@Gatygun: How did the Democrats meddle with anything? Trump has been.
Dictator Donald doesn't want to step down if he loses
@SUD123456 said:
@mattbbpl said:
@eoten said:
@horgen said:
@eoten: How is it illegal for Bloomberg to pay those fines?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/597
Whoever makes or offers to make an expenditure to any person, either to vote or withhold his vote, or to vote for or against any candidate; and
Whoever solicits, accepts, or receives any such expenditure in consideration of his vote or the withholding of his vote—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if the violation was willful, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
That is a stretch. That's written to be an anti-bribery law, not something to prevent clearing roadblocks for voting.
I see this is going to court, so it will be interesting to see how it's ruled. That would have implications for things like paying someone's voter ID fees in the states that require a photo ID to vote.
I doubt this is a problem as the expenditure isn't being made to the voter, nor is it being made to another person who could be construed to be a surrogate for that person. In other words, there is no direct financial benefit. The benefit is restoration of a constitutional right....that's it, that's all. And once restored the person can exercise that right in any manner they want or not exercise it at all.
As long as it is blanket/universal availability with no screening other than say, first come, first served, there won't be a problem. I also reject the Republican response that this is equal to paying off debt. There is no debt obligation. These people can literally go through the rest of their lives with never paying a cent if they want to, so there is no opportunity cost benefit.
Finally, using the photo ID example it seems quite clear that simple payment is insufficient evidence. Otherwise, many a parent that pays for their 18 yr old to get proper ID is going to be in jeopardy, which is obviously absurd.
The expenditure is being made to the voter. When you are paying off someones fees or financial obligations, that's considered by virtually every precedent and a number of laws to be considered an expenditure to that individual. And when you have Bloomberg admitting he's not doing it for every felon, just select felons likely to be Biden supporters, yeah, he's buying votes.
The Russian's will ensure no matter what, the election results are covered with a cloud of doubt.
The continue to be extremely effective at dividing the nation further.
@thegreatchomp said:
@Gatygun: How did the Democrats meddle with anything? Trump has been.
Democrats are pushing for change in a voting system that always worked since forever. But for what reason? for better results for themselves and destabilizing outcomes while they are at it. There is absolute no reason for them to do it otherwise.
They could have just not done it and actually sell a better story to the public and get votes this way much like what trump has done in 2016 when he went up to the most hated and disliked person on the planet earth which even made liberals most likely vote for trump and got him the win at the end even while everybody and there mom was shitting down his throat endlessly through media.
Look biden is a good choice for presidency if he has a better story to tell ( basically had the obama brain ) and can keep his stoiry straight simple and easy to understand. The only thing he needs to do is distance himself from the radicals, specficially the radial left and start to talk about progress in the country and markets moving forwards. Instead he addresses nothing, he advocates for nothing and falls straight into the left wing extremist hands and messes up his speech and points 24/7 while evading all questions from the public.
It's a pathetic showcase and again a extremely weak candidate that doesn't got his story straight.
Democrats should have selected obama's wife " forget her name ". She's perfect for the job but for some reason probably after experiencing the nutshow that is politics probably wants to distance herself further than the sun away from it. Still i could see her run in 2024.
@Gatygun said:
If democrats wanted a fair fight, they should have never meddled with the voting system which can also favor the outer party. Something they probably never thought about.
That was medical expert recommendations, that people vote by mail.
It's safer, and actually has less fraud cases than in person voting....
@Gatygun: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-integrity-2020-count/index.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/3372658001
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/naacp-president-says-republicans-could-steal-2020-election-2020-8%3famp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2020/09/conservatives-trump-must-steal-election-block-biden-plot.html
Maybe look into what Republicans are doing. They are going into overdrive to try and steal this election. I could find countless more.
@eoten said:
@SUD123456 said:
@mattbbpl said:
@eoten said:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/597
Whoever makes or offers to make an expenditure to any person, either to vote or withhold his vote, or to vote for or against any candidate; and
Whoever solicits, accepts, or receives any such expenditure in consideration of his vote or the withholding of his vote—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if the violation was willful, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
That is a stretch. That's written to be an anti-bribery law, not something to prevent clearing roadblocks for voting.
