The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

It's not evasion. I simply require some degree of intelligence and resourcefulness from people who wish to try to "deconstruct" my faith and religion. This isn't a high school class. I shouldn't have to give you a list of terms. It's like trying to argue with a nuclear physicist and expecting him to tell you what an atom is. Android339

I didn't get to study Mormonism in high school. Wouldn't you expect a nuclear physicist to be able tell you what an atom is quite accurately?

Are you saying that I'm somehow not intelligent enough to learn about Mormonism from you? (Please bear in mind that you also stated that I "wore my intellectualism on my sleave".) Perhaps you should have prefaced the original post with some sort of warning about minimum knowledge requirements.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Thanks again. I've Googled everything I need to know about Mormonism now. That stuff about keys and priests was simple!

Android339

It really is.

Not really! I was trying out a bit of off-handedness myself! If you can't be bothered to answer a simple question, I'll remain ignorant to your views about the priests and keys.

You were asking about the differences between the various Protestant branches. As for the differences between Mormonism and Protestantism, Mormons believe in the Book of Mormon, the priesthood authority of the Church, modern revelation, and that the keys of the priesthood were lost when all the apostles were killed. And thank God you've finally learned how to use Google.

Android339

It is odd now you're answering my basic questions, despite Google, but thanks for your renewed efforts. So Mormonism has a more Catholic view of soteriology than Protestant. But the new book must be the most dividing issue between the faiths. Don't thank God - thank Larry Page.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

But why pre-suppose what anyone knows though? As we've seen, it is a rather poor way to frame a debate. The best way for me is to try establishing what people think with questions, rather than making assumptions about it.

Android339

A rather poor way to debate someone is not knowing anything about what you're going to debate about.

I agree - that must be a terrible way to debate. What are you suggesting?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheism"]

The purpose of the atheism union is to discuss religion. My own particular purpose is to deconstruct ideas, since this makes them easier for me to digest.

Android339

I need to go slow for you. Got it.

No, I think you missed it. Its not the speed - its the size.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

An ecumenical sense is a sense of Christian unity, as per definition (according to Merriam-Webster). There is broad doctrinal agreement within the Protestant church, (according to Google, anyway).

Android339

As I said, unity in an ecumenical sense. "Ecumenical" does not imply they all believe the same thing. It implies rather the opposite, that they believe different things, but they are still united as Christians. And you tell me one point of doctrine that you suppose all Protestants agree on, and there will be at least one other Protestant Church that disagrees. Aside from the basics, probably. A lot of them have a lot of things they agree on, but there's also a lot they don't agree on. I don't know how many times I've ridden in various Church buses throughout Lebanon while I was exploring, only to hear the pastor talk about the doctrinal errors a Church passed us by believes in. If they all believed the same thing, there would be no need for 33, 000 different denominations.

Here's a US published Merriam Webster ecumenical definition again: "a: of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches b : promoting or tending toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation". When you say they all believe different things but are all Christians, where exactly are these huge bones of contention between those faith that repel you from it? Surely they essentially believe the same thing.

The 33,000 number keeps popping up, so seems important to you. You must at least know the polar extremes of these views and what your own belief is regarding them. If the Christian church is as divided as you say, why would they want to unify in vast pan-european or global organisations?

Do you think you believe, perceive and have exactly the same faith as every other Mormon? Would you account for variances in the ways other Mormons believe?

It is. The LDS Church is a Mormon Church. You can be a Mormon without being part of the Church. The LDS Church is simply the main one, the biggest one. The others are offshoots. Just as mainstream Christians can be Christians without being part of a Christian Church, Mormons can be Mormons without being part of the LDS Church, but they generally have to be part of some kind of Mormon Church that claims prophetic succession, because that's generally a big deal.

Android339

Why would you discount Mormons that do not claim prophetic succession? Why is it such a big deal?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Can we discuss miracles and intellectualism in the same sentence? What is the intellectual appeal of a miracle?

Android339

It depends on what type of miracle. Consider the Hebrew poetic form of chiasmus as found in the Book of Mormon.

They were also found in the bible, so Smith would have had plenty of examples to lead him. What has this to do with an intellectual argument for Mormonism?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

"Worthy" in what way are the male members? Why wait until 1978 to reveal that black men were worthy of priesthood?

