot it? Yeah because that's all the puzzles are made of right?"

A lot of them follow that trend of simplicity and lack of thought, yes.

"How about Lake Hylia, Death Mountain, Gerudo's Valley, Gerudo's Fortress, Haunted Wasteland, the Graveyard?"

None of those locations feature any true exploration. They're just there as part of the tour - with a few secrets thrown in simply because. There's no sense of adventure - it's all guided by the narrative. Which, may I remind you - blocks off certain paths until you're supposed to go there.

"I completed the Fire Temple before the Forest Temple in my first play through specifically because I didn't know how to access the Forest Temple at the time. You're actually rewarded by branching off the beaten paths with upgrades, items or power-ups. How many optional items are there in the game again? Did you know Nayru's Love and the Biggoron's Sword are both optional?"

Yes, you can technically complete temples out of order - but that's not the intention of the developer and going out of sequence in OoT isn't the same as say, A Link Between Worlds, where you literally can complete the dungeons in any order because the game isn't linear. But sequence breaking doesn't at all absolve the fact that OoT is a linear game. Also, I should remind you that yes - while you can find hidden items in the game, you're still missing my point completely - OoT still breaks the theme of "adventuring" in a large world ripe for exploration. Throwing a cave or a breakable wall here and there may count as exploration to you, but it's not the true exploration that it's predecessors established. On top of it all, exploration isn't key to completing the game - which completely destroys the entire spirit of Zelda. Remember ALTTP? It gave you direction to an extent but most of it was up to you to decide where you're gonna go and how you're gonna get there. You had to explore to find integral items to progress, or simply progress in general. If you wanted to progress through the game, you had to use your head and figure it out. OoT's more cinematic, but that's a double edged sword when the narrative is guiding you through the whole game.

"Yes, the combat was decent for a 3D adventure game. Can you name many games with a better real-time combat system released in 1998 or before?"

A Link to the Past. easy answer. The only time OoT's combat was in any way decent was during the Iron Knuckle fights because it was up to you to decide to pace of the battle. rather than waiting for an opening and spamming A you had to actually maneuver yourself around the battlefield and fight, rather than simply playing the waiting game - which is 90% of OoT's shitty combat.

"Seems you weren't even old enough to play it in 1998."

HAH. That's fucking rich. Anyone that criticizes the object of your nostalgic bias couldn't POSSIBLY have grown up with it too, right? I mean there's no way anyone could have owned an N64 as a kid and simply didn't think OoT was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

No because I actually know someone who absolutely hates Chrono Trigger and JRPG's in general and didn't find ET as terrible as advertised.

Almost no puzzle is simply sitting on a switch or hitting an eye. You usually have to do that to activate an actual puzzle.

What the hell is ''true exploration''? Sounds like you're making shit up to suit your argument. Certain paths are blocked because it's not an open-world game. Nobody claimed it was either. You have a large world to explore. Don't claim there is no exploration, there absolutely is. It is a large world ripe for exploration. As soon as you leave Kokiri Forest you can decide to head on to Kakariko Village, Market, Lon Lon Ranch, Lake Hylia or Zora's River among other different places. You don't have to go where Navi recommends you to go. You can go and explore things for yourself which is exactly what I and many other people did. Or you can simply follow along the story. Doesn't matter what the developer intended. What matters is what the game is. You can do shit and explore in OOT, don't claim you can't, that's a complete and utter lie. Proven by the fact you're making ridiculous claims of ''true exploration'' whatever the **** that means. It doesn't matter what ''sense'' you felt while playing the game, that's completely subjective. What is objective is that OOT featured a large world full of secrets and took time to explore. For example have you ever tried to put your Iron boots to reach the bottom of Lake Hylia? Did you ever wonder in Lost Woods to find these two Skull Kids playing the flute on tree stumps? Or how about going further into Gerudo's Fortress to complete the horse/bow challenge or the Gerudo's Training Grounds? How are these examples not exploration?

A Link to the Past? Be serious. The combat had no sense of flow and it was literally just enemies rushing you and you hitting them with your sword to push them away. It was also wonky as there was no way to target enemies and focus on them. For example, a Dark Nut could charge you and hit you on the top right of your head by grazing you with his sword. The combat in A Link To The Past was as good as the combat in a Kirby game, which is to say, not at all. It also wasn't 3D. I would agree Minish Cap had better combat but ALTTP had a joke of a combat system.

