@SecretPolice: The Scorpio will be expensive, count on it. I'm a console guy but if 4k is important to you, may be cheaper to get a PC. Most folks don't own 4k TVs. I just bought a smart TV last year. It's not 4k. Why should I buy a new one so soon? 4k is not that important to gameplay for me.
It wouldn't be expensive as Vega 11 replaces Polaris 10's price segment.
So what's Captain Ron's best guess at the price of admission for Scorpio?
Vega 11 replaces Polaris 10, hence it's price range. PS4 Pro's GPU was based from Polaris 10.
Scorpio's 12 GDDR5-6700 chips* and PS4 Pro's 8 GDDR5-7000 chips are well known i.e. extra ~$30 at retail e.g the difference between 4 GB RX-480 vs 8 GB RX-480 for GDDR-8000 chips.
**Most likely from GDDR5-7000 grade chips.
12 GDDR5-6700 chips = 321 GB/s.
The wild card is the new 8 core CPU at laptop clock speeds. Laptop ZEN parts replace both laptop Puma and Excavator CPU IP blocks. AMD could config ZEN as a new "Duron" for Scorpio i.e. cut-down L3 cache for reduce cost and it's not running big desktop apps.
Puma = updated Jaguar with power consumption improvements and higher clock speeds.
Your knowledge of all the tech is cool and all but I ask again, in dollars & cents please, what's your guess at the Price of Scorpio when released?
Curious minds want to know. :P
I know is good PR for your own product, but it will back fire when massive games don't hit naive 4K with 6 TF and you know it will happened.
All GPUs has limits.
When a game has 4K/60 fps with Vega 10's 12 TFLOPS 32bit FP, Vega 11 at 6 TFLOPS 32bit FP would be at 4K/30 fps.
Vega has double rate for 16 bit FP which turns 6 TFLOPS 32bit FP into 12 TFLOPS 16 bit FP.
Titan X pascal (GF102) and GTX 1080 (GP104) doesn't have double rate for 16 bit FP processing while GP100 has 2X booster for 16 bit FP.
http://pixeljudge.com/news/nvidia-titan-x-pascal-first-benchmarks/
In the same way as GM200, GP102 simply cut those parts of the chip. While GP100 has FP16 (half-precision) at 200% compared FP32, FP16 performance in GP102 is just 1.5% of FP32 performance. Essentially FP16 and FP64 in Titan X are just for code compatibility, just like in other Pascal GeForce cards
http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/amd-vega-10-vega-20-and-vega-11-gpus-mentioned-by-cto.html
The start of the "Vega" will happen with will be called the Vega 10 (codename) GPU, a series to compete with Nvidias more high-end gear. It's mentioned that this GPU has 64 Compute Units, multiply that with 64 shader processors per cluster and you'll get to 4096 shader processors. It will offer up to 24 TFLOP/s 16-bit (half-precision) floating point performance. You read it right, half-precision.
Lacking 16bit FP double rate feature, Titan X Pascal (GP102) is already obsolete by Vega 10. NVIDIA needs GP100.
If a single frame render is 50 percent 16bit FP and 50 percent 32bit FP, at the same clock speed, Vega 11 with 36 CU would processed 16bit FP at half the time i.e. 30 percent faster than Polaris 10 36 CU. If Polaris 10 has 25 fps at 4K, Vega 11 would have pushed it over 31.25 fps.
If a single frame render is 75 percent 16bit FP and 25 percent 32bit FP, at the same clock speed, Vega 11 with 36 CU would processed 16bit FP at half the time i.e. 61 percent faster than Polaris 10 36 CU. If Polaris 10 has 25 fps at 4K, Vega 11 would have pushed it over 40 fps.
For 6 TFLOPS 32bit FP, Vega 11 at 36 CU would need 1300Mhz clock speed.
At each CU level, Vega is the true generation jump from current GCNs. i.e. it's worth the wait.
If Vega 11's 32 active CU with 4 disabled CU for yield issues, 1465 Mhz x 32 CU = 6 TFLOPS.
