The Dreamcast was the last gamers console...

@storm_of_swords: But you are talking about the AAA scenario.

What makes 8/16bit games like Contra, Mercs, Ikari Warriors, Kid Chameleon, Metroid, Sonic, R-Type, etc better that Shovel Knight, Enter the Gungeon, Axiom Verge, Dust and Elysian Tail, Limbo, Inside, Rogue Legacy, etc? The only difference i see is the fact that those used to be the expensive AAA games, and now they are indies at ridiculously low prices.

Again, modern gaming alows us to play the complex and visually almost CGI level AAAs, and thanks to indies, all the classic genres you and me used to love back then. At the end we have much more options and diversity now.

@storm_of_swords:

have you ever taken a deep dive look on Steam?

The number of awesome games now is unprecedented but you have to be proactive about looking

And the nostalgia of oldness doesn't dazzle me. Dude, no matter what gen you're referring to there have always been good and bad games. That's why all of you "woe is me, gaming sucks these days" types confuse me tbh

@valgaav_219: I agree. People tend to only remember the 10 or 15 great games of each past gen, and forget that everything else was average or even bad.

For some reason they do the opposite when it comes to modern gaming. They always bring the few greedy examples ignoring that there are hundreds of better options available, both AAA and indie.

Dreamcast games (and arcade games, for that matter) had substance where it counts, the actual gameplay. Most games released this generation (including top/popular games) have been shoddy to mediocre in the actual gameplay department (with the exception of 2017).

As for Chu Chu Rocket, that launched for only $29.95 in North America and was even given away for free to Dreamarena users in Europe. Not to mention the game's creative online gameplay was groundbreaking for consoles at the time. For its time, it was great value-for-money (or no-money for those of us in Europe).

@jackamomo: Holy hell reading your post is like reading something my grandparents wrote..."Back in my day we walked up hill during a blizzard to play real games, I just don't understand today's games with their flashy graphics and all those buttons and new fangled joypads"!!! Insert picture of old bald man saying this all while his dentures keep falling out.

?

I never said it in a bad way.

I don't agree that the Dreamcast was the last "gamers console" but I agree that the Dreamcast was a well beloved and awesome game machine.

@vfighter: I was getting annoyed with flashy graphics in the 90's when they were prioritised over gameplay and you were still in nappies. Go play Rise of the Robots if you like graphics so much.

I don't think devs know how to make games any more, especially indy devs. Flashback reboot anyone? Road Rage 'the spiritual successor to Road Rash'. I bet they all used Unity, the mark of digital diarrhea.

I really implore everyone to check out The Games That Never Were series on the Dreamcast Channel on YouTube. There are 9 episodes of about 15 minutes each. I watched them all tonight again and there are so many great ideas in there that I think are excellent gameplay ideas which would still be great if somebody picked up.

Going off road a bit here but...

What really grinds my gears though is the steadfast dedication to ultra-violence in almost everything these days. I don't even like violence in video games (or more specifically, detailed and focused violence where you maul and mutilate guys because they are bad). I even felt sorry for the yellow hexagons in my Strategery mobile game when I wiped them out last night. I did think I was losing my mind a bit but it's a big point for me. I feel like my mind is being polluted by crap like 50 pence: Blood on the Street etc when I play them. Does every game ever need guns and violence? Not only is it lame but it's not exciting for the ten millionth time.

@jackamomo: I started gaming on a 2600 kid, please lol. There's so much variety in gaming right now if you can't find something you like it's time to stop and find a new hobby. I do enjoy the cherry picking of horrible games to prove your "point", Rise of the Robots, Road Rage, etc. You do realize that there are actually amazingly well done ones also, Shovel Knight, Sonic Mania, Super Meat Boy (oh that's right you're to god like and that game was easy lol), etc. At this point you're just trolling and being annoying, which is what you were doing from the start anyway.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to come across as harsh. Just saying I don't care where these yahoo's come from as long as the want to have good conversations. You did nothing wrong. I love you!

@vfighter: Obviously it's all just my opinion but Shovel Knight is a shining example of a brilliant game? It's not. Last night I checked out every WiiU game (it wasn't a long video) and my god I now see why that thing didn't sell. Must be the worst game library in history. It is all exactly what I said. "Look at my indy game! It's got big pixels but is a piece of sh*t! Buy it you gullible millennial scum BUY MEEEE!"

