Election Night 2021: Youngkin (R) beats McAuliffe (D) in Virginia, Murphy (D) bearly beats Ciattarelli (R) in NJ.

Nope. Going by intent. As the Hofeller files show, legislators often intentionally oppress minorities without explicitly mentioning race.

Would you not agree that intentionally oppressing minorities is racist?

Please read them.

Absolutely. You're creating a framework that would absolve literacy tests of the past of their racist intent. Laws can absolutely lead to racist outcomes when they make no mention of race to begin it. The stance you're taking completely ignores the impacts of a law when dissecting it. The outcome of a law is arguably the most important part.

Personally, I don't understand why everyone has their tits in a fit about racism.

It’s almost as if Republicans understand what really ruffles the feathers of Democrats so wrongly, and include aspects that can be construed as racist to divert from the real threat these laws present: targeting the underlying laws and legislature to make determinations about the vote more obscure in legal discretion, and making it easier to hand the results of an election into the hands of partisans when it doesn’t go their way.

To the former point:

“When Texas Republicans scrambled to pass a massive voter suppression bill over Memorial Day weekend, they included a provision written behind closed doors with no public scrutiny that would make it easier for judges to throw out election results. Under the plan, losing candidates would no longer have to prove that individual fraudulent votes swung the election but rather that the number of allegedly fraudulent votes exceeded the margin of victory—which is exactly what Trump falsely alleged in 2020. The measure would also lower the burden of proof needed to demonstrate illegal voting, so that candidates only have to show a “preponderance of evidence” instead of “clear and convincing evidence.”

“They could use this to overthrow the voice of the people,” Democratic state Rep. John Bucy III said on the House floor. “We no longer have to prove voter fraud to overthrow an election result, we can simply do it.” Though the bill failed to pass when House Democrats staged a dramatic walkout, denying Republicans the quorum needed to approve it, it is expected to be resurrected at a special legislative session later this year.”

And the latter:

“Other GOP-controlled states have already changed their laws to make it easier to void election results. As part of its sweeping voter suppression law, Georgia’s heavily gerrymandered legislature removed Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger as the chair and a voting member of the state election board after he rebuffed Trump’s attempt to overturn Joe Biden’s victory. The legislature will now appoint a majority of board members, and the board, in turn, can take over up to four county election boards it deems “underperforming”—raising the prospect that Republicans could assume control of election operations in heavily Democratic areas like Atlanta’s Fulton County. In concert with a provision allowing right-wing groups to mount an unlimited number of challenges to voter eligibility, these changes will make it easier for Republicans to contest close elections and possibly overturn the results.”

Yet everyone is screaming “Racism! Racism! Racism!”.

I honestly don’t give a shit about voter ID. In my view, if you really want to vote, you will make damn sure your affairs are in order prior, and you have MONTHS to do so. If the Democrats are really going to get their panties in a twist over what amounts to methods to make it more difficult to vote, and let their emotions stemming from perceived bigotry rule their concerns of protecting electoral integrity, their priorities are fucked. But when you say,

“I don’t believe that is true, hence I see no voting rights being taken away from anyone.”

Even if it’s not true, you still don’t see voter rights being placed in danger AFTER an election has been done? I do, this is my main fear. To hell with racism, as far as I see it there are far graver threats in these proposed election laws that stand to affect every vote cast, regardless of color.

@MirkoS77: We know the GOP is trying to steal 2024. The USA is turning into a fascist one party state.

@girlusocrazy: Nobody went broke betting on human stupidity.

Yet people seem to be laser focused on racism instead, which appears to be the main crux of the opposition to apparition.

Not to belittle it, but in terms of the disenfranchisement of voters, Republicans are painting in much broader strokes to disenfranchise everyone who doesn’t vote their way, not just minorities.

Why is that not the greater concern? Making it harder for blacks etc to vote in our elections, if true, is entirely rendered moot when Republicans are moving to invalidate everyone’s vote after it.

You are absolutely delusional and brainwashed beyond belief... It's almost impressive how good of a job these people have done.

Voter ID is very important and needs to be a staple to ensure legality of voting. Without voter ID no amount of recounts or audits is going to change the original outcome. This helps both sides by enabling the fact that elections can not be rigged. It doesn't suppress voting and it isn't racist blah blah blah. Those are just a bunch of talking heads putting uncertainty in the air for a bunch of morons who drink the koolaid.

