Where does the skill come in when playing BLOPS?

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"]

[QUOTE="soulitane"]If you want to look at it that way, when you're younger didn't you play around and pretend to hit someone to see if they flinch and they don't flinch. You do know that is a reflex right? So there you can stop your reflex's even if it is a completely stupid example.soulitane

Do you understand what your saying? You want to train yourself not to have a reflex. A reflex is the quickest reaction you can have. It would actually be better if you had it. Thats one reason why you're wrong. Second, the first time you THOUGHT someone was going to hit you....you had a refelx. The next time you had seen the bluff before therefore you didn't have a REFLEX....and thats called experience.

[QUOTE="soulitane"][QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"] Really, you mean it didn't seem as if you already knew he was bluffing. Thats called experience. Besides, if you didn't flinch, then you DIDN'T have a reflex. You're contradicting youself.

DudeNtheRoom

Do you understand what your saying? You want to train yourself not to have a reflex. A reflex is the quickest reaction you can have. It would actually be better if you had it. Thats one reason why you're wrong. Second, the first time you THOUGHT someone was going to hit you....you had a refelx. The next time you had seen the bluff before therefore you didn't have a REFLEX....and thats called experience.

COD does take some skill(mostly in reflexes), but it is very, almost pathetically easy if you've played other shiooters. I don't know why you expected anything more from BLOPS.

Reflex is a big part of COD, but so is aiming. And I'm pretty sure if a grup of players were try to use tactics it would work well to their advantage. People just dont use any tactics. Lots of times I thought to my self if I could just tell my team mates what to do, and they listen, then we do a whole lot better in the game lol. Your tipical noob in COD, the guy camping in a small room in a corner, if you have slow reflexes its most likely a noob will kill you. If you have fast reflexes, and cant aim quick with accuracy, then you are likly do die as well. What I usually do is I either knife him or shooot him :D They dont ever have a chance since they are watching both entrances to the room.

This is getting dumb. of course reflex is skill, it's something that can be honed, trained, and can get better over time. your thinking of reflex only in the involuntary sense, like you depicted in your doctors office reflext test, but there is voluntary reflex as well. I'll give you an example. I run track, and at the starting block, when the gun goes off, your REFLEXES are what you rely on ito get you off your ass and running as quick as possible after the shot. its not involuntary, your body doesnt automatically fly off the block, otherwise every sing person would have perfect starts. But the fact is some people have horrible starts, because their reflexes aren't up to snuff, but of course, with enough practice, they get better and better. so that would mean the are honing their refexes.\there is no room for arguement, it is just common fact..

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"]

[QUOTE="soulitane"] So if you train yourself to stop reacting to that why can't you train yourself to react faster the next time?soulitane

Do you understand what your saying? You want to train yourself not to have a reflex. A reflex is the quickest reaction you can have. It would actually be better if you had it. Thats one reason why you're wrong. Second, the first time you THOUGHT someone was going to hit you....you had a refelx. The next time you had seen the bluff before therefore you didn't have a REFLEX....and thats called experience.

This is getting dumb. of course reflex is skill, it's something that can be honed, trained, and can get better over time. your thinking of reflex only in the involuntary sense, like you depicted in your doctors office reflext test, but there is voluntary reflex as well. I'll give you an example. I run track, and at the starting block, when the gun goes off, your REFLEXES are what you rely on ito get you off your ass and running as quick as possible after the shot. its not involuntary, your body doesnt automatically fly off the block, otherwise every sing person would have perfect starts. But the fact is some people have horrible starts, because their reflexes aren't up to snuff, but of course, with enough practice, they get better and better. so that would mean the are honing their refexes.\there is no room for arguement, it is just common fact..

xBLACK-MAGEx

[QUOTE="soulitane"][QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"]

Do you understand what your saying? You want to train yourself not to have a reflex. A reflex is the quickest reaction you can have. It would actually be better if you had it. Thats one reason why you're wrong. Second, the first time you THOUGHT someone was going to hit you....you had a refelx. The next time you had seen the bluff before therefore you didn't have a REFLEX....and thats called experience.

