The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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dracula_16

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#2 dracula_16
Member since 2005 • 15969 Posts

The quoting system is glitching out on me, So I'll have to use a different method.

"I am Tyler, and I'd like to partake (or lead, if need be) a discussion on Mormonism, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, their beliefs, doctrine, scriptures, history, and their relationship with the other religious groups of the world."

Hello, Tyler. Thank you for coming to our union-- it's good to have you here. I hope you enjoy your time here.

"Without Him our Church would have no reason to exist. It is all about Him, really."

I disagree with that. It's technically about the Father and Jesus (since they're seperate beings in LDS teaching).

"While some would say that we worship a different Jesus than the one in the Holy Bible, I would ask why, then, would we be reading the Holy Bible and canonizing it as one of our Standard Works when we do not profess to believe in the central character of that Bible? The answer would be, of course, that our Book of Mormon teaches a different Jesus. It is still funny how one would claim that we would preach two different and antagonizing Gospels. No, they are the same Gospel. That's why the two books fit well together."

I would agree with the notion that they teach of a different Jesus than the Bible. A church can claim to follow the Bible in it's entirety, but that's an empty claim if the church doesn't follow through with it. The LDS church is guilty of doing that in the way that it distorts salvation by making it work based rather than purely by grace (as Ephesians 2:8-9 declares).

"We believe that Jesus was the firstborn of the Heavenly Father, and chosen by Him to be our Saviour."

That's an unbiblical few, I believe. John 1 makes it clear that he always existed and thus couldn't be the first born.

"These three members of the Godhead are separate in personality and substance, but One in purpose and will. This is how we, at least, explain how the Son is subordinate to the Father, and how the Son could be forsaken by the Father on the cross, and how the Son could pray to the Father. We do not accept the normal reasoning of modern Protestants who essentially say that God forsook Himself, prayed to Himself, and was subordinate to Himself."

That explanation makes more sense than the popular christian tradition that God prayed to himself. Props to the church for that.

"Not only was Christ (or Jehovah, the name we use at times to distinguish Him from the Father, usually before He was born in the flesh) the firstborn of the spiritual children of Heavenly Father, but He is the Only Begotten Son of Heavenly Father in the flesh, and therefore the only One worthy of making the Atonement."

This is one case of deceptive wording that mormon apostles like to use. By "only begotten son in the flesh", they don't mean that they believe that Jesus is the only son of God, but rather, that God had sex with Mary to provide her with Jesus' earthly body. Mormon leaders use the same terminology as christian leaders do, but the mormon definition is almost entirely different.

"We believe that Christ died for our sins, living a perfect life, and was lead as an unblemished lamb to the cross. In this we are certainly no different than our other Christian brothers. Were Christ not to have died for our sins, we would have died in permanent separation from God."

I was under the impression that mormons believe that Jesus paid the atonement when he sweated blood in the garden of Gethsemone-- not when he bled on the cross. That would imply that Jesus bled for people's sin, but didn't die for them. What you said contradicts that, so did the church change it's teaching or something?

"However, He did die. We all agree on that. It is through faith in Him, repentance of our sins, offering a broken heart and contrite spirit to the Lord, baptism by immersion (after an age of accountability, eight years old), and the gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands that we are able to obtain salvation in its highest degree: the celestial kingdom."

Isn't it by repentance and then LDS ordinances that one gets to the highest level of the kingdom (according to the church)? Hence my assertion that one must earn their way into heaven in the other thread.

"It is not works which saves us, but then again, faith doesn't either. It is the grace of God, and those who have faith, and who exercise that faith, will be blessed with the grace of God."

Once again, I would encourage you to read Ephesians 2:8-9. Works have nothing to do with it (in christian doctrine).

"Are we Christians? Of course. Our cornerstone is Christ."

I would say that the cornerstone is man-- not Jesus. Your sig is a fine testament to that.

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GabuEx

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#4 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

I suppose I will paste what I posted in that other thread, as I was actually curious what the answer to it might be:

[QUOTE="Android339"]

I'm not basing my faith on my intellectual beliefs, but I'm saying that's how I approached Mormonism in the first place. I did pray about it, and it was then confirmed unto me that the Church is true.

GabuEx

The thing that my mind has to turn to here is all the other people I've encountered in other religions who also prayed about it, and who also say that it was confirmed unto them that their religion is true.

 

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SimpJee

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#6 SimpJee
Member since 2002 • 18309 Posts

I used to live in Utah for 6 years, so here are some topics I want you to discuss:

Spirit babies (reasons for having so many kids), Polygamy and how it relates to Utah becoming a state and its implications to your religion, thoughts on Blacks and other minorities (of course relating to LDS, not personal feelings), having giant cans of food supplies/water under your houses, levels of heaven and how to get to them.

Think that should be enough info now 

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Gambler_3

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#7 Gambler_3
Member since 2009 • 7736 Posts
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I suppose I will paste what I posted in that other thread, as I was actually curious what the answer to it might be:

[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="Android339"]

I'm not basing my faith on my intellectual beliefs, but I'm saying that's how I approached Mormonism in the first place. I did pray about it, and it was then confirmed unto me that the Church is true.

Android339

The thing that my mind has to turn to here is all the other people I've encountered in other religions who also prayed about it, and who also say that it was confirmed unto them that their religion is true.

 

All I can say that Heavenly Father has revealed His truth to every place on Earth, but in different ways according to His will, their readiness, and what they deserved at the time. I have no qualms with how the Holy Spirit will draw people unto a righteous faith, even if for some reason it's not the fulness of the Gospel at this time.

My friend also prayed and was confirmed the truth of islam by allah(not joking). Allah says there is no such thing as a heavenly father, why exactly would your father be speaking mutually exclusive truths to different people? How can I trust such a liar?

Ever wonder why such things only happen once you "rigorously" pray for it? Do you know how much the brain and it's "expectations" influence our lives? An opimimistic feeling could be the difference between life and death for a sick person. While I do not claim to know all the mysteries of the brain, the fact that we know just how complex the problems are on hand, it is extremely naive and irrational to base your beliefs on your "personal experience" when it could all very well be a hallucination or anything else we dont even have an idea yet.

The very presence of mutually exclusive experiences pretty much removes any doubts that trusting expreiences that cannot be reproduced at will is a highly irrational thing. 

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GabuEx

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#8 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

All I can say that Heavenly Father has revealed His truth to every place on Earth, but in different ways according to His will, their readiness, and what they deserved at the time. I have no qualms with how the Holy Spirit will draw people unto a righteous faith, even if for some reason it's not the fulness of the Gospel at this time.

Android339

But my point is that people who have prayed earnestly have also received answers that they felt were confirmations from God that something was true... yet these were confirmations of things in direct conflict with your beliefs: non-Mormon Christians, Muslims... heck, even members of other non-Abrahamic religions (at least with their versions of prayer).  There was a study a while back where they gathered together both Christians who claimed to be able to commune with God through prayer and Buddhists who claimed to be able to attain nothingness through meditation, and they examined both of their brain activity patterns when they had one of these experiences, and found them to be the exact same.

I suppose what I'm really asking is this: does it not bother you at all that many people throughout the world have reported experiences identical nature to yours, but which confirmed for them ideas that are in direct contradiction to what you believe?

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SimpJee

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#12 SimpJee
Member since 2002 • 18309 Posts
[QUOTE="SimpJee"]

I used to live in Utah for 6 years, so here are some topics I want you to discuss:

Spirit babies (reasons for having so many kids), Polygamy and how it relates to Utah becoming a state and its implications to your religion, thoughts on Blacks and other minorities (of course relating to LDS, not personal feelings), having giant cans of food supplies/water under your houses, levels of heaven and how to get to them.

Think that should be enough info now 

Android339

I have a life.

Oh, thought you were posting on gamespot asking for questions to be asked of you about Mormonism.  My bad....

Here's a good book to read, for all who want to know just how far out Mormonism is.  Funny thing is, it's all straight from their own religious text.

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GabuEx

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#13 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I suppose what I'm really asking is this: does it not bother you at all that many people throughout the world have reported experiences identical nature to yours, but which confirmed for them ideas that are in direct contradiction to what you believe?

