The Dreamcast was the last gamers console...

I have become obsessed with the Dreamcast over the past two years as I notice games becoming more and more generic and safe as the corporate dollar dominates the industry more and more.

It seems since the DC lost to the PS2, games have taken a different path as a result, with the PS2 owners who wanted a DVD player now controlling the market.

What does the PS2 player want? Well they don't know. They are the casuals. They want familiarity. Nearly all the biggest selling games on the PS2 were sequels to already popular franchises and almost no innovation came from the PS2 library.

Then xBox came to town and there was Halo.

This is not my opinion, it's generally regarded as fact at this point. Creativity in the games industry died with SEGA (proper).

I also don't regard indy games as something to point at for creativity because I find them to be just as bad if not worse than the big corps at churning out crap but they claim authenticity because low res sprites and trying to associate with the quality 16 bit games from the 90's but when it comes to playing these games they have no life in them. They are just "look at me I'm so cool and idiosyncratic because low res sprites".

So I think the issue, for consoles at least, is that there is no middle ground for game development in-between the risk-free kickstarter / bedroom programmer just putting it out with no personal investment or the DICE and Bungies spending millions and millions on each and every generic bloke shooting stuff game you've seen a thousand times but shinier.

Are there mid range studios like in the 2000's of around 50 employees or are they all either massive or a couple of guys in a bedroom?

The console sphere at this point offers almost nothing to someone who is interested in what possibilities there are for computer games and gameplay. Rather, you have to sit and watch 'graphics' and 'acting' until you get to finally move at which point it's like playing a game with training wheels. Fine if you're new to computer games or very lazy but boring if you enjoy gameplay.

I bought Super Meat Boy. It was very very boring even though I consider myself a high level player and did not find it difficult. There was no character or atmosphere or variety. Games like Trine are just not fun and play slowly and clunkily as if your game has to be just one of two things now: pretty or hard.

I was saddened by the Kingdom Hearts 2 with it's flash style 2d cut out sprites with insane body proportions. It seems we are stuck in the 1960's when it comes to gender representation as well.

The games industry, I think, turned it's back on the 'gamers' (*spit* hate that phrase) of the 16bit era who value the game itself (mechanics and gameplay) over the visual presentation.

It seems like this has turned into a PS2 vs Dreamcast discussion. My opinion on that is that the Dreamcast was the superior console especially when they were in direct competition and even by the end of the generation, I still thought that the Dreamcast was better. In fact, I thought that all of the sixth gen consoles were better than the PS2.

I have two issues with the PS2. The first is that it’s hardware sucked and therefore it always had the worst version of multiplats, so as an owner of all of the consoles from that generation, I never had any reason to buy the PS2 version of any multiplat. The Xbox version was always superior to the PS2 version, the Gamecube version of all of the games that I cared about were always superior to the PS2 version, and even between the PS2 and the Dreamcast, despite the Dreamcast being technically weaker, the Dreamcast still had better versions than the PS2 for all of the multiplats that I can think of since the PS2 hardware was such a difficult mess to develop for.

The second issue that I have with the PS2 is that I felt that it really lacked in creativity and innovation, and started the trend of the gaming industry becoming more like Hollywood which is not a good thing in my opinion. Besides playing DVDs, what did the PS2 really bring to the table in terms of creativity or innovation? Even the name of the console was lazy and lacking any creativity. In fact, not only did it lack innovation, but it was also behind the times with things such as only having two controller ports while every other console since 1996 had four. It makes me sad that a console like the Dreamcast which was filled with lots of creativity and innovation got destroyed by the black hole of creativity and innovation that was the PS2. The Gamecube and Xbox were also way more innovative and creative than the PS2 yet they got destroyed by it as well and all because of the BS hype and marketing that Sony generated.