He is probably right. I really don't think that this "PS4 Pro" can give you a true 4K gaming experience. None of these consoles can. It's honestly going to be a total rip-off. In order to see what true 4K gaming is like, than you need to turn to PC gaming. Just saying... :)
PC gaming with equal or greater than $345 GPU has an install base similar to Wii U after 3 years.
4K is just 3840 × 2160 resolution.
The old R9-390X Hawaii XT can still fight the latest Pascal.
GTX 1060 3GB VS RX 470 4GB: Forza Horizon 3 PC Benchmarks (Look at 5:00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0XejmBCuEk
Min:
EVGA GTX 1060 3GB : 14.8
Sapphire RX 470 : 37.79
Avg:
EVGA GTX 1060 3GB : 44.53
Sapphire RX 470 : 49.7
Max :
EVGA GTX 1060 3GB : 64.5
Sapphire RX 470 : 75.33
Forza Horizon 3 [PC] - 8GB vs 16GB RAM - Performance Comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvHm7dChmac
Based from Scorpio's SoC size, one can make an estimate i.e. the large Vega 10 is unlikely for Scorpio i.e. 1.7X Polaris 10's 232 mm^2 = 412 mm^2
Math for Vega 10
64 CU / 36 CU = 1.7X scale.
1.7X scale x 232 mm^2 = 412 mm^2 estimate.
Vega 11 replaces Polaris 10 i.e. note the stream processor count.
Scorpio's 6 TFLOPS 32 Bit FP is half of Vega 10's 12 TFLOPS 32 bit FP.
For RGBA16F handling, Vega includes the new 2X 16bit FP booster design which could tilt the balance between reaching and failing 30 fps at 4K.
Polaris already has native 16 bit FP handling without 2X booster feature i.e. a half gen jump design.
The purpose for native 16 bit FP processing is to reduce memory bandwidth and register file loads.
Vega evolved Polaris's 16bit FP handling with sub-element vector-2 on 32 bit ALU i.e. two 16bit FP SIMD on 32 bit ALU, hence 2X boost in 16 bit FP processing.
NVIDIA GP100/Tegra X1/X2 already has 2X 16bit FP booster design.
PS4 Pro's 2.3X over PS4 falls within AMD's 2.5X perf/watt road map.
Vega's 4X perf/watt over PS4's 1.83 TFLOPS yields 7.32 TFLOPS and Scorpio's 6 TFLOPS is close to Vega's 4X perf/watt.
Vega 11 seems to be Scorpio's GPU build with it's worst working chip yield around 6 TFLOPS instead of Polaris 10's worst working chip yield of 4.9 TFLOPS for RX-470. Vega 11 effectively replaces Polaris 10.
For Scorpio, MS waited for AMD's medium size GPU chip to reach 6 TFLOPS with good yields.
Scorpio with Polaris 10 at 6 TFLOPS target would have terrible working chip yields.
ZEN replaces Puma and Excavator in the AMD's laptop segments in H2 2017.
FX-8800P APU's two Excavator modules(4 threads) + 8 CU GPU has about 15 watts TDP.
Scorpio's CPUs will NOT have desktop PC's high clock speed.
FX-8800P APU's CPU has a base clock speed of 2.1 Ghz.
Wrong conclusion. There are 4 Vega GPUs.
1. Vega 10. Fury X replacement
2. Vega 11. Polaris 10 replacement
3. Vega 10 2X, Fury Duo replacement
4. Vega 20 (year 2018). 7 nm FinFET version of Vega 10. It's seems "Vega 20" would serves as Polaris 10's role for 7 nm FinFET while the later NAVI 10 and 11 are the proper 7 nm FinFET designs.
7 nm FinFET has 2X the density hence making Vega 10 size chip into Polaris 10 size chip. Scorpio will not have Vega 20 nor Vega 10.
Your view on a single VEGA chip is stupid.
Vega replaces old SKUs from top to bottom.
The prototype for Polaris 10 with two GPUs seems to be dead.
Both MS and Sony has concluded AMD's year 2016 IP blocks are half gen jump and Microsoft waited for AMD's 2017 IP blocks to be available.
At 4K, it's more GPU bound than CPU bound. There are game benchmarks that shows 2.5 Ghz Core i7 delivering similar frame rates to 4 Ghz version.
Both MS and Sony has access to AMD's road maps.