I see this is going to court, so it will be interesting to see how it's ruled. That would have implications for things like paying someone's voter ID fees in the states that require a photo ID to vote.
I doubt this is a problem as the expenditure isn't being made to the voter, nor is it being made to another person who could be construed to be a surrogate for that person. In other words, there is no direct financial benefit. The benefit is restoration of a constitutional right....that's it, that's all. And once restored the person can exercise that right in any manner they want or not exercise it at all.
As long as it is blanket/universal availability with no screening other than say, first come, first served, there won't be a problem. I also reject the Republican response that this is equal to paying off debt. There is no debt obligation. These people can literally go through the rest of their lives with never paying a cent if they want to, so there is no opportunity cost benefit.
Finally, using the photo ID example it seems quite clear that simple payment is insufficient evidence. Otherwise, many a parent that pays for their 18 yr old to get proper ID is going to be in jeopardy, which is obviously absurd.
The expenditure is being made to the voter. When you are paying off someones fees or financial obligations, that's considered by virtually every precedent and a number of laws to be considered an expenditure to that individual. And when you have Bloomberg admitting he's not doing it for every felon, just select felons likely to be Biden supporters, yeah, he's buying votes.
Matt and Sud are correct. It's why there won't be charges or indictments against Bloomberg.
Arm-Chair law is fun on the internet, doesn't work so well in real life.
You've gotta' get over your phobia of allowing people to vote appearing as cheating due to your party's lower popularity. Facts > *
@zaryia said:
@eoten said:
Studies have been done by both the left and right (including the Trump administration). Voter fraud is almost non existent
Here I'll post them this time, just to rub it in.
Report: Trump commission did not find widespread voter fraud
The Myth of Voter Fraud
Low rates of fraud in vote-by-mail states show the benefits outweigh the risks
Minuscule number of potentially fraudulent ballots in states with universal mail voting undercuts Trump claims about election risks
Several studies: https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/analysis/Briefing_Memo_Debunking_Voter_Fraud_Myth.pd
Either way, you're going to have to prove mass voter fraud in 2020. Not post blogs, I mean actual proof. Something you guys lied about and could not prove in 2016.
Multiple states, all with Democrat governors have signed laws allowing ballots to be accepted and harvested 9 days after the end of the election on November 3rd. Add this to buying votes, ballot harvesting in general, unsolicited mail in ballots. This upcoming election will be anything but normal, or honest. No doubt it'll come down to the Supreme Court.
Here is another interesting story of more ballot fraud using mail in ballots in 2018
https://www.news-journal.com/news/police/gregg-county-pct-4-commissioner-others-arrested-in-vote-harvesting-scheme/article_2d8d0a28-fea5-11ea-82ac-7b6f75954634.html#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Both sides are going to try anything they can in this next election. It is just going to be a huge CF mark my words.
@Xabiss said:
Here is another interesting story of more ballot fraud using mail in ballots in 2018
https://www.news-journal.com/news/police/gregg-county-pct-4-commissioner-others-arrested-in-vote-harvesting-scheme/article_2d8d0a28-fea5-11ea-82ac-7b6f75954634.html#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Both sides are going to try anything they can in this next election. It is just going to be a huge CF mark my words.
It's going to be a practical nothing burger.
It's going to be a theatrical CF because people want it to be.
@super600 said:
@eoten:
How is trump going to overturn a 130+EV loss via the supreme court. They will just laugh at him if he tried to overturn the election loss.
Lmfao at that. You can't even get anyone to vote for Biden because they actually want Biden. All he can get are people to vote for him because he's not Trump, and that isn't going to be enough. If the Biden camp wasn't scared shitless there wouldn't be such large scale efforts to promote ballot harvesting, states passing laws allowing people to vote days after the polls end, or billionaires buying votes in states like Florida.
@mrbojangles25 said:
@Xabiss said:
Here is another interesting story of more ballot fraud using mail in ballots in 2018
https://www.news-journal.com/news/police/gregg-county-pct-4-commissioner-others-arrested-in-vote-harvesting-scheme/article_2d8d0a28-fea5-11ea-82ac-7b6f75954634.html#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Both sides are going to try anything they can in this next election. It is just going to be a huge CF mark my words.