I guess I got to give Sony credit from a business perspective since their marketing of the PS2 was amazing and managed to make the PS2 the winner of the generation before it even had good games (it's launch was terrible compared to the launch of the Dreamcast, Gamecube, and Xbox) and despite it being difficult to develop for, having inferior multiplats for multiple reasons, and lacking in creativity and innovation. But from a gamer's perspective, I don't have a lot of respect for the console. I don't hate it since I did get some enjoyment out of it and I still play it once in a while even to this day, but I don’t respect the BS tactics that Sony used to generate hype for it. And I'll never respect it like I do all of the other consoles that were far more innovative and creative like the Dreamcast. And I hate how the PS2 started the trend of the gaming industry becoming more like Hollywood while such an innovative, creative, and gamer focused console like the Dreamcast had to die too soon despite it delivering such amazing content in just the 1.5 years that it was active.

Have you taken a look at Space Engineers? or maybe The Forest?

@jackamomo: This is not my opinion, it's generally regarded as fact at this point."

Thing about facts is, they don't require "general regarded" acceptance. They simply are. Example: Submerging your head in water with no breathing apparatus then attempting to inhale will begin the drowning process. It is simply a fact that human lungs cannot process oxygen while attached to hydrogen atoms.

You have not posted fact. You have posted you own held opinions. No matter how many people agree with you it doesn't make it fact.

Nope

@cainetao11: Your right, it's difficult to call it fact apart from the number of original ideas on the DC which was not present on any other console. Also, it is becoming if not has become a generally regarded opinion.

Can you image Seaman coming out on the Xbox X?

Even the design of the consoles is absurdly similar. Anyone for another black rectangle? The hardware since the xbox is also just a (previous gen) pc in a box where the Dreamcast was basically a Niaomi (probably spelt wrong) arcade board.

or tried Subnautica? RimWorld? Empyrion?

I am never amazed at how many gamers complain about the state of gaming and yet never even consider games such as what I just listed, that is just a small handful

Opinions are not facts buddy.

@da_illest101:The Forest and Subnautica are inferior open world combinations of Minecraft and DayZ and in terms of gameplay are focused on crafting and long term progression rather than the gameplay itself.

Rimworld looks nice but it is a pc game really and not a gamers game but a nice relaxing strategy game.

MonseirX, you can't just say "Nope". You have to back up your opinion with an opinion.

The last new games I loved was Hotline Miami and DayZ (mod).

While Sega were really creative, the industry has been booming in creativity since they left the hardware field as game development becomes more accessible to indies.

I too would rather Sega be in the industry than Microsoft.

You're trying to state that your opinion is a fact, which isn't

Not really. By him saying "nope", he's expressing all the opinion he needs to. He's one person who doesn't agree with your asserted fact, thus reverting that fact to opinion. Even if you can stretch it so say "popular opinion", it's still opinion. And I agree with him. Creativity is still flourishing in the games industry. Case in point: Nintendo.

@jackamomo: You won't get an argument from me on some points. I still am being entertained by gaming. When i am no longer I will stop playing and buying.

1. "This is not my opinion, it's generally regarded as fact at this point. Creativity in the games industry died with SEGA (proper)." LOL

2. You're living in the past, pal. Wake up and smell the coffee!

So many new users on SW. How did we end up recruiting more new users all of a sudden?

OK people. I did say 'fact' because I wanted to wind people up a bit. Obviously it can't be considered a fact.

But you can come close to calling it that if you consider how many new genre's have been explored since 2001. I think apart from Guitar Hero rhythm genre there are precisely 0.

The DC introduced cell shaded graphics, online play and the best memory cart of all time and it had a game in Samba De Amigo which is more fun than any Wii-mote game. Oh yeah and it had *gasp* a mouse and keyboard! Why do modern consoles not have this?!!?!?!

I think it is close to a fact because I pay attention to everything that comes out and my god does everything look and play almost identically.

Also I am referencing this https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267959110_The_Dreamcast_Console_of_the_Avant-Garde academic article.