I don't even think OOT is the greatest game ever. I think Majora's Mask is. OOT was a masterpiece for its time and it's simply hilarious to see people try and downplay it by being revisionists.

@Juub1990:

"No because I actually know someone who absolutely hates Chrono Trigger and JRPG's in general and didn't find ET as terrible as advertised."

His subjective enjoyment of the game is irrelevant, considering that Chrono Trigger's a technical marvel and objectively perfect in mechanics and core structure, while E.T is not. That's what I mean by objective superiority - if you actually think the notion that CT is better than ET is subjective then I don't know what to tell you man, besides that's fucking bullshit.

"As soon as you leave Kokiri Forest you can decide to head on to Kakariko Village, Market, Lon Lon Ranch, Lake Hylia or Zora's River among other different places."

Lon Lon Ranch is one of the few locations in the game that allows you to go off the beaten path and do side objectives, with the exception of the fetch quests that lead up to the Biggoron Sword. Could you go to all those other locations? Sure - but good luck actually doing anything there if you haven't progressed far enough in the story to get an item or song for you to actually progress down those paths. Stop taking my words out of context to suit your argument - because I never once implied that OoT didn't have any exploration - I said it didn't have 'true' exploration. As for what true exploration is, I already explained it. ALTTP required you to explore the world to progress in the story. It required you to figure shit out for yourself by interacting with the world. Ocarina of Time never requires that of you - the exploration is just an optional diversion, rather than a key part of the game. And for a series that established itself as an ADVENTURE game, Ocarina of Time does a piss poor job of conveying that, because you can beat the game without exploring the world at all. If you honestly can't understand what I'm explaining to you, then I think it's more than clear which game you grew up playing

"The combat had no sense of flow and it was literally just enemies rushing you and you hitting them with your sword to push them away. It was also wonky as there was no way to target enemies and focus on them. For example, a Dark Nut could charge you and hit you on the top right of your head by grazing you with his sword. The combat in A Link To The Past was as good as the combat in a Kirby game, which is to say, not at all. It also wasn't 3D. I would agree Minish Cap had better combat but ALTTP had a joke of a combat system."

LOL. Now you're trying to discredit ALTTP's combat simply to continue putting OoT on a pedestal? To call you a fanboy is an understatement. ALTTP required you to maneuver yourself and use the environment to your advantage, creating space between you and your enemies so you could attack and make the kill, not unlike the fight with the Iron Knuckle in OoT, which was the only point in the game where the combat was good. Just because you suck at ALTTP doesn't make the combat a joke. At least the combat actually requires you to do shit other than wait around for the enemy to attack you

Quality is inherently subjective. You can't argue that. Quantity is objective. It may sound crazy but there is no such that as ''objective superiority''. You can bring outlandish examples all you want but it doesn't change a thing.

You could start the dog sidequest in market. The cuccoo sidequest in Kakariko Village, visit the House of Skulltulas or get the Magic Beans early in Zora's River or you could go get Epona's Song or even go back to Lost Woods/Kokiri Forest or go to Lake Hylia and Get the Scarecrow song. You could do plenty of things. I finished this game dozens of times and I recall what you can and cannot do by heart. No I don't get what you mean at all. Both games actively encourage you to explore the world and reward you for it. I don't exactly see what you're arguing here except that ALTTP has subjectively superior exploration. The point I was making wasn't that ALTTP has better exploration, it was that OOT had plenty of exploration to be had, something you were arguing against earlier.

ALTTP is 2D shit combat. Don't even try to argue that. Hell, Cyclops threw bombs in all directions and couldn't even aim properly, enemies would rush and charge into a wall. They didn't have any move set, no flow, no pattern, no tactics. Stalfos in OOT for example defended against you and raised their shields when you were about to strike, they could jump over your head and try to attack you from behind. No enemy in ALTTP could do that. Understandable because there was virtually no AI and it was a 2D game of 1992. ALTTP did a lot of things better than OOT but combat wasn't one of them. Be serious. The fact that the AI in OOT was much more advanced than in ALTTP alone made the combat far, far better. ALTTP didn't have good combat by 1992 standards. Even worse by 1998 standards. Nice try though.

@Juub1990:

"The point I was making wasn't that ALTTP has better exploration, it was that OOT had plenty of exploration to be had, something you were arguing against earlier."

