Playstation 4 Pro VS. Xbox One Scorpio

The frame rate could improve with additional CPU cores e.g. 6 CPU cores at 2.1 Ghz instead of 4 CPU cores at 2.3 Ghz.

@dynamitecop: Yeah and those PC's with a OC 390x are using a far better CPU than whatever will be in the Scorpio.

So its not going to be a 1:1 scale in performance when comparing PC vs Scorpio with similar GPU and Memory specs.

True dat. One year is a really long time especially in gaming. Gamers want what they want right now, and right now the PS4P is reasonably powerful at a great price alongside having a good library of games. Most people that don't live inside forums couldn't care less if it's 4.2TF or 10TF or whether it has a UHD drive, they just know there's a new more powerful PS4 and they'll buy it. Amazon preorders already show this to be the case...

The PS4P has been lighting up the charts, it's even beating the PS4 Slim.

At 4K resolution, it's more GPU bound than CPU bound.

ZEN LP 8 core at 2.1 Ghz ~= Core i7 Haswell quad core at 4 Ghz.

With Blender 3D, ZEN 8 core at 3 Ghz ~= Core i7 Broadwell-E 8 core at 3 Ghz. Slight edge for ZEN over Broadwell-E.

Intel plans to shift mainstream socket Core i7s with 6 cores e.g. 3.5 to 4 Ghz with 6 cores.

Even waiting the full year the Scorpio's performance over the Pro won't likely justify a possible $100 premium over the Pro. Sony could easily drop the price of the Pro to $349.99 by the time the Scorpio is released. Even by next year most will still be rocking 1080p displays and I think the Pro's boost in performance for 1080p users will be good enough.

What Ron said, resolution sparsely requires anything additional from the CPU, it draws almost all of its resources from the GPU, if they make the CPU overkill for 1080p, it will be perfectly fine for 4K.

Got any FPS performance charts to prove this?

BTW, we don't know if Scorpio will be using Zen in the first place. From what I understand they are bigger than Jaguar cores. APU's only have so much space. All we know is its an 8 Core CPU.

Pretty simple, do you want me to load the same save points in a game at 1920x1080 and 3200x1800 and see the CPU usage?

@dynamitecop: Sure

130 mm^2 for CPU/L3 cache/NB/SB is enough for a full 8 core ZEN + L3 cache + NB +SB.

At 28 nm, each ZEN core is about 3X the size of Jaguar's 3.1 mm^2 but at 14 nm/16 nm FinFET process tech, ZEN's size is around 4.5 mm^2,

@ronvalencia: Do you think they are taking out the eSRAM with the Scorpio? I guess if they do that they could possibly fit the bigger Zen cores.

Most likely yes.

For reference, as you can see in the photo below how much the 32MB's of SRAM takes up of the total die space of the XB1's 28nm based APU.

Here you go, CPU usage actually decreases.

Watch_Dogs 3200x1800 Ultra Settings

Watch_Dogs 1920x1080 Ultra Settings

The Witcher 3 3200x1800 Ultra Settings

The Witcher 3 1920x1080 Ultra Settings

@dynamitecop: I don't understand, why would CPU usage decrease? Stay the same maybe I could understand, but decrease doesn't make any sense to me.

The CPU is used less and less as the resolution increases and more of the overall processing is being handled by the GPU's.

It's just the way it work, it's the same situation in reverse where the more the resolution is lowered the more a game becomes CPU bound and the GPU's are used less.

It's a year for now.

13 months to worry if it gets delayed.

@dynamitecop: Does this have anything to do with GPGPU?

No.

@dynamitecop: I think it would be more logical that they would allow it but you have to pay for a bigger monthly subscription.

What is this in regards to?

@dynamitecop: I guess you're right. According to this benchmark:

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/msi-radeon-r9-390x-gaming-8g-oc-review,15.html

If it's over clocked it would hopefully reach at least 30 fps at 3840x 2160?

PS5's Backward Compatibility LOL

Cows will bite it anyway.

Well look at it this way, all those games they benched are pushed to their highest settings, when have consoles ever done that?

Console games always use a mix of settings, so it's completely rational to surmise that Scorpio will do the same and be able to do native 4K with shining colors.

Oh okay lol.