DudeNtheRoom

Alright then in COD the first time you see someone they kill you, the next time you're ready so you try faster and so on and so on, that's the same logic. Your reflexes can change and people can have a hand in changing their reflexes, in other words it takes skill to get better.soulitane

[QUOTE="soulitane"][QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"] Good god! If you TRY to be faster the second time around then it's VOLUNTARY!! Thats not a reflex!

DudeNtheRoom

I could be wrong, but if I remember right, a reflex action occurs when a sensor detects a stimuli, which sends a message to the brain, which interprets the message, which then responds & causes a reflex action. So, say, a character in a fighter has some special move that is hard to dodge. The eye picks up the move, sends the message to the brain, yada yada, the player tries to dodge. The more you practice to interpret this move earlier, the quicker your reflex will become.

....I think.

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"][QUOTE="soulitane"] Which in turn would take skill to learn that, so it's settled it takes some skill.soulitane

I could be wrong, but if I remember right, a reflex action occurs when a sensor detects a stimuli, which sends a message to the brain, which interprets the message, which then responds & causes a reflex action. So, say, a character in a fighter has some special move that is hard to dodge. The eye picks up the move, sends the message to the brain, yada yada, the player tries to dodge. The more you practice to interpret this move earlier, the quicker your reflex will become.

....I think.

[QUOTE="Twin-Blade"]

I could be wrong, but if I remember right, a reflex action occurs when a sensor detects a stimuli, which sends a message to the brain, which interprets the message, which then responds & causes a reflex action. So, say, a character in a fighter has some special move that is hard to dodge. The eye picks up the move, sends the message to the brain, yada yada, the player tries to dodge. The more you practice to interpret this move earlier, the quicker your reflex will become.

....I think.

DudeNtheRoom

Well, aren't you volantarily trying to shoot someone in CoD? Perhaps it isn't determined by reflexes, but instead reaction time.

Okay, I think I get what your tying to say, reflexes are only involuntary, ie when something is thrown at your face you blink, its not skill............therefore God also gave usspecial call of dutyreflexes ever since we were born, soif ever someone shoots us we automatically put our sights on him and shoot back, so cod requires no skill. our bodies are simply amazing.

ps iam being sarcastic

I could be wrong, but if I remember right, a reflex action occurs when a sensor detects a stimuli, which sends a message to the brain, which interprets the message, which then responds & causes a reflex action. So, say, a character in a fighter has some special move that is hard to dodge. The eye picks up the move, sends the message to the brain, yada yada, the player tries to dodge. The more you practice to interpret this move earlier, the quicker your reflex will become.

....I think.

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"]

[QUOTE="tagyhag"]

Skill: "the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well"

You can practice to improve your reflexes (Hence it being a skill).

tagyhag

Reflexes can be trained, boxers train it, goalies train it, the Navy SEALS train it, I have no idea how you can deny this.

It plays a major part in the sport of fencing aswell, also Pilots are pretty much required to have cat like reflex's in some situations xD. But TC is being pretty ignorant son maybe you should be off doing a google search on reflex training.

I know it exists as it used to be part of my fencing training and sometimes intensive.

Actually sounds extremely stupid but a great activity for improving reflexes is Dodgeball.Play it more and your reflexes WILL improve through various things like reaction times and response times to whatever is happening.

And btw its well know video games are good ways to train reflex skills in a visual/motor way aswell.

So son what you gotta say to this? that its involuntary behaviour?

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"][QUOTE="Twin-Blade"]

I could be wrong, but if I remember right, a reflex action occurs when a sensor detects a stimuli, which sends a message to the brain, which interprets the message, which then responds & causes a reflex action. So, say, a character in a fighter has some special move that is hard to dodge. The eye picks up the move, sends the message to the brain, yada yada, the player tries to dodge. The more you practice to interpret this move earlier, the quicker your reflex will become.

....I think.

