[QUOTE="muffdiver1982"][QUOTE="bgres077"] [QUOTE="muffdiver1982"][QUOTE="Espurs117"][QUOTE="Superbustacap"] [QUOTE="Espurs117"][QUOTE="Superbustacap"] [QUOTE="sfgiantsfan8291"] [QUOTE="Espurs117"]

Easy question.........he went to Penn State.

Espurs117

Honestly thats why he fell, dude i watched all of the NFL Draft and even before it they were scared of that. Remember Cedric Benson?....oh no he looks like Ricky Williams with that hair and he went to texas too!....he had to cut off his hair just to get drafted highly. Sounds stupid but thats the NFL scouts for you.

cuz he shaved his head, and went public saying his nothing like Ricky.

Most of this doesn't seem to make any sense. Penn State running backs have a history of turning into busts, just like Florida receivers. That's all true. Cedric Benson shaved his head because he was sick of the comparisons with Ricky. Shaving his head had nothing to do with his draft status. He was projected in the top 5 regardless. It just came down to what the order would be between Cadillac, Ronnie Brown, and Cedric Benson. Most of the contraversy was about his character, and how he said that he'd rather win the Heisman than win a National Championship. That showed him as selfish and putting himself before the team. Teams put character over ability now a days. You'd think the NFL was running an election or popularity contest rather than a professional sports league. Character's important, but when you have a guy as talented as T.O., for instance, and his character issues could land him out of job, it is completely insane. Just like how Adrian McPherson dropped into the 5th round last year, He's going to be a stud. Let's not forget about Marcus Vick going undrafted this year. He could very well become a player if he studies hard and some team keeps him as a slash QB. I think he's better than Kordell Stewart, it's not much of a comparison, but Stewart was a 2nd round pick.

Who's a racist bastard? I thought the NFL majority is African-American

Were you in a draft war room??? It's foolhardy to think that a hair cut would change your draft status or anytime someone draws comparisons to a "problem child" they would be seeing the guys from "Queer-Eye" for a makeover.  Come on!  The argument is weak, and defies any business or human logic.  The Bears' drafted him at their slot because: a.)Thomas Jones was considered a relative bust until having a 1,300 yard rushing season last year, and didn't know how he would pan out; and b.) They needed someone to gain that short yardage for them.  If the NFL was like that, then every player coming out of the ghetto to be drafted would be said to have a drug addiction or be a problem child.  Instead of how they strove to overcome adversity and make it to the NFL draft.  The only way you could touch the NFL's first round then would be to come from a middle class to NFL pedigree type family.  Sportswriters write things about players and make these stories so people think a player will slip.  You should know that the NFL draft is  the biggest illusion show on Earth.  GM's don't give up there game plan and link bad information to the media so they can gain leverage in trying to acquire certain players.  The only thing shaving his head did, was make him more aerodynamic.

Well you must have not seen the predraft shows. All the talk was about him being like Ricky. This is true, its stupid but its true. Come draft day you dont wanna take any chances on sliding down and loosing millions, so he shaved it. The NFL scouts are dumb but they dont wanna take chances after all the team  is gonna pay them millions of dollars, and their jobs are on the line.

I watch everything.  I haven't missed a draft in quite sometime.  Scouts get paid to evaluate talent, and they get paid well.  Drafting someone based on similarities is dumb, and scouts evaluate talent and then GM's, coaches and owners decide who they are going to take.  The hair cutting was a publicity stunt, and NFL teams use these type of negative attributes in order to gain leverage in the draft and when signing a player.  The only thing in question was his me-first attitude which he showed when he said he wanted the Heisman more than a National Championship.  If you believed the sports writers than Aaron Rodgers would have been the first pick up until a couple days before the draft.  Every year scouts say something negative about all the top athletes in a draft, and every year they get picked that high regardless.  The only thing is some people shift a couple slots, or fall off completely because their position is no longer a priority at that time.  Don't believe he fell because of the similarities to Ricky.  If Ricky hadn't popped for pot then retired out of blue, they would have found another problem with Cedric Benson.  Something stupid like he doesn't square his shoulders properly, or he doesn't catch the ball well out of the backfield.  Just like they always bash a quarterbacks mechanics.  That's like believing tht Tennessee was going to draft Leinart because every reporter said that it was his destiny with Norm Chow as the offensive coordinator.  It's pure speculation.  The draft is a huge magic show and the time of year that all organizations start lying like crazy.  Benson bought into it.  Hair doesn't change a persons personality.  When it comes to a few million dollars versus winning a couple of games, hair is the least of the worries.  Those teams had their mind made up long before the draft about Benson, and the Bears would have drafted him regardless, whether or not he shaved his head or not.  Let's not forget that Ricky's problem deals with injuries and pot use.  He was a pretty good back otherwise, I mean he does have a rushing title!  The hair argument is upsurd.  Honestly, big business here.  Winning is the ultimate goal.  Reflect on past drafts and moves that mad little sense and past news and you will see that there is truth in what I say.  Benson would have had to have a prior arrest in order to lose draft stock or disciplinary problems in college.  He had none to my recollection.   