PS. Nintendo are a creative graveyard. That is just my opinion. I don't like their nursery school level characters, stories and environments and find the gameplay to not have moved on since Super Mario Bros. Mario Cart has not moved on since Mario Cart, now it's a jumbled mess like most other Nintendo games. Or they try something like Splatoon "it's so original!" Coo'd the reviewers. No it's not. I can see that game is not fun from just a glance and just another boring arena shooter. Damn you John Carmak - you can not design games - you are not a game designer - do not follow John Carmack if you are designing a game. God I hate the Arena shooter genre.

However, Sonic Adventure was the last good Sonic game as it's sequel was atrocious. I will be honest. I don't like 3d platformers or even shooters.

I agree, the original post is an opinion . But I sort of agree with the opinion or idea behind it.

I’ll give an Extreme example at first. The order 1866. This game sums up the originals post idea / argument. Games are becoming stories we watch with great graphics but just aren’t that fun to “play” or have weak gameplay mechanics. In the case of the order the game really bores me and I couldn’t get past 2 hrs.

A lot of people would probably agree with me on the order. But a game where folks would disagree with me is Uncharted 4. This game too I found boring. Not as bad as the order. But so many parts I was just like pushing forward on the stick to watch nathan walk thru scenes. And then it was so repetitive. Come to an area. There’s a ledge u can’t reach. Find a crate to push under it. Now can reach. Proceed.

And it happened again to me with Arkham knight. Bought the game on sale and can’t get past 3 hr of the same thing. Chasing objective markers in the world. Using bat vision then calling your bat mobile to use as a crank to pull down a wall or something.

However I’m not as forlorn as the original poster. I think there are still great games out there. I loved ori and the blind forest. For what ever reason gta5 was really enjoying. And I think Nintendo are the ones now who make games and don’t put in insane amounts of budget for graphics and effects but focus on game play mechanics. Games like Mario Odyssey and breath of the wild or Mario Kart as examples.

Sony games on the other hand look a lot better but I’m not sure how much more fun they are. They also cost a lot more to make and ironically end up selling for a lot less than Nintendo games as sony’s games price drop quickly. Example for Black Friday Mario Zelda splatoon mark kart all were full price most places. Same goes for the system itself.

Lastly that new sucker punch game coming out. I read recently that they are motion capturing horses. I’m sure that’ll look cool but will it make ya want to still play the game for fun years from now like people still play super Mario 1? Doubt it.

Creativity didn't die with the Dreamcast. There has been plenty of creativity after it, from the PS2 to the Switch.

However, it's also true that no console that came after the Dreamcast has been able to match its creativity. But that's simply because the Dreamcast was one of the most creative consoles in gaming history. That's a very high bar.

There has been plenty of creativity since then, but just not to the same extent that we saw with the Dreamcast.

@Jag85: Maybe saying creativity died is a bit extreme but I think it took a sucker punch in the gut. Developers seem to just focus on one aspect of a game. Like Journey 'it's so beautiful' but I have no intention of playing it, it looks so bland at the end of the day just one note.

Game development on Sony and MS consoles has moved to a new audience and they are the bra's. Nintendo still focuses on children and fan's who will buy it becasue they love the brand but everyone else jumped ship to the pc around a decade ago for variety and just play the old games on emulators or old consoles if they have the money, space, time and inclination.

Great, another one of these "it was back in my day" threads.

@speedfreak48t5p: Well if you're 15 I feel sorry for you. You are still having your hand held even though younger people have far better and faster reactions, all they get is Cratos. They don't know any better! Also, I hate how I jump on everyone and always post too much so no-one bothers commenting and I kill my own thread...

This whole post is wrong because:

A) SEGA is not dead and gone. They are still around and perfectly active in the gaming industry.

B) The only changes with the company are that don't manufacture their own hardware anymore, their brand of creativity doesn't have the same massive appeal as it used to and their bank accounts are much smaller than they used to be.