Android339

In the way that you've been following the Law of Chastity, the Word of Wisdom, etc. It was not that black men weren't themselves worthy. It's that they were denied it because of their fathers. Rather, great-great-great-whatever-fathers. An era of change in the world that is more accepting of black people is an appropriate era to lift the ban. Consider that when Jesus came He extended the priesthood as well.

How did Jesus form a priesthood? Didn't he teach about having a personal relationship with God? Why should certain religious doctrine become inappropriate at a certain time? Will women or homosexuals ever be allowed into the Mormon priesthood and be granted revelation abilities? If society goes that way, will Mormonism have any other choice than to go with it?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

How can you apply textual criticism to a source text that does not exist? Hasn't the whole "reformed Egyptian" myth been thoroughly de-bunked now?

Android339

You don't apply it to the source text, then. Apply it to the version we have. And no, it hasn't, because it's not a myth.

I don't make the rules up for textual criticism, so forgetting about the source texts sounds like an evasion for this technique.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Why is your knowledge hesitant on this? Isn't the Smith revelation the entire basis for the Book of Mormon?

Android339

Funny you should presume to think that my knowledge is hesitant concerning this. The Smith revelation? I assume you're talking about the translation process of the Book of Mormon?

I only enquired about hesitance since you prefaced your answer with "from what I'm aware", so its not that funny, really. I am indeed talking about the translation process.

the teachings and the lessons and the scriptures all make the most sense really the other extra scriptures we have had a complete picture where as if you take the bible alone it really appears to be lacking something does it not?. and personally i like the format of being able to speak up in sunday if you disagree with something so if your teacher maybe has it all backwards and you have a quote from the scriptures they perhaps missed it can be corrected and discussed. i think that format does perhaps attract some people but again i cant speak for everyone the attraction to the church is as stated again reading the book of mormon and praying about it unless you do that youll never quite get the attraction to it. and besides islam or at least its leaders of its countries hate america and israel im not all too family with the religion otherwise

tachikoma679

Personally, I think the bible has too much already! So no, I don't think it lacks anything except a ring of truth. The method of teaching and "debate" within the Mormon faith seems entirely similar to other Chritian faiths.

I'm not sure asking someone to read a whole book, then expect them to automatically share your view is expecting too much. Other faiths seem to be able to condense their core beliefs, values and origins into snappy messages that they propagate. I wondered what sort of evangelism would persuade someone over to Mormonism.

the view on america is....its the choice land above all other lands...now moses lead his people to a choice land....but not a choice land above all other lands before you ask. we also hold the view america is special and divinely inspired and one of its greatest purposes was to in fact grant religious freedom so that God could restore his church and notice even with that mormons did got a death order from the US government....and remain to be the only church is USA history with that distinctive honor.

tachikoma679

Why be proud of getting a death order? I still can't see how a religion can be nationalist, or so caught up in its own history. Would international Mormons desire to move to the USA?

why cant God authorize war? any passing study of our relgion seems to be clear if your wicked hes going to destroy you unless you repent. furthermore we actually have on scripture that says war is ok only if The LOrd authorizes it. hell the bible alone seems to be full of wicked folks getting destroyed so please dont discuss Christianity and somehow not think GOd wont authorize war that very notion is laughable. and please why exactly is the only corrupt after a revelation? LOL seriously anybody even a 4 year old can tell me politicians are lieing scum bags....honestly this is cherry picking a fairly obvious detail that government is corrupt really every government is and becoming more so by the second it seems. i dont live in chine or britian but i still know enough to know you have liars running the country. honestly man.....sorry no offense but this was a dumb question. but if you must know i'd have to guess it would be considered uncorrputed after it starts following the constitution again im not entirely sure nothing more is said on the matter other than the elders will save the country no how when or where. unless of course you dont think the governments are corrupt? and what do you suppose he does to the wicked unbeleivers that go around killing tons of folks? have us turn our cheek and take it so that the whole world is plunged into darkness?