My point wasn't that OoT didn't have exploration, it's that they made exploration separate from the main presentation. In ALTTP you had to explore, elsewise you wouldn't beat the game. It was an adventure, forcing you to take in the world and figure everything out, albeit to a lesser extent to the original Zelda. OoT holds your hand throughout the whole game. Even when you said you couldn't figure out how to get to the forest temple, all you'd had to have done in that situation is talk to Navi and you'd know where to go.

"Stalfos in OOT for example defended against you and raised their shields when you were about to strike, they could jump over your head and try to attack you from behind." The strategy for beating Stalfo's is almost exactly the same as every other enemy. Block, wait for an opening, strike. With Stalfo's the only difference is that you wait for them to jump so you can attack their backs, because Z targeting literally lets you follow the target no matter what. I mean shit if you wanted to talk about a mini boss with good AI, then why didn't you mention Dark Link?

Yes, OoT did have better AI than ALTTP, I'll concede on that - but the actual COMBAT flowed better. You had to maneuver around your enemies and create distance between you both to strike. There was much more variety to it than the simple wait and attack pattern of OoT. Z targeting also makes enemies more frustrating and tedious to kill, like the bats and pretty much all flying enemies. It creates situations that are more frustrating than punishing yet fun, and with the kee's it's probably most prevalent in the ice cave.

Well in that case all you had to do was not listen to Navi. Something I always did. I never actually bothered even pushing Up-C when she would try to talk to me. So really the sole difference is that in ALTTP you have no one actively telling you where to go? Why are you bashing the game for giving ADDITIONAL options? Worse comes to worst do like me, ignore Navi. She shuts up eventually. The fact that she tells you were to go doesn't make the world any less interesting to explore. It simply gives you the option of following along the plot, something you don't have to do. Most of us actually bothered venturing off the beaten paths to try and discover secrets and upgrades. You were claiming earlier the game punished you from branching off the beaten path, that was completely false.

''wait for an opening''. That alone makes the combat in OOT better than in a Link To The Past. Enemies actually bothered defending and wouldn't just bum rush you yet you find a source of complaint in that? The mobs you are talking about are Wolfos, Stalfos and Lizalfos. Iron Knuckes didn't behave like that, Re-Dead didn't behave like that, Wallmasters didn't behave like that, Deku Scrubs didn't behave like that, Dead Hand didn't behave like that, Moblins didn't behave like that...the list goes on. Even Gerudos had that crazy spin attack that was a one-hit KO if you turtled too much. There was literally a single strategy in ALTTP, hit and run. Sword strike, step back, sword strike, set back. The enemies were much more simple, less reactive/proactive and overall far more stupid. I don't even know what's the argument there. You would have one for The Minish Cap or WW but ALTTP? Sorry but that's a huge no.

Z-targeting was optional. Also ALTTP obviously didn't have that flaw with flying enemies, they were 2D and could be hit from the ground so they really weren't flying. You also had first-person aim if the Kees were too annoying, something I always used against them because they moved too fast for Z-targeting.

"That alone makes the combat in OOT better than in a Link To The Past. Enemies actually bothered defending and wouldn't just bum rush you yet you find a source of complaint in that?" Oh yeah because it's so strategic to sit around waiting with your shield up and then mashing A and putting your shield up again and then mashing a till it's dead.

"Iron Knuckes didn't behave like that"

The one enemy in the game that's actually well designed. All of the enemies in OoT should have been like that.

"Re-Dead didn't behave like that" You're right. There's even less strategy to killing Re-dead's - mash A before they grope you, they're almost no threat to you at all - that's why 90% of the time you come across them, you just run past them because there's no point in fighting them.

"Deku Scrubs" Shield up wait for it to shoot then attack and it's out of it's flower.

"Dead Hand" Dead hand's aren't an OoT exclusive enemy ese. ALTTP has them too.

"Moblins" You don't so much fight the moblins as you do sneak up behind them and shoot them with an arrow, or get behind them and mash A. No real strategy, similarly to the Re-Dead.

The only reason I put emphasis on the Wolfos, Stalfos and Lizalfos is because they make up the majority of the game's enemies. Skulltula's, Deku Baba's [although you don't HAVE to put your shield up, but you should], Tike-Tike's, etc are also like that. Wait with your shield up and attack - that's how 90% of the game's enemies go.

And then there's the bosses, which are even more of a joke. Use item at right moment > attack > repeat twice more. ALTPP on the otherhand.. you could kill them any number of ways, and they were way more of a threat to you.

"Z-targeting was optional." Yeah sure, try playing the game without using it.

