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#1  Edited By Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

@ShaineTheNerd said:

@tormentos: And PS4 is stuck with OpenGL. Look up Jonathon Blow's last two weeks of tweets and look how fun Open is to program on.

PS4 doesn't use OpenGL. I don't know why everyone thinks this, but it's not true and never was.

EDIT: the developers of The Crew talk about the PS4 API's in this article, if anyone is interested.

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#2 Teuf_
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@osan0 said:

i dont see devs writing DX code, X1 code, PS4 code and mantle code. the AMD GPUs will just be covered under the DX code if mantle code cant be used anywhere else.


I'm sure most PC games won't bother with it, but probably at least a few high-profile games.

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#3 Teuf_
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@TrooperManaic said:

Almost everything that OpenGL is, Microsoft copied. Also OpenGL is extremely powerful, almost to the point where it could emulate any and all DirectX's graphical pipelines.

The only people who refute this, is the ones who have never programmed with it before. I have used both DirectX and OpenGL's pipelines in my projects and what I have to say about them both is that its a bit easier to work with DirectX but also unoptimized in allot of aspects. The whole API is designed for people who don't have the time to learn the nitty gritty of what state blocks, vertex, and pixel shaders do and how they are or should be applied to your 3d scene. OpenGL on the other hand, at this point has just about every feature DirectX has but is much more difficult to program for, this may be due to the fact that its actively programmed on unix/linux Solaris and only ported to windows.

I hope the new Steam OS shows people the true power of OpenGL and exposes the marketing fraud DirectX has forced down peoples throats.

Modern OpenGL and D3D almost exactly the same extractions and pipelines, and for the most part expose the same exact level of functionality and performance (Nvidia's extensions for bindless textures and bindless multi draw indirect would probably be the most notable exception). Most of the differences between the two are completely superficial and stylistic in nature. I have no clue what would make you think that D3D is "designed for people who don't have the time to learn the nitty gritty of what state blocks, vertex, and pixel shaders do", considering that "state blocks" considering that you literally can't draw anything at all in modern D3D without using state blocks and shaders.

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#4  Edited By Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

@psymon100 said:

I have some questions:

Given: DirectX of course, is proprietary to Windows, 360, XB1.

Would I be right to assume the XB1's hardware is capable of OpenGL/Mantle, but MS simply don't allow it's use? They want DirectX API's utilised? I suspect that yes - the hardware is capable but MS block it.

Would I be right to assume that OpenGL is available on: Wii U, Windows PCs, Mac PCs, Linux PCs, PS4? If yes, could this mean an OpenGL game requires special attention (Direct3D renderer at the least) to run on Xbox One? I'd suspect it's yes and yes.

Would I be right to assume that Mantle is available on: Any platform of PC with a compatible AMD card, and PS4? I'd suspect yes.

I'm very interested in this. It sounds to me like MS are putting up artificial barriers, barriers which could delay release of games to Xbox One, or prevent it altogether.

DirectX is "proprietary" in the sense that MS created it and is solely responsible for making new version, but legally-speaking it's not actually exclusive to Microsoft. Anyone else can implement that same API (or parts of it) if they have sufficient motivation to do so. For instance Valve uses an "implementation" of D3D that they use on Linux, where the D3D calls are implemented using OpenGL.

Since XB1's GPU uses GCN architecture it's highly likely that most of Mantle could be made to work with its GPU, but there's not really much point in doing this outside of making porting easier for a game that already uses Mantle. If it were to happen it would be on MS to make it happen, and I don't see why they would spend time and money on it. The version of DirectX that they use on XB1 probably already provides low-level access to the hardware. That was definitely the case on the 360, where the API resembled D3D9 at a high level (and you could treat it as such if you wanted to make porting easier), but it provided extra layers of low-level access that were specifically tailored to its GPU. The same goes for OpenGL: MS could implement it if they wanted to, but there's no reason outside of making porting easier.

OpenGL is available on Mac/Windows/Linux PC's, and mobile phones/tablets. The only time its showed up on consoles was PS3 which had a stripped-down version of OpenGL available to make porting easier. However most games didn't use it, and uses the low-level API instead. PS4 has its own custom API that's tailored to the hardware.

I don't know if they've announced platforms and hardware for Mantle yet. Windows is a given, but Linux seems like a possibility as well (especially if Steam Boxes become popular). It's built around GCN, so it's probably only going to work on 7700/7800/7900-series cards, Sea Islands 8000 series cards, and the new Rx 200 line that was just announced. I very much doubt that it will show up on PS4, since they have their own API.

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#5  Edited By Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

85K is still a lot of triangles. 150k was probably excessive.

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#6 Teuf_
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@Pedro said:

@S0lidSnake:

I know you fancy these long drawn arguments. The reality is that you are hell bent on looking at things from a specific angle with almost no regards to other elements in the equation. The GCN architecture according to AMD features hardware encoding which utilizes the CU(Compute Units for video encoding). It is also mentioned here page 16 where it shows a diagram of the hybrid encoding of video content. This technology is reliant on the GPU because of the programmable nature of GCN architecture. Feel free to argue against this. One of the main selling points over the last two or three years for high end video cards is hardware encoding using the raw parallel processing of the GPU.

Since AMD docs indicate that the GPU would be handling video encoding and decoding then it is expected since both systems are based on the same architecture the same reservations would exist for the PS4. Fortunately the PS4 has more CUs but it does not change the need for this reservation. Again feel free to link to docs indicating that AMD encoding solution is NOT GPU based.


It has a full hardware encoder, it doesn't require any compute resources. That diagram is demonstrating that parts of it are programmable if you wanted to do a hybrid solution, which could let you use customized algorithms and/or encode faster than 60fps. There's a brief overview in this article.

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#7 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

Not unless you consider a tablet controller to be a "big leap".

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#8  Edited By Teuf_
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@Randolph said:

Put the GENERAL back in Games Discussion. Would love for you guys who support this idea to chime in on that thread. Maybe if we get our resident mods to back it up that would help as well. I mean, they apparently weren't so attached to the "Primary" tag, so... what the hell? Why not make it the GGD again? It's just a name, but it would be a nice nod to the history of this very long running community. (I know myself, Shame-Us, and Pedro at least have been in here since 2001)

I still call it GGD, so I would support this.

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#9  Edited By Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

Just an FYI, all GCN-based GPU's have a hardware H.264 encoder that can handle 1080p at 60fps.

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#10 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

While the Thief franchise isn't exactly a household, it was decently popular back in the day and had a strong following of fans. They probably figure that the remains of this following will help hype up other games by talking about how much they liked the old games, and how they would want to play the new one.