Has PC gaming set back gaming a decade?

1. The F2P and P2P ones are subjective. WoW is one of the greatest games of all time. There are some insanely good F2P games as well.

2. Mandatory Subscriptions to just play ANYTHING online period, and shitty online at that (XBL/PSN), is a much worse trend than P2P MMOs.

3. DLC and sliced up games is a much worse trend.

4. Didn't Micro-transactions started on mobile phones? If not you're right about 1 thing at least.

WoW was amazing. It's a dead horse now.

But Subscription games are dead too. So why complain about them as a shitty trend when they aren't a trend anymore, and when they WERE a trend there was several good ones that spit out insane amounts of content?

Oh and FF is amazing, and, EQ, COH were also amazing.

There are F2P games that are better than their full $60-170 retail purchases in every way - like Warframe vs Destiny1 and 2. Or POE vs DIII.

Way too opinionated of a post, those aren't bad trends by default in any means.

Except they are not free, and you lose them....

I can do the same on PC with Humble bundle... get more games..... and actually keep them.

I didn't make the complaint about WoW.

God this place is weird. Only on SW can the shitty blight that is modern AAA, often argued to "skip" PC, also be blamed on PC

Like always most of the replies are from Zaryia.

Sony marketing works well it seems.

Always amazes me how people can twist there brain around limited budget pc boxes being better then the real thing.

Yes.

@zaryia:

1. More content is better that's a fact. Even if some if those F2P games may be good the practice of locking content behind a pay wall started on PC.

2. You keep saying the online is shitty but it's as reliable as any PC service not to mention all the free games i get and massive discounts off titles.

3. PC started DLC and sliced up games. The PC had games with expansions in the 90s.

4. Nope but mobile has embraced it and I think most would agree mobile is the shittiest platform.

1. Opinion: Several F2P and P2P games have more content than B2P games. This was a completely subjective point. I do not consider F2P and P2P as a negative trend and some of my absolute favorite games this gen are those 2 payment models. You should have wrote IMO.

2. Fact Check. Console started the trend of payed online. PC online is far superior and free, but thats a debate for a different thread.

3. Fact Check. Consoles started the cutting up of games into little DLCs to be released shortly after. Expansion packs of PC games are the size of full fledged games and came out much later, not shortly after. They did not take away from the main game. What we get as DLC now used to be free content patches for PC until consoles turned it into a payed thing. PC gamers laughed at DLC when compared to their expansions. This is certainly a console trend.

P.S. Developers are trying to do the same with mods now. Free on PC for now, slowly monetizing. Like with content patches.

4. If you say so. What PC game was it?

It's either this or we all can deal with a dead forum all together. We all know SW lost a lot of good posters but I rather take a crappy poster then a dead forum all together.

Did you all just forget that game demos have existed for decades?

The occasional flop has nothing to do with modern restructuring to early access. It has to do with shit devs being shit.

And I also remembering getting lots of Demos when my video game magazine comes in the mailbox, Demos were a huge thing to advertising games but for some strange reasons, developers are scared to even let gamers test out a game before it releases now. If Developers have the balls making a better quality games and not rushed out the door, this wouldn't be a problem nowadays.

System Wars not Fanboy Wars.

Hahaha. Okay, so you're basing your entire argument on a small probability? You may want to go to debate school for a bit.

Until console games could be patched, there was an absolute necessity for a game to be complete and functional on day 1. Where patches began is irrelevant.

The best open world game is generally split between Red Dead and BOTW.

The best 3D platformer is split between Astro Bot and Odyssey, but most people that have tried both seem to prefer Astro Bot.

The best racing game is generally split between Mario Kart 8, Forza Horizon 4, and Wipeout VR.

Smash probably will be the best fighting game, I agree.

Metroid has very tough competition so I'd imagine it to be unlikely now that VR is here and with Doom 2016 + Eternal on the roadmap.

As for PC, it will be a big force for moving the industry forward in the next 5 years even if the last 5 haven't lived up to the early 2000s or 90s.

No argument, got it.

Yea I guess my windows 10 will stop working when Microsoft goes under.

That is the equivalent of your dogshit.

Yet i'll continue to be a member of PSN and XBOX live so we're at a standstill.