As resolution increases, there's a greater incidents that the CPU is waiting on the GPU to complete it's rendering tasks.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/powercolor-devil-r9-390x,4344-3.html

http://www.purepc.pl/karty_graficzne/doom_z_api_vulkan_wybuchowy_test_wydajnosci_kart_graficznych?page=0,9

After really looking at all of this stuff, it's clear to tell that Microsoft really did their research in targeting 6 Teraflops.

MS has researched both GPU and memory bandwidth requirements for brute force 4K/30 fps targets.

If there was another memory pool, MS would added 32 MB ESRAM + 384 bit memory bandwidths and the result would be 524 GB/s range like XBO's PR.

32 MB is not enough for 1080p let alone 4K frame buffer.

64 MB is not enough for 4K frame buffer.

16 nm or 14 nm FinFET ZEN core is slightly larger than 28 nm Jaguar core.

@ronvalencia: What are the theoretical performance gains for Zen over Jaguar core?

With theoretical...

On programmer's GPR(General Purpose Registers), ZEN (2X 16 GPRs per thread) is 2X over Jaguar(1X 16 GPRs per thread).

On decode X86 instruction issue per cycle rate, ZEN is 2X over Jaguar.

On integer units count, ZEN is 2X over Jaguar.

On load instructions per cycle rate, ZEN is 2X over Jaguar.

On FPU/SIMD units count, ZEN (2 128bit FADD, 2 128bit FMUL) is 2X over Jaguar(1 128bit FADD, 1 128bit FMUL).

On instruction retire per cycle rate, ZEN (8) is 4X over Jaguar(2).

ZEN is the first AMD CPU with macro-op cache (translated RISC instruction cache). This reduces the pressure on decoders. Intel Core series already has this feature.

ZEN has pipeline depth of ~14. Jaguar has pipeline depth of 14.

Bulldozer/Piledriver/Steamroller has pipeline depth of ~20 i.e. it's Pentium IV Northwood level. The fools at AMD made a f**king Pentium 4 like solution.

ZEN's basic design stems from Jaguar.

AMD Bulldozer ~= Intel Pentium 4 Northwood but with only 2 instruction issues per cycle rate per thread. Piledriver reached 5 Ghz at retail hence the long pipeline.

Somebody at AMD wants a f**king PPE (dual instruction issue per cycle) like CPU with out-of-order processing. AMD Engineers/Marketing who pushed for Bulldozer design needs to be fired.

IBM PPE also has ~20 stage pipeline.

@alozi:

PS4 PRO :

• Great entry price
• Price will get better till Scorpio release
• Amazing exclusives that wont find elsewhere
• Great specs overall for its price
• Benefits not only for 4K users but 1080p ones as well with better graphical fidelity and/or fps
• Its a SONY product , you know youll be getting great VALUE with great exclusives every year out of PS4 / PRO

SCORPIO

• High price , way more than PS4 PRO ( At least 100$ difference if not more on its release )
• Best console power wise on the market on release and the most powerful console ever made hands down
• Exclusives with one way or another will end up on PC / Windows 10
• 4K Blu -ray only on Scorpio which makes it ideal as 4K player/console combo
• Better 4K performance if publishers/developers wish to Vs PS4 PRO on 3rd parties

Now its up to you to decide , thats what we know thus far. Personally ill go with PS4 PRO because of VALUE , either talking the price of the system or talking about exclusives.

But if someone doesnt care about PS4s exclusives / $$ / exclusives in general or dont own a decent PC and all ... Scorpio will be a beast.

We dont know how much Scorpio will be.

If it contains a 480x it wont be that much.

@tdkmillsy: I can easily see the Scorpio being priced at $449.99 with the Pro possibly dropping to $349.99 come late 2017. If Microsoft plans to try and outsell the Pro than they have to price the Scorpio more competitively, so $399.99 would be a good idea if Microsoft can afford to possibly take a small loss, or at best break even at that price.

Honestly, I think unless Sony makes some kind of huge mistake Microsoft won't ever be able to outsell them. Generations as we know it are now over with, so its really Sony's market from here on out.