Twin-Blade

Well, aren't you volantarily trying to shoot someone in CoD? Perhaps it isn't determined by reflexes, but instead reaction time.

Thats what I was getting at earlier in the thread. That said, its stil less of a skill then say judging and aiming. Reaction time can be adjusted from experience. Knowing where to go and when can help you anticipate shooting. Heres the scenario that I encountered over and over:

I was running and turned a corner and would get shot by someone turning around their corner. Half the time I won.......the other half, someone else.

It seems it's what and why they call it "twitch" gaming. It's just who can shoot the fastest. B/c you already have your gun aiming in front of you so all you have to do is shoot. It just seems as if this type of game has been redone over and over.

I could be wrong, but if I remember right, a reflex action occurs when a sensor detects a stimuli, which sends a message to the brain, which interprets the message, which then responds & causes a reflex action. So, say, a character in a fighter has some special move that is hard to dodge. The eye picks up the move, sends the message to the brain, yada yada, the player tries to dodge. The more you practice to interpret this move earlier, the quicker your reflex will become.

....I think.

[QUOTE="dog_dirt"][QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"] That is reaction time, b/c you are volantarily trying to do a certain move after seeing the particular special move. Reflex is absolutely instantanious and can't be controled. DudeNtheRoom

[QUOTE="dog_dirt"][QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"] That is reaction time, b/c you are volantarily trying to do a certain move after seeing the particular special move. Reflex is absolutely instantanious and can't be controled. DudeNtheRoom

your definitions are correct but the fact you claim you dont need to train them is wrong.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bioplyo2.htm

you can train your body to become better at said behaviours just like speech or any other normalised behaviour by the body.

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"]

[QUOTE="Twin-Blade"]

Well, aren't you volantarily trying to shoot someone in CoD? Perhaps it isn't determined by reflexes, but instead reaction time.

razgriz_101

Thats what I was getting at earlier in the thread. That said, its stil less of a skill then say judging and aiming. Reaction time can be adjusted from experience. Knowing where to go and when can help you anticipate shooting. Heres the scenario that I encountered over and over:

I was running and turned a corner and would get shot by someone turning around their corner. Half the time I won.......the other half, someone else.

It seems it's what and why they call it "twitch" gaming. It's just who can shoot the fastest. B/c you already have your gun aiming in front of you so all you have to do is shoot. It just seems as if this type of game has been redone over and over.

Sorry to burst your little ignorant bubble but reaction times are reflex behaviours.

Well, your wrong. Thats why there are 2 different words in the english language. Reflex is instantanious and NOT voluntary. Reaction time is the length of time it takes you to react. It's used as measurement. Soit's not the same, sorry toprove you wrong.Why did I call it reaction time? B/c"react" can be a reflex or voluntary gesture, like who you can thinkabout how to react in a certain way.Then since it's not areflex it's not instantanious therefore it takes"more" time,rather than the milisecond a reflex takes.

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"][QUOTE="dog_dirt"]so this thread has gone from you claiming that shooters have no skill to arguing what the work reflex meansrazgriz_101

your definitions are correct but the fact you claim you dont need to train them is wrong.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bioplyo2.htm

you can train your body to become better at said behaviours just like speech or any other normalised behaviour by the body.

Ok, smart guy.....how do you hasten a reflex which is instantanious? Oh, you mean stregthen your muscles to decrease your REACTION TIME to the part of the reaction that you enter thought? Not quite it, but close.

For all the kids who do so well in school but have no common sense:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_a_reflex_reaction_faster_than_a_voluntary_reaction

[QUOTE="Twin-Blade"]

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"] That is reaction time, b/c you are volantarily trying to do a certain move after seeing the particular special move. Reflex is absolutely instantanious and can't be controled. DudeNtheRoom

Well, aren't you volantarily trying to shoot someone in CoD? Perhaps it isn't determined by reflexes, but instead reaction time.