You need an ID card to prove your own identity for hundreds of things including recreational, wavers, documents, legal, adult entertainment, flight, travel, leasing, buying, selling, trading, driving, lodging, renting, firearm ownership, military, social security, retirement, non disclosure agreements, banking, online purchases, credit cards, government buildings/property, fishing, hunting, if you get pulled over, to get insurance, to get a loan, etc. etc. I could make a list a mile long, but when it comes to voting for state officials and the leader of the free world? Nope.. no need at all. Worried about fraud? Too damn bad.. the fact checkers will come by and let you know everything is A ok right? Screw that.

My right to vote as a US citizen has never came to question a single time, nor will it ever, not will yours, or any other legal citizen. They don't want voter ID for obvious reasons. Also, the whole Covid thing is played out.. they are grasping at that and blaming Trump for everything still to this day, but the excuses are running thin even for the gullible people that believed the lies in the first place.

It's all over the news right now (heavily within independent news) that the Russian collusion allegations against Trump were made up by Hillary, Obama, Biden, and other top level officials knew that it was slander and should 100% be treated as treason... But I'm guessing you'll say it's all made up, or the reason why it's false is "insert reason here." They tried to steal the election and also put Trump on a four year witch hunt that heavily hurt his reputation. Add that to the corona virus which just happened to come about at the same time elections were rapidly approaching in the states and civil uprisings were happening all over China and it wasn't then nor now a stretch of the imagination to know what happened. Fauci and other top democratic goons have their hands all over it as well. If the shoe was on the other foot right now hundreds of Republicans would be knee deep in serious allegations right now.

Who wants to shut down social networks? Last I heard Trump wants to make his own.. lol. It isn't about shutting down anything, it's about stopping the one sided propaganda and giving all sides an equal voice. That's what this country stands for. A voice for everyone right? You're not saying that Republicans and anyone with a voice that differs from your own doesn't deserve a say now are you Mr. oh so accepting Democrat? Irony. Now if you're talking about things like critical race theory YES that shit DOES need to be cut out of everything. Oh wait... that's right, it all of a sudden doesn't exist and never did according to the Democrats.. lmao. They truly think they can burn things to the ground and point a finger back when something tiny and 1/1millionth of the magnitude happens on the other side.. now where have I seen this recently? As far as calling it an "insurrection." I'll tell you one thing though, those people pushing that bs haven't seen a damn thing if they keep pushing the people of our country. It's almost as if they WANT a war to break out between the two sides, but who would that benefit and who would want the worlds population to shrink? (Which would also almost inevitably cause WW3) Hmmm... but that's a conversation for another day.

The border is much different today than it ever was before. Biden basically asked them to come here and is now trying to offer $450,000 per illegal alien because they got separated from their kids. Are you kidding me? Yep, that's what happens when you break the law. Parents are separated from their kids every day and for years at a time because of going to jail/prison.. that's kind of what happens when you break the law... and where is all this magical money coming from that will supposedly cost $0 (lmfao) and won't further aid the dumpster fire of inflation we are in? Yeah, that's right, the tax payers.

We have hundreds of thousands of homeless people including veterans in our own country, but yet we offer reparations to illegals who broke the law, have open borders, promises of free education and in many cases housing, no need to pay taxes, and thousands of early in the morning (middle of the night.. whichever you prefer to call it) flights taking thousands of undocumented illegals all over our country and especially into swing counties?

This is what happens... the Democrats know they screwed the pooch so they are in full scramble mode to push through as much bs as possible and get the things they want cemented in place before getting pushed out in the midterms. We'll call it Democratics 101. The exact same thing happened with Obama Care and many other things nobody asked for or wanted.

Back to the border though. We now have more illegal crossings than EVER before. That is fact. What is our country doing? Are they allowing border agents to do their jobs? No. Arresting the illegals? No... so what are they doing? Oh that's right, they are allowing hundreds of thousands into our country illegally. That not only under minds the people, it's also a slap to the face of every legal immigrant that went through the process legally and are proud to be a part of our country and quite possibly citizens themselves now and have full voting privileges.

If our country was such a racist shit hole these people wouldn't be coming here in droves. They themselves say it's an opportunity. I'm not one to shun the idea, and it's hard to even blame them when we have an incompetent puppet at the helm inviting them here and demonizing the men and women of our country that are trying to do their jobs.