It's going to be a practical nothing burger.
It's going to be a theatrical CF because people want it to be.
Yup.
Meanwhile in my state and 13 others no document or ID is required to vote in person at all.
@pyro1245 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:
@Xabiss said:
Here is another interesting story of more ballot fraud using mail in ballots in 2018
https://www.news-journal.com/news/police/gregg-county-pct-4-commissioner-others-arrested-in-vote-harvesting-scheme/article_2d8d0a28-fea5-11ea-82ac-7b6f75954634.html#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Both sides are going to try anything they can in this next election. It is just going to be a huge CF mark my words.
It's going to be a practical nothing burger.
It's going to be a theatrical CF because people want it to be.
Yup.
Meanwhile in my state and 13 others no document or ID is required to vote in person at all.
I think the US is the only country, or one of the few where it's even possible to vote without identification. Does anyone know of any others? Canada requires it, France does, Germany does, everyone's favorite, Norway, requires a photo ID or passport. But in the US it's supposedly racist.
@zaryia said:
@eoten said:
Unsolicited mail-in ballots, same day voter registration, hundreds of thousands of dead people still registered across the country, Michael Bloomberg spending millions to pay off felon's fees so that they can vote (highly illegal btw), Lebron James spending millions of dollars to do the same as well as funding a drive to recruit poll workers (honest ones? lmao, of course not). What's the worse that could happen? Lmao.
Studies have been done by both the left and right (including the Trump administration). Voter fraud is almost non existent from all those things you listed. Especially in the GE. You just want less people voting because that statistically helps the less popular party.
You don't want these things because it helps your chances when less people vote. We know you don't care about that .01% Fraud rate. The alternative is that you're extremely misinformed. As usual you are often proven easily wrong:
Election Day voter registration poses ‘very little risk’ for fraud, audit finds
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2019/9/18/20872266/election-day-voter-registration-little-risk-for-voter-fraud-audit-finds
How about.....just make your party more popular? I understand the policies you liked are unpopular and don't work (Red States/Counties have a much lower HDI), but come on. There has to be a way to make your party continue to gain ground without stopping people from voting or gerrymandering. Brainstorm on it.
America can't even get legally eligible voters to vote. Voter fraud isn't the problem.
@eoten said:
@pyro1245 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:
@Xabiss said:
Here is another interesting story of more ballot fraud using mail in ballots in 2018
https://www.news-journal.com/news/police/gregg-county-pct-4-commissioner-others-arrested-in-vote-harvesting-scheme/article_2d8d0a28-fea5-11ea-82ac-7b6f75954634.html#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Both sides are going to try anything they can in this next election. It is just going to be a huge CF mark my words.
It's going to be a practical nothing burger.
It's going to be a theatrical CF because people want it to be.
Yup.
Meanwhile in my state and 13 others no document or ID is required to vote in person at all.
I think the US is the only country, or one of the few where it's even possible to vote without identification. Does anyone know of any others? Canada requires it, France does, Germany does, everyone's favorite, Norway, requires a photo ID or passport. But in the US it's supposedly racist.
There was a study showing that it was racist and would negatively impact the election.
But it was later shot down by another study. Showing that the first study was practically overblown.
You have to realize though that the context for these other countries is different. Yes, they have voter ID laws, but at the same time, they also have a lot of other means to make voting easier. Voter ID laws on their own without other ways to make voting more accessible could be seen as an attempt of voter suppression. I dont entirely agree with that notion, but Voter Fraud is such a nothing burger, that the voter disenfranchisement could end up doing more harm than the good it would do.
My ideal electoral reform would include stuff like
- Voter ID
- Automatic Voter Registration for every citizen and every foreign citizen who has lived in the US for consecutive 3 years.
- Elections are a national holiday
- Vote By Mail being more accessible.
- More polling stations, to stop long queues
- Make it extremely accessible to a voting ID (this can include a drivers license, national security card, library card, university card, gun owner card, ect)
Basically, my country albeit with some adjustments for the US.
@eoten said:
@thegreatchomp said:
@jeezers: Switch Democrats with Trump and you got it. Biden’s chances look good right now, so Trump is trying to delegitimize the election before it happens.