What's he supposed to argue against? There is as much chance of Sony or Nintendo going under as there is Valve. What would you do if Sony, Nintendo or MS went under and you had no access to your digital library on those platforms?

Should Valve get into a position where they had to shut down Steam, then all games will be released from the Steam platform. This issue was raised by Steam users and addressed by Valve many, many years ago. What guarantees have the console manufacturers given for their downloadable content?

Fallout 76 is shit because Bethesda is a shit developer.

PC gaming has been constantly pushing gaming forwards, and has many different markets within it's wide breadth. Not every PC game is an indie 2D side-scroller, nor are the crowd-sourced, nor are they technical power-houses of graphical achievements. There is a little of everything.

But I wouldn't expect nothing less than broad generalizations from a Trumpette.

Except again you’re dense and can’t figure out he’s saying FO76 is a product of these things.

As in since PC games are half assed half the time it’s trickled into AAA and more what normally should be a quality title.

I feel like I’m a kindergarten teacher sometimes.

That's what offline backups are for.

And GOG.

You're a sensitive soul aren't you?

Skyrim was a masterpiece.

Bullshit conspiracy theory.

He's right.

@zaryia:

1. You disagree with having more content in your games? Weird perhaps that's why the F2P model has worked so well for PC gamers. You like getting screwed?

2. Nope.. PC started the monthly subscriptions with things like Ultima Online and EQ far before PSN and XBL existed. That is a fact

3. Nope the DLC trend only happened because of the rise of Digital media. PC started the whole expansion craze. This is a fact. And expansions never had as much content as a full game. Diablo 2 added 2 characters and one level, SC 2 added a small campaign and one race. I personally don't mind DLC as long as its quality content but this started on the PC.

4. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usgamer.net/amp/the-history-of-gaming-microtransactions-from-horse-armor-to-loot-boxes

Started with Oblivion on PC and 360. So Microsoft is much to blame which is one of the key pillars of the PC platform.

@blackhairedhero: I think you make valid historical points, but

"Diablo 2 added 2 characters and one level, SC 2 added a small campaign and one race"

This is really shady summary. Diablo 2 and SC2 had enormous expansions. Your summary is very misleading, making these sound like tiny poor value additions.

You may be right that PC provided the foundation for DLC. Of course it did - we had hard drives when consoles (with exception of some clever workarounds for Genesis carts) just could not expand our update their product post release. But by the same token, PC provided expansions. Wonderful, huge expansions. And patches.

@xantufrog: Realize I have no issues with quality expansions. And although those were not bad expansions they were not worthy of being a full game. Zaryia acted like consoles started the DLC trend though and that's not true. DLC is just the modern version of expansion. Shitty DLC is not the fault of either the PC or console platform but more from developers doing a half assed job.

@blackhairedhero: i agree, nickel and diming with DLC is the pits

At least I'm not a fragile snowflake.

Calmer than you are.

I'm not arguing against it because it's a huge deflection. He lost the initial argument, and now he's trying to gain ground by delving into unlikely scenarios. What if the world exploded right now? Then none of this would matter. His stupid "what ifs" are just the remnants of a battle that he lost.

You made a shit comparison and lost.

There are benefit to the paid online model.

Get over it. Go buy your 5002th H1Z1 clone.

@davillain-: That's why im thankful to cup, Zarya and ghost. With how they post, they alway get replies.

See, and now the salt is pouring out. Lol

PC is the "home of monthly subscriptions", yet you're the one paying the ransom every month for your own internet and renting games you can't choose.

MS is the one who started paid DLC on Xbox, not PC.

"Many original Xbox Live titles, including Splinter Cell, Halo 2, and Ninja Gaiden, offered varying amounts of extra content, available for download through the Xbox Live service. Most of this content, with the notable exception of content for Microsoft-published titles, was available for free.^[4]"

I'm as calm as the Buddha, I'm not sure why you would get another impression?

No, all it did was prove you have a PC but still whine on a forum.

If you want to see examples of gaming being held back, just look to the shit hardware and standards applied to what were once quality games as they sell out to console, fail and die.

PC does everything. Alpha/beta/crowd sourcing is an addition, not a replacement.