Android339

Based on what I have written above, the answer should now be apparent. In any case, the personal subjective experiences of one cannot be experienced by another, and thus hold little weight to everyone aside from the individual who experienced them.

But... wait, I don't understand, are you saying that the people who claim to have prayed earnestly and to have had supernatural revelation actually did have supernatural revelation, despite the fact that the answer revealed to them contradicts something you believe?

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GabuEx

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#16 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts
[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="Android339"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I suppose what I'm really asking is this: does it not bother you at all that many people throughout the world have reported experiences identical nature to yours, but which confirmed for them ideas that are in direct contradiction to what you believe?

Android339

Based on what I have written above, the answer should now be apparent. In any case, the personal subjective experiences of one cannot be experienced by another, and thus hold little weight to everyone aside from the individual who experienced them.

But... wait, I don't understand, are you saying that the people who claim to have prayed earnestly and to have had supernatural revelation actually did have supernatural revelation, despite the fact that the answer revealed to them contradicts something you believe?

Considering what I have written, isn't the answer obvious? You are trying to make this out to be some error on my part, but it makes sense within the context of what I've written.

No, the answer isn't obvious, which is why I asked the question.

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tachikoma679

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#17 tachikoma679
Member since 2010 • 81 Posts
sure me new guy will answer that question and yes i am mormon. that said. i have no doubt someone else can pray about another religion earnestly and have that spirtual experience to them that claims it is true. however if you are going to claim their is a God then you must surely claim their is a devil and it would be foolish to suppose if you have the one true religion as mormons claim they are and i will carry that statement to my grave then why wouldnt Satan be pleased even if not completely but pleased with at least throwing someone off course even if of course is going to another christian church over the mormon one? i'd have to think he would be pleased with doing at least that where his influence can likely be higher at the other church over the true one. see so i have no doubt you can have a spiritual experience and i have no doubt Satan can mask himself to fool you into thinking ah i prayed about it but the mormons they arent correct. and i think this must be considered if you want to ask how another can claim they found the light and contradict our faith. i mean take the people who bombed us on 9-11 i'd have to think they have a spirtual awakening im going to die and get 70 virigins and say GOd said to do it clearly contradicting mormons so i'd have to beleive said spirtual experience is of the evil variety. that said and if you read the book of mormon at all there are countless times it says and Satan has great hold over their hearts and they were blind and couldnt see the truth. the bible says this too but not near as much i beleive. to the other guy.... we have alot of kids because well im not so sure other than the commandment which is also in the bible go forth and multiple. the church is also against birth control....wait its also for waiting for sex till marriage so dont give me the we need birth control arguement. you asked our position this is it and personally i think waiting till marriage is better than 15 year olds with condoms. so i just think it ends up happening that lds families end up being large by nature whether this is just how it ends up happening or whether these families intentially want alot of kids or what im not sure but it seems to be a theme and it probably is result of following the commandments and a side effect of that. and perhaps also our promise of if we follow the commandents and get into the celestial kingdom the highest level we become as the Father become joint heirs with CHirt become Gods and rule over our posterity for all time and eternity. future posterity of course the endless spirit children we will have at that point so i think it is just a general commandment that if your following Chist he blesses you with children and considers it a great blessing to let you have children as it is described that Gods greatest power is the gift of life so we are in effect by having kids mimicing Gods greastest power the gift of life. polygamy yes we followed it for a while but it became illegal and so we stopped it. it was largely due to widows and such be created by the massive trek outwest which was largely brought on because of the US government creating an extermination order on all mormons so we have to run for the hills or rather out west alot of us died and had alot of widows. of course in order to get a second wife the first wife had to approve of each extra wife. so this wasnt a horny men banging 10 hot young girls this was more of well here ill help take care of my fellow mans family kind of deal. however this became illegal so we beleive in following the law of the land and abandoned it. the same scripture that okayed polygamy also put it like this or close to this: "I am Chirst and my word is law so if i say it is law and i say do this then it is law so it is with this polygamy i have said to do it so it is now law but now i say to stop doing it so that is now law" i cant say thats the exact qoute but is is something to that effect it is in D and C 128 somewhere in there i think is the polygamy scripture. blacks we beleive what the bible teaches really. cain killed abel and was given a cursed skin for it dark skin this where blacks came from. the bible says it the book of mormon says it the only difference is we beleive it. we beleive they have equal chance to get into heaven but are more direct descendents of cain who made a deal with Satan so as such that explains there role in life. why africa is aids ridden is result of this bloodline which is a result of their pre life they werent exactly the most spiritual and righteousess people then so they suffer for it now as well. granted other races are just as guilty as crimes but just saying this is why third world countries are likely to be the way they are and why they are colored people there. basically in your prelife you were how you are now which is how you will be in the after life. if you were good in the prelife you are blessed for it with a better chance in the mortal world earth which means you are more likely to reap the rewards of the afterlife. if your bad in the prelife for example cain probably wasnt a good boy in the prelife....so he got punished for it here and was as such more likely to make a deal with Satan because he wasnt exactly mr God follower but apparently didnt screw up enough to get banished with Satan until after he lived here. now why it took till the 70s i think for blacks to hold the priesthood im not sure....but then again they didnt have luther king do his magic till the 60s so im guessing they just stuck with it and when blacks were finnalyl given free rights we decided to let them have free rights here too. also keep in mind if i had to guess we had only 60 years ago or so finnally gotten the government to get off our backs with polygamny and chasing us outwest and trying to kill us....so ya know i think it would be suicide to try and allow blacks full membership i think the church was probably just trying to stay alive and avoid further death orders but again this is my theory as to why it too so long to equalize blacks so dont quote me on it. however due to all that minorities probably have to try harder to make the gospel stick in their lives because they didnt do it too well in the pre life because we also beleive and have scriptures saying we used the pre life to prepare for the life now which is used to prepare for the afterlife our final destination. so if you dont make as much progress in the prelife you have to make up that plus the regular trials of life to get there. food supply simple...the world is going to hell and back end of days stuff we beleive in having enough food to live off of for a year plain and simple. levels of the after life.... hell or outer darkness as we call it. you get here by really by two ways. a deal with Satan or denying the Holy Ghost after for a fact knowing you received a witness of the Holy Ghost and you still chose to voluntarly deny him and chose Satan. you do something along these lines and you will in fact earn yourself a spot in outer darkness. this is the unpardonable sin you do it your screwed. telestial and terrestial i get confused which is which but one of them is the next one up and the other above that so ill just say the telestial is the next one above hell. telestial is the lowest kingdom of glory as outer darkness has no glory to it. telestial if you love to lie you commit sexual sin or commit the unforgiveable sin of murder...no self defense doesnt count and soliders arent held to the same standard when in war because God doesnt beleive to roll over and take it when you gotta fight you gotta fight. all those that love to land here. murders and sexual sinners land here. its pretty easy to get here in an age of porn sadly terrestial...good an honorable people. but are fooled by the crafitness of men get here. these people are honest and good folks by most standards but maybe didnt goto church maybe couldnt put the beer down or maybe beleive in Christ but not his restored church aka the mormons. celestial has three degrees the bottom two no idea what order those are in but are this. to become angels to a God one is to our God now and one is to other Gods that passed this trial of life and became Gods. these folks followed the plan 97% of the way probably but just had a couple of set backs maybe no temple marriage maybe they could go a mission but didnt something kind of small but screwed up just enough to avoid Godhood. the top kingdom the grand prize of the celestial kingdom Godhood to become well like God. "to have all that the Father has" this requires perfect obedience to all commandments now yes we will sin so we cant be perfect without repentence but overall if God says do it you do it you hit the ball everytime you did your best you embraced the scriptures with all your heart and soul. you were of the few "and few there be that find it for straight and narrow is the path but wide and large is the path to destruction and many there be that find it" in this level you are like Christ you are like Heavenly Father if you speak the world obeys you will eternally preside over your own worlds and in heaven forever and ever you will become a God you and your spouse a male and a female sorry no gays will preside eternally over your own kingdoms in heaven as Gods. kids under the age of 8....well they cant sin so they get a free ride into the celestial kingdom but not Godhood they still must earn that marking further Godhood must be tough to get since you have to imagine some of those kids wont get it. if you die without having a chance to hear of the gospel whether this conversation here counts or not dont ask me God will decide that lol. those folks get a chance to hear of the gospel accept it reject and land in the various spots of the after life so everyone before they are judged with hear of the gospel and get a chance to prove themselves worthy of Godhood or not. concerning something else posted...yea Christ was born but he is eternal. our scriptures have a quote something to the effect of when you die you will see all things are merely matter more refined or less refined in otherwords you always existed in some form or another just finnally God came along and gave you life but you always existed in some for or another and as such are eternal. so apprently science has this part right matter can neither be created nor destroyed. so everything has always been and always will be and just has been refined or unrefined over the ages to create the universe.
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domatron23

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#19 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts

Hey Tachikoma679, I never imagined that the Atheism Union would have two Mormons posting at the same time. Nice to have you here to pick up the slack for android who is and always has been swamped by opponents.