You have accepted that PS4 Pro's 2.3X over PS4 which follows AMD's 2.5X perf/watt claims while rejected Vega's 4X perf/watt claim. You're a hypocrite.
PS; Sony has stated PS5 may not exist and "PS4" will continue to evolved e.g. 7 nm FinFET Vega 20** in 2019. The year difference between 2013 to 2016 is 3 years. The year difference between 2016 to 2019 is another 3 years.
Vega 10's estimated 412 mm^2 size chip in 7 nm FinFET would be around 206 mm^2.
Game console's GPU sizes are around 180 mm^2 (X360) to 250 mm^2(PS3 RSX) in size.
Both Xbox and PlayStation jumped on X86 PC hardware and expect constant evolution. Live with it.
1-You are assuming period without no proof as the soc hasn't even been shown.
2-MS didn't wait MS was catch off guard and will pay for it when scorpios power fail to move units just like the original xbox failed vs the PS2.
There is no point on waiting an extra year to get a 6TF GPU when stronger ones already exist.
3-Ultra is more stressful on the CPU than medium or high because the extra stuff being render which also has be be drawn,while 4k is a bigger hit on the GPU Ultra renders many more details which tax the GPU as there is extra details being drawn.
4-320GB/s is not all GPU is shared and you will be quoted when MS confirms it,you also be quoted when the Scorpio fail to render all games at 4k.
1. SOC has been shown.
2. Both MS (Phil Spencer) and Sony has concluded AMD's year 2016 IP blocks are half-gen jumps. Phil Spencer doesn't want a half-gen jump.
http://www.gamepur.com/news/23460-massive-ps4-neo-leak-gpu-2x-more-powerful-high-clock-speed-55tf-price-499.html
Both MS and Sony has access to "NEO Option B" level hardware.
Both MS and Sony has access to the same AMD multi-year road map.
MS wasn't catch off guard.
6 TFLOPS with 320 GB/s BW + memory compression is the minimum for PC's 4K.
3. Most PC's Ultra settings has minor visual quality gain with large GPU resource consumption.
4. Stop being a hypocrite. DF has shown PS4 with shared memory yielding similar results to PC's R7-265 results.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-we-built-a-pc-with-playstation-neo-gpu-tech
PS4 has zero copy.
PC with greater total system bandwidth has memory copy wastage.
You are not factoring PC's PCI-E 16X version 3.0's two way 16GB/s links into GPU card which acts like PS4's CPU into GPU + memory pool.
You have not factored in the purpose for having a CPU cache i.e. lower main memory access incidents.
@tormentos:
Movie playing features don't really matter, per se. It's the fact that Sony's yet to be released "Pro" system lacks features that even the lowly Xbox S has. lol.
Console exclusives have always been a thing for MS and lemmings. Nothing has changed. Exclusives mean jack shit this gen. By Sony's own admission the majority of their exclusives are sales flops and LOSE MONEY. lollol.
The next playstation will be up to 50% weaker than it's Xbox competition. Baseline 35%. Quote me MS will bring it.
Weren't you the one saying PS4Poo was the equivalent of the XBO S before you knew Sony was dropping a slim? And you think they're getting an RX 480 clocked @ 1300MHz in the Scorpio with what you're praying is a gimped Jag. More chuckles at your expense.
@SecretPolice:
He told you, he's just cryptic like that. He said Vega will have a mid-range SKU that replaces Polaris 10. That puts it at similar BoM as the NEO. It's up in the air whether they'll have an affordable Zen CPU with reduced L3 cache. So same price due to the economy of scale offered by leading with a UHD BD-drive in the XBO S. $399-449.
FX-8800p APU's Excavator CPU modules doesn't have Piledriver CPU's L3 cache.
Reduce L3 cache Intel G4400 Pentium Skylake has similar gaming performance as other Intel Core series Skylakes.
http://www.legitreviews.com/intel-pentium-g4400-processor-review-skylake_179724
Intel G4400 = budget Skylake.
The benefits for higher price Intel Core i5 and i7 series GPUs are running desktop applications.
For ZEN, AMD will offer competitive price to Intel's budget Skylakes.
From https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_1060_Gaming_X_3_GB/
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