"There was literally a single strategy in ALTTP, hit and run. Sword strike, step back, sword strike, set back." Except no. How far into ALTTP did you actually get? That's only the case for like, the first 3 dungeons when enemies are in small groups. In the dark world things become a lot more tricky, they aggro around you and you have to create distance between like 5 enemies at the same time, encouraging you to utilize other items like bombs and the fire rod just to clear the space. In OoT, what happens when you get aggro'd? Z target one of them and hop to the side with your shield up, fight them like normal > ???? ? PROFIT!! When did OoT ever require you to utilize your entire arsenal to survive? When did it ever make you feel like you needed to survive? The game is easy as hell.

ALTTP is such a better, more polished game in comparison it's amazing that we're even having this discussion. It perfected the formula in the same way Mario 3 perfected the 2D platforming formula. The transition into 3D was an awkward one, as was the case with many different franchises, not just Zelda - and it needed serious fine-tuning, but OoT still set awful trends for the series that didn't disappear till 2013 with ALBW.

Dead Hand is the mini boss of the well and Shadow Temple. No enemy behaving like that appears in ALTTP.

You literally fight 2 Lizalfos in OOT and 1 Dinolfos. ALTTP was also damn pretty easy. Let's not get into the debate of which game is easier. I never came close to dying in either game. The entire series is laughably easy save for Adventure of Link and Ganon in the original Zelda. Again strategy isn't even a factor as neither game required a lot of it to succeed. The enemies were easy as hell but one game did combat better than the other. Enemies blocked, reacted, moved around you, focused on you, dodged your attacks in OOT. Can the same be said for a LTTP? No. If you call having a mob of 5 stupid enemies rushing at you good combat then there's no helping you. It's hilarious you're actually trying to pain the combat of ALTTP as something special when it was pure shit. Decent for 1992 but awful for 1998. OOT had decent combat for 1998 as well. Neither was particularly outstanding in that aspect. 2D combat in ALTTP was shit. They did what they could with very limited resources. There's no argument.

Yeah it was so awkward that it is widely regarded as the best game of all time. Get over yourself.

ALTTP is the worst 2D Zelda in my books. Minish Cap and the Oracle Games were far superior. It was still a great game.

Yeah such awful trends that post OOT games are literally the most acclaimed games of all time.

"You literally fight 2 Lizalfos in OOT and 1 Dinolfos" Oh sweet-pea, you know I'm not just talking about Lizalfo's and Dinolfo's. Almost every enemy in the game follows a repititious pattern of block > attack> > block> attack > move to the side > block > attack.

"Enemies blocked, reacted, moved around you, focused on you, dodged your attacks in OOT." HAH. Are you actually trying to insinuate that OoT had a competent AI that anticipated your moves and reacted to them? Now you're really treading on thin ice. The only enemy that did that was Dark Link - the rest just had a few set moves and patterns that were easy as hell to find and exploit. Even the more complicated enemies like the gerudo's had patterns that were exploitable.

"It's hilarious you're actually trying to pain the combat of ALTTP as something special when it was pure shit." Not trying to paint it as something special - just something better than OoT, which has one of the worst combat systems in the entire series. ALTTP required more out of you - which I already explained. Was it perfect? No, but at least it wasn't repetitious. You had to think on your feet and utilize every item at your disposal at times. When did OoT ever require that out of you? When were enemies actually a threat? You can off-handedly call ALTTP easy if you want, and sure - it isn't the HARDEST game in the series, but it's a hell of a lot more challenging than OoT, and if you deny that then you're bluffing. plain and simple.

"2D combat in ALTTP was shit. They did what they could with very limited resources. There's no argument." The combat was no different than any other 2D zelda at it's core. Later games just refined what ALTTP did. You see an enemy in front of you, you hit it with your sword, you spin attack when they aggro around you. I agree that TMC has a better combat system, with all the different sword techniques and what not, but that's a refinement of what ALTTP established - and if you want to go there, then guess what? Twilight Princess has an infinitely better combat system than OoT. What's your point? Why even bother bringing TMC up?

"Yeah it was so awkward that it is widely regarded as the best game of all time. Get over yourself." And Final Fantasy VII is also regarded as the best game in the series by many publications. Irr-fucking-elevant. Best game of all time? If you're actually going to insinuate that OoT is the greatest game of all time THEN we're getting into colossal fanboy territory because there's absolutely no way that's remotely true, and you know it. It was absolutely an awkward transition - in the same way Mario 64 was an awkward transition from the 2D games. There were kinks to work through - as is the case with any game making the transition into 3D.