C) The notion you think that indie games are nothing more than bland, low-res pixel games with no creativity tells me that you're extremely unaware of what is actually out there in indie sector.

@Micropixel: Yes, well, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

I'm not sure SEGA is still developing games though. Publishing Football Manager is not exactly cutting edge. The Spectrum version is better anyway.

Name me one good indy game that isn't Minecraft (which isn't even technically a game anyway) or Hotline Miami which was a good game. Then I will dissect it and take it apart for you.

I am of course largely talking crap. Mini Metro is a pretty good game for instance and I liked World of Goo but finding them is hard and I'm not really talking about indy games as they tend to be more about ideas than fully fledged realised polished 'new ip's' with med-high-budgets.

It has been argued that SEGA made a style of game that was just no longer popular but I think it's more to do with marketing budget and their lack of it when it counted. I think they made games which appealed more to females than most of today's offering's too. I really feel the industry is slowly consuming itself like a sweaty teenage boy locked in his room with pornos and pizzas and tends to ironically actually put casuals off who are not that into muscles and bazzookas.

One game? Okay... How about critically acclaimed: "The Vanishing Of Ethan Carter"

Dissect away!

Nah. The last gamer’s console was the Atari 2600. The controller had 1 stick and 1 button. That’s all any real gamer ever needs. :P

I've been playing a long long time, and the DC is a real gem, but I don't understand how so many people are unable to find creative and risky games these days. They are everywhere. Forget PUBG, Battlebro, and Gears 13. Most of the great stuff on DC and before was surrounded by janky shit, Mario clones, movie tie-ins, and just about anything you can bitch about today minus dlc and lootcrates.

I dare anyone to use a random number generator to select 10 games from the DC library and that's what they get to play for the next year. Good luck. Your odds of landing Legacy of Kain or Skies or Arcadia are not good.

Games get better every gen.

Most Dreamcast games honestly suck. They were all “arcade” games/ports. Or weird mini games like seaman. Then a couple good fighting games and Shenmue/skies of Arcadia.

Console was lame.

OP pribably blocked Nintendo out of their memory after they singe handedly caused Sega's exist from the console industry with vastly superior games and hardware.

I agree with the general premise of the post though. Sony and MS consoles have always been for casuals. The most popular games on the console are "movie" games where stories are told through cut scenes and gameplay consists of pushing buttons when the screen prompts you to (see stuff like Uncharted, Last of Us, MGS etc.). Shooters on console all have auto-aim (because they would benunplayable otherwise), but that just adds to the casual experience.

The only consoles for hardcore gamers are PC and Nintendo.

OP probably blocked Nintendo out of their memory after they singe handedly caused Sega's exit from the console market with vastly superior games and hardware.

I agree with the general premise of the post though. Sony and MS consoles have always been for casuals. The most popular games on the console are "movie games" where stories are told through cut scenes and gameplay consists of pushing buttons when the screen prompts you to (see stuff like Uncharted series, Last of Us, MGS IV, etc.). Shooters on consoles all have auto-aim. Platforming is dead on these consoles and mechanically challening games tend to sell poorly.

The only consoles for hardcore gamers are PC and Nintendo.

We do still have Nintendo and I consider the Switch to be a gamer's console with a focus on gameplay, but I agree with what you said about the industry in general. The industry definitely lost something special when Sega left the console market and since then Sony has unfortunately been leading the industry more and more in the direction of movie games over games that focus on fun gameplay.

Sega consoles were all about creativity and fun gameplay. You just put in the game, grab the controller, and you are instantly having fun without having to sit through an hour long tutorial and a million long cutscenes interrupting the illusion of gameplay where you push your control stick forward to walk to the next cutscene. F*** movie games; I'm so sick of them.

We at least still have Nintendo making consoles for us gamers that still value creativity and games with actual fun gameplay over games that try to be movies, but it's not enough and I do greatly miss Sega consoles.

@Micropixel: Boring. Next!

@Archangel3371: correct.