tachikoma679

If you think God authorises war then God can only be vengeful. I'd personally wonder what the point would be of worshiping a God that could be so amoral. Not all politicians are scum-bags. Perhaps your democratic system is different to mine. We don't have a constitution in the UK and I'm not sure I'd want one, give all the problems I see it cause within the USA, in many cases having the opposite effect than intended (i.e. freedom to bear arms).

yes personal testimony is subjective and i am all for objective reasoning. but to understand why i chose LDS over other churches is almost impossilbe without reading the book of mormon and praying about it. it really is as its the prayer and confirmation you get that makes you understand it. its that simple unless you do it you wont have that full grasp only a part of it which is like seeing half the tv screen your still missing half the show. that said why dont you read it and pray about it with and open heart and mind as ive suggested that is if you truely want to understand the LDS faith as you seem to be trying figure it all out with your barrage of questions. come on what do you have to lose exactly....not afraid you might actually find God are you now? yes as far as the head of the church only authorized mormons can get those revelations we call have receive personal ones. the original break was they didnt think young was the next prophet and perhaps other things but this was largely it they thought it should of been smiths son well ya that and polygamny but ive already explained that and so has android. and sure you may be able to have a revelation but it would contain to you and you only well and perhaps your family and friends. only the authorized heads of the church can receive guidances for the whole church. this authority of course comes soley from Christ.

tachikoma679

I have a problem in that I have no idea what praying is. I remember "praying" as a child. I was taught to close my eyes and put my hands together and think of God. I've always had no idea of what God was like, since I was also told God was beyond human conception. So I have sat there, eyes closed, hands clasped, honestly wanting to engage with faith, trying to think of a supernatural force that was responsible for me and everything around me. It didn't work repeatedly then and it won't work now. Words like "pray", "open heart" and "revelation" are difficult words to actualise for me since I don't really know what they mean. I'm confident I have the same feelings and senses as you, so the difference is in our perception rather than in anything I'm doing wrong.

ok how about the countless times its been used to heal someone? i can recall myself being healed instantly i can recall going from massive high fever to jumping straight up and down further more i was probably 7 at the time this happened? surely these arent all just random instant stimulation? or how about asking for a blessing on injured limbs that look broken yet end up being merely bruised and have a quick recovery? honestly i can find countless examples for you to try and disprove. never mind if i seek out stories that have been published about it and stop just talking about my own personal experiences. youd never be able to scratch them all and evne then your arguements for the current two arent very strong especially if you asks the people invovled and even looking objectively bread does not defrost from solid rock to ediable in 5 minutes it just doesnt. or while were trying to disprove it go google mormon patriachal blessing go have fun disproving those you honestly cant account for it. heck my own and im sure many others contain thoughts that were secret in our minds to us and us alone that got revealed easily...agian google that patriachal blessing and have fun disproving those. and the best lawyers in the area dont magically crack under pressure they simply dont. people dont get hands put on their head and get pronounced they are healed and walk around find moments later without divine help. its just not happening. but feel free to explain these miracles other ways if you really think you can cover an explanation for all miracles ever go for it as essentially if you doubt the priesthood you must be able to explain every miracle ever because they all stem from God would they not and that is his power the priesthood. so i ask if you dont take my read a book of mormon challenge what exactly are you gathering by asking questions?tachikoma679

I wonder how many people of all faiths and none had thought they'd broken a bone, then found out that they hadn't. How many have found some injuries heal far quicker than expected? I have. There is also "regression to a mean" theory that suggests people seek treatment or faith heeling when the illness is at its worst and will improve anyway.

I'd have thought the burden would be on you to prove that less illness was recorded among Mormons that for other faiths living in your area. These objecvtive statistics would be available from your hospitals too. But rather than use this impartial data, the obvious preference is for positive but subjective supporting witness testimony. The reason other Christian faiths have cooled down significantly on their own claims for healing in the last 300 years is that objective evidence suggests there's no medical difference in belilevers regarding injuries or illnesses and spiritual healing has no effect over plaebo in clinical trials.

RationalAtheist, I have no respect for you or your debating tactics. You yell 'foul' when I 'evade', but your evasion tactics in the love, relationships, and sex thread are evident. Cease to talk with me. You're not worth talking to. Unless you wish to end your double standard. Then I'd imagine we can get somewhere. I don't imagine you will, however.Android339

Thanks for taking the tremendous amount of time you have in communicating with me. It was my pleasure.