You've got the order of the kingdoms right btw. It goes Celestial, terrestrial and then telestial. Hopefully I'm a shoo in for the terrestrial kingdom upon my death.

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RationalAtheist

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#21 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

I've a question:

Why believe in Mormonism and not Catholicism, or Protestantism?

What is the intellectual reasoning?

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RationalAtheist

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#23 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I've a question:

Why believe in Mormonism and not Catholicism, or Protestantism?

What is the intellectual reasoning?

Android339

There are many things you can reference when answering that question. Entire books can be written on the subject, which shouldn't be surprising. Yet here is my relatively short answer: Catholicism is based off the false premise that the authority of the Church survived the death of the apostles. Protestantism cannot lead to the answer because there are 33, 000 distinct denominations of Protestantism, all quarreling, and they are all based on differeing men's differing interpretations of the Bible, of which there are many varieties.

I'd be interested to know what you mean by "the authority of the church survived the death of the apostles". I'm totally unclear on this.

There are multiple branches of Mormonism too, having the same sort of quarrels as Protestant faiths, aren't there? Could you be more accurate on the main distinctions in the Protestant faith that dilute them to you?

Isn't Mormonism based on yet another group of mens' interpretation of the bible?

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Gambler_3

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#25 Gambler_3
Member since 2009 • 7736 Posts

Many experiences cannot be reproduced at will. For instance, I cannot make the experience of my high school graduation occur once again, so am I to assume that it never happened? 

Android339

You can refer back to some photos of it? Or you could ask the people who were there at that time if it actually happened or not.

It is a non-repeatable experience but a verifiable one. You can also see that high school graduation happens with others as well all the time and you can "see" it.

But the most important thing here is and you really need to get this for any furthur analogies that you are gonna come up with. IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU "BELIEVE" IN THAT EVENT HAVING ACTUALLY HAPPENED OR NOT, you have your certificates which is all that matters.

Whereas treating a religious experience as a supernatural one is something that changes your life big time. Always think about the practicality of the 2 things that you compare...

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RationalAtheist

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#27 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
The authority and keys of the priesthood, and the keys first given in the New Testament to Peter.

Android339

That does not sound like something I could understand. Are you suggesting I do some background reading on Mormonism first? I thought this thread was a place we could get our questions answered.

There are not nearly as many branches. There's only one major one, and the closest one to is is the RLDS Church, which hasn't gathered much of a following. And do you really need me to spell out to you the distinctions? There are several areas of doctrine that can be disputed by different interpreters of the Bible. The number, 33, 000, is given by the World Christian Encyclopedia, or whatever it's called.

Android339

Yes, I am really asking why you chose Mormonism, rather than Protestantism as your faith. I thought I could ask such things here. I would like to know the main areas of disagreement.

I also thought that the Protestant faith was fairly unified and large groups of Protestant churches are able to represent themselves wholistically - at least to a certain degree. Whereas some branches of Mormonism completely deny that other parallel belief systems exist.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Isn't Mormonism based on yet another group of mens' interpretation of the bible?

Android339

No, it's based moreso on the Book of Mormon and modern revelation.

Doesn't it include the bible? Your first answer suggested the bible (or one of its interpretations) does come into it somewhere.

The "Book of Mormon" and modern revelation - Does that include the transcribed "reformed Egyptian" from golden plates?

Book of Mormon

What is so believable about Joseph Smith's claims?

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GabuEx

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#28 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

The answer, then, is that while it doesn't necessarily have to be supernatural revelation (hallucinations do happen), or if it is, supernatural revelation from Heavenly Father, there is nothing within LDS doctrine that says that there's no way that it can be supernatural revelation. Although revelation for matters of the Church is given to those in authority over the Church, across the levels.

Android339

...No offense, but this seems to be entirely sidestepping the question.

You seem to be allowing the possibility that it can be supernatural revelation, but if what you believe is true, then how could supernatural revelation contradict it?  Is God an author of confusion?

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RationalAtheist

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#31 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

That does not sound like something I could understand. Are you suggesting I do some background reading on Mormonism first? I thought this thread was a place we could get our questions answered.

Android339

Did I say that? If you want to know something, then ask about it. Even if you don't understand it when I answer it, I'm sure you have the intelligence to look up the terms for yourself. In any case, imagine being in a thread of fundamentalist Christians where they ask you to explain every point of your beliefs to the smallest detail, such as beliefs in evolution, or your political beliefs. It's annoying, and I have a life.

In a way, you did seem to say that I should do some research, as what you wrote was not comprehensible in any meaningful way to me.

I'm entirely unsure why you created a thread here. I thought the pretext was a discussion on Mormonism. I'm entirely prepared to discuss my beliefs here. If that annoys you then this place is not the best place for you.

[[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Yes, I am really asking why you chose Mormonism, rather than Protestantism as your faith. I thought I could ask such things here. I would like to know the main areas of disagreement.

Android339

And I'm answering such questions, but the points of doctrine that many Protestant Churches disagree on should be fairly obvious. Obvious enough to be shocked that you don't know such things already. I thought someone as 'rational' as you would know at least a little something about the various beliefs of Protestants. Such as disagreements on the nature of the Trinity, faith, works, tithing, baptism, and whatnot.

I thought most Protestants were fairly tight on all of that stuff. How does the Mormon religion differ - in your eyes?

Why pre-suppose (once again) what I know? Rationalism is only a method, so does not indicate levels of knowledge to me. I believe that knowledge itself is transient, so can not establish any position of knowledge on most anything, myself.

[

Then I suppose you thought wrong, because the Protestant faith is not fairly unified at all. And I'm not sure what you mean by "some branches of Mormonism completely deny that other parallel belief systems exist." Are you suggesting we don't recognize the existence of branches like the RLDS Church? Because that's silly. In any case, you could number the branches of Mormonism with both hands, if you even need that.

Android339

There are such organisations as the World Council of Churches", the "Conference of European Churches" that do show some unity between Christian Protestant organisations.

I was referring to an earlier conversation I remember with you where you dismissed LDS polygomists as "not being Mormon".

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Doesn't it include the bible? Your first answer suggested the bible (or one of its interpretations) does come into it somewhere.

Android339

It does, but it's not based on it. Not more than the Book of Mormon and modern revelation.

The "Book of Mormon" and modern revelation - Does that include the transcribed "reformed Egyptian" from golden plates?

RationalAtheist

Sure does.

What is so believable about Joseph Smith's claims?

RationalAtheist

That's a matter of personal opinion, isn't it?

I guess so, but the opinion should be a considered one, shouldn't it? I was wondering where the intellectual argument was.

My problem is with the Mormon ministerial "revelations" and the convenient times that they are revealed. Wasn't there one in 1978 that allowed black people to become Mormon ministers?

Is there any use in applying any textual criticism to to the "revised Egyptian" texts used for the Book of Mormon?

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#32 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

I don't see how it is... Supernatural revelation can contradict it because Heavenly Father revealed the Gospel to various societies according to His will, their readiness, and what they deserve.