@stuff238 "Most Dreamcast games honestly suck. They were all “arcade” games/ports. Or weird mini games like seaman. Then a couple good fighting games and Shenmue/skies of Arcadia."

Seaman is not a mini game, it's actually very fleshed out but takes a long time to progress with. 'A few good fighting games'? I'd say it's fighting game library is better than the NeoGeo in quality if not quantity (which is by the way a significant quantity). Skies of Arcadia is mega dull and plays like sh*t and Shenmue is WAAAAY overrated. Like crazily. The quality overall though is not bad at all with very few real stinkers. Even the Angry Video Game Nerd said exactly that and he is a very tough critic (see his Seaman video).

@UssjTrunks "Nintendo had vastly superior games and hardware." On what terms? Because it's wouldn't be on technical or critical terms. Besides, it was Sony that was the real problem and SEGA being broke from doing NOTHING right inbetween the Genesis up until the DC (see 32x, SegaCD & Saturn stinky consoles). I also don't accept Nintendo make hardcore games. They are pretty much all cakewalks but they do have tight gameplay and controls you have to give them that.

Opinion ^

@jackamomo - I'm curious as to why you didn't dissect the game like to said you would. I'm assuming you haven't played it? It's certainly not the underdeveloped low-res pixel project you used to generalized the indie scene with.

It's also critically acclaimed across the board, sooo...

I agree that Sega was the most Forward thinking of the 1st party Companies.

I disagree with the notion that video gaming some how died.

Hell Dream Cast, a console I owned since day 1 wasn't even as good as the OG Xbox.

^ Has only played 2 indie games

@Micropixel: Is that the one where you run around with a torch? Well I watched a fair bit of gameplay and it look very long winded in terms of trekking about and combat was repeatedly shooting zombies with a torch or something and looks pretty clunky. So there. I have no intention of playing it as it looks pretty straight forward linear shooting things game to me but with ghosts. I wouldn't consider it an indy game though as looks like pretty high budget to me in full 3d with lots of expensive effects but what is the definition of indy?

@EG101 I'm not saying video gaming died, I'm saying risk died. As in, 'let's try something new' it's accepted that the budgets and corporate iron-grip does not have room for invention or risk nowadays. What is considered risky or daring these days would hardly turn a head in the 90's-00's. It's sad but the DC only lasted about 2-3 years which is criminal and all the quirky games in development that weren't shelved for it went over to the xbox which is why the OG xbox is considered the DC2 to alot of DC fans.

@UssjTrunks Yes, this is true. Also Super Meat Boy but it was boring.

Maybe the innovation hasn't been in Genres you enjoy but to some degree it's still there.

You Also need to take into consideration the fact that every year it gets more and more difficult to innovate as new ideas are created year in and year out. Add to that the cost of modern game development and you should understand why things are the way they are. It's less risky to innovate as an indie dev than as a AAA dev with the huge budgets those games command .

@davillain-: Who cares? I would love to see these forums return to glory, and if these newbies aren't just trolls...I say come on in!

Is this attitude helpful in any way? If you have no interest in the topic, wouldn't it be easier to just move on?

@dimebag667: I really was looking for a place to trash the SNES for being a piece of trash but it seems people have moved on when I'm still stuck. It's only recently I realised people actually thought that was a good console. ROFL!!!!

@EG101 "every year it gets more and more difficult to innovate as new ideas are created year in and year out"

I just have to disagree. When a new (good) idea comes out it kills it and sells millions and is followed by an avalanche of pretenders (dayz/minecraft: the 2 indy games I know or that are in any way relevant).

If an idea is strong it has longevity and 'wheels' and be moulded into lots of new titles such as the two above mentioned games. I mean how many minecraft/dayz rippoffs were there for the longest time in every possible permutation, it was getting silly at one point.

Then you have DOTA, a mod which is a simple idea but spawned tons of expensive AAA games but there just wasn't room for more than 2 DOTA's it seems.