1. Again with your opinions. Depending on the title F2P and P2P games have as much, if not more content than several big B2P games. For example Warframe has far more content than D1 or D2. PoE has more content than Diablo III. Both are completely free.....The two big P2P games WoW and FF probably have more content than any game period. These are not negative trends by any objective mark.

2. Nope. XBL started mandatory payment model for entire online platforms. PC did not start this trend for consoles. PC has never even had platform wide online payment, how could it have started it? Lmao!

3. Nope. Consoles started sliced up release DLCs, or tiny weapon and armor packs. PC expansions were never THAT small or quick. Those 2 expansions you mentioned came FAR after launch and still had decent content. Several PC expansions at the time were humongous, and at times even bigger than console games.

4. Your own link says micro-transactions started with Oblivion for XBL, which was BGS first big console departure. It also pins the blame of Online Passes and Season Passes to mostly console oriented titles. Lootboxes were PC, I'll concede to that.

So the tally for things that are bad no matter how you look at it,

PC:

• Lootboxes

Consoles:

• Season Pass.
• Online Pass.
• Gutted Release DLC.
• Platform-wide online payment.
• Micro-transactions.
• Payed mods.

Nah, consoles are just behind by a decade.

I would say all of that is the advancement of gaming. PC is the cutting edge of both hardware and software development; it is an open platform, where new ideas are not only encouraged and developed, but celebrated and enjoyed.

But they can't all be winners, regardless of platform. But at least on PC we can say "Well, they tried their best, better than not trying at all". On console you generally have some suit going "Nope. Won't sell. We don't want you to try".

Won't happen, too big to fail.

Plus, Steam is privately owned, not pubicly traded; it is not beholden to shareholders, the market. As long as it is profitable it will be fine.

And should the worst happen, then it will get snatched up by someone else and we will still have access to the games. This is true of all platforms, though.

EIther way I am not worried.

It's whoever is buying them on every system.

NES and N64. Two most influential consoles, and by far

I like how PC bash threads has no real arguments made against the system lol

@zaryia: 1. D1 and D2 do you mean Destiny? Destiny is a shit show hardly the standard for console gaming. And WoW is a money trap in which each of those expansions had to be bought and paid for. It didn't go F2p till recently. The PC's largest game is F2P with little content.

2. Again PC started monthly online subscriptions. EQ and Ultima online existed far before PSN and XBL. The monthly fees associated with platform related services are not just for online gaming unlike MMO subscription fees.

3. Again facts are not on your side. PC was doing expansions in the 90s before it was even possible on consoles. This is a fact that any gamer over the age of 20 knows this

4. Betheda and MS started it which were two PC centric companies. Started by pillars of the PC platform and to this day it is where PC gaming makes the vast majority of its revenue.

I removed the subjective and false statements regarding F2P and P2P. There are F2P/P2P have some of the absolute most content of any game period, especially any movie game. If I wanted to be subjective I could pad my console list with opinionated shit too. Trust me it would be a mile long.

1. Straw-Man trying to trick other posters. That's not what I said. PC did not start PLATFORM-WIDE monthly online subscriptions. Here is my original statement:

Mandatory Subscriptions to play ANYTHING online period.

That directly started and took off with XBL. THIS IS A FACT.

2. PC's old Expansion Packs were not pre-release/pre-purchase DLC or shitty weapon packs. Don't insult me and conflate the two. One didn't directly lead to the other. That SPECIFIC kind of shit-head DLC content directly started and took off for and on consoles.

I'm discussing which platforms directlystarted and nurtured the negative trends. IE: It's asinine to state PC is at fault for PSN having a monthly fee. That would be XBL and MS, which objectively started it.

PC:

• Lootboxes

Consoles:

• Season Pass.
• Online Pass.
• Gutted Release DLC.
• Platform-wide online payment.
• Micro-transactions. (Bethesda and MS got together to do this on XBL, PC gamers just downloaded that shit from modding sites).
• Payed mods.

Fallout 76 is the end result of Bethesda handing the reigns over to Todd Howard. Even if developers weren't flocking to alphas, they'd still be pulling this crap. Also, I don't really see the problem with alphas. Enthusiasts get early access, developers get free bug testing, and Steam gets to hype new releases. What's the problem?