Android339

Yes, but I'm talking about right now; there are people alive right now who have prayed and have received what they believe to be supernatural revelation that is in contradiction with what you believe. 

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#33 tachikoma679
Member since 2010 • 81 Posts
ya its weird i saw a link to this is GS off topic not sure why i felt compelled to click on it and low and behold a saw a thread on my religion and had to post lol. sorry my quotes may be misquotes and may not be from the right person i didnt feel like editing this 400 times and i dont know the quote code off hand so i copy and pasted one quote and just used that over and over regardless of who said the actual question. im a little lazy yes but for some reason gamespot lacks the bold and italics options or do i need more posts to get them? so with that i was just trying to seperate questions regardless of who said so forgive me for misquotes. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I thought most Protestants were fairly tight on all of that stuff. How does the Mormon religion differ - in your eyes? Why pre-suppose (once again) what I know? Rationalism is only a method, so does not indicate levels of knowledge to me. I believe that knowledge itself is transient, so can not establish any position of knowledge on most anything, myself.

this i think the difference between mormon and prostetant is quite simple. in the mormon church say sunday school lesson here at my mormon church is lesson 12 in the book guess what? through out all the world in any mormon church youll hear lesson 12....any other religion and youll get whatever the pastor wants. there seems to be far more unity in the mormon church because of this and its a big difference in mormons vs all other relions and sticks more to the God is a God of order so it makes sense all his churches would have the same sunday lesson as far as the other mormon churches out there the FLDS and RLDS and whatever they stopped following the head of the church. after joseph smith died The Lord picked his new prophet brigam young the other sects disagree with this....following the other sects youll notices theyve mostly abandoned the original principles smith gave where as young stuck to them. they even cling to polygamny some of them do which is illegal and we in the mormon church beleive to follow the law of the land so again they arent mormon they are broken off versions of the church that dont even follow the church's teachings but sadly most seem to think they are the real mormons so alot of rumours spread from this. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I've a question:

My problem is with the Mormon ministerial "revelations" and the convenient times that they are revealed. Wasn't there one in 1978 that allowed black people to become Mormon ministers? Is there any use in applying any textual criticism to to the "revised Egyptian" texts used for the Book of Mormon?

not sure what criticism those egyptian texts offer on the book of mormon they seem to go hand and hand mostly or at least dont conflict with it. the black 1978 thing i answered my opinion on that in my other post....so not reposting it aside from that i havent a clue on why that was what the deal with it was jsut my opinion which i already posted you like me would have to google that perhaps the other guy knows

I've a question:

Why believe in Mormonism and not Catholicism, or Protestantism?

What is the intellectual reasoning?

RationalAtheist
why are smiths claims so beleivable you ask?....honestly its a little different for each person me personally i meet the qualifications if i ever turned on the church that i could land in outer darkness so i clearly will defend the church to my grave because i know beyond all doubt the church is true. call me a liar if you wish but i know beyond any doubt this is the restored church of olden times GOds church. that said....honestly the offer is given the challenge is given in the book of mormon...it says clearly towards the end of if that all those would read with real intent and sincere and broken heart and contrite spirit and pray to the Father in the name of the Son to ask whether this is true or not they will get there answer...honestly unless you do that youll never get your answer and will always wonder thats really the only way for you to find out say i parted the red seas....wow and cool right? guess what israel still after that wandered for 40 years in the wildnerness in unbeleif....which is why you need a witness from the Holy Ghost which is what you if you do what i just said to do. its also why denying the Holy Ghost lands you in hell but deny Christ does not. granted ive had a bit more than simply reading the book and receiving a witness that way to a point that i cant deny it. but that is teh gateway the doorway to knowing whether it is true or not...there is really no other way buy by prayer sincere honest prayer. this also largely explains convient revelation. because if u need help and your faithful guess what you get divine guidance which you often need when you in a tight spot theres no mystery or magic to it. of course why smith is so beleivable is why ive chosen to be a mormon. yes i was born into the church but when i was 18 or 19 i decided to reset on my life and stopped going to church for a while. a good few years really i eventually found my way back partly because well even then i knew beyond a doubt the church was in fact true. in fact im wrong record writing in my online journal from back then defending the church while not attending it. in fact they wanted to get my family to get a talk one time during those years because thats how we roll families give talks during sacrament not a pastor. they asked our family decided what the hell to see if i would do it. i went on record there claiming the church was true. so for me thats it ive prayed and seen divine guidances i know beyond all doubt its true. really unless you read a book of mormon and pray on the door to answer to this question will forever be shut to all who ask it. in fact one of the witnesses to the book of mormon being revealed got excommunicated for some reason or another but when asked to join one of the FLDS churches to lead it he said no you lost the priesthood your not the true church. and another running for a government position they brought up you used to be a member of the church and he even while excommunicated bore a testimony of the church being true....so ya know theres sometghing toe be said about people who have been thrown out but still carried that testimony with them. i mean im 25 and i decided to finnally go on a mission to become a missionary a tad bit late but just enough time im leaving in a few months. honestly i dont mind some of the questions cause God knows ill hear them while im out. but i agree with TC....lets not cherry pick stuff and lets not ask the most insane details about the tiniest thing and ill be honest i cant tell you the details about everything. but just be honest and open about it and dont expect us to give every answer cause we dont have them. and dont take one scripture and turn it upside down for everything. to be fair you dont take 5 sentences make it slap a meaning on a whole book so dont do it with the bible or book of mormon either. i think TC is prolly frustrated cause mormons get an unfair amount of crap over stupidity or rumours i think that is TC's frustration triying to handle that and i can understand it. but not going to lie the best way to receive answers is to read the book of mormon and attend a church meeting or two and speak with actual missionaries. though well try and answer stuff.

I've a question:

concerning the priesthood....

RationalAtheist
answering that question on the priesthood. priesthood is God's power the power to act in his name through the name of Son. the catholic church lost this when the apostles died because they fell off track became wicked so this power was lost from the earth at least that hemisphere. this lead to the dark ages. this priesthood died with peter and the other apostles. hence for Gods church to reighn again on earth that had to be restored. so God sent those apostles back to earth to restore it to smith . that said its impossible to claim to be the leader of the church like the pope does or any other church without this restored power. yes that does in a way say because i hold the priesthood i can act in Gods name and move a mountain ya if i have enough faith and there is a rightoueness reason to move that mountain. typically mountains arent moved anymore but its normally used to bless the sick and perform church ordaniances. like sacrament and ordaining people to being bishops or giving worthy men the priesthood etc. its hard to grasp totally as an outsider not going to lie. and that is part of why i know beyond all doubt its true ive seen these priesthood blessings work like magic honestly. heck one time my dad asked for a blessing from me because you cant do it to yourself or well if you have another who can give you one instead do that. but he asked because he was going to court for something and part of what i was inspired to say was the other lawyer will be confounded in speech....the other lawyers opening statements this being a really good lawyer in town his opening statements consisted of stuttering and calling my dad a liar outright saying "your a liar" sounds like an amatuer lawyer to me not a best in town lawyer. i can give countless examples but i guess ill give one more. one sunday the power went out i cant really say why we stayed but we did we had sacrament but realized our bread was in the freezer and frozen still solid as rock...well within the 10 minutes it took us to set up sacrament to be passed as we went to bless it the bread went from its solid as a rock to eadiable thats two examples i shall stop there for the sake of my injured right arm cant take typing anymore.
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#34 tachikoma679
Member since 2010 • 81 Posts
[QUOTE="Android339"]

I don't see how it is... Supernatural revelation can contradict it because Heavenly Father revealed the Gospel to various societies according to His will, their readiness, and what they deserve.