Trump isn't the one who came up with the stupid idea of mailing everyone a ballot and having anything but a normal, consistent election cycle.
if trump hadn't bungled the covid response, perhaps we could have a normal election...
@Maroxad said:
@eoten said:
@pyro1245 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:
@Xabiss said:
Here is another interesting story of more ballot fraud using mail in ballots in 2018
https://www.news-journal.com/news/police/gregg-county-pct-4-commissioner-others-arrested-in-vote-harvesting-scheme/article_2d8d0a28-fea5-11ea-82ac-7b6f75954634.html#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Both sides are going to try anything they can in this next election. It is just going to be a huge CF mark my words.
It's going to be a practical nothing burger.
It's going to be a theatrical CF because people want it to be.
Yup.
Meanwhile in my state and 13 others no document or ID is required to vote in person at all.
I think the US is the only country, or one of the few where it's even possible to vote without identification. Does anyone know of any others? Canada requires it, France does, Germany does, everyone's favorite, Norway, requires a photo ID or passport. But in the US it's supposedly racist.
There was a study showing that it was racist and would negatively impact the election.
But it was later shot down by another study. Showing that the first study was practically overblown.
You have to realize though that the context for these other countries is different. Yes, they have voter ID laws, but at the same time, they also have a lot of other means to make voting easier. Voter ID laws on their own without other ways to make voting more accessible could be seen as an attempt of voter suppression. I dont entirely agree with that notion, but Voter Fraud is such a nothing burger, that the voter disenfranchisement could end up doing more harm than the good it would do.
My ideal electoral reform would include stuff like
- Voter ID
- Automatic Voter Registration for every citizen and every foreign citizen who has lived in the US for consecutive 3 years.
- Elections are a national holiday
- Vote By Mail being more accessible.
- More polling stations, to stop long queues
- Make it extremely accessible to a voting ID (this can include a drivers license, national security card, library card, university card, gun owner card, ect)
Basically, my country albeit with some adjustments for the US.
That all sounds great. Problem is, it makes way too much sense for the US to get behind it. It's too fair to everyone.
@comp_atkins said:
@eoten said:
@thegreatchomp said:
@jeezers: Switch Democrats with Trump and you got it. Biden’s chances look good right now, so Trump is trying to delegitimize the election before it happens.
Trump isn't the one who came up with the stupid idea of mailing everyone a ballot and having anything but a normal, consistent election cycle.
if trump hadn't bungled the covid response, perhaps we could have a normal election...
Really? You're going with that excuse? Because last I checked Trumped left it up to the states to handle, and certain states decided to put covid positive patients back into high risk nursing home, those states, NY for example has the highest death rate worldwide. Saying it's Trumps fault Andrew Cuomo was such a ****-up we need to have mail in voting is ridiculous, and fails all logic to arrive at that conclusion from the evidence. And it's already been proven that in-person voting is unsafe at all. Dems are merely using it as an excuse to implement ballot harvesting to give themselves a better chance at winning.
Hearing hyperbolic "fascist" or "dictator" always provide a sensible chuckle towards American leadership. It wouldn't be prudent to extend a righteous keyboard warrior to visit, or rather reside, in an actual despot nation - think Sudan, Burma, North Korea, etc - because the common motifs of the high-horse mantra would get that warrior killed for less. But a las, I understand the need to indulge oneself amidst the very one-dimensional extremes, as reaching every day through infinite doom-scroll Tweets/blurbs definitely will create an obvious dusk.
@eoten said:
Yup, honest and fair elections. No shenanigans.
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/us-attorney-battleground-pennsylvania-investigating-023800972.html
ROFL Seven, and not confirmed as fraud or criminal yet either.
And even then, that number (if it's confirmed) correlates with the studies I posted showing how miniscule this is. Not wide spread or even a fraction of widespread. A fart in the wind. Imagine getting mad at millions of people for legally voting due to a less than .01% fraud rate that has been deemed as non problematic for decades.
@mattbbpl said:
@Stevo_the_gamer: Good point, we're not as bad as Sudan or North Korea. You've cleared the lowest of bars, congratulations.