Thats what I was getting at earlier in the thread. That said, its stil less of a skill then say judging and aiming. Reaction time can be adjusted from experience. Knowing where to go and when can help you anticipate shooting. Heres the scenario that I encountered over and over:

I was running and turned a corner and would get shot by someone turning around their corner. Half the time I won.......the other half, someone else.

It seems it's what and why they call it "twitch" gaming. It's just who can shoot the fastest. B/c you already have your gun aiming in front of you so all you have to do is shoot. It just seems as if this type of game has been redone over and over.

Usually the player who hesitates less will win in those scenarios. It takes more than just good reflexes to be good at the game, the game is very twichy though. I think the reflex part comes more in close quarter combat, a good player will knife you instantaneously without any hesitation. I think that would be a good example of reflexes in the game.

Skill: "the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well"

You can practice to improve your reflexes (Hence it being a skill).

Skill: "the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well"

You can practice to improve your reflexes (Hence it being a skill).

Alright... the poster has completely contradicted himself.. topic title is "where does skill coem in when playing BLOPS?"

Argue Argue Argue about reflex's (which he said the whole games seems reflex based).

Continues on to argue that "voluntary" action aren't reflex's which means he agrees that its not entirely twitch "relfex" based.

Skill: "the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well"

You can practice to improve your reflexes (Hence it being a skill).

I think some people are confusing awareness with reflex

This conversation has become ridiculous. No one agrees with the TC hes basically just trolling.

This conversation has become ridiculous. No one agrees with the TC so basically he is just trolling.alextherussian

Not sure if this has been said but DudeNtheRoomis complety wrong. Well half wrong.

Our bodies produce 2 kinds of reactions...

Involuntary Reflexes and Voluntary. Voluntary is the kind like in COD or Halo where you see a bad guy and your brain sends a signal telling you he's bad and you need to kill him. That can be trained and you can see results in professional video game players, goalies, swimmers, I can literally go on for about 10 pages full of professions.

Then you have involuntary which is when a brick is falling off a building and your body (spinal cord) senses it and takes control of your body and NON consciecly does something to avoid it.

DudeNtheRoomcompletly confused the two...

Now back on thread point, does this game take skill?? Yes because the "voluntary relfexes" you use can be trained which is why some kids are much more skilled than others.

There is also something called a "conditioned Reflex" which I left out beause I didnt wanna further humiliate DudeNtheRoom.

/thread.

Reflex does not count as skill.DudeNtheRoom

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"] No, I gave the definition for reflex. My above post is when one person actually thinks about what someone is saying and converses. I admitted that there was some reaction time in it, but the reflex thing took off.DudeNtheRoom

your definitions are correct but the fact you claim you dont need to train them is wrong.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bioplyo2.htm

you can train your body to become better at said behaviours just like speech or any other normalised behaviour by the body.

Ok, smart guy.....how do you hasten a reflex which is instantanious? Oh, you mean stregthen your muscles to decrease your REACTION TIME to the part of the reaction that you enter thought? Not quite it, but close.

reaction times area reflex or are you far too ignorant to research it? come back when you actually know.Theres actually a part about visual/muscular reaction which discusses video games in that article so you sir have been dealt one mighty does of ownage so you might aswell run with your tail between your legs nah jk your far to ignorant and think you are right.

there are different kinds of reflexes, some are incoercible like when you close the eyes while sneezing or when - as DudeNtheRoom wrote earlier - the doctor test the patellar reflex. those are spontaneous reflexes that are commanded by the nervous system.

what you can train is the level of attention and the speed of answer to stimulus, and here is where DudeNtheRoom is wrong, because that's something you can train, as someone mentioned earlier, in many things of life, such as sports and yes, also in videogames, for which studies have repeatedly proved that videogames help improve reflexes, specifically hand-eye coordination, attention span and reaction times.

source: me and my University studies

[QUOTE="soulitane"]

[QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"] .......................................................the whole world has never heard of the pharse, "hold you breath"?DudeNtheRoom

breathing is not voluntary. it's an involuntary function controlled by the diaphragm to exchange oxygen and carbon-dioxide in the body tissues. it's true that you can hold your breath, but you can't stop the diaphragm from contracting or relaxing. the contracting and relaxing of the diaphragm causes a pressure level change in the lung that forces someone to breathe. if breathing was voluntary at all, which it isn't, then you would have to think about/concentrate and inhaling and exhaling. what's next? saying that the pumping of the heart is voluntary?