I refute that new ideas come out every year and I think that's just because the culture of game development at the moment is f-ing lazy as f and if you use Unity you should kill yourself. There I said it indy dev's are lazy and unimaginative and AAA games are so safe as to bore you to tears. People think Saints Row is outrageous but it's just a GTA mod with shitty 'humour' like Deadpool.

Exactly! And this affects not only games, but music and movies as well. This world is boring.

There are still tons of good devs, musicians, and movies.

Devs: Nintendo, CDPR, Blizzard, and Valve (although them making new games is a rarity these days) pump out highly polished and innovative games. Bethesda and Rockstar aren't bad either.

Music: You need to look underground for good music, unfortunately. I'm into dance music, and the techno scene is still kicking (hasn't changed much from its heyday in the 90s).

Movies: Lots of great movies get released every year. I'd argue the level of quality has never been higher as technology has allowed directors to tell much bigger stories.

Just wanted to say thanks for all the comments, I wasn't sure if I would get much of a reaction but it's been pretty good considering how negative the topic is!

I think you have to look away from the mainstream to find originality these days and if you scour and research everything coming out there are some really nice games it's just the case that there are so many that only games with money behind them or 'hype' for some reason get pushed to the top and gain a momentum with thousands of quality smaller games just falling inbetween the cracks.

I think the truth is, there are too many games now and no-one can be expected to filter through them all so you only have the media to lead you... I'm actually talking about Steam here really. When it comes to modern new consoles, nothing has changed since 2005.

The movie industry is on it's ass but its funny. People buy a console because they want to play 1 game eg. the SNES for Street Fighter or go to the movies for one movie like Jurrasic Park but when you think about it, these industries are really just flagging along inbetween these 'events' which remind everyone they exist and otherwise exist on enthusiasts.

I think the video game industry needs a fresh lick of paint like when Sonic came out or Duck Hunt showed people what is fun about this medium. Something really has to shine and raise the medium to get people interested again because I can see people generally losing interest.

As for pop music. Forget it. Since BritPop and the excellent British 90's bands, the music industry has become so commercial it makes me want to run away to Tibet to find my soul again.

I'm sorry to say but the only real star on DC was Shenmue. Other games on it were just as generic as games on PS2 were.

Xbox was much better opponent to PS2 as it had genuinely good games that were superior to anything PS2 could give us.

For its time, the DC library was full of creative games, the very opposite of generic.

People that go on about the Dreamcast are pretty annoying. But they know this.

Dreamcast was like the bit in Rocky when he's doing shit and getting knocked down but Going The Distance starts playing.

@jackamomo: More like the last Sega console.

Look, I had fun with the Dreamcast, but most of its library was a bunch of arcade games with no substance. Could you imagine paying something like 60 dollars for a game like Chu Chu Rocket today? Absolutely not.

I feel the complete opposite.

I think that Shenmue is the most overrated Dreamcast game. In many ways, I feel like it helped influence the "movie games" of today which I do not consider to be a good thing.

The real stars on the Dreamcast were all of the creative gameplay focused games such as Chu Chu Rocket, Crazy Taxi, or Typing of the Dead which delivered atypical game design that was bizzare, challenging, and addictive with tons of charm. Games like that were the complete opposite of generic and are why the Dreamcast was a gamer's console for those that value gameplay.

Yes, I could.

Chu Chu Rocket is a charming, addictive game that is unlike any other game and has tons of replay value. We need more games like that nowadays. The same thing can be said about many other arcade games from the Dreamcast days as well.

You want to talk about no substance; I consider all of the "movie games" that are so popular today to lack substance where it really matters which is the gameplay. I'd much rather spend $60 on a game like Chu Chu Rocket than on most of today's AAA "movie games" that are all about production value but don't have anywhere near the charm, uniqueness, replay value, and addictive gameplay of Chu Chu Rocket.

I would love to see a new Chu Chu Rocket get released on the Switch. That would be great!