Personally, I think the bible has too much already! So no, I don't think it lacks anything except a ring of truth. The method of teaching and "debate" within the Mormon faith seems entirely similar to other Chritian faiths. I'm not sure asking someone to read a whole book, then expect them to automatically share your view is expecting too much. Other faiths seem to be able to condense their core beliefs, values and origins into snappy messages that they propagate. I wondered what sort of evangelism would persuade someone over to Mormonism.

Why be proud of getting a death order? I still can't see how a religion can be nationalist, or so caught up in its own history. Would international Mormons desire to move to the USA?

If you think God authorises war then God can only be vengeful. I'd personally wonder what the point would be of worshiping a God that could be so amoral. Not all politicians are scum-bags. Perhaps your democratic system is different to mine. We don't have a constitution in the UK and I'm not sure I'd want one, give all the problems I see it cause within the USA, in many cases having the opposite effect than intended (i.e. freedom to bear arms).

RationalAtheist

I have a problem in that I have no idea what praying is. I remember "praying" as a child. I was taught to close my eyes and put my hands together and think of God. I've always had no idea of what God was like, since I was also told God was beyond human conception. So I have sat there, eyes closed, hands clasped, honestly wanting to engage with faith, trying to think of a supernatural force that was responsible for me and everything around me. It didn't work repeatedly then and it won't work now. Words like "pray", "open heart" and "revelation" are difficult words to actualise for me since I don't really know what they mean. I'm confident I have the same feelings and senses as you, so the difference is in our perception rather than in anything I'm doing wrong.

RationalAtheist

I wonder how many people of all faiths and none had thought they'd broken a bone, then found out that they hadn't. How many have found some injuries heal far quicker than expected? I have. There is also "regression to a mean" theory that suggests people seek treatment or faith heeling when the illness is at its worst and will improve anyway. I'd have thought the burden would be on you to prove that less illness was recorded among Mormons that for other faiths living in your area. These objecvtive statistics would be available from your hospitals too. But rather than use this impartial data, the obvious preference is for positive but subjective supporting witness testimony. The reason other Christian faiths have cooled down significantly on their own claims for healing in the last 300 years is that objective evidence suggests there's no medical difference in belilevers regarding injuries or illnesses and spiritual healing has no effect over plaebo in clinical trials

You've made it clear how you play the game, RationalAtheist. As long as you're in authority, you don't have to be right. You just have to be able to moderate me, or call on moderations when you are also guilty of the same offense. I'm resigning from this union. I'm done with the double standard. Nothing of benefit, not even more learning, can come from discussing anything with you.Android339

I'm not playing games - I'm asking questions in a forum.

We have had well over 40 exchanges in 5 days, so yo can't really accuse me of moderating what you say - only encouraging it. I have never moderated a single post of your's here, or anyone else's - ever. My authority only extends to what is considered off-topic or a personal attack in AU forums here. Anyway, the rule about going off topic not mattering here in AU was established positively some time ago too, by the leadership (and not I).

Your resignation from this union won't affect your ability to post here at all, only your ability to monitor events here through your profile. You'll still be welcome to post - member or not.

I do find your last sentence personally insulting, so perhaps our abilities to dissociate personal feelings and anger from debate could do with some honing.

well i dont have a snappy little card showing all my beleifs on it. honestly that particular card is probably for missionaries but i havent yet gone on one so i dont have the here these are our core values wrapped up in 3 sentences. i know what i beleive but havent exactly put it into a simple phrase. converting another Christian to the mormon faith is again personal. some latch onto the history of the book mormon others enjoy certain aspects of the faith others are just hit instantly with a testimony and power of The Holy Ghost. it really depends on the indivual and how open they are. in cases like that if i was argueing with someone much like i am now with you i am relying on the fact God shall guide me in my words as the church is very indivual on how it attracts people some people love a certain aspect and thats what hooks them. i am mean we beleive in CHrist atonement and he restored the church in the 1800s thats about the simplest way of putting it. or maybe you like the fact that through obediance you can live with your family forever. depends exactly what strikes you all important but normally each new person has 1 or 2 things that strike there attention. perhaps asks android if you havent ticked him off what his big 1 or 2 things were that converted him? i was born into it so i dont have the same conversion process.