Reflexes count as skill. tagyhag

there are different kinds of reflexes, some are incoercible like when you close the eyes while sneezing or when - as DudeNtheRoom wrote earlier - the doctor test the patellar reflex. those are spontaneous reflexes that are commanded by the nervous system.

what you can train is the level of attention and the speed of answer to stimulus, and here is where DudeNtheRoom is wrong, because that's something you can train, as someone mentioned earlier, in many things of life, such as sports and yes, also in videogames, for which studies have repeatedly proved that videogames help improve reflexes, specifically hand-eye coordination, attention span and reaction times.

source: me and my University studies

aia89

The problem here is Reflex is being taken in the context of Biology. Reflex was also a word before biologists used it as a word to explain biological phenom.

Source, my education in biology.

For example, in biology, there are two major reflex's, one involving the brain, and the second involving relay neurones.

When the docotr strikes your knee with the rubber hammer that is a reflex using a relay neurone, this is found at the top of your leg in this instance and sends a similar impulse back down to the muscles in your leg to jerk your knee. There is no time for this message to reach the brain, however, with practice you can prevent this from happening, the is a voluntary response to the prevention of the reaction of a set stimulus. In this instance, I concentrate of keeping my leg stationary, the impulse from my brain to control my leg is stronger than the stimulus from the relay neurone.

The second reflex fucntion uses the brain, rather than a relay neurone, this is due to proximity and functions in the same manner.

As for breathing that is controlled but he autonomous nervous system, and is not a reflex. All physiological conditions, such as breathing and the heart are controlled in this manner. However, there is an instinctive reflex to breathe triggered in the brain in the medulla oblongata when a person consciously prevents themselves from breathing. this is possible because the diaphragm is control by both the autonomous and regular nervous system.

As for in English (or American!) Reflex is still a word, and words in a scientific discipline should not be confused with that of an English context. in accounting in america, income means what the Enlgish call profit, but both of these terms are outside the basic english meaning of the word. So if I say income or profit, it means what the dictionary says, unless i am talking in an accounting context.

For example synonym of Reflex is ability to react.

So, when we are discussing skill in Blops, and we suggest relfex is the skill, then we are reffering to your ability to react. This is not a function as in biology, just the basic definition of the word in a non scientific context.

wirey87

there are different kinds of reflexes, some are incoercible like when you close the eyes while sneezing or when - as DudeNtheRoom wrote earlier - the doctor test the patellar reflex. those are spontaneous reflexes that are commanded by the nervous system.

what you can train is the level of attention and the speed of answer to stimulus, and here is where DudeNtheRoom is wrong, because that's something you can train, as someone mentioned earlier, in many things of life, such as sports and yes, also in videogames, for which studies have repeatedly proved that videogames help improve reflexes, specifically hand-eye coordination, attention span and reaction times.

source: me and my University studies

aia89

The problem here is Reflex is being taken in the context of Biology. Reflex was also a word before biologists used it as a word to explain biological phenom.

Source, my education in biology.

For example, in biology, there are two major reflex's, one involving the brain, and the second involving relay neurones.

When the docotr strikes your knee with the rubber hammer that is a reflex using a relay neurone, this is found at the top of your leg in this instance and sends a similar impulse back down to the muscles in your leg to jerk your knee. There is no time for this message to reach the brain, however, with practice you can prevent this from happening, the is a voluntary response to the prevention of the reaction of a set stimulus. In this instance, I concentrate of keeping my leg stationary, the impulse from my brain to control my leg is stronger than the stimulus from the relay neurone.

The second reflex fucntion uses the brain, rather than a relay neurone, this is due to proximity and functions in the same manner.