@AzatiS: PS4 Pro having a year head start and with a solid price point pretty much guarantees the Scorpio won't be able to outsell it. Sure, Scorpio will be noticeably more powerful, but I don't think its a big enough leap to persuade enough people to wait for the Scorpio instead of purchasing the PS4 Pro this year. Then again, perhaps Microsoft's goal with the Scorpio isn't necessarily to try and outsell the PS4/PS4 Pro, but maybe instead the Scorpio was created with the intentions of helping rebuild Xbox's brand reputation.

IF that was only the problem for Microsoft. There are plenty of reasons why someone to favor PRO than SCORPIO than just the price.

The only thing that can make SCOPRIO appealing is if developers/publishers decide to provide way better performance on 4K , which is a possibility , so MS start the performance war , similar to what SONY did with PS4 all this time , which again is a high possibility.

@AzatiS: I can see that, but we are in a similar boat as PS2 vs OG Xbox. OG Xbox came out a year later and was a lot more powerful than the PS2, but that wasn't enough to come close to even making a dent into the PS2's sales. I realize the Xbox brand was just getting started at that point, but it kinda proves that power by itself isn't usually enough for people to jump ship from one ecosystem to another. Things will be very interested come late 2017.

I agree ...

Microsoft the last 2 console entries trying to compete in a wrong way as i said numerous times before for years now. It seems i was on point once again.

For example , Wii was a success because of gimmick controls .. so MS decided to make their own gimmick controls console which backfired.

Now the last few years , SONY playing the performance/power game not because PS4 was THAT powerful to begin with but because X1 was underpowered because of the motion controls decicion ..

MS falling into a trap once again. Since PS4 success is great , lets make an even more powerful console because that what PS4 main marketing is .. WROOONG move ...

Thats totally ridiculous from marketing stand point and i dont see going too well once again except if they offer Scoprio on a very appealing price on day 1.

@AzatiS: Price is going to be key with the Scorpio, especially if the Pro turns out to be relatively successful.

I Agree .I cant see other way for Scorpio to be competitive other than an attractive price for masses. Something like 399$ or lower as a start price.

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@quadknight said:

@emgesp said:

@quadknight said:

@emgesp said:

I preordered pro because of price, games and performance ratio. Also, it helps that its coming out this year. Scorpio will be great for those that don't like Sony exclusives, but I have to ask will a 40% increase in performance be worth waiting for a full year and possibly at a higher cost?

Of course it won't Which is why the Scorpio will only appeal to people that are already invested in the Xbox ecosystem. Everyone else will either get a PS4P or keep their existing PS4s.

Yeah, I mean if the Scorpio was 2x better than PS4 Pro then I could totally understand people wanting to wait a full year for better performance, but I really don't see why people just don't get a Pro when in reality both will be upscaling to 4K from lower resolutions anyways as not even the Scorpio will be powerful enough to run most AAA games at native 4K either.

True dat. One year is a really long time especially in gaming. Gamers want what they want right now, and right now the PS4P is reasonably powerful at a great price alongside having a good library of games. Most people that don't live inside forums couldn't care less if it's 4.2TF or 10TF or whether it has a UHD drive, they just know there's a new more powerful PS4 and they'll buy it. Amazon preorders already show this to be the case...

The PS4P has been lighting up the charts, it's even beating the PS4 Slim.

Check it now it dropping like crazy, should have stayed number 1 for at least a couple weeks. Probably most of the sales are Ebay sellers.

@AzatiS: I'm not to sure its only about price, Microsoft have a plan to combine Windows 10 with console more. If that means the Windows store or more PC games come to Scorpio, that could be a unique selling point that is different to price.

That right there might be another problem for MS.

Ill give you an example :

The Power user that is willing to give 499$ or more for scorpio , with that amount of money will be able to buy a high end GPU for his PC , and i bet in a year from now Nvidia 1080 might be cheaper since newer cards will be out.

With that in mind and the fact that Xbox exclusives finding their way on PC with one way or another why the power user to not end up being a PC gamer since will be getting more raw power which translates to better versions of the same games will find on Scorpio plus everything else ( better versions of same 3rd party games , PS NOW to be able to play PS3 games and everything else PC is well known for ).

They need to advertise from very early how all games will look way better ( 3rd parties ) on SCORPIO and keep the price really competitive on release , otherwise majority of people wont even be bothered with SCORPIO and go out there buy either a NEW GPU for their PC or NEO for total VALUE.