Sonic Mania not clinging to the coattails of former glories and nostalgia? Yes it is.

Super Mean Boy? Super Dull Boy more like! I was just trying to say in that I can play Super Meat Boy successfully that I'm not being angry about difficulty levels in trashing a game but in that it is just another game claiming to be authentic because it's very hard. There is like no innovation there and the art style is so bland.

I'm not trolling. These thoughts have been forming in my head for about 2 years now. I just wanted to let them out all over a forum somewhere and just happened on Gamespot.

I think it was the last console to really push boundaries and truly experiment. But there have been plenty of great systems since. I just wish they were all as willing to take risks like Sega used to be. Remember that memory card that doubled as a handheld? We need more creative thinking like that.

That settles it, when I get time this afternoon we're gonna find you some random "classics" to play :-p

@xantufrog Don't try and educate me about games. You will only end up being educated by me.

@Starshine_M2A2 The VMU was neat but as a handheld it was no great shakes. What is was cool for was having a display. No other console has done that since (the WiiU tablet with waggle sticks is not normal controller and doesn't count). The display could display the player number (ie. 1, 2, 3 or 4) and there were loads of possibilities there if it had lasted a bit longer. Also swapping data between carts could have been neat in certain circumstances.

I think the WiiU (with it's tablet controller) was really trying to push boundaries but no-one could figure out how to use it. The Wii-motes could have been great but the real problem was they just weren't accurate enough.

@dimebag667: LOL okay XD

I think most people just miss AAA arcade games that are short, fun pick up and play games. Not every game needs to be 10-60 hours long with a movie type story.

@jackamomo: lol

First of all, have a sense of humor, I'm a huge Dreamcast fan and it's far and away the retro system I play the most. I'm not here to convince you to stop liking it or something.

Second of all, there's nothing for you to "educate" me on - I've been playing games since the 80s and know first hand and damn well what games were like then and now. There are buckets of shit from back in the day, and it's easy to fondly remember - as I do! - the great standout titles from the last 30 years. But any top 100 list is 100 out of... thousands upon thousands upon thousands of titles that range from "good; liked it then but we're over it now" to outright trash. You can tell me whatever opinions you want, but you're not going to "teach" me anything about what my personal experiences with the hobby have been. You're the one here playing wise and telling people what to think about gaming. If you don't want rebuttals or disagreement, maybe you shouldn't have started the thread

@xantufrog:

Agreed. Without the nostalgia goggles on, we only enjoyed the majority of those games because that's all that was out there. I loved the Dreamcast too but I'd be lying if I said that most of those games are as good as I remembered.

I agree on this. That's what I miss and that's the thing that I'm most dissatisfied with in regards to modern gaming.

@Litchie: They saved themselves. Not sure if they saved ALL of gaming or if it needed saving at all. But it is a very good system.

The controller on the dreamcast is junk. I always thought the console was great--better image quality than the ps2. The console is built well but damn that controller is the cheapest piece of junk.

@heirren: I LOVE how it fits my hands. The size and shape was molded for me, I swear. But yeah, the analog is sad and the d-pad is too mushy

@xantufrog:

Yeah it has more to do with the quality of the parts, namely the stick and triggers. Swear it's the only controller in existence that feels as though it needs an oil change.

@xantufrog: That just sounds dirty...

I am just pointing out that the gaming sphere at the moment is a bit creatively stagnent. Indy games are often pretentious pretenders (Shovel-ware Knight) and no-one knows how to make a fun game any more. I am not making a distinction between arcade games and 'movie' games as only one type of game can be enjoyable or telling people what to think. Just that developers have become obsessed with polygons and fps's when these things are in no way relevant to anything. If a game has 4k graphics and 24tetraflops of polygons per second but the textures are ugly and the colour scheme is brown and grey it will still look bad. So priorities are all wrong. This thread could be closed at this point anyway as it's just people going "No, no, no its not, your wrong!", then me going "Ah-ha! Yeah! I'm right so I am!" How can you mess up a Flashback reboot? By thinking the controls on the original are too stiff. A developer who does not understand games. AKA most of them. Just look at the WiiU library, it is garbage. Ya'll come back to me when you've watched all the Games That Never Were vidoes and then tell me there is innovation in this industry.