GabuEx

Yes, but I'm talking about right now; there are people alive right now who have prayed and have received what they believe to be supernatural revelation that is in contradiction with what you believe. 

unless you want his answer only i answered this in my first post that said. i have no doubt someone else can pray about another religion earnestly and have that spirtual experience to them that claims it is true. however if you are going to claim their is a God then you must surely claim their is a devil and it would be foolish to suppose if you have the one true religion as mormons claim they are and i will carry that statement to my grave then why wouldnt Satan be pleased even if not completely but pleased with at least throwing someone off course even if of course is going to another christian church over the mormon one? i'd have to think he would be pleased with doing at least that where his influence can likely be higher at the other church over the true one. see so i have no doubt you can have a spiritual experience and i have no doubt Satan can mask himself to fool you into thinking ah i prayed about it but the mormons they arent correct. and i think this must be considered if you want to ask how another can claim they found the light and contradict our faith. i mean take the people who bombed us on 9-11 i'd have to think they have a spirtual awakening im going to die and get 70 virigins and say GOd said to do it clearly contradicting mormons so i'd have to beleive said spirtual experience is of the evil variety. that said and if you read the book of mormon at all there are countless times it says and Satan has great hold over their hearts and they were blind and couldnt see the truth. the bible says this too but not near as much i beleive i cant explain TC's view though which i agree seems contradictory.
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#35 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

that said. i have no doubt someone else can pray about another religion earnestly and have that spirtual experience to them that claims it is true. however if you are going to claim their is a God then you must surely claim their is a devil and it would be foolish to suppose if you have the one true religion as mormons claim they are and i will carry that statement to my grave then why wouldnt Satan be pleased even if not completely but pleased with at least throwing someone off course even if of course is going to another christian church over the mormon one? i'd have to think he would be pleased with doing at least that where his influence can likely be higher at the other church over the true one.tachikoma679

If there is no difference between their experience and your experience, then how exactly can you be confident that your revelation was from God and that theirs was from Satan?  I have had Christians who had no bones about telling me that what I believed to be a message from God was in fact from Satan, and of course the reason why they believed this was because the contents of this message were in conflict with what they believed.

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#36 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

ya its weird i saw a link to this is GS off topic not sure why i felt compelled to click on it and low and behold a saw a thread on my religion and had to post lol. sorry my quotes may be misquotes and may not be from the right person i didnt feel like editing this 400 times and i dont know the quote code off hand so i copy and pasted one quote and just used that over and over regardless of who said the actual question. im a little lazy yes but for some reason gamespot lacks the bold and italics options or do i need more posts to get them? so with that i was just trying to seperate questions regardless of who said so forgive me for misquotes.

tachikoma679

Thanks for taking the time to answer so honestly.

this i think the difference between mormon and prostetant is quite simple. in the mormon church say sunday school lesson here at my mormon church is lesson 12 in the book guess what? through out all the world in any mormon church youll hear lesson 12....any other religion and youll get whatever the pastor wants. there seems to be far more unity in the mormon church because of this and its a big difference in mormons vs all other relions and sticks more to the God is a God of order so it makes sense all his churches would have the same sunday lesson as far as the other mormon churches out there the FLDS and RLDS and whatever they stopped following the head of the church. after joseph smith died The Lord picked his new prophet brigam young the other sects disagree with this....following the other sects youll notices theyve mostly abandoned the original principles smith gave where as young stuck to them. they even cling to polygamny some of them do which is illegal and we in the mormon church beleive to follow the law of the land so again they arent mormon they are broken off versions of the church that dont even follow the church's teachings but sadly most seem to think they are the real mormons so alot of rumours spread from this. tachikoma679

Aside from the strict timetable, is there anything else? Don't pastors have any scope to talk around what is in lesson 12?

Suppose the laws of the land change to conflict with the Mormon faith? Would that necessarily involve another revelation?

not sure what criticism those egyptian texts offer on the book of mormon they seem to go hand and hand mostly or at least dont conflict with it. the black 1978 thing i answered my opinion on that in my other post....so not reposting it aside from that i havent a clue on why that was what the deal with it was jsut my opinion which i already posted you like me would have to google that perhaps the other guy knows tachikoma679

I thought some opinion within the church was that the gold plates had been purchased by Smith and/or bore no textual relation to the Book of Abraham. I thought a valid opinion was that the translation method was divine, rather than textual, which places no actual significance with the contents of the gold pages (believed by some to be an Egyptian book of the dead). It also gets Smith off the hook rather, over the "reformed Egyptian" translation.

I was referring to textual criticism in its application to the understanding and meaning of religious texts.

why are smiths claims so beleivable you ask?....honestly its a little different for each person me personally i meet the qualifications if i ever turned on the church that i could land in outer darkness so i clearly will defend the church to my grave because i know beyond all doubt the church is true. call me a liar if you wish but i know beyond any doubt this is the restored church of olden times GOds church. that said....honestly the offer is given the challenge is given in the book of mormon...it says clearly towards the end of if that all those would read with real intent and sincere and broken heart and contrite spirit and pray to the Father in the name of the Son to ask whether this is true or not they will get there answer...honestly unless you do that youll never get your answer and will always wonder thats really the only way for you to find out say i parted the red seas....wow and cool right? guess what israel still after that wandered for 40 years in the wildnerness in unbeleif....which is why you need a witness from the Holy Ghost which is what you if you do what i just said to do. its also why denying the Holy Ghost lands you in hell but deny Christ does not. granted ive had a bit more than simply reading the book and receiving a witness that way to a point that i cant deny it. but that is teh gateway the doorway to knowing whether it is true or not...there is really no other way buy by prayer sincere honest prayer. this also largely explains convient revelation. because if u need help and your faithful guess what you get divine guidance which you often need when you in a tight spot theres no mystery or magic to it. of course why smith is so beleivable is why ive chosen to be a mormon. yes i was born into the church but when i was 18 or 19 i decided to reset on my life and stopped going to church for a while. a good few years really i eventually found my way back partly because well even then i knew beyond a doubt the church was in fact true. in fact im wrong record writing in my online journal from back then defending the church while not attending it. in fact they wanted to get my family to get a talk one time during those years because thats how we roll families give talks during sacrament not a pastor. they asked our family decided what the hell to see if i would do it. i went on record there claiming the church was true. so for me thats it ive prayed and seen divine guidances i know beyond all doubt its true. really unless you read a book of mormon and pray on the door to answer to this question will forever be shut to all who ask it. in fact one of the witnesses to the book of mormon being revealed got excommunicated for some reason or another but when asked to join one of the FLDS churches to lead it he said no you lost the priesthood your not the true church. and another running for a government position they brought up you used to be a member of the church and he even while excommunicated bore a testimony of the church being true....so ya know theres sometghing toe be said about people who have been thrown out but still carried that testimony with them. i mean im 25 and i decided to finnally go on a mission to become a missionary a tad bit late but just enough time im leaving in a few months. tachikoma679

It seems like there's much personal experience, prayer, sacrament and faith involved there. Good luck on your impending missionary activities.

honestly i dont mind some of the questions cause God knows ill hear them while im out. but i agree with TC....lets not cherry pick stuff and lets not ask the most insane details about the tiniest thing and ill be honest i cant tell you the details about everything. but just be honest and open about it and dont expect us to give every answer cause we dont have them. and dont take one scripture and turn it upside down for everything. to be fair you dont take 5 sentences make it slap a meaning on a whole book so dont do it with the bible or book of mormon either. i think TC is prolly frustrated cause mormons get an unfair amount of crap over stupidity or rumours i think that is TC's frustration triying to handle that and i can understand it. but not going to lie the best way to receive answers is to read the book of mormon and attend a church meeting or two and speak with actual missionaries. though well try and answer stuff. tachikoma679

I'll try not to cherry-pick or be a detail-freak. I can see your openness in your response. I hope we can have a meaningful discussion.

answering that question on the priesthood. priesthood is God's power the power to act in his name through the name of Son. the catholic church lost this when the apostles died because they fell off track became wicked so this power was lost from the earth at least that hemisphere. this lead to the dark ages. this priesthood died with peter and the other apostles. hence for Gods church to reighn again on earth that had to be restored. so God sent those apostles back to earth to restore it to smith . that said its impossible to claim to be the leader of the church like the pope does or any other church without this restored power. yes that does in a way say because i hold the priesthood i can act in Gods name and move a mountain ya if i have enough faith and there is a righteousness reason to move that mountain. typically mountains arent moved anymore but its normally used to bless the sick and perform church ordaniances. like sacrament and ordaining people to being bishops or giving worthy men the priesthood etc. its hard to grasp totally as an outsider not going to lie. and that is part of why i know beyond all doubt its true ive seen these priesthood blessings work like magic honestly.