MS needs to play this right marketing wise BEFORE scorpio gets a release or i see PRO get an irriversible momentum here.

Titan X Pascal didn't cause 1080's price to decrease. As long AMD is missing in action for 1080 to Titan X Pascal segments, NVIDIA will continue milk it's customers.

Scorpio may have the following equivalent parts

CPU: 8 core ZEN LP at 2.1 Ghz

GPU: RX-485/RX-580 with 384 bit memory bus. This SKU replaces year 2016's RX-480. Reason: PS4 Pro's GPU solution was based from year 2016's Polaris 10, hence logic tells Scorpio's GPU solution is based from year 2017's RX-485 or RX-580 which is RX-480's replacement.

Memory: 12 GB GDDR5-6700 unified

Optical drive: UHD blu-ray drive

Storage: 500 GB

Price: $499

Note that Scorpio's APU size is similar to XBO's APU.

VS

PCPartPicker part list: http://pcpartpicker.com/list/ztv28K

Price breakdown by merchant: http://pcpartpicker.com/list/ztv28K/by_merchant/

CPU: Intel Core i5-6400T 2.2GHz Quad-Core OEM/Tray Processor ($163.95 @ Amazon)

CPU Cooler: Thermaltake CLP0556-B 39.7 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($8.99 @ SuperBiiz)

Motherboard: ECS H110M-C3D (1.0) Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($50.98 @ Newegg)

Memory: Crucial Ballistix Elite 8GB (1 x 8GB) DDR3-2133 Memory ($40.98 @ Newegg)

Memory: Crucial Ballistix Elite 4GB (1 x 4GB) DDR3-2133 Memory ($23.98 @ Newegg)

Storage: Hitachi Ultrastar 500GB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($34.50 @ Amazon)

Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB GAMING Video Card ($249.99 @ SuperBiiz)

Case: Rosewill FBM-02 MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($24.99 @ Newegg)

Power Supply: EVGA 430W 80+ Certified ATX Power Supply ($24.89 @ OutletPC)

Optical Drive: Lite-On iHOS104-06 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Drive ($31.98 @ Newegg) //Not a UHD Blu-ray drive

Total: $655.23

Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available

Generated by PCPartPicker 2016-09-12 09:47 EDT-0400

Even before it's birth, Scorpio stung PSBore Amature and it's already on life support. The end is nigh.... :P

@rrjim1: How is it dropping like crazy? Its still tracking higher than any other console currently.

Scorpio - Since I love the idea of cross-buy and it has more power.

My point is that you're getting much better performance from the Pro for an extra $50 compared to the Xbox One S. Waiting a year for a console is odd at this point considering the PS4 Pro is an upgraded PS4, not a PS5, which means there could be a PS4 Pro + or even PS5 in a couple of years that provides 2-3x performance over PS4 Pro. What exactly is the cut off for waiting? Waiting without context of what's in play makes no sense. The Pro could be $150 cheaper than Scorpio with a big back catalog of 4K games by the time it's released.

Q: Would you take a PS4 Pro at $350 or Scorpio at $500 (in 2017) knowing what you know about both? This is just so we understand where you stand as a buyer.

Not bad picks for a great low end PC right there BUT , in a year , when Scorpio is about to release there is a high chance with 655 to be able to make a fat better PC than this.

Now my logic is that with power users in mind , officially , those users ALREADY owning a PC. Majority of them even because we all know a power user that urge for power is above everything else a PC gamer. So a PC gamer with already a decent rig , not necessarily crazy shit , with a new GPU of 1080 equivalent will destroy Scorpio in raw power.

My rig as it is now , with a 1080 on i think can manage to surpass Scorpio except if scorpio offer in the end 16 GB of system RAM and more TFLOPS. So why to even think to buy a scorpio when i could easily play all its games in overall better quality by buying a high end card for my PC in 2017 wihtout change any other part ? Doesnt make any sense to me and i think the same case will be with all other power users out there.

MS should change their marketing asap or this wont end well.

My thoughts, too. MS has been doing awesome in terms of fan-feedback and features, but they still haven't addressed my concern for software later in the Bone's lifecycle.