L.J. fell in that draft, because RB wasn't a main priority and/or it was over shadowed by the talent or needs of other players.  L.J. also didn't have the same type of coverage as Curtis Enis or Ki-Jana Carter, so he wasn't as big of a name. 

But the Steelers strictly run the ball!  They get a lead and they run right, run left, then they run up the middle and than they punt.  Hines Ward Had had more TD receptions than everyone put together on his team. (11:10)  He had almost double the receiving yards than Antwan Randle-El.  The Steelers have been sickly conservative since they hired Bill Cowher as their coach.   You have to take into account the systems as well. 

You misspelled easily spelled words/names.  You also said I was going back and contradicting myself because I said T.O. was the best receiver in the league.  I had said that like 20 posts ago.  I also ended the post as "I wondered why Hines Ward isn't in this debate" comment.  Besides, I said Chambers might be top 10 worthy.  Everyone between 8-15 are debatable. 

You arguments are flawed because you are strictly scrathing the surface.  according to your arguments, because of statistics, that Texas Tech quarterbacks are the best in college football history because they started rewriting record books the last couple years and putting up Godly like passing numbers.  I might be using college as a reference but I think it makes a relative point.  Systems dictate stats.  The only thing that can't be measured by systems is wins and losses.  Without Steve Smith, the Panthers have no bite. Without Hines Ward, the Steelers are strictly a running team and don't make the playoffs this year or win the Super Bowl.  Without T.O., teams lose a knockout punch and have to hope for miracle plays and turnovers in order to win.   The Vikings were an on the brink team when they drafted Moss at 21.  They weren't a bad team.  They went 15-1 and lost in the NFC championship.  Off a missed field goal nonetheless and to the Falcons of all teams.  They haven't been able to duplicate that kind of success since.  Sure his stats were always great, but when he left, they were an 8-8 team.  The following year they weren't much different.  He went to the Raiders and didn't make a splash there at all.  If he played 100% all the time, he would be the man.  He doesn't and his best 25% of the time is better than anyone elses 25% of the time.  But his 25% isn't better than other receivers 100%.  He has the talent to be the all-time greatest, but he doesn't have the heart.  Heart is what seperates the Champions from the greats.  Steve Smith, T.O., Hines Ward, and Chad Johnson all have great heart.  Hines Ward deserves to be in this discussion, and he is under-appreciated.

Trust me, I'm a Dolphins fan, and I'm a huge fan of Chris Chambers.  He's a great receiver but not near the best.  He would be higher if he could carry the Dolphins, but they rely too heavily on the running game now.  He did help the Dolphins to a 9-7 record last year though.  Although the year before they were 2-14.  It would be a stronger argument if he was able to hold together the injury plagued/Ricky Williamless team that went 2-14, and helped them go 6-10.  I think he's a great player just not as big of a difference maker as the others.  Maybe if Don Shula was still coach he would be ranked higher.  Maybe this year will be different now that they have a better QB throwing the ball.  I do think he is a top 10 WR though.  He plays consistently.

It's definitely debatable though!  I'd like to hear the argument for him though.   I do think he is more deserving than Randy Moss.  I thought we were talking about who's the best at their position in real life, not who's worth more in a fantasy league.  Moss just needs to play 100% instead of playing bored all the time.  If he did that he would probably be the greatest ever, and blow every record out of the books.

 I have always said T.O. is the best receiver in the game.  I just wanted to know why Hines Ward wasn't in this discussion being he is well deserving.  You also mentioned AI and Kevin Garnett in another post.  You haven't done anything to back up any of your arguments, and I truly believe you are on here to strictly cause trouble.  You act all nonchalant about talking basketball and using it to strengthen a seemingly pointless argument.  Everything you've stated is based strictly on opinion with no facts other than estimated and elevated statistics.  The point of the misspelled words is that it's a telltale sign of a troll.  Especially if they are purposefully misspelled.  Now you comeback and twist my words, implying things that I had never said.  Read all my posts!  Don't dig too deeply with your Q-tip next time, I think you are puncturing your brain!