@vfighter My neighbour had a 2600 and I thought the fireworks when you scored a goal in Pelé Soccer were the most amazing graphics I'd ever seen and I think they were at that point. I had a Vic20 with 20 odd carts but they were mostly text adventures and I only liked Radar Rat Race. My other (better) friend had a spectrum though and that is where home video games really started for me. The variety on that thing is unmatched to this day and they were so damn playable if you just had the patience and didn't walk past the tape machine (too heavily) when it was loading.

@xantufrog Yeah the analogue stick is a bit sad and if you play fighters, you better learn not to push down hard on the d-pad or you will get blisters like golf balls.

Prison Architect and it's imitators is a genuinely new genre I would say though and I do really like that game.

@Heirren There is in fact an attachment to use PS2 controllers on the ol' DC.

@Starshine_M2A2:

I can't believe I said I was a high level player, what an asshole.

I think I was still high on getting to level 8 on Thunderforce IV.

This is how long a cut scene should be on all games, also with this exact soundtrack.

https://youtu.be/WXbwXJ5qJUs?t=1047

So much bullshit in just one sentence...

What was ICO? SotC? Jak and Daxter? Ratchet and Clank? Devil May Cry? God of War? GTA III (not a new franchise per se but had little to do with older GTA games nor was GTA "popular" before GTA III)? Okami? Kingdom Hearts? Bully? Katamari Damcy? Dark Cloud? And probably way more I'm fogetting right now... didnt knew these were already popular franchises and had no innovation whatsoever...

So, in conclusion, inform yourself 1st before spouting idiocy and ignorance

The PS2 won because it was the better console. Deal with it

@Vatusus: What was ICO? SotC? Jak and Daxter? Ratchet and Clank? Devil May Cry? God of War? GTA III (not a new franchise per se but had little to do with older GTA games nor was GTA "popular" before GTA III)? Okami? Kingdom Hearts? Bully? Katamari Damcy? Dark Cloud? And probably way more I'm fogetting right now... didnt knew these were already popular franchises and had no innovation whatsoever...

Well, GTA, 3D platformers, a couple more 3D games and Katamari. Is not blowing me off my seat I can tell you.

Did you watch the video's I linked? No, I don't think you did, did you. Watch the videos, then you can accuse me of being ignorant.

Did the PS2 even have a light gun?

Watch a video on it Vatusus here is The Completionist doing his top 10 games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAQlzvcEz9Q

Here is a list of peripherals available for the DC

• Arcade sticks
• Fighting pad (Japan only)
• Dreamcast Fishing Controller.
• Dreamcast Keyboard.
• Dreamcast Mouse.
• Mad Catz Light Gun.
• Samba de Amigo Maracas.
• Microphone
• Dream eye (Japan only)
• VGA cable
• Driving wheels
• Broadband modem

And now the PS2

• Standard black DualShock 2 controller.
• A Logitech Driving Force GT wheel and pedals.
• A PS2 arcade stick.
• Wired Singstar microphones.
• Wireless Buzzers and USB adapter.
• PS2 DVD remote control.
• PlayStation AV (composite video/stereo audio) cable.
• PlayStation component (YP_BP_R) cable.
• Guitar band drums and shit
• Multitap for more than 2 players
• Where are the light guns Sony?!

In fact, Vatusus, go and play with your Nathan Drake doll, grown ups are talking. Or maybe polish your Amebo collection.

Same. Sometimes I just want to have fun, and not have to slog through your generic story.

I do agree that nostalgia is dangerous in these arguments, but I still find it hard to not say most games I played before were better. You are 100% correct saying there are tons of duds currently and in the past, but I didn't have the chance to play them. To be honest I only think I owned maybe 6-7 games the entire SNES generation. I might get one or two a year tops, but I put everything I had into them. The duds I played were rented games, so I really didn't lose much. I guess an easy counter argument is that I remember them so fondly because they were everything to me, and I had nothing else...but I still think, at least is some ways, that they were factually better in some ways, and at least more pure in other ways. Great games are still being made, but the games that should be amazing seem to fall short regularly. I haven't played a single game on this generation of consoles that I loved, except for stuff that was on the last generation. And I know there has to be something out that I would love, but I don't have the desire to search them all out. I feel like the world used to be curated better.

I saw an infographic a while back that showed how many games last gen were ranked 7 (or 8, I can't remember) and higher, and then compared them to the this gen. Since this gen isn't over, they just used the first four years of last gen (it might have just been about the ps4) but there were way more highly ranked games last gen. I wonder how the older systems would fare.