tachikoma679

I guess what I was asking are what are the certain aspects of the faith that people latch on to. What do you mean by "open", as in it depending on how open people are? Does it mean "willing to accept"? If so, isn't that a dangerous prospect? After all, you could be accpting anything. Being open to other faiths too would only serve to confuse.

im not sure international mormons would desire to move to the USA or not but probably i would imagine would have a higher respect for the USA and probably desire some of the freedom aspects of the USA to be carried to their own home country. we just have a high respect for the USA and the constitution because our modern revelation says out right the Lord established America. nothing aobut you must move here i imagine thats up the indivual. well the bible does clearly state God is a vengeful God as one of his descriptions but he is also a God of love and a God of order etc. so you cant just slap on description on him and call it a day. your wicked he punishes you your good he rewards its really that simple. no reason why GOd has to be only vengeful yet a human can be loving to mom lie to my boss then kill my brother....why can God only have 1 emotion? the problem with said constitution is that our politicians dont abide by it what you see in the USA now is nowhere in line with the founders intended. and i'd be hardpressed to beleive you have honest leaders in the UK at least at any higher percentage than here. tachikoma679

Doesn't that show your modern revelation was set very much in an 1800s North American view of the world. If God created the world, why pick out one country for special treatment? I can understand the punishment post-death of a vengeful God, but there has been so much vengance against innocents all over the world in this life for a belief in any sort of benevolence from a Heavenly Father when I die.

If you have corrupt politicians, you can vote them out. In the UK, we sent 4 MPs to trial last week for fiddling their expenses. We also have a new government after 13 years, so the politicians are still relatively uncorrupted in their roles.

i see that would in fact pose a problem to my request. praying is quite simple and is perhaps something that is different in our church compared to the world. it is one of our differences. we very much take praying on an indivual relationship with GOd. here would be an example. get on your knees and start talking say something like this....Heavenly Father...*speak what is on your mind here whether that be you cant stand this guy tachikoma679 online that movie you just saw was awesome or about how your struggling in life with whatever it is or anything else or quite simply i want to get to know you better open my eyes and ears really speak from the heart....then at the end in the name of Jesus Christ Amen. most importantly think of it like this he already knows everything he just wants you to be honest and open to him about it he in fact is waiting for you to in a way pray or pick up the phone and call him and start talking. thats praying its simple and sweet. do this and read said book of mormon and while you might not instantly figure it all out youll get your answer once again dont expect everything over night Rome wasnt built in a day. never mind the fact reading a whole book takes more than a day and im basically saying read it pray on it and ponder it in fact im openly encouraging you to question it and truely wonder whether it is true or not. just try clear your mind on the matter and just do it its not hard. and its ok i suppose i should of realized you wouldnt know this but its ok ive seen many newcomers for a while in the beginning are like you perplexed on praying and really have no grasp on it or how to approach it and make it more complccated than it actually is. so if you feel weird or awkward or confused on what your doing its a fairly normal thing but most get it after a little while some get it quickly others dont it depends on the indivual sorry that made sound more complicated than it is it isnt i promise but simply trying to cover the usual new person newness to the that comes with it.

tachikoma679

Sure I've tried talking, both aloud and in my head. I can have an open mind and be as honest as I can, but have no idea about "from the heart". What you say about praying fits my understanding exactly. Suppose I chose a different religion, but used the same technique. Do you think I'd believe that one? I also worry that frequent repetition shares similarities to brainwashing.