Clearest examples to drive the stake.
@eoten said:
@comp_atkins said:
@eoten said:
@thegreatchomp said:
@jeezers: Switch Democrats with Trump and you got it. Biden’s chances look good right now, so Trump is trying to delegitimize the election before it happens.
Trump isn't the one who came up with the stupid idea of mailing everyone a ballot and having anything but a normal, consistent election cycle.
if trump hadn't bungled the covid response, perhaps we could have a normal election...
Really? You're going with that excuse? Because last I checked Trumped left it up to the states to handle, and certain states decided to put covid positive patients back into high risk nursing home, those states, NY for example has the highest death rate worldwide. Saying it's Trumps fault Andrew Cuomo was such a ****-up we need to have mail in voting is ridiculous, and fails all logic to arrive at that conclusion from the evidence. And it's already been proven that in-person voting is unsafe at all. Dems are merely using it as an excuse to implement ballot harvesting to give themselves a better chance at winning.
if trump hadn't BUNGLED the covid response, perhaps we could have a normal election.
act like a normal president, get a normal election. you guys crack me up. you jizz your pants over a president who will defy the norms and now that you've got one, OH NOES! WE CAN'T DEFY TEH NORMS!!!$%^%^$$$%!!!
YOU GUYS voted for stupid. stupid is what we got.
@zaryia said:
@eoten said:
Yup, honest and fair elections. No shenanigans.
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/us-attorney-battleground-pennsylvania-investigating-023800972.html
ROFL Seven, and not confirmed as fraud or criminal yet either.
And even then, that number (if it's confirmed) correlates with the studies I posted showing how miniscule this is. Not wide spread or even a fraction of widespread. A fart in the wind. Imagine getting mad at millions of people for legally voting due to a less than .01% fraud rate that has been deemed as non problematic for decades.
I see this argument from people claiming there is no reason to worry about voter fraud. They stick to key words like "wide spread". Like you will show people the case in NJ where they literally had to redo the entire election due to voter fraud, but still. That's not "widespread".
So Zaryia, you agree voter fraud happens, but you don't care because its not "widespread".
What's the amount of voter fraud, thrown out ballots, or missing ballots, needed for you to care about it, or worry about it?
Do you not remember Bush vs Gore in Florida? that decision came down to a mere couple hundred votes...
| George Walker Bush– Richard Bruce Cheney | 2,912,790 | 48.847% | Republican |
| Albert Arnold Gore Jr.– Joseph Isadore Lieberman | 2,912,253 | 48.838% | Democratic |
Can you define "widespread"? Seriously what's the number of fraudulent activity in the election process needed for it to matter?
@jeezers: Try starting by proving it does happen. He is just saying it’s not as big a deal as Trump and his followers are crying that it is. Get on his level:
@jeezers said:
I see this argument from people claiming there is no reason to worry about voter fraud. They stick to key words like "wide spread". Like you will show people the case in NJ where they literally had to redo the entire election due to voter fraud, but still. That's not "widespread".
So Zaryia, you agree voter fraud happens, but you don't care because its not "widespread".
What's the amount of voter fraud, thrown out ballots, or missing ballots, needed for you to care about it, or worry about it?
Can you define "widespread"? Seriously what's the number of fraudulent activity in the election process needed for it to matter?
I'm going by the data and experts, not your napkin math and personal opinions. They say the extremely small amount of voter fraud is not worth stopping exponentially more amount of people from voting.
Trump is claiming wide-spread fraud. Voter fraud is not wide spread, and is less than .01%. Single digits at times, which is not wide spread. That doesn't mean it's not an issue. Just not enough of an issue to prevent millions of people (who just HAPPEN to be mostly Democrat voters) from voting to stop those miniscule number of fraudulent cases.
Sorry man, gonna go with the studies over "Jeezers" of Gamespot Forums.