Likewise. Back in the '80s and '90s, arcade games were shorter but more fun, combined with the most cutting-edge AAA production values of their time. AAA arcade games like that just aren't around anymore, at least outside of Japan.

Nothing you said was a fact. it was all wrong and just plain ignorant. You don't know anything about gaming. I am one of the few who has been playing games since the NES and I had a Dreamcast too. Stop trying to rewrite history. The PS2 was a better system than the Dreamcast and had better games. The Dreamcast had nothing in depth like Gran Turismo, God of War, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, MGS2 or FF10. It had nothin like Smash bros, Zelda, Metroid Prime or Eternal Darkness. The Xbox (which I didn't even have) had better games with halo, Splinter Cell, Forza, Fable, Ninja Gaiden and KoTOR. The fact is the Dreamcast was just an arcade system as stated with a bad controller and games that lacked depth and most were on rails. original ideas don't equal good games and never did. Seaman was original, but was it great? People criticize quick time, but it was Shenmue that was one of the pioneers of QTE. You ask what PS2 owner's wanted? Well as a PS2 owner and I still own my PS2. I wanted games, lots of them and that is what me and everyone I knew got. No one cared about the DVD player so I don't know why you revisionists always bring that up lol. The PS2 sold the most games of all time at that point for a reason.

You really don't know what you are talking about so please shut up since you have not played any of the games you named. You really are an idiot if you think you can play Uncharted, TLoU or MGS with just pushing buttons on screen prompts. Really, people like you are trash and ruin gaming with your ignorance. those games won tons of awards for being great games for a reason. Try playing them instead of being a loser on a website bashing something he has no experience playing. You make yourself look like a horse's behind. Nintendo made the Wii by the way, that was a casual console retard. What happened to when people actually played games instead of being online trolls? I always have to remind myself that people like you are just the scum of the internet. Challenging games sell poorly? Yeah you never heard of Bloodborne and Dark Souls or Nioh. All sold well and are harder than any Nintendo game. Nintendo was never hardcore and their games were never difficult. I got the Switch and Bloodborne is was more challenging than Zelda as Knack 2 is harder than Mario Odyssey. Stop trying to change reality.

You think Bethesda and Rockstar make highly polished and innovative games? ROFL. Yeah buddy you suck and no nothing about gaming. Get out of here. Fallout 4 was trash (played 20 hours of it) and it was as buggy as a flea ridden dog lol. Rockstar barely makes anything and keep relying on GTA5 and that is also buggy. Neither has made anything innovative since like the 90s. You are an amateur gamer kid. You are not in my league at all. The most polished game this generation was Uncharted 4 and Horizon: zero Dawn, of course you don't know that since you can't play every game like I can. Here's a tip, stop speaking on games that you have not played. Bethesda releases the same games again and again as does Nintendo and Rockstar. You contradicted yourself. The Withcer 3 was buggy too, though it was a good game but nowhere ner the level of quality that Horizon provided. You should play it for yourself since you claim to be such a "gamer". Man most of you posters don't know anything about games outside of your little bubble. I have played thousands of different games.

It isn't. That guy is an idiot. he doesn'y know anything about game. People like him hut the industry. They are trash.

Yeah buddy you suck and no nothing about gaming.

Yeah but you can't spell.

...people like you are trash and ruin gaming with your ignorance...people like you are just the scum of the internet...

Bit strong...?

@blufalconultra:The Dreamcast had nothing in depth like Gran Turismo, God of War, Ico, Shadow of

the Colossus, MGS2 or FF10. It had nothin like Smash bros, Zelda, Metroid Prime or Eternal Darkness.

Come on now...

Gran Turismo > Sega GT, Test Drive Le Mans or F355 Challenge

(although all these games are dull simulations, better off with Metropolis Street Racer imho which is sim enough for me)

God of War > (Good)

Ico > Evil Twin: Cyprien's Chronicles

Shadow of the Colossus > (thats God of War again isn’t it?)

MGS2 > Headhunter

FF10 > Skies of Arcadia

Smash bros > Power Stone 1 & 2

Zelda > Grandia

Metroid Prime > MDK2

Eternal Darkness > Resident Evil: Code Veronica

I say the PS2 didn't have nearly as much variety despite being around like 13 years and selling 155million and the DC about 3 years and 10 million.

What games on the PS2 can compare to these DC games?