Does praying need to be done with eyes closed and hands clasped? Can't it be a thought?

you are misunderstanding i never said mormons didnt get sick if we didnt blessings would never be used and i never said they worked 100% of the time a blessing could be a blessing of comfort to perhaps someone who is dieing and there has come so they receive a blessing a comfort. blessings arent quite as black and white as your thinking or so it appears your thinking that. we do fully take the approach of a blessing yes but then go see the doctor too granted God needs no doctor but he very much expects us to do what we can when we ask for his help and he'll do the rest. basically i give you blessing call you by say by what authority i do it and then guided by the Holy Ghost i speak what comes to mind and end it in the name Jesus CHrist amen. so you never really know exactly what your going to say in a blessing. the reason other faiths have cooled down is because as me and android have stated they lack the restored priesthood power so they speak for nothing so a catholic priest giving a blessing has no punch to it instead in that case it is merely praying and have THAT much faith in God that he'll heal you and in those cases he very well may but they sadly dont have the more direct and extra help of the actual priesthood. yes im saying faith is enough but also saying they arent a restored church so these instances probably arent near as common there.

tachikoma679

I don't think I ever did accuse you of saying that. I can see how blessings and healing are a comfort, but then so are many secular practices that comfort the sick.

I'm still a bit lost on the Catholic versus the actual priesthood. Why abandon one establishment to replace it with a largely similar one? Is there any other reason, aside from Smith's revelation, as to why priests are better able to serve and reveal to people than they are able to serve themselves?

if you can find actual stats on this go ahead im not going to look as what will this prove to you? if you dispute my claims and others as coincident why would stats prove a thing to you? ya they probably wouldnt. once again this is why God rarely uses displays of power to convince people but rather a witness through the power of The Holy Ghost to convince people and hence its exclusively the only way to get to hell is by denying The Holy Ghost. hence if you want that witness you should pray and read the book of mormon and youll get that witness. i gave you the challenge as you seem bent on disproving it despite every example i can tell you of how they worked and i still fail to see how youve disproved anything but again the proof i offer you is read and pray about and receive said witness honestly otherwise youll forever only see the tv screen half way with the otherh alf covered. you ask me to prove my words well there you go do that you might see right now how that can prove my words but you will should you do it.tachikoma679

Stats don't prove things - they provide evidence. Proof is a concept that people apply subjectively, according to their own standards and criteria. You say there is loads of proof that healing works, which would usually need some sort of medical evidence for popular acceptance. Such evidence would be easy to provide if your claim were true, since peoples' health is recorded statistically. Anocdotal evidence is generally suspicious - if you take that into account, we'd have to consider aliens, monsters, ghosts, astrolgy and chiropracters as justified.

I would never try and disprove anything. I am sorry if that's what you thought I was doing. I was offering other possible explanations. I personally believe that disproof is a logical fallacy. This means it is not logically possible to disprove anything. For instance, as Bertrand Russell points out, how would you go about disproving that an invisible teapot is spinning round the sun? The concept of negative proof fails since there are always an infinite amount of alternative possibilites to disprove too. No, the best solution, as used in the scientific method, is to rely on positive proof alone.

I guess what I was asking are what are the certain aspects of the faith that people latch on to. What do you mean by "open", as in it depending on how open people are? Does it mean "willing to accept"? If so, isn't that a dangerous prospect? After all, you could be accpting anything. Being open to other faiths too would only serve to confuse.

RationalAtheist

Doesn't that show your modern revelation was set very much in an 1800s North American view of the world. If God created the world, why pick out one country for special treatment? I can understand the punishment post-death of a vengeful God, but there has been so much vengance against innocents all over the world in this life for a belief in any sort of benevolence from a Heavenly Father when I die. If you have corrupt politicians, you can vote them out. In the UK, we sent 4 MPs to trial last week for fiddling their expenses. We also have a new government after 13 years, so the politicians are still relatively uncorrupted in their roles.

Sure I've tried talking, both aloud and in my head. I can have an open mind and be as honest as I can, but have no idea about "from the heart". What you say about praying fits my understanding exactly. Suppose I chose a different religion, but used the same technique. Do you think I'd believe that one? I also worry that frequent repetition shares similarities to brainwashing. Does praying need to be done with eyes closed and hands clasped? Can't it be a thought?

I don't think I ever did accuse you of saying that. I can see how blessings and healing are a comfort, but then so are many secular practices that comfort the sick. I'm still a bit lost on the Catholic versus the actual priesthood. Why abandon one establishment to replace it with a largely similar one? Is there any other reason, aside from Smith's revelation, as to why priests are better able to serve and reveal to people than they are able to serve themselves?