tachikoma679

The power of the priests, is rejected by Smith (so I understand from what you say) and placed in the hands of all believers, as in Protestantism. This rejection of church authority is a reason for some splits in the Mormon faith, since some sects have retained un-modified principles, or rejected Bingham. Why is human revelation more important than divinely inspired scripture?

heck one time my dad asked for a blessing from me because you cant do it to yourself or well if you have another who can give you one instead do that. but he asked because he was going to court for something and part of what i was inspired to say was the other lawyer will be confounded in speech....the other lawyers opening statements this being a really good lawyer in town his opening statements consisted of stuttering and calling my dad a liar outright saying "your a liar" sounds like an amatuer lawyer to me not a best in town lawyer.

i can give countless examples but i guess ill give one more. one sunday the power went out i cant really say why we stayed but we did we had sacrament but realized our bread was in the freezer and frozen still solid as rock...well within the 10 minutes it took us to set up sacrament to be passed as we went to bless it the bread went from its solid as a rock to eadiable thats two examples i shall stop there for the sake of my injured right arm cant take typing anymore.tachikoma679

I could give countless examples of incidences like that one I had too. I recognise my own human failings that are an inability to evaluate probability and randomness properly, over-reliance on positive evidence, my bias to my own current mind-set, the social pressure to conform to a view, and the relative cognitive impact of the incident. I recognise the possibility of alternative more rational explanations as being just as valid for those experiences.

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#37 tachikoma679
Member since 2010 • 81 Posts

[QUOTE="tachikoma679"]that said. i have no doubt someone else can pray about another religion earnestly and have that spirtual experience to them that claims it is true. however if you are going to claim their is a God then you must surely claim their is a devil and it would be foolish to suppose if you have the one true religion as mormons claim they are and i will carry that statement to my grave then why wouldnt Satan be pleased even if not completely but pleased with at least throwing someone off course even if of course is going to another christian church over the mormon one? i'd have to think he would be pleased with doing at least that where his influence can likely be higher at the other church over the true one.GabuEx

If there is no difference between their experience and your experience, then how exactly can you be confident that your revelation was from God and that theirs was from Satan?  I have had Christians who had no bones about telling me that what I believed to be a message from God was in fact from Satan, and of course the reason why they believed this was because the contents of this message were in conflict with what they believed.

well i would say you speak as if you have encountered satan? if so i would say you beleive in God because logic dictitates if Satan is real so is God all things must have their opposite. do tell me more i'd be curious to hear it. if we had the same experience we must come to same the conclusion. whether we chose to beleive it or not or how we act on it is up to us but the fact still remains for example. if we are both shown 2+2 = 4 so we both see it and reach the same conclusion and had the same experience and where shown by the same teacher we both possess the same facts of what just happened however i can go out and say the teacher lied and you can go out and tell the truth....however we both know the truth im just chosing to lie about it? see if we both experienced the same thing which in this case is what i experienced and ive come to conclusion God is real and the LDS church is his church we would both possess the knowledge that made me come to that conclusion....whether you chose to embrace and preach it or hide and ignore it is up to you.
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#38 tachikoma679
Member since 2010 • 81 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] Thanks for taking the time to answer so honestly.

chya [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] Aside from the strict timetable, is there anything else? Don't pastors have any scope to talk around what is in lesson 12? Suppose the laws of the land change to conflict with the Mormon faith? Would that necessarily involve another revelation?

uhm i mean the church is set into 3 hours. sacrament/priesthood-relief society/sunday school. sacrament is bread and water and whoever the bishop picked to speak the first sunday is fast and testimony sunday so anybody can walk up to the microphone and speak for however long till the hour is up. the other two are lessons laid out by the head of the church that they have to kind of stick to. theres usually a lesson book they are teaching out of it and try and base it off of that dont its not entirely uncommon to get off on exploring what exactly something means but it is just simply based on that lesson its very much a open discussion but then again you might get a teacher that goes straight by the book you never really know. our beleif is the church should follow the laws of the land and we do in fact prop 8 was a weird thing because it was the first time the church spoke out politically. that said our prophecy for the end days is clear something to the effect of....and america wil fall from within and be hanging by a thread and at that moment the elders of the church will step in and save america. so im sure at some point we are going to start going against the laws of the land....but then again has the us government really been obeying the supreme law of the land the consitution lately? so would we really be violating that law by disobeying our corrupt government? even still God does on occassion authorize war. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] I thought some opinion within the church was that the gold plates had been purchased by Smith and/or bore no textual relation to the Book of Abraham. I thought a valid opinion was that the translation method was divine, rather than textual, which places no actual significance with the contents of the gold pages (believed by some to be an Egyptian book of the dead). It also gets Smith off the hook rather, over the "reformed Egyptian" translation. I was referring to textual criticism in its application to the understanding and meaning of religious texts.

im not sure on the whole history of those egpytian plates honestly. whether they were translated or not or bought or what im not sure. i have read them as they are part of our scriptures....they dontconflict with anything in the other scriptures though. how they came about ive never really looked much into myself. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] It seems like there's much personal experience, prayer, sacrament and faith involved there. Good luck on your impending missionary activities.

in reality which is what i was saying the only way to understand my knowledge of GOd truely is to seek him out the way i said too otherwise youll forever never completely get what im saying and testimonys like that i imagine lose a little bunch over the internet. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] I'll try not to cherry-pick or be a detail-freak. I can see your openness in your response. I hope we can have a meaningful discussion.

indeed [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] The power of the priests, is rejected by Smith (so I understand from what you say) and placed in the hands of all believers, as in Protestantism. This rejection of church authority is a reason for some splits in the Mormon faith, since some sects have retained un-modified principles, or rejected Bingham. Why is human revelation more important than divinely inspired scripture?

but thats just it the broken sects dont follow the book of mormon nor do they follow Doctrine and covenants because they cant because by splitting with the new head of the church young they lost the priesthood which is essential to following the details of the scriptures so they cant follow them its impossible so in reality our current divine inspirations are still well in line with unmodified scripture. and yes we do place alot of it in the hands of its members however there is only one at a time who speaks for the whole of the church. human revelation was critical and still is because that is the means by which we are guided and maintain being the true church it is the means by which young was picked to succeed smith. human revelation can also be a little more specific for the current question at hand as well thats the point to constantly seek out and ask God and get to know him and seek his guidance in day to day issues otherwise u ahve to admit it would stink to get a giant book and say read this and see me in 80 years when u die divine scripture is also at its core human revelation nothing more than that so they are really the same thing in actuality. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"] I could give countless examples of incidences like that one I had too. I recognise my own human failings that are an inability to evaluate probability and randomness properly, over-reliance on positive evidence, my bias to my own current mind-set, the social pressure to conform to a view, and the relative cognitive impact of the incident. I recognise the possibility of alternative more rational explanations as being just as valid for those experiences.

yes there can be alot of how did that happen experiences....however theres only so much of that i can leave to that and not call divine help too much is circumstancely too much is miracle like and quite frankly ive got a load of those priesthood blessing working like magic stories over the years theres only so much i can call coincidence. again ive seen and been through entirely too much to ignore once again i am one of those souls walking this earth that indeed if i turned my back i meet said qualifications for outer darkness and i dont say that lightly either...you really got get knocked across to head to get into that category and have some wow moments. but again scriptures are full of folks with wow moments that still openly rebelled so they dont always do any good sadly. then i suppose ill ask you this those experiences if not divinely done then how did they occur?
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#41 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

Simply apply what I had written about societies, to people. Heavenly Father, I'm sure, would rather there be a just and righteous Muslim than one who shuns a moral code altogether. There is also the sense that God has, at times, sent people a strong delusion, according to what they've desired, because it is what they've desired.

Android339

So... you're basically saying that God effectively lies to people either because that's what they want or because they're not ready for the truth? :?