Jet Set/Grind Radio, Crazy Taxi, Rez, Phantasy Star Online (first ever mmorpg anyone?), House of the Dead 2 (sorry ps2, no light guns), Typing of the Dead, Virtua/2K Tennis, Space Channel 5, BangaiO, Samba De Amigo, Quake 3: Arena (online baby), Ecco the Dolphin, Cannon Spike, Seaman (better than a tamagotchi), Record of Lodos War (Diablo clone).

PS2 has no games that are in the same genre as the above mentioned, period. Xbox does but that because it just hoovered up all the software bound for the DC (as in Fable) and Panzer Dragoon.

The best version of Resident Evil in Resident Evil Code: Veronica (best RE game of that gen) and for fighting games just forget it, the DC wins hands down no contest. Marvel vs Capcom 2 (in terms of quality of port this is the best) as is Street Fighter 3: Third Strike.

I say DC top ten list has better (and more varied) games than the PS2 if not in graphics, in gameplay and functionality (ie online/features/smooth framerate).

Oh yeah, and DC had better specs than the PS2 and more graphical potential...

Ok maybe that post was a bit long. Is worth noting Fable and Shinobi were bound for the DC.

Bootleg Indiana Jones interactive movie and a Zelda ripoff, lol.

@jackamomo: I did a search and it seems that the Namco G-CON 2 worked for the PS2.

Oh, so by your definition "peripherals = overall quality of a console"... I guess the Wii is the best console ever released then cause it was full of those

stfu

What matters are games and PS2 had the best and some of the most groundbreaking games ever released

Dont be salty because the PS2 wiped the floor out of the DC in both quantity AND quality

PS: And who gives a shit about the completionist? Guy is a tool

Because Nintendo don't innovate or put creativity into their games, just Sega?

Even then, I don't agree that PS and 3rd party developers don't put creativity into their games. And as 3rd party developer themselves, Sega hasn't been the best themselves.

Also, you can't blame the industry, most gamers don't put their money where their mouth is when it comes to innovative or original games, they brag about them more then play them.

@Vatusus: Oh, so by your definition "peripherals = overall quality of a console"... I guess the Wii is the best console ever released then cause it was full of those

No, not in itself but it does give you an idea of the variety of gaming options that were available on that system. I mean it had online play, don't say thats not an experience the PS2 could deliver coz it never had it.

PS2 is all grindy grey and brown shooters. Ptooey.

@HalcyonScarlet I think the games industry is like the capitalism and free market economies as opposed to more regulated or even up to Communist economies, in that people always want low taxes, but when they get them and the economy tanks have no idea why it happened. SEGA was Communist Cuba and Sony Capitalist USA.

Cool, it had a variety of gaming options but barely any good games to play them with. So great...

PS2 is all grindy grey and brown shooters. Ptooey.

Now you're just trying way too hard. Especially when none of the game examples I already gave you were "grindy grey and brown shooters"...

Keep the salt. DC failed for a reason

@jackamomo: ps2 is not all Grindy grey shooters, and you'd know that if you had one at the time. In fact, shooters were a minute part of its library. You cant expect people to take your "educational" posts seriously when you blatantly make stuff up to sell your narrative.

Nah, the DC2 aka, OG Xbox, then 360 and now Mighty X1X is the true gamer machine. :P

@xantufrog: @Vatusus OK not PS2 is not all grindy grey shooter but it had a fair few. I did like the PS2 especially Tekken games and Vice City (just driving around as I found the actual game less fun) and loads more I'm sure. I'm mean it sold 155 million, they were in every uni dorm and house share in the country so you played it alot. I just think that kind of game became popular because of a fluke. And really only because SEGA ran out of cash from being ran so badly from like 1996-99 in the early years when you need to pump loads of cash in to get people buying and they lost everything on 3 utterly failed consoles.

@dimebag667: thanks for the great and thoughtful reply. I really respect that view. I like to play a good mix of old favorites and cherry pick new gems each year. I don't have much gaming time, so I don't even worry about a game if it looks kind of generic to me - there's gotta be something better for me to spend my 10 minutes of game time on, lol

@jackamomo: yeah it's a real travesty the DC died so quickly. I totally agree that in it's shirt life it had a really diverse library. Also, games like Ecco in VGA look better than many OG Wii games!

On of the weird games I like to go back to a lot is Wetrix++ That's one weird puzzler