Report: Trump commission did not find widespread voter fraud
The Myth of Voter Fraud
Low rates of fraud in vote-by-mail states show the benefits outweigh the risks
Minuscule number of potentially fraudulent ballots in states with universal mail voting undercuts Trump claims about election risks
Several studies: https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/analysis/Briefing_Memo_Debunking_Voter_Fraud_Myth.pd
FBI has not seen evidence of widespread voter fraud, Director Wray tells senators
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/fbi-has-not-seen-evidence-of-widespread-voter-fraud-director-wray-tells-senators.html
FBI Director Christopher Wray said Thursday that the bureau has not seen evidence of widespread voting fraud, an assertion that undercuts President Donald Trump’s recent warnings.
@comp_atkins said:
@eoten said:
@comp_atkins said:
@eoten said:
Trump isn't the one who came up with the stupid idea of mailing everyone a ballot and having anything but a normal, consistent election cycle.
if trump hadn't bungled the covid response, perhaps we could have a normal election...
Really? You're going with that excuse? Because last I checked Trumped left it up to the states to handle, and certain states decided to put covid positive patients back into high risk nursing home, those states, NY for example has the highest death rate worldwide. Saying it's Trumps fault Andrew Cuomo was such a ****-up we need to have mail in voting is ridiculous, and fails all logic to arrive at that conclusion from the evidence. And it's already been proven that in-person voting is unsafe at all. Dems are merely using it as an excuse to implement ballot harvesting to give themselves a better chance at winning.
if trump hadn't BUNGLED the covid response, perhaps we could have a normal election.
act like a normal president, get a normal election. you guys crack me up. you jizz your pants over a president who will defy the norms and now that you've got one, OH NOES! WE CAN'T DEFY TEH NORMS!!!$%^%^$$$%!!!
YOU GUYS voted for stupid. stupid is what we got.
Yup. Trump voters are something else lol. No wonder they are primarily the anti-maskers. I can't believe he thinks Trump isn't responsible for any of this.
That's some twilight zone level bullshit.
@jeezers said:
@zaryia: What is the magic # where voter fraud counts as widespread? or is "widespread" just an arbitrary keyword being used to deflect that voter fraud is an issue? I want you to define widespread in the context of voter fraud.
Either millions or thousands. Depends on the claim. Which were the figures Trump mentioned each time he was objectively proven wrong. Just like he will be proven wrong for 2020.
Gonna refute those studies btw? Or just stick with you knowing you're wrong?
@jeezers said:
@zaryia: well thats a wide range to define what counts as "wide spread" voter fraud.
Either millions or thousands? Which is it?
What do you mean depending on the claim?
Not Zaryia, but I would say it is worth doing something about when the damage caused by voter fraud isn't outdone by the damage caused by the voter suppression, those measures would do.
@zaryia: If they admit he was responsible or in anyway wrong with what he has done, they would have to admit fault and that their ideological leanings might be wrong. That would cause some self reflection and personal changes.
That will never happen, it’s not that they don’t know or accept Trump sucks. It’s more so stubbornness and the refusal to take personal accountability for any wrong doing in their part. They will burn the whole world down rather than admit fault.
@Maroxad said:
@jeezers said:
@zaryia: well thats a wide range to define what counts as "wide spread" voter fraud.
Either millions or thousands? Which is it?
What do you mean depending on the claim?
Not Zaryia, but I would say it is worth doing something about when the damage caused by voter fraud isn't outdone by the damage caused by the voter suppression, those measures would do.
Yeah but voter suppression is subjective, some count voter ID requirements as suppression, gerrymandering by the left and right, or voter signatures as suppression. I do not. That's way to hard to even measure when people cant even agree on what counts as voter suppression.
Things like voter ID and signatures might be seen as suppression to some but to others its a safeguard to prevent fraud.
Voter fraud is less up to interpretation, ballots just not being counted or thrown out, fake names, dead people or dead cats voting is pretty clean cut id say. Cant really argue about it
@Gatygun said:
@thegreatchomp said:
@Gatygun: How did the Democrats meddle with anything? Trump has been.
Democrats are pushing for change in a voting system that always worked since forever. But for what reason? for better results for themselves and destabilizing outcomes while they are at it. There is absolute no reason for them to do it otherwise.
They could have just not done it and actually sell a better story to the public and get votes this way much like what trump has done in 2016 when he went up to the most hated and disliked person on the planet earth which even made liberals most likely vote for trump and got him the win at the end even while everybody and there mom was shitting down his throat endlessly through media.