Your paragraph "It's difficult having a nuanced discussion with someone that doesn't understand economics, inflation, government's role in it etc. But the pandemic is the reason we have inflation right now. It doesn't matter what party is in power that was a foregone conclusion. Stop looking at issues simplistically."

lol... Wow.. It sure is difficult having a nuanced discussion with someone that doesn't understand economics, inflation, and the governments role. You should study up on that, because you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You are regurgitating the same played out tired lies over and over. If you stopped and actually thought about things for a few minutes you would realize how idiotic it is to believe that all the illegals coming over with different rules and living on tax payers backs isn't a bad thing among MANY other issues right now.

What has Biden done for this country? Name anything.. one good thing.

"Florida and Texas are not standing up for rights. The governor's are vying for power. The only motivator of the GOP now. Not public service. They aren't interested in you." Man are you really that lost?

You name two of the only states standing up for their people and saying enough is enough. Vying for power.. lmao. If they were so wrong they would be failing miserably right? Give me a break. People are standing behind them because it's our freedom that is at stake here. It's ridiculous how far people in power have to go before some of the lesser minded start to catch on. They strip a freedom here and there until we are accepting, then one day we try to open the door and it's locked tight.

"The programs the Democrats want to create are for Americans. But the propaganda has radicalized so deeply that people are willing to go against their own self interest because they have a grade school understanding of the issues."

I guess that's better than having no understanding of the issues at all with people like you. You'd rather see everything go up in flames and depend on the government rather than trusting in human decency and compassion. What you see on liberal news isn't and never was the truth. In real life people of all races, color, and age come together in times of need... but why is it that you almost never see or hear anything about that from the Democratic side, but you constantly here made up racism, and false allegations? Gee.. that's a mystery I tell ya. Confliction brings them growth and conviction makes them broke. Lying, forcing non issues, and keeping the people fighting is the entire Democratic plan.

Use your head. I'm sure you are capable of critical thinking.. stop letting others think for you. Open your eyes, ears, and mind. Stop being a puppet. Socialism and more government power is a recipe for disaster and stands against everything our nation was built on and in the heart of the people and the soul of our nation. From our founding fathers to our veterans and those who serve this country every day. We will never be controlled by corporations, social media, white knighting, shaming, guilting, race theory, and any other amount of bs the people you follow and worship throw at us. They will lose. At this point the question is more of which side you stand on, because things are coming to a boiling point. We are closer to another civil war or WW3 than we are to bowing down to deep state.

Funny how you parrot the false narrative of fake news and call it out on the other side. Like I said, most of your political posts are so full or irony you could swim in it.

Most people have to present a form of ID every day.

Just because you are in the vocal minority doesn't mean you're in the majority. That is something you would do well to learn.

That is their only discourse to any argument or debate. Blame everything on racism, climate, sexism, or any other ism or phobia they can find.

There is nothing racist about voter ID, just like there is nothing racist about presenting ID to buy a six pack or spin the slots.

It is not difficult to obtain legal documentation to cast a legal vote. No amount of digging through thousands of pages of documents or adding thousands of pages to the bill (which Democrats love doing) will change that fact. It isn't racist. Prove who you are through legal documentation and then vote. If you have the means to vote then you have the means to prove who you are or you likely wouldn't give a shit in the first place.

Trying to equate ID's to racism is a scramble to help ensure it never happens. However, it will happen. The question is when.

@WitIsWisdom: I'm not ready your victimization rant. I saw your first sentence with started off with an ad hominem attack and then launched into some lies. When you can discuss things as an adult and with childish insults, when you can understand complex issues and not boil them down to far right talking points with no understanding of the many issues in these bills being passed come back. Until them I'm not interested in anything you have to say.

Please show me where I played a victim... I'll wait.. but in the meantime

imagine this, a liberal pretending everything is a personal attack and directly related to them and only them... lol. Yet it's perfectly fine for them to say whatever they like.. talk about egocentrism. That is why they have people like you in their back pocket, they teach you to hate us and never agree with anything we say at any and all cost... they play to your senses instead of keeping things straight forward, orderly, and efficient.