Stats don't prove things - they provide evidence. Proof is a concept that people apply subjectively, according to their own standards and criteria. You say there is loads of proof that healing works, which would usually need some sort of medical evidence for popular acceptance. Such evidence would be easy to provide if your claim were true, since peoples' health is recorded statistically. Anocdotal evidence is generally suspicious - if you take that into account, we'd have to consider aliens, monsters, ghosts, astrolgy and chiropracters as justified. I would never try and disprove anything. I am sorry if that's what you thought I was doing. I was offering other possible explanations. I personally believe that disproof is a logical fallacy. This means it is not logically possible to disprove anything. For instance, as Bertrand Russell points out, how would you go about disproving that an invisible teapot is spinning round the sun? The concept of negative proof fails since there are always an infinite amount of alternative possibilites to disprove too. No, the best solution, as used in the scientific method, is to rely on positive proof alone.

could be any number of things....my mom is a convert one of her big things the book of mormon's history and explanation of the indians in america. others really see at first and love the families forever thing. others simply get overwhelmed by a testimony from reading the book of mormon. others simply are attracted because logically it makes sense and lacks the inherent plotholes in other religions it really is indivual. and yes im open to other faiths coming to church what kind of person would i be i rejected you based on background? my background aint so hot either and ya know the whole idea is to get to know God yourself since he is your Father in heaven so like your father in real life each of his kids has a different relationship with him. you do have to be open to accepting it though i know it sounds silly and all but its a key you gotta come to church willing to accept it or open to the fact that this could be the truth not assuming ah its just another church it cant do anything for me attitude aka willing to give it a chance. well im not sure voting them out fixes the damage that has been done as instantly as one might hope....and i dont know americans are getting slacker and dumber by the minute it seems some of us are still smart and awake to the problem or perhaps i suppose america must be to brink of falling as ive stated before.tachikoma679

I think I recall the end-times argument has been used since AD began. What I meant about being open to other faiths is the "open-hearted" state you must put yourself into to believe the doctrine of Mormonism without question. If you were in this open-hearted state and approached any other religion or philosophy aside from Mormonism without question, wouldn't you accept that just as openly?

and no proves the opposite it proves God is the same today yesterday and forever by means of modern revelation as despite what other Christian faiths may claim that revelation is dead. that very same book the bible says God is the same today yesterday and forever so why if he is the same would be cease to stop giving revelation forever? maybe stop it briefly but all together abandon it? seems to conflict with his word. and how do you know who is innocent or not? take haiti maybe they were a bunch of drunken whores? and i know new orleans wasnt exactly an innocent city. so im not sure how you can prove these folks are innocent....besides i know no scripture that claims life is fair but rather quite the opposite and the task is to navigate through it and bear said afflictions and still praise God none the less. in fact one outright says unless God does these things people are slow to remeber him so he has to or theyll never look towards to heavens to find him and history is full of proof for this. another saids we get weakness so that he might make it a strength but again he wants us to humble towards him and this apparently the only way for 99% of the population again i ask do you suppose he lets evil people roam and kill us all? why cant bad people be punished? i mean if i had to take a look at the world im going to guess and say its not exactly a holy world and is very much anti God. besides almost all other problems are brought on by your choices and what you chose to do...yes illness are unavoidable but if you are making good choices your whole life then you really shouldnt be afraid to die now should you? if youve been seeking and following God your whole life dieing abrudtly shouldnt worry you near as much now should it? i mean i just cant ever buy into this arguement God doesnt love us because life isnt fair the only way life could be 100% fair is to remove free will and that was SAtans plan and the reason he is him and screwed and doomed to hell but free will is so important God allows Satan to still exist. in other words your not going to get one thing forced onto you so by affect something unfair might happen to you.

tachikoma679

I'm certain there were innocents, by anyone's definition, in Haiti and New Orleans. If you say politicians are corrupt, then why aren't they punished? Why is it that life does not work out like that in reality, time and time again (as we've seen throughout global history)?I totally agree that human choice and responsibility are paramount. Death (and taxes - amirite) are the only certainties in life.