That game was released in 1998. The AI was more competent than most games of its time. Play Banjo Kazooie or a Conker game. Or hell even a real time hack-n-slash RPG like Legend of Mana. None of them had enemy AI close to OOT. Do you remember what games were like in 1998? Seems you don't.

No I didn't need to use every item at my disposal. I always used my sword except for enemies who were vulnerable to only a single item such as Eyegores. Again it doesn't matter that ALTTP was a bit more challenging. It was laughably easy still so that point hardly tips any scale in its favor. Alright, it was slightly more difficult and there were larger mobs, how does that make it better? Enemies with better AI, a who keep their shield up, jump around and dodge your attacks is much much much better than dumb monsters just charging you. How can you not grasp that for the billionth time? ALTTP ''challenge'' and strategy>OOT. OOT dynamic and reactive enemies>>>>>>>>>ALTTP shit dumb enemies. The difference in enemy behavior and dynamism in OOT over ALTTP is far larger than the basically non existent AI of enemies in ALTTP. I also like how you mentioned Dark Link and Iron Knuckes, these two fights were better than anything ALTTP could muster. It makes it even worse for your argument.

Because The Minish Cap actually had good combat even for a limited 2D game. that's why I brought it up. ALTTP has the most generic combat possible. It's the same combat system as the pocket Zelda for ****'s sake. Don't tell me that's better than the 3D combat of OOT which while not great went far beyond just hitting shit rushing you with your sword. Again, name 3D adventure games with a better combat system released around the same time or before.

How is that colossal fanboy territory? It's the highest rated game ever. It topped more lists than any other game. I personally prefer Majora's Mask, Chrono Trigger and Tales of Phantasia over it but there is certainly an argument for OOT being the best game of all time. Hell it IS considered the best game of all time.

> dynamic and reactive enemies

Are you trolling or are you actually that fucking dense? Dynamic and reactive? 90% of the enemies in OoT have a set pattern of > move to the side while blocking > attack and occasionally jumping in the case of minibosses. The AI in OoT is only slightly better than ALTTP because they maneuver around you to breach your defenses. Fair enough - the enemy AI is slightly better in OoT, but it doesn't change a damn thing because that very same AI has a set pattern that you get used to early on into the game so none of the enemies can kill you. In ALTTP, the unpredictability of the AI causes you to react to the situation as it comes, rather than what you've been hard wired to remember. You never know how the fight will play out so you need to be on your toes - but in OoT you always know what to expect from the enemy movement and attack patterns.

"I also like how you mentioned Dark Link and Iron Knuckes, these two fights were better than anything ALTTP could muster. It makes it even worse for your argument."

If my argument was to completely and conclusively say all of OoT's enemies were predictable and stupid, then yeah - that certainly would make it worse for my arguments, but it wasn't and it doesn't. If all enemies in the game were like the Iron Knuckle and all minibosses were like Dark Link, then OoT would have the greatest combat out of any zelda game period.

"Don't tell me that's better than the 3D combat of OOT which while not great went far beyond just hitting shit rushing you with your sword."

Okay I'll tell you exactly that. It's better than the 3D combat of OOT which while not great simply changed the formula from hitting shit rushing you with your sword to hitting shit rushing with your sword after waiting 5 seconds for them to hit your shield. LUL Z TRGETING IZ SO INNOVATIV DA COMBAT IS SO REACTIVE N DA ENEMIES R SO SMRT. The way you describe it makes me think that you're confusing this for a Dark Souls discussion or something. Quit exaggerating the quality of OoT's combat - we both know it's just a game of hit shield > get shield hit > attack enemy for 90% of the game's enemies besides the ones that shoot projectiles at you.

"It's the highest rated game ever. It topped more lists than any other game."

I know I've said this countless times but I'll say it again. Who fucking cares? People have nostalgic hard ons for it. Always have, always will. People have gone so far as to call it the greatest video game in existence, which is fucking insane on so many levels. There are so many games that did what OoT did and did it better [including actual Zelda games for that matter] and people give that title to OoT? If that's not a nostalgic bias I don't know what is. I'm sorry you and so many people like to wear your rose coloured goggles but OoT is an incredibly flawed game, and because it has flaws that aren't in later installments, it's completely illogical to hail it as the best. I say this same thing to the people that say Mario 64 is better than the Galaxy games or 3D World despite it having arguably the worst platforming in the entire series. Nostalgia - that's the only reason these games are so critically acclaimed.