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#43 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

You're a Christian, aren't you? Look in the Bible. This is where it is read that He has sent people strong delusions. Even the Jews he had sent a strong delusion, as written by Paul in the New Testament. The Jews strong desire, essentially, to make everything so complicated, resulted, perhaps, in the Qabalah. It stems from their development of many rules, and whatnot. This seems to be a delusion for a negative effect. As for "they're not ready for the truth", it's not so much that, although it is that to a degree, as it is that it would be better for them in the long run to believe in something that they, for instance, may not turn away from. In the end, it's all up to God, who has a plan.

Android339

If God is basically beaming thoughts directly into people's heads, don't you think it would seem a bit odd that he would have compromise his message and to tell some white lies because otherwise the person would turn away from it?  I mean, given that he's God and all...

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RationalAtheist

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#46 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

uhm i mean the church is set into 3 hours. sacrament/priesthood-relief society/sunday school. sacrament is bread and water and whoever the bishop picked to speak the first sunday is fast and testimony sunday so anybody can walk up to the microphone and speak for however long till the hour is up. the other two are lessons laid out by the head of the church that they have to kind of stick to. theres usually a lesson book they are teaching out of it and try and base it off of that dont its not entirely uncommon to get off on exploring what exactly something means but it is just simply based on that lesson its very much a open discussion but then again you might get a teacher that goes straight by the book you never really know.

tachikoma679

So there's a prescribed education campaign with the church, but it seems that there is still flexibility in the teachings. I still can't see this reason as a strong attractor to the faith - only as a strong technique for maintaining it. Is it the mechanised consumption of doctrine that establishes Mormonism as a preferable religion to other forms of Christianity for you? If so, isn't this like Islamic Madrasses?

our beleif is the church should follow the laws of the land and we do in fact prop 8 was a weird thing because it was the first time the church spoke out politically. that said our prophecy for the end days is clear something to the effect of....and america wil fall from within and be hanging by a thread and at that moment the elders of the church will step in and save america. so im sure at some point we are going to start going against the laws of the land....but then again has the us government really been obeying the supreme law of the land the consitution lately? so would we really be violating that law by disobeying our corrupt government? even still God does on occassion authorize war.

tachikoma679

Mormonism is quite American-focused as a faith, isn't it? But Mormonism is international too. Is it possible for Mormons in different countries to obey their countries different laws that conflict with each others? I'm not in the USA myself, so have a harder time than Americans conceiving of the particular visions that religion portrays.

Does God really authorise war? Why be loyal to such a vengeful tyrant? And isn't the government corrupt only until a revelation to a minister that steers Mormonism back on a legal course.

im not sure on the whole history of those egpytian plates honestly. whether they were translated or not or bought or what im not sure. i have read them as they are part of our scriptures....they dontconflict with anything in the other scriptures though. how they came about ive never really looked much into myself.

tachikoma679

Its quite interesting looking into the history of the scrolls. They do seem to contain the basis of your faith. How this message was presented to your founder and how he translated it should be a vital part in the reasoning behind a belief in Mormonism to me.

in reality which is what i was saying the only way to understand my knowledge of GOd truely is to seek him out the way i said too otherwise youll forever never completely get what im saying and testimonys like that i imagine lose a little bunch over the internet.

tachikoma679

If you look for anything hard enough - you may think you've found it. Personal testimony is really all we have subjectively, but and objective sense of reason should apply critical thinking to such ideas for me, as I explained earlier.

but thats just it the broken sects dont follow the book of mormon nor do they follow Doctrine and covenants because they cant because by splitting with the new head of the church young they lost the priesthood which is essential to following the details of the scriptures so they cant follow them its impossible so in reality our current divine inspirations are still well in line with unmodified scripture. and yes we do place alot of it in the hands of its members however there is only one at a time who speaks for the whole of the church. human revelation was critical and still is because that is the means by which we are guided and maintain being the true church it is the means by which young was picked to succeed smith. human revelation can also be a little more specific for the current question at hand as well thats the point to constantly seek out and ask God and get to know him and seek his guidance in day to day issues otherwise u ahve to admit it would stink to get a giant book and say read this and see me in 80 years when u die divine scripture is also at its core human revelation nothing more than that so they are really the same thing in actuality.

tachikoma679

The tie in between the priesthood, revelations and proper Mormonism belies the original break Smith had with the church and its ministers to my mind. It rather neatly also means only authorised Mormons can have revelations (rather like the old ideas of Catholic priesthoods) that raised them above the common faithful.

yes there can be alot of how did that happen experiences....however theres only so much of that i can leave to that and not call divine help too much is circumstancely too much is miracle like and quite frankly ive got a load of those priesthood blessing working like magic stories over the years theres only so much i can call coincidence. again ive seen and been through entirely too much to ignore once again i am one of those souls walking this earth that indeed if i turned my back i meet said qualifications for outer darkness and i dont say that lightly either...you really got get knocked across to head to get into that category and have some wow moments. but again scriptures are full of folks with wow moments that still openly rebelled so they dont always do any good sadly. then i suppose ill ask you this those experiences if not divinely done then how did they occur?tachikoma679

The evidence you gained could be evaluated objectively. I think life is full of "wow" moments. These moments are not reserved for the faithful but are a only human responses to stimuli.

Rational explanations of your experiences could be to do with the "proper" and intimidating circumstances in court-rooms and the latent heat coefficient of defrosting bread in ambient conditions.

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RationalAtheist

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#47 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts
[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

In a way, you did seem to say that I should do some research, as what you wrote was not comprehensible in any meaningful way to me.

Android339

How can you even intelligently ask questions without knowing the slightest bit of background information?

Evasion! But I've looked it all up now, so thanks for your contribution to my understanding.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I'm entirely unsure why you created a thread here. I thought the pretext was a discussion on Mormonism. I'm entirely prepared to discuss my beliefs here. If that annoys you then this place is not the best place for you.

Android339

It does not annoy me. It annoys me when I'm being asked to define the most basic of what can be referred to as 'dictionary terms' in the LDS sense, by someone who has access to Google.

Thanks again. I've Googled everything I need to know about Mormonism now. That stuff about keys and priests was simple!

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I thought most Protestants were fairly tight on all of that stuff. How does the Mormon religion differ - in your eyes?

Android339

If they were that tight, there wouldn't be 33, 000 different, and distinct, denominations. There would be no need.

What do you mean by distinct? You haven't even mentioned one single point of disagreement between Mormonism and Protestantism yet. Don't worry though - I'll look it up on Google.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Why pre-suppose (once again) what I know? Rationalism is only a method, so does not indicate levels of knowledge to me. I believe that knowledge itself is transient, so can not establish any position of knowledge on most anything, myself.

Android339

I just figured a rational person would know a little bit about something before he tries to 'deconstruct' it, as you say the purpose of the Atheism Union is to deconstruct religion and faith.

But why pre-suppose what anyone knows though? As we've seen, it is a rather poor way to frame a debate. The best way for me is to try establishing what people think with questions, rather than making assumptions about it.

The purpose of the atheism union is to discuss religion. My own particular purpose is to deconstruct ideas, since this makes them easier for me to digest.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

There are such organisations as the World Council of Churches", the "Conference of European Churches" that do show some unity between Christian Protestant organisations.

Android339

There is some level of unity, that's true, but within them there are differing beliefs, and they are not united in the doctrinal sense. Just in the ecumenical sense.

An ecumenical sense is a sense of Christian unity, as per definition (according to Merriam-Webster). There is broad doctrinal agreement within the Protestant church, (according to Google, anyway).

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I was referring to an earlier conversation I remember with you where you dismissed LDS polygomists as "not being Mormon".

Android339

I didn't say they weren't Mormon. I said they weren't part of the LDS Church. Which they're not. "LDS polygamists" is an oxymoron, because if a member of the LDS Church were to practice polygamy, he would be excommunicated. There are Mormon polygamists, but they're not part of the Church.

So what is the difference between Mormonism and the LDS Church again? I thought The LDS Church was a Mormon religion.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I guess so, but the opinion should be a considered one, shouldn't it? I was wondering where the intellectual argument was.