Look biden is a good choice for presidency if he has a better story to tell ( basically had the obama brain ) and can keep his stoiry straight simple and easy to understand. The only thing he needs to do is distance himself from the radicals, specficially the radial left and start to talk about progress in the country and markets moving forwards. Instead he addresses nothing, he advocates for nothing and falls straight into the left wing extremist hands and messes up his speech and points 24/7 while evading all questions from the public.
It's a pathetic showcase and again a extremely weak candidate that doesn't got his story straight.
Democrats should have selected obama's wife " forget her name ". She's perfect for the job but for some reason probably after experiencing the nutshow that is politics probably wants to distance herself further than the sun away from it. Still i could see her run in 2024.
Great post, I agree greatly
@jeezers: Ballots not being counted? Like how in Georgia they refused to count thousands of ballots in the Gov race for stupid reasons?
@Gatygun said:
Democrats gave trump a easy way to get out of any infavorable election results simple by blaming the mail in vote system being corrupt and not accepting the outcome because of it.
If democrats wanted a fair fight, they should have never meddled with the voting system which can also favor the outer party. Something they probably never thought about.
Agree with the first part, the dems blatantly make changes to the election process in an election year, that's all the ammo he needs to claim the game was rigged...
the 2nd part in bold is interesting as well, this is something that has crossed my mind. Democrat voters tend to live close to their polling stations because their tend to be a lot more liberals living in Urban areas.
Contrast that to rural areas where people could live 10-20 miles from their polling stations and rural residents tend to lean more conservative. I wonder how many people who live out in the country who don't usually vote will vote for Trump now that the ballot is sent directly to them and they didn't even have to apply for absentee. Its an interesting thing to think about for sure. We have never seen an election ran like this, im sure it will be a shit show either way.
@Gatygun:
“Democrats are pushing for change in a voting system that always worked since forever. But for what reason? for better results for themselves and destabilizing outcomes while they are at it. There is absolute no reason for them to do it otherwise.”
No they are not. Trump is the one attacking mail in voting which has served us well.
“They could have just not done it and actually sell a better story to the public and get votes this way”
They haven’t changed anything
“much like what trump has done in 2016 when he went up to the most hated and disliked person on the planet earth which even made liberals most likely vote for trump and got him the win at the end even while everybody and there mom was shitting down his throat endlessly through media.”
Trump appealed to nationalism and division. Hillary was not the most hated person on earth. And any liberals who hated Hillary either didn’t vote or voted green. Trump won 3 rust belt states while getting less votes than Romney who lost them.
“Look biden is a good choice for presidency if he has a better story to tell ( basically had the obama brain ) and can keep his stoiry straight simple and easy to understand.”
Story to tell? His story is straight and easy to understand.
“The only thing he needs to do is distance himself from the radicals, specficially the radial left and start to talk about progress in the country and markets moving forwards.”
Oh, like he has been while using Kamala to please the left? Like how Obama used Biden to please the right?
“Instead he addresses nothing, he advocates for nothing and falls straight into the left wing extremist hands and messes up his speech and points 24/7 while evading all questions from the public.”
None of this is true. Actually pay attention, he had a clear message. You are just ignoring it.
“It's a pathetic showcase and again a extremely weak candidate that doesn't got his story straight.”
What story? He has been consistent.
“Democrats should have selected obama's wife " forget her name ". She's perfect for the job but for some reason probably after experiencing the nutshow that is politics probably wants to distance herself further than the sun away from it. Still i could see her run in 2024.”
Michelle. And she doesn’t want to run and I don’t blame her.
But seriously I give your post 2/10. Hard to know wtf you are talking about. Democrats have meddled in nothing, it was Trump trying to end mail in voting which has never been a problem and limit polling places. The GOP is taking further actions to limit voting. They are meddling, not the Democrats. Trump wins this needs a long drawn out legal battle as it won’t be legit.
@jeezers said:
@Maroxad said:
@jeezers said:
@zaryia: well thats a wide range to define what counts as "wide spread" voter fraud.
Either millions or thousands? Which is it?
What do you mean depending on the claim?