As for breathing that is controlled but he autonomous nervous system, and is not a reflex. All physiological conditions, such as breathing and the heart are controlled in this manner. However, there is an instinctive reflex to breathe triggered in the brain in the medulla oblongata when a person consciously prevents themselves from breathing. this is possible because the diaphragm is control by both the autonomous and regular nervous system.

As for in English (or American!) Reflex is still a word, and words in a scientific discipline should not be confused with that of an English context. in accounting in america, income means what the Enlgish call profit, but both of these terms are outside the basic english meaning of the word. So if I say income or profit, it means what the dictionary says, unless i am talking in an accounting context.

For example synonym of Reflex is ability to react.

So, when we are discussing skill in Blops, and we suggest relfex is the skill, then we are reffering to your ability to react. This is not a function as in biology, just the basic definition of the word in a non scientific context.

Sangu1ne

the only flaw about your post is that it was posted on SW, where people do not care about stuff that makes sense.

the only flaw about your post is that it was posted on SW, where people do not care about stuff that makes sense.

Yes I fear that you are right!

I did neglect to post my thoughts on blops!

I totally agree with reflex being a skill, along with good aiming, but secondary indirect things are import, ie

timing a good reload,

whether to crouch or stand or lie prone and when is the right time

how long to wait in a position to take a shot before moving etc,

how to take corners, windows, using tactical grenades, all the iron sights optics etc.

But there is also the experience factor which is very important. For example learning the maps, but not just the layout, learning hotzones and what happens on each map in each game mode. Also the anticipation of other players is experince.

I think it is a skillful game in a micro respect, but on the macro, unless you have a strong team or good comms, its very weak. In comparion to BFBC2, i think it is its antipode, int he sense, micro is not such an issue on battlefield, its a cohesive team.

I never get a full team, but I play with one buddy often, and we prefer blops for just that reason, we cannot control macro as two of us on bigger games, so for solo or small teams, Blops just fits better to our skill set and what we can apply to it. My k/d is 2.20 and w/l is 1.70, so i think i am a reasonable player at it to comment.

[QUOTE="Skittles_McGee"][QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"] Oops, thats not actually true. Reflex: "2. Physiology An involuntary response to a stimulus. 3. Psychology An unlearned or instinctive response to a stimulus." It's involuntary, it can't be pracitced.

DudeNtheRoom

Why don't you quit calling it a REFLEX. IT's all about reaction time, not a involuntary reflex, just like baseball see ball hit ball. COD see bad guy shoot bad guy. Also it's about out smarting your opponent, map knowledge I don't know how many times an enemy and I have seen each other and the enemy is expecting me to come out at a certian point but I flank him or change routes.

COD doesn't take a whole lot of skill but it takes skill, or everyone who plays would have postive K/D ratio's and W/L ratios

[QUOTE="Skittles_McGee"][QUOTE="DudeNtheRoom"] Oops, thats not actually true. Reflex: "2. Physiology An involuntary response to a stimulus. 3. Psychology An unlearned or instinctive response to a stimulus." It's involuntary, it can't be pracitced.

DudeNtheRoom

Wrong.

Take a Psychology class. There are methods to stop a reflex or gain a reflex to stimuli.

Btw, yes CoD is who sees who first but not always I've gotten shot at plenty of times and ended up killing my enemy. The skill part comes in positioning yourself in the right spots and being able to outshoot your opponent. It's pretty simple to be honest. While it's an easy game, there still skill to it. My K/D is over 2.5 and I rarely stop moving but I never put myself in a vunerable spot. I also rarely lose. I've played over 150 games and I have 8 losses. That's all me by the way. In 150 games I have placed Top 3 in 117 games and gotten MVP in 108.

The only people who say games don't take skill are people who suck at games.

This thread is...hilarious. I read all pages :lol:

If all you play is zombies like me it takes tactics and teamwork to get into the higher levels. But besides that the actual multiplayer requires very little skill... but it's still fun :P