Android339

A lot of it has to do with the miracle of the Book of Mormon.

Can we discuss miracles and intellectualism in the same sentence? What is the intellectual appeal of a miracle?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

My problem is with the Mormon ministerial "revelations" and the convenient times that they are revealed. Wasn't there one in 1978 that allowed black people to become Mormon ministers?

Android339

They represent the changing times. The priesthood was once limited to solely the Levites, and then the Gentiles aside from the descendants of Ham, and afterward all worthy male members. Joseph Smith, however, was ahead of his time when he acknowledged that black people actually had souls. =P

"Worthy" in what way are the male members? Why wait until 1978 to reveal that black men were worthy of priesthood?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Is there any use in applying any textual criticism to to the "revised Egyptian" texts used for the Book of Mormon?

Android339

It's "reformed" Egyptian. Textual criticism can be applied to the Book of Mormon, but from what I'm aware, there is no version of the Book of Mormon available today that is written in the reformed Egyptian.

How can you apply textual criticism to a source text that does not exist? Hasn't the whole "reformed Egyptian" myth been thoroughly de-bunked now? Wouldn't it be in a better interest to say that the translation was divinely inspired, rather than directly translated from ancient texts?

Why is your knowledge hesitant on this? Isn't the Smith revelation the entire basis for the Book of Mormon?

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tachikoma679

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#48 tachikoma679
Member since 2010 • 81 Posts

I've a question:So there's a prescribed education campaign with the church, but it seems that there is still flexibility in the teachings. I still can't see this reason as a strong attractor to the faith - only as a strong technique for maintaining it. Is it the mechanised consumption of doctrine that establishes Mormonism as a preferable religion to other forms of Christianity for you? If so, isn't this like Islamic Madrasses?

RationalAtheist
the teachings and the lessons and the scriptures all make the most sense really the other extra scriptures we have had a complete picture where as if you take the bible alone it really appears to be lacking something does it not?. and personally i like the format of being able to speak up in sunday if you disagree with something so if your teacher maybe has it all backwards and you have a quote from the scriptures they perhaps missed it can be corrected and discussed. i think that format does perhaps attract some people but again i cant speak for everyone the attraction to the church is as stated again reading the book of mormon and praying about it unless you do that youll never quite get the attraction to it. and besides islam or at least its leaders of its countries hate america and israel im not all too family with the religion otherwise [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Mormonism is quite American-focused as a faith, isn't it? But Mormonism is international too. Is it possible for Mormons in different countries to obey their countries different laws that conflict with each others? I'm not in the USA myself, so have a harder time than Americans conceiving of the particular visions that religion portrays. Does God really authorise war? Why be loyal to such a vengeful tyrant? And isn't the government corrupt only until a revelation to a minister that steers Mormonism back on a legal course.

the view on america is....its the choice land above all other lands...now moses lead his people to a choice land....but not a choice land above all other lands before you ask. we also hold the view america is special and divinely inspired and one of its greatest purposes was to in fact grant religious freedom so that God could restore his church and notice even with that mormons did got a death order from the US government....and remain to be the only church is USA history with that distinctive honor. why cant God authorize war? any passing study of our relgion seems to be clear if your wicked hes going to destroy you unless you repent. furthermore we actually have on scripture that says war is ok only if The LOrd authorizes it. hell the bible alone seems to be full of wicked folks getting destroyed so please dont discuss Christianity and somehow not think GOd wont authorize war that very notion is laughable. and please why exactly is the only corrupt after a revelation? LOL seriously anybody even a 4 year old can tell me politicians are lieing scum bags....honestly this is cherry picking a fairly obvious detail that government is corrupt really every government is and becoming more so by the second it seems. i dont live in chine or britian but i still know enough to know you have liars running the country. honestly man.....sorry no offense but this was a dumb question. but if you must know i'd have to guess it would be considered uncorrputed after it starts following the constitution again im not entirely sure nothing more is said on the matter other than the elders will save the country no how when or where. unless of course you dont think the governments are corrupt? and what do you suppose he does to the wicked unbeleivers that go around killing tons of folks? have us turn our cheek and take it so that the whole world is plunged into darkness?

Its quite interesting looking into the history of the scrolls. They do seem to contain the basis of your faith. How this message was presented to your founder and how he translated it should be a vital part in the reasoning behind a belief in Mormonism to me.

RationalAtheist
they might be vital and they are part of our scriptures that said i may of asked at some point where they came from and their history but i cant remeber and honestly it doesnt bug me and isnt something vital to my faith theres probably alot i dont know about the church but i do say i know a good bit but sorry i dont know everything about it. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

If you look for anything hard enough - you may think you've found it. Personal testimony is really all we have subjectively, but and objective sense of reason should apply critical thinking to such ideas for me, as I explained earlier. The tie in between the priesthood, revelations and proper Mormonism belies the original break Smith had with the church and its ministers to my mind. It rather neatly also means only authorised Mormons can have revelations (rather like the old ideas of Catholic priesthoods) that raised them above the common faithful.

yes personal testimony is subjective and i am all for objective reasoning. but to understand why i chose LDS over other churches is almost impossilbe without reading the book of mormon and praying about it. it really is as its the prayer and confirmation you get that makes you understand it. its that simple unless you do it you wont have that full grasp only a part of it which is like seeing half the tv screen your still missing half the show. that said why dont you read it and pray about it with and open heart and mind as ive suggested that is if you truely want to understand the LDS faith as you seem to be trying figure it all out with your barrage of questions. come on what do you have to lose exactly....not afraid you might actually find God are you now? yes as far as the head of the church only authorized mormons can get those revelations we call have receive personal ones. the original break was they didnt think young was the next prophet and perhaps other things but this was largely it they thought it should of been smiths son well ya that and polygamny but ive already explained that and so has android. and sure you may be able to have a revelation but it would contain to you and you only well and perhaps your family and friends. only the authorized heads of the church can receive guidances for the whole church. this authority of course comes soley from Christ. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

The evidence you gained could be evaluated objectively. I think life is full of "wow" moments. These moments are not reserved for the faithful but are a only human responses to stimuli. Rational explanations of your experiences could be to do with the "proper" and intimidating circumstances in court-rooms and the latent heat coefficient of defrosting bread in ambient conditions.

ok how about the countless times its been used to heal someone? i can recall myself being healed instantly i can recall going from massive high fever to jumping straight up and down further more i was probably 7 at the time this happened? surely these arent all just random instant stimulation? or how about asking for a blessing on injured limbs that look broken yet end up being merely bruised and have a quick recovery? honestly i can find countless examples for you to try and disprove. never mind if i seek out stories that have been published about it and stop just talking about my own personal experiences. youd never be able to scratch them all and evne then your arguements for the current two arent very strong especially if you asks the people invovled and even looking objectively bread does not defrost from solid rock to ediable in 5 minutes it just doesnt. or while were trying to disprove it go google mormon patriachal blessing go have fun disproving those you honestly cant account for it. heck my own and im sure many others contain thoughts that were secret in our minds to us and us alone that got revealed easily...agian google that patriachal blessing and have fun disproving those. and the best lawyers in the area dont magically crack under pressure they simply dont. people dont get hands put on their head and get pronounced they are healed and walk around find moments later without divine help. its just not happening. but feel free to explain these miracles other ways if you really think you can cover an explanation for all miracles ever go for it as essentially if you doubt the priesthood you must be able to explain every miracle ever because they all stem from God would they not and that is his power the priesthood. so i ask if you dont take my read a book of mormon challenge what exactly are you gathering by asking questions?
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tachikoma679

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#49 tachikoma679
Member since 2010 • 81 Posts
[QUOTE="Android339"]

Simply apply what I had written about societies, to people. Heavenly Father, I'm sure, would rather there be a just and righteous Muslim than one who shuns a moral code altogether. There is also the sense that God has, at times, sent people a strong delusion, according to what they've desired, because it is what they've desired.

GabuEx

So... you're basically saying that God effectively lies to people either because that's what they want or because they're not ready for the truth? :?

ah your no fun you replied to the other dude but not me i was reallly looking forward to answer to my question