Not Zaryia, but I would say it is worth doing something about when the damage caused by voter fraud isn't outdone by the damage caused by the voter suppression, those measures would do.
Yeah but voter suppression is subjective, some count voter ID requirements as suppression, gerrymandering by the left and right, or voter signatures as suppression. I do not. That's way to hard to even measure when people cant even agree on what counts as voter suppression.
Things like voter ID and signatures might be seen as suppression to some but to others its a safeguard to prevent fraud.
Voter fraud is less up to interpretation, ballots just not being counted or thrown out, fake names, dead people or dead cats voting is pretty clean cut id say. Cant really argue about it
Voter Suppression is harder to prove, but Republicans have been caught Red Handed passing bills with the intent of stopping people from voting.
One quote in a court ruling stating that one of these voter ID laws "target African-Americans with almost surgical precision".
Also, Voter Turnout is not subjective. And the US Voter Turnout is DISMAL compared to most other democracies out there. At less than 60% of the eligible populaiton showing up to vote. In my country that number is at nearly 90%.
@mrbojangles25 said:
@Maroxad said:
@eoten said:
@pyro1245 said:
Yup.
Meanwhile in my state and 13 others no document or ID is required to vote in person at all.
I think the US is the only country, or one of the few where it's even possible to vote without identification. Does anyone know of any others? Canada requires it, France does, Germany does, everyone's favorite, Norway, requires a photo ID or passport. But in the US it's supposedly racist.
There was a study showing that it was racist and would negatively impact the election.
But it was later shot down by another study. Showing that the first study was practically overblown.
You have to realize though that the context for these other countries is different. Yes, they have voter ID laws, but at the same time, they also have a lot of other means to make voting easier. Voter ID laws on their own without other ways to make voting more accessible could be seen as an attempt of voter suppression. I dont entirely agree with that notion, but Voter Fraud is such a nothing burger, that the voter disenfranchisement could end up doing more harm than the good it would do.
My ideal electoral reform would include stuff like
- Voter ID
- Automatic Voter Registration for every citizen and every foreign citizen who has lived in the US for consecutive 3 years.
- Elections are a national holiday
- Vote By Mail being more accessible.
- More polling stations, to stop long queues
- Make it extremely accessible to a voting ID (this can include a drivers license, national security card, library card, university card, gun owner card, ect)
Basically, my country albeit with some adjustments for the US.
That all sounds great. Problem is, it makes way too much sense for the US to get behind it. It's too fair to everyone.
Of course showing an ID to vote is not raciest. The study was one of the dumbest damn things I have ever read. I didn't even need another study to tell me that.
Requiring an ID to vote is not raciest period and it should be required to vote.
@Xabiss: It can be if the requirements target one group more than others. It also can be if you go around and make it impossible for one group to get that ID or pass it in an election year at a time when they might not be able to get an ID in time.
Anything can be racist, it just depends more on the intent, timing and implementation than the actual policy itself. Asking for an ID to vote is fine, only asking black people to show an ID or make it difficult for them to get one is racist. Policy fine, intent, timing and implementation is racist.
And a drivers license is not a valid ID as the other dude said.
@Maroxad: hey man i never said turnout is subjective, but claiming voter turnout is low because of voter supression is.
Truth is alot of americans dont care to vote, this is usually because they dislike both cannidates. I was one of those people, I didn't vote for obama or mcain or for obama or romney, those were the 2 first elections I could vote, but when it came down to trump or clinton, it was worth it to me to vote Trump.
Alot of people dont like politicians in America, much how people dont like a lawyer or a used car salesman.
Im willing to bet most people who dont vote, its because they dont like the choices they are given, not because they are being "supressed".
I also have little interest in artificially pumping up our voter turnout with people who dont have any interest in voting for either party in the first place.
@jeezers: But they do care. If they didn't they wouldnt go out of their way to vote.
Artificially pumping up the voter turnout would be to impose mandatatory voting on the public.
That said, you are correct in that making voting more accessible alone wont be enough. The US would benefit from having fewer elections overall, streamlining the process. Here in sweden, Parliamentary elections are combined with elections to local and regional governments, while this does mean less checks and balances. It does also mean that people don't vote every tuesday or sunday. (Hyperbole but you get the point).
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