If that's not the pot calling the kettle black. Do me a favor and save the victim routine by trying to point the finger back at me.. lol. God.. you really are a good at being a Democrat, I give you that much.

You say shit like this: "Yet that's okay because you only want your voice heard. You are not patriotic. You do not adhere to the Constitution. You do not follow the government set up by the founders", and that is perfectly fine, but when I fire back it's straight into victim hood claiming you took the moral high ground which is complete bs.

You don't know me, what I stand for, what I've done, the places I've been, or what I would do for this country a 2nd time if they ever needed me again, so don't pretend you know me or the sacrifices I have made so that people like you can continue to spout ignorance into the abyss and tear this country apart.

It's ok to burn down half a city block (figuratively this time) and there's nothing to see, but when someone pokes back they are enemy number one using micro aggressions, ad hominem, racism, sexism, etc.. lmao. Give me a break.

Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't make what I'm saying lies. You are perfectly summing up what I wrote perfectly by doing what you just did.

Two wrongs don't make a right, so I am sorry if anything I said felt like a personal attack. However, I must also say that regardless of how you feel about me right now, don't ever get that twisted with my intentions and love for my country because your personal beliefs conflict with those of my own.

You can trust me when I say none of this is about you, it's about the collective sum of the parts with people that think they are helping by tearing things down for the sake of feeling good about themselves and the sheep following the wolves straight back to the flock because of a promise of a better tomorrow.. but nothing ever changes except for things getting worse.

Either way, I really am done this time. It's been interesting albeit not very entertaining.

@WitIsWisdom: I like how you did what he said you would do.

@MirkoS77: It's not specifically racism I have my tits in a fit about, it's also "White supremacy", "Bigotry", "white fragility", "microagressions" and pretty much every term that has either been made up, or re-purposed with a shiny new definition. You could call this language inflation, or term inflation, whatever.

Let's take "racism" for example. Prior to social media, there was virtually zero disagreement on what racism actually was. Any time you treat someone differently because of their race, and not other factors, that's racism. Not "any time an outcome happens that is inequal among racial lines", like some are defining it as now.

When we inflate terms in our language in this fashion, not only do these words lose some of their bite, but we also damage our ability to even have a debate. If we can't agree on definitions, how are we supposed to debate them in any sort of productive manner? Especially when someone who isn't onboard with these new definitions attempts to join the debate. They are instantly labelled racist, ___phobe, bigot, whatever.

Example:

Some in this thread have made the claim, that harsher sentencing for Crack Cocaine vs powder form = racist.

I disagree, but let's say for the sake of argument I agree that it's racist.

Ok, so that law was racist. Now what do we call the law that forced Black people sit at the back of the bus? Extra racist? Super racist? ultra/hyper racist? Rxcist?

Oh wait. That was the point wasnt it? By re-defining terms in such a way, one can label a whole slew of people who aren't actually any of those things, and shame them into compliance!

Except it is now having the opposite effect. Instead of everyone being shamed into compliance, all that has happened, is terms like Racism, bigotry, and white supremacy, which SHOULD be considered deadly serious, and not leveled at someone without serious proof, have lost almost all of their stigma. It's the sad story of the boy who cried wolf.

It's quite possible for there to be more than one racist law. And one shouldn't quibble about degree. If a law is applied and unfavorably affects a specific race, it's racist.

@LJS9502_basic: Yes, I understand that you truly believe that. But only because you have internalized an alternate definition of racism that I, and many others have not.

No I haven't. But I'm getting bad vibes from you about your opinion on minorities reading this thread. If you create a law to harm a specific race, that's racism. If you make laws easier on one race but not others, that's racism. Hence the difference in cocaine and crack the other individual used. Should actually be the same consequences.

It's not debatable. We have documentation from the horse's mouth proving it. The only reason conservatives are arguing against something written so clearly in black and white is that it's so disgusting and socially unacceptable in modern society they have no choice but to look you in the eye and say, "suppressing the rights of minorities isn't actually racist because you don't know why they did it."

We're currently focused on it since it was brought up as a point for discussion. I don't think we, or at least myself, are saying that it's a bigger deal than what you're describing. In fact I'd probably agree that over turning election results via a rigged legislative process is a nearer and bigger threat. I actually believe we were very close to such a thing happening in 2020 if it were not for a few select individuals. Both of these can be problems in their own right when viewing the grander picture, which is that the GOP is currently using every trick up their sleeve to retain power, whether through voter suppression or election tampering.