What are you talking about?  Before Vick, the playoffs were a fantasy!  The Falcons would have been drafting what #5 the year they got Vick after trading up to the #1 spot.  Whenever he's healthy they have the chance and hopes of winning their division and/or making the playoffs.  He does what very few quarterback ever were able to do, and that's give you more than two options.  When he's on the field and they line up to pass, you have to watch him otherwise he'll run for a 1st down or a touchdown.  It's a nightmare for opposing defenses.  His only problems are his arm strength and being injury prone.  Matt Schaub had a couple good games, but all hope of playoffs die whenever Vick is not on that field.  You have to remember that team was built to utilize all of Vick's talents.  That team is just missing a couple of pieces.  Maybe Jerry Porter would be a step in the right direction.

Ok, you all have gone mental.  The guy made an arguement that when he made an arguement to Paul Pierce as the best player in the NBA, that he got the same response as anyone argueing for Hines Ward being named as one of the best 5 receivers.  You realize that the guy is a troll right?!?  It's obvious with all the purposely misspelled words.  He did a good job concealing it and I took the bait. 

If you are going to bash me for rebutting his arguement using NBA players as a reference than you better bash him as well.  What you did was single me out which is wrong. 

That short statement was made in order to prove your 2nd NBA reference/arguement versus the top receivers in the game.  I had left it out of my previous arguement, which would have been acceptable by Espus had they been together.  I can't believe how anal you guys can be and split hairs over something like that.  Who cares what the arguement is about as long as this thread stays on topic which it has!  It was a dual argument that was based solely on "What makes an NFL player considered one of the best at what he does?".  Limiting how you argue this point makes argueing basically useless, being it limits ammunition going into battle.  It's like telling a team you are only allowed to run a base 4-3 with no blitzing.  Like the Pro Bowl, which is pointless.  I guess I had to use a football reference being it seems that all other arguments are rendered irrelevant based strictly on their nature rather than their actual revelance to an arguement.  Maybe I see the grey instead of just black and white. 

Hines Ward will never reach those type of numbers as a member of the Steelers.  As long as Bill Cowher is their coach, they are going to run 60-70% of the time.  The fact that Hines Ward dominated all statistical offensive categories proves how vital he is for his team.  Your arguments for Moss prove nothing.  So what if he was hurt?  He didn't do anything worth talking about when he was healthy last year.  Moss was also on a pass happy offense in Minnesota, and with Culpepper could throw him a deep ball every other play.  They haven't been all that dominating since Moss' rookie season, and get bumped and skate into the playoffs every other year.  Two years ago they got bumped in with an 8-8 record or something like that.  Then they were always a barely .500.  I think they only had two really good years with Moss.  Besides, he's admitted he only plays 100% about 25% of the time.  He takes plays off!  If he gave it his all every play, maybe then he would be the best, but he doesn't.  He's only the best 25% of the time which isn't very consistant.  Chad Johnson was good before carson Palmer took over two years ago.  Thanks for the comment MOTO (Master of the obvious).  He was a great player back when Kitna was QB, and helped them to a 9-7 record.  Something the Bengals hadn't seen for over a decade.  Carson Palmer turned them into an elite team last year.  Point being, Chad Johnson was the piece that put this organization in the right direction.  Therefore he's a difference maker.  T.O. left about a .500 and they went 2-14 the following year.  He goes to a perrenial 11-5 team and arrives and would have made them a 15-1 had he not gotten injured and if teams didn't skate and rest players after getting home field advantage.  He leaves said team, and they go, what was it 6-10.  These guys don't just win games by their exploded statistics, it's based on how much of their teams total offense they account for.  T.O., Chad Johnson, Steve Smith, and Hines Ward were easily the most productive players on their teams.  You take anyone of those four off their teams and you can kiss their playoff hopes or home field good-bye.  Randy Moss can catch a 100 balls for 1,500 yards and 15 TD's all he wants, but he's never going to make a mediocre team great.  He tried to be a leader, and failed.  He tried have the coachs throw him 60% of the passes one season, and that was a horrible idea. 

Hines Ward is under-appreciated because he is on one of the more boring offenses in the league.  They get a lead and then they run you to death.  He is probably the most well-rounded WR in the game.   