Why did God feel the need to prove to Satan that God could control Job's faith?

praying can be a thought it can be while lieing down it can be while crying it can be while cutting myself and yelling and screaming at God there is no limit or fixed position you must be in to pray in fact ive done all those. just if you can on your knees and with closed eyes and showing some form of reverence is the preference and shows your being humble and submissive to the one who created you. in affect your showing respect for your Father. dont think of it as brainwashing just simply speak to him think of him as real and expect an answer back hes real he exists speak in that mindset. it can be a thought or outloud however think of him as your Father and your having a conversation perhaps a simple starter question of are you real might be a good place to start and go from there again dont expect to get the idea perfect baby steps buddy baby steps crawl first. if you prayed about another religion your answer would no if it came from God....if again while praying ya know God isnt above letting Satan tempt you so you could in fact receieve an answer that is yes....however for all intents and purposes if your truely seeking the maker of the universe and pray about another religion your answer will be no its not the true religion. but say your hoping that im wrong and your heart is against well even if you got the answer im correct would you accept? so you might that answer that im wrong simply because you were hell bent on me being wrong so Satan was allowed to deleiver the answer which is why i stress open mindness open heart no assumptions dont even assume im right, broken spirit truely seeking God. and the answer wont be glaring loud it will be a simple small but noticeable still small voice in your heard and heart...and reading and confirming said book of mormon true would be a similar experience but youll just sort of feel it youll feel something come over you like a burning inside not literally but youll feel something confirm it i guess as the book puts it a burning in your bosum or something like that.

tachikoma679

Why should I be bent on you being wrong? That's not my angle. The way you put it does sound slightly confusing. Now I'm concerned you say that the Devil may be tampering in my prayer attempts, which only serves to discourage me further.

well simple those other priests lost the priesthood its gone they dont have it its not there. when Smith had said revelation it was returned to earth to him. ah i see i gotcha. well if you can find stats on it be my guest they may be out there but i doubt the church ever pushed stats because the idea is dont brag about it and dont go flaunting it either. if a person asks or you just get that feeling to offer a blessing and the person accepts the offer go for it but dont brag about it dont write a book on dont use this to get gain i mean imagine for a moment here....if you had divine authority to act in God's name dont you think we could be trillionaries by now unless of course there was a following string attached of dont brag about it cause isnt greed one of those deadly sins? but ya thats how it works i dont brag about and i dont walk into a cancer hall and say todays your lucky day it doesnt work that way.

tachikoma679

But you were sort of bragging about it here. Objective analysis isn't bragging. Imagine how many more people would come to your faith if there was indisputable scientific evidence that Mormonism cured the sick.

I think many people do claim to act on God's authority and have become rich over it. Doesn't the Mormon Church currently have assets of over $50 billion US?

that said there may be stats on the issue i have no idea if there are they arent endorsed by the church as far as my understanding goes i mean ive been a member all my life and ive never heard of stats on blessings before because i doubt GOd approves and i doubt a stat on how often Gods power works would be needed since priesthood = Gods Power. and why cant all those things exist? ive used chriopractors they rock they fixed my back. and who says the other things can exist....well ill give you monsters if you mean horror movie style but i'd consider a rapist a monster then again ripleys beleive or not makes me wonder seen some freaky people on there lol. that said you say scientic method it eh? well if you truely desire to understand what im saying and want to learn it....well read the book and pray about it those are the only two steps you gotta do then report and go from there. thats it two steps to know whether im a liar or not. 1.read 2.pray 3.repeat till finished reading ok 3 steps there ya go use the scientific method and find out whether i lie or not. again dont assume im right or wrong go in with an open mind and heart just as a scientists should go in assuming nothing about the outcome.tachikoma679

Why not use stats? I remember the stats 3% and 33,000 being used to support Morminsm, so can't see how God disapproves of statisticians. Are you saying the mystery of faith needs to be maintained? Why do the priesthood have more power than you or I?

I'm finding out what other people think here. I don't feel any personal need to become religious, since I feel perfectly content being an atheist. If I were to read the book of Mormon, I wouldn't have your understanding of it, but my own. It would be different to yours, which may in turn be different from other Mormons.

My hands feel better after I crack my knuckles. - perhaps you should do some research on medical evidence supporting chiropody, or any evidence supporting "Ripleys Believe it Or Not"!