It's really that simple. We have in our possession the literal GOP playbook which specifically comments on race with respect to multiple measures of marginalizing voter bases. At this point it's willful ignorance.

@girlusocrazy: People still deny that the Earth is round. Many of the same people denying the proof in the Hofeller files deny global warming and evolution.

Denial itself isn't evidence to the contrary.

Just to preface, I define racism at its most basic level as: prejudice towards an individual/group predicated solely upon their race, and/or discriminating upon such basis.

I hear the point, but this ‘watering down‘ argument can just as easily be utilized in the excusing of racism as in the overuse and unwarranted usage of it. As racism is generally viewed as so socially unacceptable, it’s rarely ever explicit. It’s usually always hidden in subtlety, nuance, implication, insinuation, and passive aggressiveness. Rarely directly spoken, always dog whistled, in the subtext, elbow-nudged, and (I’m not saying you are doing this) typically always excused or disregarded by the exact same argument you are making, or some variation thereof. I find it to little surprise so many are chomping at the bit to immediately leap to such conclusions given the way racism has been forced to manifest itself in modern society. People water down the term racism in its accusation because the manner of its propagation has been watered down to be able to operate and still exist within a society that is attempting to constantly revile and ostracize it. How is it possible to call out racism in its fullest potency when it doesn’t present itself that way?

It amuses me when I hear this argument about these terms being pulled more and more into the realm of ambiguity and the arbitrary, and hence are losing their power. As if we shouldn’t even humor or proclaim racist intent unless there’s a flashing sign hanging around the neck. Unfortunately, that’s not how racism works in its practical manifestations. I honestly don’t see how we could ever address (much less combat) racism if we are to be so beholdened to such stringent definitions and examples that are almost never compatible with how it exists in the real world.

at the end of the day. this laws and others are getting bad for everyone.

hell fl thinks it has better laws then osha does!

they want to leave them.... jesus.

Most racism we see these days in the west are INDIRECT forms of racism.

This is because politicians use various graphs to put up restrictive voting laws. Voting is a zero sum game, if a law hurts their opposition more than it hurts themselves. Then it can be considered a win. High ranking republicans, even the supreme court have admitted that some of these laws have been designed around targetting certain racial demographics. To deny it is to be either ignorant or delusional.

Why not direct? Well, because that is specifically unconstitutional, and can very easily be shot down, there is also the matter of plausible deniability. The racists are as racist as ever, they just try to hide it, albeit rather poorly. Voter-ID laws is nothing more than Racial Voting Discrimination in a cheap tuxedo.

@girlusocrazy:

@MirkoS77: Thanks to both of you for being reasonable.

I'm fully onboard with calling the re-districting above unethical, scummy, dishonest, whatever. In fact, why aren't we more mad about the clearly unethical behavior, rather than the particular criteria used to engage in said unethical behavior?

The reason I made the "calling a spade a shovel" comment can be explained with an example:

Let's say I'm picking players for a game of basketball, from a mix of White and Black people. Here are two scenarios:

I pick only Black people for my team because they are Black, and I have a prejudice that says Black people are better at Basketball. This is racist. (spade)

I pick the tallest players (who are also Black) for my team, because I think being tall confers an advantage. = Not racist (shovel)

In this scenario, the end result is clearly the same regardless. Which, if we are going by the "any unequal outcome on the basis of race = racist" definition, would be racist. This is what I disagree with.

Why do I care so much? Because I'm an extreme pedant. We exist. And in the same way some people experience existential dread in thinking of say... Trump being elected again, I experience existential dread, watching fellow citizens stretch and bend definitions in such a way that we can't even have a civil debate any more, because of disagreement on basic definitions.

Because I have a pretty good idea where this will lead, if civil discourse continues to degrade in this fashion.

@girlusocrazy:

What can be agreed on by all however is that the policies implemented are messing with fundamentals of democracy, without identifying a specific problem nor explaining how the policies work to solve specific problems. Also that 4 years had passed when a policy focus could be on election security, but the motivation for activity happened after a loss. Unfortunately some are not scrutinizing officials that are messing with democracy in this context and prefer to wear horse blinders.

So much this. The fact that democracy is clearly being meddled with is the problematic part.

Well said!