[QUOTE="muffdiver1982"][QUOTE="Espurs117"][QUOTE="Superbustacap"] [QUOTE="Espurs117"][QUOTE="Superbustacap"] [QUOTE="sfgiantsfan8291"] [QUOTE="Espurs117"]

Easy question.........he went to Penn State.

bgres077

Honestly thats why he fell, dude i watched all of the NFL Draft and even before it they were scared of that. Remember Cedric Benson?....oh no he looks like Ricky Williams with that hair and he went to texas too!....he had to cut off his hair just to get drafted highly. Sounds stupid but thats the NFL scouts for you.

cuz he shaved his head, and went public saying his nothing like Ricky.

Most of this doesn't seem to make any sense. Penn State running backs have a history of turning into busts, just like Florida receivers. That's all true. Cedric Benson shaved his head because he was sick of the comparisons with Ricky. Shaving his head had nothing to do with his draft status. He was projected in the top 5 regardless. It just came down to what the order would be between Cadillac, Ronnie Brown, and Cedric Benson. Most of the contraversy was about his character, and how he said that he'd rather win the Heisman than win a National Championship. That showed him as selfish and putting himself before the team. Teams put character over ability now a days. You'd think the NFL was running an election or popularity contest rather than a professional sports league. Character's important, but when you have a guy as talented as T.O., for instance, and his character issues could land him out of job, it is completely insane. Just like how Adrian McPherson dropped into the 5th round last year, He's going to be a stud. Let's not forget about Marcus Vick going undrafted this year. He could very well become a player if he studies hard and some team keeps him as a slash QB. I think he's better than Kordell Stewart, it's not much of a comparison, but Stewart was a 2nd round pick.

Who's a racist bastard? I thought the NFL majority is African-American

Were you in a draft war room??? It's foolhardy to think that a hair cut would change your draft status or anytime someone draws comparisons to a "problem child" they would be seeing the guys from "Queer-Eye" for a makeover.  Come on!  The argument is weak, and defies any business or human logic.  The Bears' drafted him at their slot because: a.)Thomas Jones was considered a relative bust until having a 1,300 yard rushing season last year, and didn't know how he would pan out; and b.) They needed someone to gain that short yardage for them.  If the NFL was like that, then every player coming out of the ghetto to be drafted would be said to have a drug addiction or be a problem child.  Instead of how they strove to overcome adversity and make it to the NFL draft.  The only way you could touch the NFL's first round then would be to come from a middle class to NFL pedigree type family.  Sportswriters write things about players and make these stories so people think a player will slip.  You should know that the NFL draft is  the biggest illusion show on Earth.  GM's don't give up there game plan and link bad information to the media so they can gain leverage in trying to acquire certain players.  The only thing shaving his head did, was make him more aerodynamic.

[QUOTE="Superbustacap"] [QUOTE="Espurs117"][QUOTE="Superbustacap"] [QUOTE="sfgiantsfan8291"] [QUOTE="Espurs117"]

Easy question.........he went to Penn State.

Espurs117

Honestly thats why he fell, dude i watched all of the NFL Draft and even before it they were scared of that. Remember Cedric Benson?....oh no he looks like Ricky Williams with that hair and he went to texas too!....he had to cut off his hair just to get drafted highly. Sounds stupid but thats the NFL scouts for you.

cuz he shaved his head, and went public saying his nothing like Ricky.

Most of this doesn't seem to make any sense.  Penn State running backs have a history of turning into busts, just like Florida receivers.  That's all true.  Cedric Benson shaved his head because he was sick of the comparisons with Ricky.  Shaving his head had nothing to do with his draft status.  He was projected in the top 5 regardless.  It just came down to what the order would be between Cadillac, Ronnie Brown, and Cedric Benson.  Most of the contraversy was about his character, and how he said that he'd rather win the Heisman than win a National Championship.  That showed him as selfish and putting himself before the team.  Teams put character over ability now a days.  You'd think the NFL was running an election or popularity contest rather than a professional sports league.  Character's important, but when you have a guy as talented as T.O., for instance, and his character issues could land him out of job, it is completely insane.   Just like how Adrian McPherson dropped into the 5th round last year, He's going to be a stud.  Let's not forget about Marcus Vick going undrafted this year.  He could very well become a player if he studies hard and some team keeps him as a slash QB.  I think he's better than Kordell Stewart, it's not much of a comparison, but Stewart was a 2nd round pick.

Who's a racist bastard?  I thought the NFL majority is African-American